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BertieWooster
21-Oct-2019, 14:41
I've worked as a photographer for nearly 15 years, but that has been entirely digital until this year, when I played about with medium format. But I'm very keen to take up large format, which I think offers that something extra that I've been looking to add to my photography.

I'm looking for something for portraiture and landscapes. I've been watching videos and reading as much as possible, and I know there's a huge amount to learn - and that it may not be as easy to learn as digital/MF were, given that this equipment isn't used as widely and that there are fewer sources of information. But I am keen to simply get started, and so I thought I'd see if someone can recommend a camera (and lens) that would be suitable.

I am not wealthy, so I will be buying used and I certainly won't be buying the best. But I am looking for a camera/lens combination that does either 4x5 or 8x10. I don't mind using something old and tatty (as long as the bellows are good and it works of course). Weight isn't hugely important. I can deal with considerable inconvenience - as long as I can get the results. I would need to be able to get some tilt. My only real concern is image quality and flexibility. I only want to have my cake and eat it, how hard can that be? :rolleyes:

I've been looking at some of the cheaper Graflex 4x5 cameras, or perhaps a Toyo, but I'm open to absolutely anything. However, as I say, my budget is low. At the moment, my absolute maximum is £250/ $465 US. I appreciate this doesn't buy you a lot, and that I may have to scout around a bit, or wait for something cheap to come up on eBay.

I would be very grateful for any advice you can offer on what might suit, or what compromises I might have to make.

Two23
21-Oct-2019, 14:54
I would start with a monorail camera as those are very reasonable and plentiful on the used market. You're only going to be able to afford one modern lens and I suggest a 150mm or 180mm. You could go for older, pre-WW2 lenses and get a 210mm Tessar in a Compound shutter (or Velostigmat) and a wider 4 or 5 inch (100-125mm) Dagor in a Compur shutter. Use a black jacket for a dark cloth. You can use an inexpensive plastic 6x magnifying loupe for focusing. I would also buy maybe two film holders. I assume you have a decent tripod. With your budget don't even think of 8x10.


Jeeves

BertieWooster
21-Oct-2019, 15:41
Thank you, Jeeves :D

Are the pre-WW2 lenses good quality? Sharpness is important to me. I don't mind strange effects though, such as swirly background blur. A bit of character is never a bad thing.


I would start with a monorail camera as those are very reasonable and plentiful on the used market. You're only going to be able to afford one modern lens and I suggest a 150mm or 180mm. You could go for older, pre-WW2 lenses and get a 210mm Tessar in a Compound shutter (or Velostigmat) and a wider 4 or 5 inch (100-125mm) Dagor in a Compur shutter. Use a black jacket for a dark cloth. You can use an inexpensive plastic 6x magnifying loupe for focusing. I would also buy maybe two film holders. I assume you have a decent tripod. With your budget don't even think of 8x10.


Jeeves

Tin Can
21-Oct-2019, 15:49
Good luck!

Why not post this exact post in WTB, in 30 days when you are allowed to view the sales sections.

Don't buy the first thing that pops up.

I suggest you try to buy a complete ready to use LF kit. Research the seller, here, eBay, or....

Many here have all you need, just sort the offers.

I will not be offering anything FS.

BertieWooster
21-Oct-2019, 15:55
Good luck!
Why not post this exact post in WTB, in 30 days when you are allowed to view the sales sections.


Thank you, I might do that. I am extremely impatient as a rule, but a recent experience in buying a medium format camera has taught me a bit of a lesson in that respect.

Peter De Smidt
21-Oct-2019, 16:12
Large format photography is an exercise in patience. Kumar Brahmajosyulahas a very nice-looking Sinar Norma for sale. He's also on Facebook. That, or similar, would be buying into a great system with plentiful pieces available used for a good price. For lenses, a 210mm f/5.6 lens would be a great choice. There are lots of options on Ebay from Fujinon, Nikon, Schneider, Rodenstock. Then you need film holders, tripod, meter, cable release, film, a place to develop film.....

B.S.Kumar
21-Oct-2019, 16:12
Bertie, Tin Can does a very good Aunt Agatha :)

Kumar

jmontague
21-Oct-2019, 19:42
If your want to do landscapes in addition to portraits, don’t rule out a press camera. I started with a Burke & James press and it was a good starter 4x5. Has most movements, with the exception of swing. Can be found for a very modest amount and are very rugged to boot.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

drew.saunders
21-Oct-2019, 20:29
The non-forum part of this site has lots of good articles. Some are 20 years old, but the cameras and lenses you'll be looking at are at least that old, so it won't matter. Here's a good start: https://www.largeformatphotography.info/matos-begin.html

Some of the information is about "new" cameras that have long since been discontinued. The suggested prices for used cameras and lenses are from 1999, but may not have changed all that much. Polaroid film is long gone, so that's no longer a good learning tool for new photographers.

Two23
21-Oct-2019, 20:30
It's lenses that generally limit what you can photo. Portraits call for longer lenses (180mm to 240mm), landscapes are usually done with wider lenses (90mm to 135mm). You are being pulled in two directions. Sharpness really isn't critical for portraits. I like to use 100 yr. old lenses for that. Otherwise, why wouldn't I just shoot my digital camera? If you are trying to stay within a very limited budget you're going to find you may have to choose between one modern lens or maybe two older lenses. I shoot both but mostly use the older lenses. I like them, they are quite different from modern digital lenses.


Jeeves

alan_b
21-Oct-2019, 20:53
You should be able to find a Sinar F and 150/180/210 lens for $300ish without much effort.

Pere Casals
22-Oct-2019, 03:19
camera/lens combination that does either 4x5 or 8x10.

>> I'd start with 4x5". LF allows custom development for each particular sheet, so mastering N+/- development is a powerful tool that's integral to most LF workflows. With 4x5" you will shot more than with 8x10, probably, so you may learn more, faster and cheaper.


>> I'd start with a ($200) CAMBO SC 4x5", cheap, sturdy and unlimited. A monorail is ideal to learn as you will practice easily all movements with no limitations. You will learn what limitations you want to allow in a field camera for the future. You may later sell the SC or to keep it to complement a future lightweight Field Camera. I love/have the old SINAR Norma, it's a bit more expensive than the SC but it's an absolutely refined thing: see how it handles a 2kg lens: https://www.flickr.com/photos/125592977@N05/47092537484/ , it would be difficult to find a modern camera that is that agile :) , A SINAR F and many others would also be suitable, of course, but don't spend much until you know what suits your taste, each photographer has his own preferences... single thing is that a monorail is perfect to learn.


