petzval like lens for my 8x10 Bernard

[berserkLuca]

Hello everyboys,
I've bought a very old Bernard 8x10 camera and now I'm searching for an antique portrait lens with no shutter and no aperture, like a Petzval or Dallmeyer.

But I'm having some difficult to understand the great variety of lenses on internet.... I need a minimun 300 mm focal length ( 12" inches correct?) and a lens good for portraiture .. I've saw a Emil Busch telar 550 mm with good price but it's a tele, so with no coverage for the 8x10... do you have suggestions? My budget is not over 400 dollars

Thanks!

Luca

[Two23]

Look for a Wollensak Velostigmat, 300mm/12 inch. Lovely lens and way underpriced for what it does.


Kent in SD

[LabRat]

Try a cheap $2 magnifier lens first...

Steve K

[berserkLuca]

Try a cheap $2 magnifier lens first...

Steve K

sorry I can't understand :confused::confused: why?

[Steven Tribe]

What lab rat is saying is that it is an expensive (and sometimes a deeply frustrating!) path you are about to enter. Perhaps it is better to limit investment - even a simple lens would be a useful learning experience if you are newbie!

400 usd is just under what I would consider the minimum for a recognized 8x10” portrait lens.

[berserkLuca]

hello, excuse me I omitted that anyway I have already available different material that I have been using for about 1 year with even darkroom prints ... medium format, large 4x5 format ... I'm not an expert, but not even a beginner ... or at least I hope so!

my difficulty on the 8x10 format is on the fact that I want to make a small step different from the usual ... so take one of these particular lenses of which, however, I know very little, having always used lenses like schneiders or fujinon ...

I'm already using the rest of the equipment in a "conventional" way, so I want to use the Bernard 8x10 as an exclusive tool for ancient portraiture, with all the difficulties that come with finding such lenses and knowing how to use them correctly.

400 usd is too low? ok, 5-600 usd are a better range? not over I hope!

[Steven Tribe]

Certainly, more interesting lenses are available with that extra amount.

It depends what sources are available to you. If you are restricted to Ebay, the chances of even a reasonable price in a BIN are small, but you can be lucky in an auction. There are still saleroom/web auctions with specialised photographica items - perhaps 5/6 times a year in Europe. And, of course, there are plenty of good sellers ( including me!) who list these sort of items on the For Sale section. Or you could appeal in the Wanted section?

A 12" Petzval is just on the limit of coverage for 8x10, but longer get to be more than 2 kilos. Fast Aplanats ( F6 and less) made by Busch, Suter and Voigtlander (Euryskops) are also excellent portrait lenses - especialy if are going to use modern fast emulsions.

[berserkLuca]

Certainly, more interesting lenses are available with that extra amount.

It depends what sources are available to you. If you are restricted to Ebay, the chances of even a reasonable price in a BIN are small, but you can be lucky in an auction. There are still saleroom/web auctions with specialised photographica items - perhaps 5/6 times a year in Europe. And, of course, there are plenty of good sellers ( including me!) who list these sort of items on the For Sale section. Or you could appeal in the Wanted section?

A 12" Petzval is just on the limit of coverage for 8x10, but longer get to be more than 2 kilos. Fast Aplanats ( F6 and less) made by Busch, Suter and Voigtlander (Euryskops) are also excellent portrait lenses - especialy if are going to use modern fast emulsions.

Many thanks Steven! Can I ask you a typical web auctions for theese items? I'm watching Catawiki and ebay, but I think there are more site.

And if you have some item that could interest me, send me a message!

[Greg]

Look for a Wollensak Velostigmat, 300mm/12 inch. Lovely lens and way underpriced for what it does.


Kent in SD

Agree 100%. A 12" f/4.5 Velostigmat was my first 8x10 lens back in the 1970s. Still have and use one today. Variable softness control by rotating the front element(s) I never got to like. Either shoot wide open or at f/64. It's like carrying 2 different lenses. The Betax shutter only failed me once in the field, but I actually was able to fix it in a few minutes. Have seen many come up for auction at more than reasonable prices. Few years ago replaced my well used, with shutter getting to be unreliable, Velostigmat with one in mint minus condition. Both uncoated, so shooting brightly lit snow scenes in the winter had and has its problems.

[Steven Tribe]

Many thanks Steven! Can I ask you a typical web auctions for theese items? I'm watching Catawiki and ebay, but I think there are more site.

And if you have some item that could interest me, send me a message!

I'll send you PM with some auction ideas. I support the For Sale section here with my own items!

These are available to new members after being here for month!

[berserkLuca]

Interesting! I'm seeing some offer on ebay, but first of all I need to find the right diameter for my Bernard Watchl 18x24...
Here a picture of this camera:

197389

197390

unfortunately I haven't the camera with me now, so I'll wait...

[Steven Tribe]

Oh - another 18x24cm (walnut?) reisekamera! I have lots of these as well the bigger brothers/sisters.
The makes I suggested would be highly appropriate nationalitywise!
Wachtl was a big retailer in Vienna and elsewhere. Very few of these sellers made cameras - they ordered direct from manufacturers, sometimes with special features.

