View Full Version : Very neat artice by the New Yorker on Thomas Joshua Cooper
Steven Ruttenberg
1-Oct-2019, 21:40
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/10/07/a-photographer-at-the-ends-of-the-earth?utm_campaign=aud-dev&utm_source=nl&utm_brand=tny&utm_mailing=TNY_Magazine_093019&utm_medium=email&bxid=5bea0d2a2ddf9c72dc8db496&cndid=49588948&esrc=auto_auth_de&mbid=&utm_term=TNY_Magazine
Thanks for posting!
A well written history of a "windmill tilter". Thomas Joshua Cooper as told by Dana Goodyear is every photographer's hero.
Would all our lives be so romantically described.
I also like that a few images were shared!
Interesting article, but it has way too much hyperbole or even plain lies for me. More importantly, there are some beautiful Cooper images on the Lannan Foundation website.
Here are a few statements that I thought were a bit over the top:
"He has bought the last of the film developer that he prefers, the last of the fixer, and the last of the paper." I wonder what the developer and paper were? Why so particular about fixer?
"Awkward, fragile, heavy (the rig, including tripod and film, weighs some sixty pounds)," His set up looks usual, no way it is 60 pounds.
"Made from nineteenth-century wood, the camera is particularly vulnerable to the influence of salt water." Wood is not especially sensitive to salt water, no matter how old it is. Sure, it could warp etc., but metal would be worse in salty environments.
"The final two weeks they spent in the twelve-foot-long dinghy, towing Northanger and depth-sounding as they went." The Northanger was a 54-foot motorized sailboat (so they say)-- why do this with a 12-foot dinghy? It would be like towing a large truck with a bicycle, and the main hazard was ice, so depth soundings would not help.
"Printing requires total concentration—fifteen hours a day, a week per print." Over 100 hours to figure out every print?
"They were in a freezing fog, but Cooper could see on the map that nearby was an uncharted island," Uncharted, yet on a map, somehow seen in freezing fog? This could just be unclear writing taken literally.
There are dozens of others, and even some more on the Lannan Foundation website (e.g., "equipped with special film for below freezing temperatures".) I did not believe anything after a while.
By the way, the word "gullible" is not in any dictionary.
I guess you never told a story around a campfire...
Interesting article, but it has way too much hyperbole or even plain lies for me. More importantly, there are some beautiful Cooper images on the Lannan Foundation website.
Here are a few statements that I thought were a bit over the top:
"He has bought the last of the film developer that he prefers, the last of the fixer, and the last of the paper." I wonder what the developer and paper were? Why so particular about fixer?
"Awkward, fragile, heavy (the rig, including tripod and film, weighs some sixty pounds)," His set up looks usual, no way it is 60 pounds.
"Made from nineteenth-century wood, the camera is particularly vulnerable to the influence of salt water." Wood is not especially sensitive to salt water, no matter how old it is. Sure, it could warp etc., but metal would be worse in salty environments.
"The final two weeks they spent in the twelve-foot-long dinghy, towing Northanger and depth-sounding as they went." The Northanger was a 54-foot motorized sailboat (so they say)-- why do this with a 12-foot dinghy? It would be like towing a large truck with a bicycle, and the main hazard was ice, so depth soundings would not help.
"Printing requires total concentration—fifteen hours a day, a week per print." Over 100 hours to figure out every print?
"They were in a freezing fog, but Cooper could see on the map that nearby was an uncharted island," Uncharted, yet on a map, somehow seen in freezing fog? This could just be unclear writing taken literally.
There are dozens of others, and even some more on the Lannan Foundation website (e.g., "equipped with special film for below freezing temperatures".) I did not believe anything after a while.
By the way, the word "gullible" is not in any dictionary.
Worth writing a note the the editor of the New Yorker. They should do better.
Andrew Tymon
2-Oct-2019, 14:18
The developer is Edwa Fg7 and the paper was Agfa Multi contrast classic both discontinued. As to the fixer I have no idea. As to the dinghy towing the sail boat. They were in uncharted waters with no information as to what was there. I'm sure they didn't literally tow the the sailboat but had it follow the dinghy they were taking depth soundings from. There is rock as they were in Antarctica.