>> Glass. Spend the minimum money possible until you know what you want. LF glass has many nuances and features (architecture, landscape and portrait have diverse choices), much more (IMHO) than in small formats, so learn a lot before investing. I'd start with a general usage Normal lens, around 150mm, a Plasmat like Symmar-S, Sironar-N, Nikon W or a Fuji would be perfect. All can be found multicoated, and any of those may cast (say) 300MPix "effective" resolution on your 4x5 sheets, well... that resolving power is only a bonus, LF has many other resources and also drawbacks.


You may also get a cheap Symmar convertible that has two focals, 150mm f/5.6 and 265mm f/12, the 265 conversion (remove the front cell) has soft corners until you stop a lot, but this is irrelevant for portraits. (Single coated, it may not be a problem if well used).
https://www.kenrockwell.com/schneider/150.htm

Make sure that the shutter of the lens you buy is in shape, buy from a seller that has a clear return policy and good reputation.


A good guide for exposures:

https://kenrockwell.com/tech/exposure-large-format.htm

linhofbiker
22-Oct-2019, 06:08
I would start with a monorail camera as those are very reasonable and plentiful on the used market. You're only going to be able to afford one modern lens and I suggest a 150mm or 180mm. You could go for older, pre-WW2 lenses and get a 210mm Tessar in a Compound shutter (or Velostigmat) and a wider 4 or 5 inch (100-125mm) Dagor in a Compur shutter. Use a black jacket for a dark cloth. You can use an inexpensive plastic 6x magnifying loupe for focusing. I would also buy maybe two film holders. I assume you have a decent tripod. With your budget don't even think of 8x10.


Jeeves

I agree about using a monorail in 4x5 - they are almost given away today. As for lenses the old Symmars are hard to beat for the price. As for pre-WW2 lenses Zeiss Jena are good value and if you can afford it, a set of 1920's Protarlinses are excellent for B/W. If you want to shoot color then stay with a Symmar 120 on up for 4x5.

Tin Can
22-Oct-2019, 06:38
2 things most beginners don't like

Replacing bellows, difficulty and cost varies greatly

Shutter repair is a dying skill, parts extinct for many

Bernice Loui
22-Oct-2019, 08:47
*"portraiture and landscapes"

*"Weight isn't hugely important. I can deal with considerable inconvenience - as long as I can get the results."

*"I would need to be able to get some tilt. My only real concern is image quality and flexibility."

*"I only want to have my cake and eat it, how hard can that be?"


Prime consideration would be lenses. What any image maker must understand is, LF is NOT like small format cameras where the camera brand often dictates what lenses can be used. Lenses on LF cameras are in the majority mounted on flat boards. This allows most ANY lens to be used on a LF camera long as the camera can properly support the lens to be used. If the camera has a built in shutter, barrel lenses can be used. This the rational behind deciding on lenses first, camera second, tripod_camera support system third. As for lenses, choose modern lenses in modern proven accurate, reliable shutters (typically Copal) in the focal lengths that will meet your image making needs from any of the big four (Rodenstock, Nikon, Schneider, Fujinon). Alternative to lens in shutter is to get a Sinar with Sinar shutter or have a Sinar shutter installed on to the camera of choice allowing most any lens in barrel or similar to be used.

*For 4x5 portraiture, typical focal lengths would be medium wide say 110mm to 135mm to Head-shoulder portraits at 210mm to 360mm (this is long_ish). Aperture used could be anything from f4.5 or larger to f22.

*For 4x5 landscapes, lens choice becomes a matter of image in mind. From ultra wide 38mm Schneider Super Angulon XL to 900mm+ process lenses once used for Graphic arts work.

Lots to consider here.


Suggest finding a 4x5 Sinar monorail with modern lens set. Ideally, this would be a Sinar Norma, cleaned, lubed and properly adjusted. A ~GOOD~ Sinar can last for as long as you want to do any LF image making, has few limitations on what lenses can be used with this camera system with accessories and ease image recording format changes. Sinar is a system you will NOT out grow and can meet most any image making demand that comes up. If you're patient, Norma's do appear on the used market for not a lot of $. One of the serious problems with any older and well used LF camera is the bellows. On press cameras like a Graflex, replacing the bellows might not be so easy or low cost. On a Sinar, the bellows are interchangeable easily changed or replaced in seconds. Add to this bellows from the 4x5 Sinar Norma fits the last version of Sinar P made and are completely backwards interchangeable.

Second choice would be a Sinar F (F, F+, F2). They sold a LOT of these and it would be very possible to find a good used Sinar F system with lenses, film holders, case, Ground Glass magnifier and etc for $400 ish on the used market. There was a time when there was a LOT of used LF stuff on the market at scrap heap prices, these days most of that has passed.

Third choice would be a Sinar P, this is likely out of budget, but not by much. It is really a studio-indoor camera, yet some take their Sinar P outdoors or on location. Sinar Front_Rear standards can be mixed matched combined as needed.

Regardless of camera choice, it MUST be in good mechanical condition as these cameras are not decades old since they were made-sold. Lubricants dry out, moving parts wear out, cameras get dropped-abused in surprising ways, storage can and will cause materials to degrade and fall apart. All these factors must be figured into any camera purchase. Much the same applies to lenses, with the number one problem of shutter problems which will cause serious grief for anyone beginning this road to LF image making.

Once lens-camera combo is decided upon, comes a proper tripod. This is as important as the lens choice and camera choice due to the demand for camera stability. A flimsy camera support system can wreck each sheet of film exposed. Don't fall into the lowest weight camera-tripod ideology-fantasy as there are givens based on camera size-weight and what a given tripod with tripod head that is ideal. Tripod leg materials like wood can work wonders to damp out vibrations that will affect image quality.

After all this hardware stuff is settled, there are film holders, dark cloth, light meter, light filters (most common Polarizer, ND, B&W colors) ground glass magnifier, camera-lens case to consider.

Then comes film, film processing, print making and print mounting to framing.

It is all part of an entire image making system with many parts involved.



Bernice

Corran
22-Oct-2019, 09:18
4x5 Crown or Speed Graphic with a 90mm Angulon, Super Angulon, or similar, 135mm Xenar or Optar as is typically included, and 210mm Symmar or similar is a perfectly fine starter kit that would probably clock in under $500 if you are patient and will do most things adequately.