[John Kasaian]

Consider looking for magic lantern lenses on eBay.
I picked up a big old B&L brassie that turned out to be a 15" "pretzel" for about $20

[berserkLuca]

20 dollar??!!! wow!!!

I have the diameter of the Bernard for the lens: 85 mm or about 3,3 inches... so now I need to find a lens that fit

[berserkLuca]

Oh - another 18x24cm (walnut?) reisekamera! I have lots of these as well the bigger brothers/sisters.
The makes I suggested would be highly appropriate nationalitywise!
Wachtl was a big retailer in Vienna and elsewhere. Very few of these sellers made cameras - they ordered direct from manufacturers, sometimes with special features.

yes walnut! I hope it's a good camera.. it have various movements, too much for portraiture but usefull if I'll want to do special out of focus.

[Steven Tribe]

20 dollar??!!! wow!!!

I have the diameter of the Bernard for the lens: 85 mm or about 3,3 inches... so now I need to find a lens that fit

Yes, that is one possibility.

Otherwise, you could make an extra lens board OR just add a wooden patch OR mount a T-P shutter OR cut a slightly larger hole for a larger diameter lens OR mount a universal iris mount OR.....!

[LabRat]

Hey Luca,

I'm not being sarcastic, but I own several soft focus and Petzval lenses that would cost way too much $$$ for me now, but I have had good luck shooting with single element scrap optic lenses that cost little to nothing, and I would try these first before spending a lot on an expensive lens that may or not match your camera or shooting style (if you want a special effect lens)...

A lens from a magnifier (that is the right FL) will have a sharp center, but focus will fall off severely near the edges (which you might like or not)... Since you don't need fancy stuff like a shutter or iris, these are good to try...

If you can find a watch glass (from science), they can make a nice meniscus lens if you are lucky...

Then there are cheap lenses from copiers etc that are in a barrel, some old ones even have an iris, and can be had for $5-$25... Some are very sharp, but sometimes you can remove or flip an element inside for a VERY different effect...

One thing you should do now is measure the bellows extension of the camera to see how far it can stretch out, as that will determine what lenses will work, but also how close the camera will focus for the work you want to do...

That's Steven and Steve's advice...

Steve K

[berserkLuca]

Agree 100%. A 12" f/4.5 Velostigmat was my first 8x10 lens back in the 1970s. Still have and use one today. Variable softness control by rotating the front element(s) I never got to like. Either shoot wide open or at f/64. It's like carrying 2 different lenses. The Betax shutter only failed me once in the field, but I actually was able to fix it in a few minutes. Have seen many come up for auction at more than reasonable prices. Few years ago replaced my well used, with shutter getting to be unreliable, Velostigmat with one in mint minus condition. Both uncoated, so shooting brightly lit snow scenes in the winter had and has its problems.

thank you! I'm seeing for a lens with shutter because I'll use film negative and not wet plate... so I think I'll need shutter for faster speed... On the other hand I'll use Harman's paper whom have a 3-6 of iso speed.

So, resuming:

1. focal length at minimun 300 mm for 8x10 coverage (14" / 360 mm is better)
2. possibly a version with shutter and a fast speed
3. a Velostigmat could be a good choice (is the 14" version better for 8x10??), also Aplanat (but I need to find if there are shutter versions). Petzval could be not the right choice at the moment (high price, no shutter version?)
4. possibly under 600€
5. possibly with lens hood included

In the end, a good lens that can be fit on 4x5 camera if I'll need..
A 12" version would be:

on 4x5 comparable to a 2" / or 60mm focal length on 35mm film
on 8x10 comparable to a 1,6" / or 45mm focal length on 35mm film

On the other hand, a 14" version would be:

on 4x5 comparable to a 3" / or 75mm focal lenght on 35mm film
on 8x10 comparable to a 2" / or 50/60 mm focal length on 35mm film

so I think is better to buy a 14" version , more useful on 4x5 and 8x10 camera for portraiture with good image coverage

Still searching.

Luca

[Two23]

I use the 12 inch Velostigmat on both 4x5 and 5x7, will likely add 8x10 in coming months. This lens is much bigger and heavier than more modern lenses and is really too heavy for my Chamonix 4x5, so now I just use it on the 5x7. If you are going to use an older heavy built camera like a Gundlach Korona etc. with different backs this lens will work fine. Your going to find that once you get into fast lenses longer than 240mm they begin to get heavy. Probably too heavy for a modern 4x5. I'm not sure the Velostigmat came longer than 300mm but if it did it would still be a great choice. For a smaller, lighter lens for portraits on 4x5 I really like a Heliar 210mm or 240mm. These come in Compound shutter but start selling for something like $1,000. I have a set of lenses for my Chamonix 4x5 and another set for the sturdier Gundlach Korona 5x7. Any fast 300mm lens is going to be fairly large and heavy. That's OK if you're using a monorail camera such as Cambo SC or a larger old camera with multiple backs.