I guess you never told a story around a campfire...
Sure, plenty of them, but I wouldn't encourage a magazine writer to publish them. And I do try and stick to the truth.
Jim Galli
2-Oct-2019, 14:56
Bull$hit is a necessary part of being an artist. Otherwise you're just a guy with a large antique camera . . . like me.
Drew Wiley
2-Oct-2019, 14:58
Nothing new here. John Muir and Clarence King embellished their adventures for sake of big city suckers. It's what sold books. Then not too long ago Greg Mortensen.
Thanks for the developer and paper info.
i would expect a 54-foot sailboat to have a depth sounder -- and they could have traveled further off-shore in much deeper water until they neared the shoreline destination and carefully sounded their way in using the dinghy. Submerged fiords can be difficult to map, but broader reefs are usually better known, as that's where the fish are. With all of the obviously false information, why would I think their seafaring was any more credible? Also, in the article, the ship captain discredits Cooper's account.
I am a long-time subscriber to the New Yorker, and enjoy the writing. But sometimes their freelancers are fooled or just like to write "campfire stories" that are supposed to be factual. This is the third one in a year that I am aware of.
Perhaps I am just not used to the norms of the art world.
Bull$hit is a necessary part of being an artist. Otherwise you're just a guy with a large antique camera . . . like me.
Thanks Jim Galli, -- this is truly very helpful to me. I am very naive when it comes to the art world. It also explains many of Drew Wiley's posts.
Drew Wiley
2-Oct-2019, 15:43
(?)I don't BS. Imply that, and welcome to my Ignore list. Hopefully you were not. It always amazes me how dazed urbanites can be about rough n tumble outdoor lifestyles that are quite predictable to a different demographic - maybe not big view cameras in their packs, but things equally adventurous. But if someone does appear gullible "around the campfire", somebody is going to accommodate them.
Kirk Gittings
2-Oct-2019, 16:06
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/10/07/a-photographer-at-the-ends-of-the-earth?utm_campaign=aud-dev&utm_source=nl&utm_brand=tny&utm_mailing=TNY_Magazine_093019&utm_medium=email&bxid=5bea0d2a2ddf9c72dc8db496&cndid=49588948&esrc=auto_auth_de&mbid=&utm_term=TNY_Magazine
Cooper is certainly a larger than life character who can tell a good story. I’ve known him since about 1970 and personally witnessed some of his better known exploits as a graduate student-I was an undergraduate at the time at UNM. Given that I would not discount anything attributed to him by him or anyone else. One such incident changed the course of my life. The art world needs more more people like TJC in my opinion.
I took a photo class or two from Thomas back in 1980, plus or minus a couple years...he might have been freshly out of grad school and back to teach as a lecturer where he got his undergrad degree. A Humboldtian and a closer relative to Bigfoot than I am. To him, it is not bullshit, but thoughts seriously being run through that very intelligent and photo-centered brain of his. He started up the Photography Dept at the Glasgow School of Arts, and has got the history and information to back up those thoughts. If you can't keep up, then yes, it can sound like BS. And yes, he puts that much intensity into every exposure and into every print...at a level that many do not/cannot understand.
He demanded much from his students -- he almost threw me out of his class over a misunderstanding (my fault), but several students came to my defense and the effort used by both of us to repair the student-teacher relationship made the class even more positively intense and rewarding. He is a talker and critiques went easily twice as long as usual...but it was all relevant and educational.
The author of the article may exaggerate some and try to drum up a little more excitement, but it all reads like Thomas to me.
Jim Galli
2-Oct-2019, 17:13
To clarify, I was calling bs on the article writer, not the arteest. But can anyone deny that world (fine art) is not filled with plenty of the same. It was a fine read. I enjoyed it.
Jim Becia
2-Oct-2019, 18:23
There’s an interesting YouTube presentation by him. Well worth watching as far as I’m concerned.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MQEF1c0Q0AY
Peter Collins
2-Oct-2019, 18:39
Somebody at The New Yorker should have read the article before it went to press. Egregious writing.