Pere Casals
22-Oct-2019, 09:33
210mm Symmar or similar is a perfectly fine starter kit that would probably clock in under $500

$132+shipping, mint, right now, and from Japan:

196784

BertieWooster
22-Oct-2019, 21:07
Thank you so much for your thoughtful and comprehensive replies. I hadn't expected such an excellent response to my query. I have read every reply, and will be re-reading them over the coming days and weeks. I already have a much clearer idea of my requirements, thanks to the information you've provided. I'm going to have to think carefully about which lenses to get.

Unless I somehow chance upon an amazing bargain between now and 30 days time, then I'll make a request post in the sales forum once I have 'come of age', forum-wise.

Again, my sincere thanks to everyone that's taken the time to reply. It's reassuring to know that there is such a good community of large format users.

Dan Fromm
23-Oct-2019, 07:07
Bertie, I shoot Graphics (2x3, not 4x5) and a Cambo SC (also 2x3, a smaller version of the 4x5s). I like my little Graphics but they're limited; their only generally usable movement is front rise. If you want what a view camera can do, get a view camera. Cambo SC-2s (that's the 4x5er) can, with a bit of waiting, be bought for very little and are well-supported. Sinars are usually a little more expensive and are also well-supported. Both are modular and will support a wide range of focal lengths.

That said, many of us bought our first LF camera after a lot of thinking and imagining about what we'd like to accomplish. And many of us learned, after using that first LF camera for a while, what we actually needed and that the first camera wasn't it. Whatever you do will be wrong, so plunge right in and learn by doing. I don't know whether camera prices have hit the bottom yet, but many of us have sold the first (wrong) camera for only a small loss and sometimes a small gain. The risks from making a mistake aren't large.

About lenses. The world, i.e., ebay.com and to a lesser extent this forum's for sale section, is awash in post-WW II coated LF lenses. Its hard to make a bad mistake with any lens from the big four, in alphabetical order Fuji Photo Film, Nikon, Rodenstock and Schneider. I'm a tightwad, have had good luck with selected lenses from less well-known manufacturers such as Berthiot and Boyer.

About old lenses. I've got good results from ancient, some pre-WW I, Carl Zeiss Jena f/6.3 Tessars. The big risk with these, as with all used lenses, is that the shutters may be much less than 100% functional.

More about old lenses. Untill recently no one much cared about bokum and people used lenses that gave good image quality on the formats they were sold for. Virtually all anastigmats do this. The bokum nuts get the effects they like by using lenses on formats larger than they were intended to be used on, also by shooting wide open (this reduces coverage). Soft focus lenses are an exception, there's always been a minority element that loved what they do.

About learning from text. This site has many resources. Read the FAQs; a click on LF Home Page (upper left corner of the screen) will take you to them. Also go to the lenses section. There's a sticky there "Where to look for information ..."
The first post in that discussion has a link to a large list of links to catalogs, useful articles, ... It also lists books on LF photography that have been recommended highly here and on the French LF forum. Download the PDF, the index doesn't work with on-line pdf readers.

Good luck, have fun.

Ari
23-Oct-2019, 07:23
Monorail is the best to learn with, nothing beats it as a first camera. Even the song says so...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSoa1b-yBUY

Pair it with a 135mm or 150mm lens in a working shutter, and you're in business.

Luis-F-S
23-Oct-2019, 13:18
You should be able to find a Sinar F and 150/180/210 lens for $300ish without much effort.

+1!! a 210 Caltar is pretty reasonable, as is a 121 Super Angulon. A 45 Sinar F2 should run around $350. I've bought two for that thru this forum. L

alt.kafka
26-Oct-2019, 20:47
I just spent my first afternoon shooting LF today. Man, was it a blast. I got a Horseman L45 for crazy dirt cheap. I had no intention of getting involved with LF, but the gear is so cheap these days, I figured it would be fun to give it a try. Look on eBay and see what catches your eye. Sometimes kits come up with a lens or two.

I already had a sufficient tripod. Get a loupe. You can't focus by eye. Or, at least, I can't. Get a nice big darkcloth. I spent the afternoon under a jacket, and it wasn't really big enough. Also, a good lightmeter and lighting. I only did incident metering today, and I'm glad I had a good handheld meter already. My lighting is a couple of LED panels. They worked, but I was using really fast film. I can see needing a lot more light.

I spent a few hours blowing off a pack of Fuji FP-3000B, just to learn how to operate the camera and get a routine down. I think it's fine for that purpose, but that's about it. I may do another pack or two of instant film, but I'm going to transition pretty quickly into developing my own B&W film. I think then I should be able to evaluate what I want scanned or blown up. People on this board directed me to the Stearman SP-445. They have a kit that includes a pack of film and enough chemicals to develop it. The cost of film and chemicals seems like an almost trivial expense, compared to shipping and processing. It sure looks easy on YouTube.

I think it's just an opportunity to be able to do this stuff now. It's a good time to do it, perhaps before it's gone for good.

BertieWooster
26-Oct-2019, 21:11
I already had a sufficient tripod. Get a loupe. You can't focus by eye. Or, at least, I can't. Get a nice big darkcloth. I spent the afternoon under a jacket, and it wasn't really big enough. Also, a good lightmeter and lighting. I only did incident metering today, and I'm glad I had a good handheld meter already. My lighting is a couple of LED panels. They worked, but I was using really fast film. I can see needing a lot more light.

I spent a few hours blowing off a pack of Fuji FP-3000B, just to learn how to operate the camera and get a routine down. I think it's fine for that purpose, but that's about it. I may do another pack or two of instant film, but I'm going to transition pretty quickly into developing my own B&W film. I think then I should be able to evaluate what I want scanned or blown up. People on this board directed me to the Stearman SP-445. They have a kit that includes a pack of film and enough chemicals to develop it. The cost of film and chemicals seems like an almost trivial expense, compared to shipping and processing. It sure looks easy on YouTube.


Sounds like a good afternoon! Get any nice results? I'm hoping for one with a Polaroid holder, since I have two packs of ancient Polaroid Type 669 Polacolor ER film here (expired 1984) that I got from a house clearance sale. Might give some interesting results.