Kent in SD

[Steven Tribe]

We must remember where the OP is located - which is Southern Europe. Now there are not enormous quantities of Wollensak lenses as there are in N.America. It means that a purchase will be likely have a surcharge on entry to the EU of about 30%.

[berserkLuca]

another problem..... import fees..... grrrr

for 4x5 camera I already have a schneider 270 mm f 5,6 for my linhof supertechnika (good for set portraits).... so my main need is to lens for 8x10 ... if this lens fit on my linhof 4x5, good ... but this isn't indispensable.

In the end, because I'll use film negative (example delta 100 or panf50 and NOT Wet Plate) and in some case Harman's direct positive paper, a lens without shutter isn't a good choice if I'm right...

I've saw on ebay that there are some versions of Aplanat with shutter, but no one with long focal lenght (over 300mm \ 14" )....

Luca

[Dan Dozer]

Hey Luca,

I'm not being sarcastic, but I own several soft focus and Petzval lenses that would cost way too much $$$ for me now, but I have had good luck shooting with single element scrap optic lenses that cost little to nothing, and I would try these first before spending a lot on an expensive lens that may or not match your camera or shooting style (if you want a special effect lens)...

A lens from a magnifier (that is the right FL) will have a sharp center, but focus will fall off severely near the edges (which you might like or not)... Since you don't need fancy stuff like a shutter or iris, these are good to try...

If you can find a watch glass (from science), they can make a nice meniscus lens if you are lucky...

Then there are cheap lenses from copiers etc that are in a barrel, some old ones even have an iris, and can be had for $5-$25... Some are very sharp, but sometimes you can remove or flip an element inside for a VERY different effect...

One thing you should do now is measure the bellows extension of the camera to see how far it can stretch out, as that will determine what lenses will work, but also how close the camera will focus for the work you want to do...

That's Steven and Steve's advice...

Steve K



I agree with this advice 100 percent. I do a lot of portrait type of work with old petzval lenses. In addition to Steve's advice, looking for an old magic lantern petzval lens is a very affordable option. Note that I shoot with Delta 100 film a lot and you won't have fast shutter speeds normally. Easy to just expose manually uncovering with the lens cap or using the "Galli Shutter approach". Of all my lenses, only one or two have shutters. You might also get a packard shutter which is normally about 1/25th sec.

One of my most successful lenses for 8 x 10 is the front half of an old Ilex Projection lens I got from Jim Galli. Even though the full lens gives an image size of about 4 x 5, using either the front or back half easily covers 8 x 10.

These lenses will give you many different options of softer focus images which can be very nice for portrait work. If you want sharper focus portraits, go with more modern lenses with built in shutters.

Hope this helps.

[Jimi]

You could also look for a LUC or Gitzo shutter to put on the front of the lens - the LUC shutters are made in a few sizes. Like the Packard, they are limited to one speed (1/25 s).

[berserkLuca]

I agree with this advice 100 percent. I do a lot of portrait type of work with old petzval lenses. In addition to Steve's advice, looking for an old magic lantern petzval lens is a very affordable option. Note that I shoot with Delta 100 film a lot and you won't have fast shutter speeds normally. Easy to just expose manually uncovering with the lens cap or using the "Galli Shutter approach". Of all my lenses, only one or two have shutters. You might also get a packard shutter which is normally about 1/25th sec.

One of my most successful lenses for 8 x 10 is the front half of an old Ilex Projection lens I got from Jim Galli. Even though the full lens gives an image size of about 4 x 5, using either the front or back half easily covers 8 x 10.

These lenses will give you many different options of softer focus images which can be very nice for portrait work. If you want sharper focus portraits, go with more modern lenses with built in shutters.

Hope this helps.

Thank Dan for your advice, and thanks to all.

So you use Delta 100 without problem with a shutterless lens. I assume you work in a studio, in an anvironment with not too much light as outdoor.

It’s right to say that in outdoor, with a shutterless lens, is difficult to use film negative (like Delta) and large aperture (like f5,6 or f8) ?


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[berserkLuca]

You could also look for a LUC or Gitzo shutter to put on the front of the lens - the LUC shutters are made in a few sizes. Like the Packard, they are limited to one speed (1/25 s).

1/25th is a not too bad time for portraiture!


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[Dan Dozer]

Thank Dan for your advice, and thanks to all.

So you use Delta 100 without problem with a shutterless lens. I assume you work in a studio, in an anvironment with not too much light as outdoor.

It’s right to say that in outdoor, with a shutterless lens, is difficult to use film negative (like Delta) and large aperture (like f5,6 or f8) ?


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Most of my work is indoors but I was shooting some portrait work with Delta 100 a couple of weeks ago outdoors in subdued shade at about F6.5 with my packard shutter (about 1/25th sec) and the negs turned out fine for the exposure.

[berserkLuca]

Most of my work is indoors but I was shooting some portrait work with Delta 100 a couple of weeks ago outdoors in subdued shade at about F6.5 with my packard shutter (about 1/25th sec) and the negs turned out fine for the exposure.

Perfect, one question: what type of shutter you use? On front lens or in the rear? There are some front lens shutters With a variety of shutter times?


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