Drew Wiley
2-Oct-2019, 18:43
Thanks for that link, Jim. I'll have to wait for a rainy day to endure the whole thing. Indeed an intense fellow, like the mad scientist in Back to the Future. I don't know if that frame of mind helps or hurts a person making photographs. Hard to tell over the web just how eloquent those prints might or might not be.
Keith Fleming
2-Oct-2019, 22:01
In response to Peter Collins' comments, I think it safe to say that some editor did in fact read the article before publication. But I will bet it passed muster based on the author's writing style, not the technical aspects of large format photography. In this digital world, it would not surprise me that no one on the magazine's staff knows anything about large format photography. If the draft article had been circulated on this forum, the author would have felt as if he had beaten about the head and shoulders.
Keith
A friend who also studied with Thomas used the word 'hagiography' to describe the author's writing approach on the subject of Thomas Joshua Cooper. I learned a new word today...
Jim Becia
3-Oct-2019, 05:30
Thanks for that link, Jim. I'll have to wait for a rainy day to endure the whole thing. Indeed an intense fellow, like the mad scientist in Back to the Future. I don't know if that frame of mind helps or hurts a person making photographs. Hard to tell over the web just how eloquent those prints might or might not be.
Drew,
It’s a fun video. His off the cuff speaking manner is rough sometimes, he drops f bombs on a regular basis. He’s incredibly passionate about what he does, and his passion is probably the one main idea that resonates throughout. I just ordered his most recent book to really get a chance to study his work. What he did on this project is quite amazing. His working methodology is quite interesting, one piece of film for any composition along his journey. I admire his passion.
I liked Thomas Joshua Cooper's non-ted talk, he starts out a bit rough and shifts into the smoothness of a repeated tale. His story.
His word placements are different and he uses varying emphasis.
A deep mind at work trying hard to communicate in common language.
In 2 hours he moves the listener onto his path.
Try that sometime, not easy.
There’s an interesting YouTube presentation by him. Well worth watching as far as I’m concerned.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MQEF1c0Q0AY
I just ordered his most recent book to really get a chance to study his work. What he did on this project is quite amazing. His working methodology is quite interesting, one piece of film for any composition along his journey. I admire his passion.
You won't be disappointed with Refuge Jim. I have 6 of TJC's books and the quality of printing is excellent.
I've been a follower of his ever since my photography tutor showed me Dreaming the Gokstadt back in the 80's.
He also has a lesser known volume called Scattered Waters in which the images are made locally to me.
Mike
Andrew Tymon
4-Oct-2019, 04:31
I have six of Thomas's books too and found Refuge really disappointing, non of the printed pictures in the book are sharp. Some Rivers, some trees some rocks and some seas is probably my favorite, Shoshone Falls is good too. I loved the first two books since I found them at the Uni library in the 90's.
Do you mean the reproductions are poorly done and unsharp?
Or are the originals?
Or was intent of maker to make less sharp?
I have six of Thomas's books too and found Refuge really disappointing, non of the printed pictures in the book are sharp. Some Rivers, some trees some rocks and some seas is probably my favorite, Shoshone Falls is good too. I loved the first two books since I found them at the Uni library in the 90's.
I'd have to agree with Andrew, the quality of printing in Refuge is not the same as his other books.
It may be down to the quality of the paper.
Mike
Eric Biggerstaff
4-Oct-2019, 05:47
Which of his books would be a good introduction to his work?
Andrew Tymon
4-Oct-2019, 06:07
Do you mean the reproductions are poorly done and unsharp?
Or are the originals?
Or was intent of maker to make less sharp?
The reproductions are of poor quality he could have used a Holga.
Andrew Tymon
4-Oct-2019, 06:12
Which of his books would be a good introduction to his work?
I would say the Some Rivers, some trees, some rocks and some seas if you can get a used copy. Dreaming the Gokstadt is a fave too.
Eric Biggerstaff
4-Oct-2019, 07:45
Thanks!
As second gen Norsk, I will buy "Dreaming the Gokstadt" very interested in the old ships too.
Thanks!