I missed a really cheap 4x5 view camera today because I hesitated. Times are hard and spending money is hard to justify, but I really feel my photography needs a boost.

alt.kafka
27-Oct-2019, 07:33
Sounds like a good afternoon! Get any nice results? I'm hoping for one with a Polaroid holder, since I have two packs of ancient Polaroid Type 669 Polacolor ER film here (expired 1984) that I got from a house clearance sale. Might give some interesting results.

I missed a really cheap 4x5 view camera today because I hesitated. Times are hard and spending money is hard to justify, but I really feel my photography needs a boost.

I was pleased with them. I shot one that was over exposed and ruined the next 3, but after that I was working with intention and getting results. I feel LF is a great medium to work with. Very different than a hand-held camera, and very inspiring. It was good to see the camera standing there on it's own, while I considered it's relationship to the subject. I feel I learned something fundamental about space and light. I think it will give you a new perspective on photography, just by spending a little time with it.

I see tons of 4x5's for sale for close to $100 on eBay, so I don't think you missed anything. Someone more knowledgable can correct me if I'm wrong on this, but a camera is just a frame and a bellows, so as long as it's minimally functional and light-tight, there isn't a whole lot more to it. Lenses are crazy cheap. I'm a little over $500 into the situation now, but if I wanted to blow off and process the first 50 shots of film today without spending another dime, I could do it. I'd just have to scan them with an ordinary flatbed, but at least I could evaluate them.

The Fuji is a crop format that's pretty close to a regular Polaroid size. It's $6 per shot, so it's not something one can use for test shots or anything. The images are good, and it's good for learning the camera, but it's too expensive otherwise. If you're not sure of your exposure, it's just cheaper to bracket and learn to develop on your own.

John Kasaian
27-Oct-2019, 08:44
It's important not to stress too much over your decisions.

A monorail is the most cost effective and will offer the most flexibility
A field will be easier to back pack with
A press offers hand held capabilities mostly at the expense of movements
If a camera is light tight and can be locked into position, you'll be golden.

210mm or 150mm from the big names in working Copal shutters will generally be excellent.

Used film holders are perfectly capable, but test them with cheap printing paper to see how perfectly capable they really are before you rely on them.

Don't spend/waste your money on any piece of equipment unless you find that you really need it.
There aren't any magic bullets.

Get out and take photographs. That will tell you more about what equipment works or doesn't work for you than anything.
Have fun!

Peter De Smidt
27-Oct-2019, 09:29
John gives good advice.

mikeacar
27-Oct-2019, 20:48
I'm in a similar boat. I got a slew of used film holders last week.



Used film holders are perfectly capable, but test them with cheap printing paper to see how perfectly capable they really are before you rely on them.


I'm going to guess the procedure for this is:

Buy some inexpensive paper, say 8x10 RC.
Cut to 4x5.
Load into holders. Label the paper and each side of each holder so you know which was which.
Take them out into sun, and turn them over to get exposure on all sides.
Take them back into the darkroom and develop them.

Any black spots mean you have a leak.

Sound right?

-- Mike

John Kasaian
27-Oct-2019, 20:50
I'm in a similar boat. I got a slew of used film holders last week.



I'm going to guess the procedure for this is:

Buy some inexpensive paper, say 8x10 RC.
Cut to 4x5.
Load into holders. Label the paper and each side of each holder so you know which was which.
Take them out into sun, and turn them over to get exposure on all sides.
Take them back into the darkroom and develop them.

Any black spots mean you have a leak.

Sound right?

-- Mike

Yessir!

mikeacar
27-Oct-2019, 21:04
Yessir!

Well alll right.

-- Mike

mikeacar
27-Oct-2019, 21:11
Oh, and a followup question...

I guess you could take one of those film holders loaded with photo paper and use it to test the light-tightness of your new-to-you camera?

-- Mike

Oren Grad
27-Oct-2019, 21:22
Oh, and a followup question...

I guess you could take one of those film holders loaded with photo paper and use it to test the light-tightness of your new-to-you camera?

-- Mike

Yes... the only thing to keep in mind is that, for historical reasons, actual sheet film sizes are slightly smaller than nominal sizes, and the film holders take that into account. So 4x5 film is actually slightly smaller than 4x5 inches, and if you cut your paper to exactly 4x5 inches it may not fit in your holders. Yes, this is a minor nuisance if you're trying to cut a sheet of 8x10 printing paper into four pieces.

mikeacar
27-Oct-2019, 22:01
Yes... the only thing to keep in mind is that, for historical reasons, actual sheet film sizes are slightly smaller than nominal sizes, and the film holders take that into account. So 4x5 film is actually slightly smaller than 4x5 inches, and if you cut your paper to exactly 4x5 inches it may not fit in your holders. Yes, this is a minor nuisance if you're trying to cut a sheet of 8x10 printing paper into four pieces.

A good point, thank you.

I'll be careful to measure the film holders and cut the paper in a clean, well-lighted place so I don't screw it up ;)

-- Mike

alt.kafka
31-Oct-2019, 15:44
Sounds like a good afternoon! Get any nice results? I'm hoping for one with a Polaroid holder, since I have two packs of ancient Polaroid Type 669 Polacolor ER film here (expired 1984) that I got from a house clearance sale. Might give some interesting results.

Make sure you get the right type of holder. There were, I think 3 kinds; the 545, which was for sheet film with a 3 1/2" x 4 1/2" image size, the 550, which was for pack film with a 3 1/2" x 4 1/2" image size, and the 405, which was the for the smaller 2 7/8"x3 3/4". Fuji made the PA-45, which is the same as the 550, and the PA-145, which is the same as the 405.

It looks like the 669 goes in the 405. I'd be surprised if your film still works, but if you get the right holder, at least you can pick up some newer Fuji film and have a little fun with it if it doesn't.

John Kasaian
31-Oct-2019, 16:22
Oh, and a followup question...

I guess you could take one of those film holders loaded with photo paper and use it to test the light-tightness of your new-to-you camera?

-- Mike

Set your camera up in a darkened room, take the back off and shine a flashlight inside. Any pinholes in the bellows will announce themselves.

roscoetuff-Skip Mersereau
31-Oct-2019, 16:25
Bertie: "i say ol' egg... why don't you ring up our favorite newt fancier, and ask Gussie Finknottle what he'd buy. He's into that sort of sport, what? Me? I'm having one of Jeeves's."

Jac@stafford.net
31-Oct-2019, 16:44
You can start with what is considered a wreck and learn a lot of LF reconstruction which I personally consider tragedy, or begin anew which commits you the real practice of LF photography right away. It is really that brutal and simple. Very best in your quest.

With luck I will post a FS of a Graflex with a famous fast aerial lens for what I believe it is worth - less than shipping. It is a trend I hope to begin.

Greg
31-Oct-2019, 17:13
When I was attending RIT in the late 1970s, the beginners view camera outfit consisted of the following:
4x5 Calumet monorail camera
210mm f/5.6 Schneider Symmar (convertible) lens with shutter release
6 4x5 plastic film holders, Riteway or Lisco
4x5 Polaroid backTripod - mine was a B&J wooden one but most were heavy metal ones
Weston light meter, don't remember the model number
focusing cloth
all neatly fit inside a bulky bakelite case with handle on top.. . was bear to carry for long distances

For taking the Zone System course one had the option of:
8x10 B&J wooden Commercial view camera12" lens (assorted brands to chose from
4 8x10" plastic film holders
B&J wooden tripod
spot meter (can't remember the make)
focusing cloth
no case provided but a cheap army surplus backpack was universally used
Using an 8x10 and making contact prints was heavily encouraged for the Zone System course that I took. Using Super-XX film also pretty much a given. FG-7 in a 9% Sodium Sulfite solution most often used even though HC-110 was supplied for free from Kodak. Actually all Kodak chemistries were supplied for free from Kodak!!!

mikeacar
31-Oct-2019, 18:53
Set your camera up in a darkened room, take the back off and shine a flashlight inside. Any pinholes in the bellows will announce themselves.

That sounds far too simple.

-- Mike

Corran
31-Oct-2019, 19:01
It really is that simple. Make sure the bellows are extended a moderate amount, else the leaks will not be as obvious.

BertieWooster
31-Oct-2019, 19:46
You can start with what is considered a wreck and learn a lot of LF reconstruction which I personally consider tragedy, or begin anew which commits you the real practice of LF photography right away. It is really that brutal and simple. Very best in your quest.

With luck I will post a FS of a Graflex with a famous fast aerial lens for what I believe it is worth - less than shipping. It is a trend I hope to begin.

Thanks - I really do want to start with something decent. I am currently checking eBay roughly every three seconds, and am counting down the days (17 now, I think) until I can get into the 'for sale' forum.

I have narrowed down my 'wants' to either a good quality field camera, or a monorail, [edit: or a suitably flexible press camera, but I've just realised that means I haven't actually narrowed anything down much] but I'm really looking for something with at least one lens included to save me some trouble.

In the mean time, I have actually bought this terrible old wreck, not so much as something I hope to really use much, but more as an interesting restoration job.

197060
197061

mikeacar
31-Oct-2019, 21:40
It really is that simple. Make sure the bellows are extended a moderate amount, else the leaks will not be as obvious.

Narrator: "It really was that simple."

Yep, there one is. Glad I found it. Thanks for the advice.

In fact there are two. I think I'll ask KEH for a replacement bellows.

-- Mike

Leszek Vogt
31-Oct-2019, 22:03
Just saw a dozen+ on CL in SF.....some with lens, some larger LF and B&J (what ?) for $150 ? Aaand, that's a 5x7 :>)
Good luck.

Les

BertieWooster
31-Oct-2019, 22:17
Just saw a dozen+ on CL in SF.....some with lens, some larger LF and B&J (what ?) for $150 ? Aaand, that's a 5x7 :>)
Good luck.

Les

Unfortunately, I'm in England where these things seem to be far less common - I'm probably looking at importing from the US or Japan.

Leszek Vogt
31-Oct-2019, 22:52
Sorry, oooops. Tho San Francisco is in US :>)

Les

Huub
1-Nov-2019, 05:01
You should take a look at the offerings of ffordes - not in England, but at the other side of Hadrians wall. I have dealt in de past with him and his service is great.

Paul Ron
1-Nov-2019, 06:04
i restarted shooting 4x5 last year. i bought a wista metal camera n a few lenses. the camera is wonderful n my lenses are beautiful. pictures are still just as crappy as my MF shots but thats not gunna change with equipment. the negatives are gorgeous! that created another expense... an enlarger to handel 4x5.

my only sugestion... get a lighter more compact camera. lugging my kit around in my backpack is a real burden. im shopping for a wood field camera this year.

btw i do have a surplus of film holders should you need?

enjoy!

Corran
1-Nov-2019, 06:32
In fact there are two. I think I'll ask KEH for a replacement bellows.

Before you go through the trouble, small light leaks are a cinch to repair with liquid electrical tape. I have a 5x7 that really needed brand-new bellows due to them being Swiss-cheese but a generous application of LET enabled me to use the camera just fine. Really bad bellows should be replaced but a couple small pinholes aren't enough to need a whole new set.

Andrew Plume
1-Nov-2019, 06:57
Looks like a Houghton/Sanderson or something similar.................?

Anyhow and fwiw I've been down 'the restoration route' too many times. if there's a real urgency to have the project finished there are always a handful of obstacles and as you will already have realised, the bellows looks shot. Recommend if you can to make your own since a new one may well out weigh the little cost that you (would have) paid...... Also the tripod issue, this will require a circular metal ring with tripod 'socket's plus a wooden tripod. Not all of these are universal. Quite often this has been overcome by attaching a piece of light weight wood to the base and drilling in a modern socket, which are pretty cheap. Also and probably there's more, film holders............these Cameras used the British style wooden book holders and here again the size wasn't universal as each Manufacturer pretty well had their own size

Anyhow Bertie good luck with this, I'm also in the UK if you want to contact me

best regards

Andrew

Andrew Plume
1-Nov-2019, 07:04
Hi Bertie

Your best bet could well be an entry level Sinar F, bags of extras always available, great value and robust. If you drop if (without a lens) you are very unlikely to cause any damage

Also it breaks down into three pretty flat parts, that's apart from the board and the rail and attachment. Very quick to assemble, even a mechanically minded numpty like me isn't phased..............difficult to beat imo and...........and...........it has pretty well all of the movements possible. I've been big 'in movements' in the past, if you're into abstracts and part out of focus areas in your images, see what can be achieved by moving both or either of the back or front standards around - literally opens up a new world when compared to the sole image plane that one gets with 35mm or most MF cameras

good luck and best regards

Andrew

BertieWooster
1-Nov-2019, 10:42
Looks like a Houghton/Sanderson or something similar.................?

Anyhow and fwiw I've been down 'the restoration route' too many times. if there's a real urgency to have the project finished there are always a handful of obstacles and as you will already have realised, the bellows looks shot. Recommend if you can to make your own since a new one may well out weigh the little cost that you (would have) paid...... Also the tripod issue, this will require a circular metal ring with tripod 'socket's plus a wooden tripod. Not all of these are universal. Quite often this has been overcome by attaching a piece of light weight wood to the base and drilling in a modern socket, which are pretty cheap. Also and probably there's more, film holders............these Cameras used the British style wooden book holders and here again the size wasn't universal as each Manufacturer pretty well had their own size

Anyhow Bertie good luck with this, I'm also in the UK if you want to contact me


Thanks, I appreciate that! It's actually a Thornton Pickard Imperial Triple Extension. I think it's all there, including the tripod base (but excluding a lens, which I need to find a replacement for). It looks in a bit of a state, but I'm hoping most of it is cosmetic. The bellows do look pretty dead, but I'm going to try some things to bring them back to life. If that fails, making my own sounds like a plan.

I paid £65 for it, including postage. That's a bit more than I'd normally spend on something in that state, but I talked the seller down from a £150 starting price. Fingers crossed it gets here intact and I can do something with it!

Thanks for the recommendation re: Sinar F. eBay UK have a 10% off offer today, on anything over £100, so I'm going to see if I can find something. I had been waiting for something with a lens included, but I might just bite the bullet and buy separate bits.

mikeacar
1-Nov-2019, 20:02
Before you go through the trouble, small light leaks are a cinch to repair with liquid electrical tape. I have a 5x7 that really needed brand-new bellows due to them being Swiss-cheese but a generous application of LET enabled me to use the camera just fine. Really bad bellows should be replaced but a couple small pinholes aren't enough to need a whole new set.

Well, I just got this camera and its stated condition was without any issues that affect image quality. So I feel it's fair to hold them to their warranty.

But it's a fair point about the hassle and delay. I'll think it over.

-- Mike

Andrew Plume
2-Nov-2019, 04:32
Thanks, I appreciate that! It's actually a Thornton Pickard Imperial Triple Extension. I think it's all there, including the tripod base (but excluding a lens, which I need to find a replacement for). It looks in a bit of a state, but I'm hoping most of it is cosmetic. The bellows do look pretty dead, but I'm going to try some things to bring them back to life. If that fails, making my own sounds like a plan.

I paid £65 for it, including postage. That's a bit more than I'd normally spend on something in that state, but I talked the seller down from a £150 starting price. Fingers crossed it gets here intact and I can do something with it!

Thanks for the recommendation re: Sinar F. eBay UK have a 10% off offer today, on anything over £100, so I'm going to see if I can find something. I had been waiting for something with a lens included, but I might just bite the bullet and buy separate bits.


Thanks indeed Bertie and good luck

Ping me a private message if you ever need any more help

best regards

Andrew

JimboWalker
4-Nov-2019, 16:43
I would start with the Calumet cc400 monorail. Do not get some iffy old lens. I you can find the Calumet (Rodenstock 150mm) that would be good start, but not great for portraits, you need something longer. A Kodak 203mm f7.7 might be a good choice for both purposes . I have one and it will not disappoint. The issue is that once you start getting an out fit, you have to keep adding stuff to make it like you want. Stuff like a tripod, head with a sturdy mount, lens board commitment, etc. Happy Journey !!!!

BertieWooster
19-Nov-2019, 14:03
Thank you to everybody that kindly offered me their advice on this. I have just taken delivery of a Sinar F with a copal shutter and cables, and a Schneider Kreuznach Symmar-S 150mm 5.6.

Oddly enough, the seller dropped it around to me, and he had, disassembled in a carrier bag, another camera. It looks like a normal Sinar F back, but has a P front standard, also with a copal shutter and this time with a Symmar-S 135 5.6 lens. He let me have that one for the bargain price of £200, so I snapped his hand off (even though I do not have £200), so now I have two cameras. I'll probably use the best bits to build one camera, and then keep the rest for spares or sell them, depending upon how terrible my finances look.

Thanks again!

Andrew Plume
19-Nov-2019, 14:14
Top news Bertie,..........

..........nothing stopping you now..............

..........apart from that restoration project, that is

regards

Andrew

mikeacar
19-Nov-2019, 22:41
Thank you to everybody that kindly offered me their advice on this. I have just taken delivery of a Sinar F with a copal shutter and cables, and a Schneider Kreuznach Symmar-S 150mm 5.6.


What do you know, I wound up with a Sinar F2 and a Schneider-Kreuznach 150mm f/5.6 Symmar-S MC. I just finished developing my first negatives! Here's an iPhone shot on the light table, sloppily inverted:

197609

Worked out pretty well.

-- Mike

ShugPug
19-Nov-2019, 22:49
Really glad I found this thread - I'm now in the same position as you were (albeit with significantly less exodus than you as I'm not a professional!) at the start of the thread.

I think the Christmas expenses will need to pass by before I can even start to think about this!

Unfortunately [emoji30]

John Kasaian
23-Nov-2019, 22:40
Really glad I found this thread - I'm now in the same position as you were (albeit with significantly less exodus than you as I'm not a professional!) at the start of the thread.

I think the Christmas expenses will need to pass by before I can even start to think about this!

Unfortunately [emoji30]

After 30 days you can access the For Sale section here---usually very good stuff and very good prices.
Rest easy, your patience will be rewarded!

BertieWooster
24-Nov-2019, 06:59
What do you know, I wound up with a Sinar F2 and a Schneider-Kreuznach 150mm f/5.6 Symmar-S MC. I just finished developing my first negatives! Here's an iPhone shot on the light table, sloppily inverted:

197609

Worked out pretty well.

-- Mike

Those look great! That makes me glad of my choices - I got my first pack of film a couple of days ago, and hope to take my first photo in the next few days.

Pere Casals
24-Nov-2019, 09:00
I've worked as a photographer for nearly 15 years, but that has been entirely digital until this year

Please, let me ask some questions...

How you get interested in film photography ?

What do you find special in it ?

Do you feel that you will continue shooting some film in the long term ?


I ask you that because I see some photographers (to some extend) supporting the "film comeback" and I'm asking myself if this is a long term trend or not, as you recently engaged in that it would be nice to know your opinion, thanks in advance.

mikeacar
24-Nov-2019, 21:32
Those look great! That makes me glad of my choices - I got my first pack of film a couple of days ago, and hope to take my first photo in the next few days.

Thank you! I'm pleased that I didn't seem to make any gross screwups. I've only made contact sheets so far.

I took a few more photographs today. I'm using my digital camera as a light meter and it's a pain in the butt, so since I value convenience, I think I'm going to move to an actual light meter soon.

-- Mike

BertieWooster
25-Nov-2019, 11:17
Please, let me ask some questions...

How you get interested in film photography ?

What do you find special in it ?

Do you feel that you will continue shooting some film in the long term ?

To be honest, I'd always thought that film was basically dead and that there was literally no advantage to using it, only disadvantages. But I've recently been buying and selling a lot of old cameras (going right back to the early pocket folding cameras) and I thought I'd try one of the folding medium format cameras I'd obtained. That was a disaster, since apparently one of the elements was missing from the lens. Then I decided to get a Mamiya C3 - which was also disaster because the lens suffered badly from separation (something the seller, a knowledgeable camera seller, somehow failed to notice).

However, I got one really nice portrait out of it, taken in Winston Churchill's old study in Westminster, which was much nicer than the digital version I'd taken - there was just a different feel to the image, some sort of analogue quality. The colours (Kodak Portra) were amazing. So that inspired me to look at large format instead, partly for the huge increase in resolution that it offers.

I watched a lot of YouTube, and videos like this really helped to make my mind up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKCZQjrRJak (especially because that's the type of photography I've traditionally done)

I will continue with film in the long term, as long as I can get this camera working well and I get some decent images out of it. I never like to count my chickens. Scanning may be my next major hurdle - as well as trying to fix a problem with my front standard bearer which means it won't tilt upwards.

Pere Casals
25-Nov-2019, 12:55
there was just a different feel to the image, some sort of analogue quality. The colours (Kodak Portra) were amazing.

Thanks for that explanation.

I'm a bare amateur, but I've always been amazed what Pros like you can do with a camera. I don't think photography is about analog vs digital, but my feel is that old good film offers an impressive set of tools for a good photographer, probably today it's difficult to use film professionally, but anyway let me point a list of top wedding photographers that are using film exclusively or a lot in their works:


José Villa https://josevillablog.com/
John Dolan http://johndolan.com/portfolios/marriage/
Greg Finck http://www.gregfinck.com/
Noa Azoulay http://www.featherlove.com/
Erich Mcvey http://www.erichmcvey.com/
Braedon Flynn https://braedonphotography.com/portfolio/Weddings/
Liz Banfield https://www.lizbanfield.com/weddings
Judy Pak http://judypak.com/the-details
Sylvie Gil http://www.sylviegilphotography.com/
Ryan Ray http://www.ryanrayphoto.com/
Tec Petaja http://www.tecpetajaphoto.com/
Elizabeth Messina http://www.elizabethmessina.com/#!/i...love/gallery/1
Corbin Gurkin https://corbingurkin.com/
Aaron Delesie http://www.delesieblog.com/
Eric Kelley http://erickelley.com/portfolio
Allan Zepeda https://allanzepeda.com/
Heather Waraksa http://heatherwaraksa.com/
Charlotte Jenks Lewis http://charlottejenkslewis.com/
Leo Patrone http://www.leopatronephotography.com/
KT Merry https://www.ktmerry.com/


IMHO it's not about retro look, or not only about that, at least...

Also film is still used for some movie shootings this 2019, with clearly superior results.

http://tiendagourmet.co/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Star-Wars-IX-The-rise-of-Skywalker-reveals-new-images-of-the-signed-Annie-Leibovitz-.jpg
197810


https://cdn.collider.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/star-wars-the-force-awakens-john-boyega-j-j-abrams.jpg
197811

Bob Salomon
25-Nov-2019, 14:01
Thanks for that explanation.

I'm a bare amateur, but I've always been amazed what Pros like you can do with a camera. I don't think photography is about analog vs digital, but my feel is that old good film offers an impressive set of tools for a good photographer, probably today it's difficult to use film professionally, but anyway let me point a list of top wedding photographers that are using film exclusively or a lot in their works:


José Villa https://josevillablog.com/
John Dolan http://johndolan.com/portfolios/marriage/
Greg Finck http://www.gregfinck.com/
Noa Azoulay http://www.featherlove.com/
Erich Mcvey http://www.erichmcvey.com/
Braedon Flynn https://braedonphotography.com/portfolio/Weddings/
Liz Banfield https://www.lizbanfield.com/weddings
Judy Pak http://judypak.com/the-details
Sylvie Gil http://www.sylviegilphotography.com/
Ryan Ray http://www.ryanrayphoto.com/
Tec Petaja http://www.tecpetajaphoto.com/
Elizabeth Messina http://www.elizabethmessina.com/#!/i...love/gallery/1
Corbin Gurkin https://corbingurkin.com/
Aaron Delesie http://www.delesieblog.com/
Eric Kelley http://erickelley.com/portfolio
Allan Zepeda https://allanzepeda.com/
Heather Waraksa http://heatherwaraksa.com/
Charlotte Jenks Lewis http://charlottejenkslewis.com/
Leo Patrone http://www.leopatronephotography.com/
KT Merry https://www.ktmerry.com/


IMHO it's not about retro look, or not only about that, at least...

Also film is still used for some movie shootings this 2019, with clearly superior results.

http://tiendagourmet.co/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Star-Wars-IX-The-rise-of-Skywalker-reveals-new-images-of-the-signed-Annie-Leibovitz-.jpg
197810


https://cdn.collider.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/star-wars-the-force-awakens-john-boyega-j-j-abrams.jpg
197811

It’s not for a retro look. It’s for marketing. They sell their service on the basis that they use film so they are different.

But maybe you might want to make a list of the top wedding/event shooters that use digital? It’s a far larger list!

Let me tell you a little personal story. When my daughter was married a very famous pair of photographers, plus an assistant who paid them to assist, shot the affair. Their names were Monte Zucker and Clay Blackmore. Do a search to find out who Monte was and who Clay is.

Monte was famous for not sending out proofs, he would only show the parents, grandparents and the celebrants the proofs in his studio.
However, we were good friends and his studio was in Silver Spring, MD and we lived in Northern NJ so he made an exception and sent us the proofs. In those days most studios finished their prints with a spray of McDonald spray lacquer. So they all had to have a spray booth in the studio.
We received the proof book and two days later Monte’s studio and home burned down. Many rolls of negatives were destroyed in the fire or by the water to fight the fire, including ours! The only prints we, our daughter and son in law and his parents could get were copies of the proofs!

The cause of that fire, and of several other similar fires at studios was that lacquer spray. Over time the spray built up a lacquer coating inside the spray booth and when the exhaust fan in the booth shorted out the flammable lacquer started a major fire!

Had digital been available then this would not have occurred!

BertieWooster
25-Nov-2019, 15:12
Thanks for that explanation.
IMHO it's not about retro look, or not only about that, at least...


For me, there has to be something 'different' about film, or it isn't worth doing.

Ultimately, I can pick up one of my DSLRs and get completely sharp, high quality images even with an entry-level lens, and then colour it in Photoshop. The technology has come on so much that there's very little I can't achieve (on a technical level I mean) with my seven year old Nikon D800.

I have to say though, I would never, ever shoot a wedding on film. Only the stuff I have the time to take great care over.


Also film is still used for some movie shootings this 2019, with clearly superior results.
The new Star Wars films look absolutely beautiful. I am in awe of how incredible the cinematography is. I recently started shooting some of my video work on film - although, so far, only in Super 8 format. I'm on the look out for a 16mm camera.

BertieWooster
25-Nov-2019, 16:03
This is an example of what I mean when I talk about the 'feel' that a film camera can give (for various reasons). It's not a fair test, but it is still a reasonable example of the sort of difference I'm looking for.

197815

Pere Casals
26-Nov-2019, 01:31
This is an example of what I mean when I talk about the 'feel' that a film camera can give (for various reasons). It's not a fair test, but it is still a reasonable example of the sort of difference I'm looking for.

197815


Sensors have an spectral sensisitvity that's good for all in general, but suboptimal for any particular situation

197831


Human eye has adaptations on the fly that are difficult to emulate... with film you replace the sensor nature for each kind of scene, just by using one film or other. You won't make a good portrait with Velvia 50, but it rocks in landscape, in the same way never, never, never a DSLR will approach to Portra manificience for portraits because it has a dedicated spectral footprint for that, while DSLR relies in a color edition that won't restore the spectral richness the skin had, as this information was lost when the light spectrum was simplified into 3 digital values.

A film advantage is that you have several spectral footprints you can load in your camera, digital color edition is not the same by far.


197829


If you see spectral curves in film datasheets... this tells why each color film is a different beast, while dslr sensors are all mostly the same: good in general but not good at any specialized job. A creative color edition may mask that lack of excellence, but if you scratch a bit the paint then you find no gold under. Portra is pure Gold for portraits, in the right hands, of course.


This is the skin spectrum:

197832


In color photography we reduce a spectrum to three values (both with film and with digital), the way we make that conversion matters.


The funny thing happens when shooting outdoors, under direct sunlight, Portra shines like the sun itself.

Havoc
26-Nov-2019, 03:09
We received the proof book and two days later Monte’s studio and home burned down. Many rolls of negatives were destroyed in the fire or by the water to fight the fire, including ours! The only prints we, our daughter and son in law and his parents could get were copies of the proofs!

The cause of that fire, and of several other similar fires at studios was that lacquer spray. Over time the spray built up a lacquer coating inside the spray booth and when the exhaust fan in the booth shorted out the flammable lacquer started a major fire!

Had digital been available then this would not have occurred!

You really think there are no photographers that lost everything in a software/hardware crash? Wow...

Pere Casals
26-Nov-2019, 04:09
It’s not for a retro look. It’s for marketing. They sell their service on the basis that they use film so they are different.

Well, it's actually different, better or worse depending on personal opinions, but it's different.

James Bond: Skyfall (2012) was shot digitally for first time in the franchise, with an inferior result, James Bond: Spectre (2015) was shot on film again. I bet that James Bond: No Time to Die (2020) will be shot on film again, we'll see...

197833

Nobody (except me :), I guess) buys a theater ticket because the movie was shot on film. If Star Wars 9 has been shot on film this is because technique and aesthetics. It's different.



But maybe you might want to make a list of the top wedding/event shooters that use digital? It’s a far larger list!

99.99% of the wedding portraiture is done today digital, for good reasons. But there is no doubt that in the top ranked Wedding Pros film has an extraordinary presence. In part this is because of California: it is populated with excellent imaging technicians (Hollywood industry) and because some popular photographers made a sound work, remarkably José Villa.

There are many creative factors in wedding photography, but there is no doubt that those works crafted on film are technically superior, not speaking about sharpness, it's about tonal nuances, selective saturation and organic look. Also in the DSLR range we only have sharp lenses, for MF and up we have many optic resources.



Had digital been available then this would not have occurred!

:) Bob, this was a funny story !! Thanks for sharing it! that lacker...


I concede that a double SD is safer than film, but SDs can be lost or they can be also incinerated.

We have the Risk Compensation Theory, which is quite interesting : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk_compensation

Alan Klein
29-Dec-2019, 20:43
Well, it's actually different, better or worse depending on personal opinions, but it's different.

James Bond: Skyfall (2012) was shot digitally for first time in the franchise, with an inferior result, James Bond: Spectre (2015) was shot on film again. I bet that James Bond: No Time to Die (2020) will be shot on film again, we'll see...

197833

Nobody (except me :), I guess) buys a theater ticket because the movie was shot on film. If Star Wars 9 has been shot on film this is because technique and aesthetics. It's different.




99.99% of the wedding portraiture is done today digital, for good reasons. But there is no doubt that in the top ranked Wedding Pros film has an extraordinary presence. In part this is because of California: it is populated with excellent imaging technicians (Hollywood industry) and because some popular photographers made a sound work, remarkably José Villa.

There are many creative factors in wedding photography, but there is no doubt that those works crafted on film are technically superior, not speaking about sharpness, it's about tonal nuances, selective saturation and organic look. Also in the DSLR range we only have sharp lenses, for MF and up we have many optic resources.




:) Bob, this was a funny story !! Thanks for sharing it! that lacker...


I concede that a double SD is safer than film, but SDs can be lost or they can be also incinerated.

We have the Risk Compensation Theory, which is quite interesting : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk_compensation

My biggest gripe is when the theater often use bulbs that are so dim, daytime shots look like night. It drives me nuts. I complain to management and they ignore me.