I would say the Some Rivers, some trees, some rocks and some seas if you can get a used copy. Dreaming the Gokstadt is a fave too.
Jim Becia
4-Oct-2019, 15:50
I have six of Thomas's books too and found Refuge really disappointing, non of the printed pictures in the book are sharp. Some Rivers, some trees some rocks and some seas is probably my favorite, Shoshone Falls is good too. I loved the first two books since I found them at the Uni library in the 90's.
The new one I ordered is called “The World’s Edge” published by Prestel just this September. When I receive it, I’ll try to post a comment or two about it.
Somebody at The New Yorker should have read the article before it went to press. Egregious writing.
Authors usually get back to the subject of an article before publishing, and if this happened, and the author made any needed corrections, then Cooper is responsible for any BS in the article.
If the author screwed up, then Cooper should write a letter to the editor.
Worth writing a note the the editor of the New Yorker. They should do better.
Please see post #33
. . . .If you can't keep up, then yes, it can sound like BS.
It's the other way around -- those that cannot keep up often miss clues about validity, or lack thereof. Those that can, catch mistakes and lies. That is the reason for peer review in the sciences, for example.
Via the discussion here, it's clear to me now that BS is an accepted part of fine arts, and that's totally fine, especially if it makes a good story and truth does not matter. But much of the article dealt with travel, adventure, and discovery. Credibility is important for those aspects.
I never heard of TJC before this post, so I am just going by the New Yorker article, the You Tube video (which I did not get through, two hours of life I would never get back), and what was on the Lannan Foundation.
But as the saying goes, there's often a pony at the bottom of a manure pile, and I imagine people that know him have seen plenty of ponies. I am missing that, but there is only so much time in one life.
Peter Lewin
4-Oct-2019, 19:23
When you look on Amazon for books by TJC, you find a lot of monographs for someone accused of feeding the New Yorker writer a lot of BS. I'm not familiar with his work (other than images I have now found via Google on the internet, some of which I have liked and some not so much), and am working through the video bit by bit (2 hours at one sitting is more than I want to devote to staring at my iMac) but to the extent we can judge someone by their output, he seems to be the real thing.
Which of his books would be a good introduction to his work?
I have Dreaming the Gokstadt and also Between Dark and Dark(1985), which is excellent.
Hugo Zhang
4-Oct-2019, 20:57
I read my New Yorker today and watched the video. I like him and it is a bit unbelievable he could find financial backers for his trips which lasted a few weeks and costed $250,000 to $300,000 per trip.
"True" is a more substantial book than many of the others and the quality or printing is as good as "Between Dark and Dark" and "Dreaming the Gokstadt".
Mike
Andrew Tymon
5-Oct-2019, 04:51
The new one I ordered is called “The World’s Edge” published by Prestel just this September. When I receive it, I’ll try to post a comment or two about it.
I'm waiting for my copy too. I'm a bit apprehensive as the publisher is Prestel the same one who did refuge. I hope it's nothing like their previous effort.
When you look on Amazon for books by TJC, you find a lot of monographs for someone accused of feeding the New Yorker writer a lot of BS. I'm not familiar with his work (other than images I have now found via Google on the internet, some of which I have liked and some not so much), and am working through the video bit by bit (2 hours at one sitting is more than I want to devote to staring at my iMac) but to the extent we can judge someone by their output, he seems to be the real thing.
Gosh, I wish volume of output and truth were always positively correlated.
But that does not mean TJC's books cannot be interesting, especially if they are mainly pictures that speak for themselves.
What does 'truth' have to do with art?
Is fiction ever truth?
Does every story have to be verifiable?
Some here and elsewhere believe the photographer, is that wrong?
Gosh, I wonder what you are really saying!
Is the New Yorker news?
Gosh, I wish volume of output and truth were always positively correlated.
But that does not mean TJC's books cannot be interesting, especially if they are mainly pictures that speak for themselves.
(?)I don't BS. Imply that, and welcome to my Ignore list. Hopefully you were not. It always amazes me how dazed urbanites can be about rough n tumble outdoor lifestyles that are quite predictable to a different demographic - maybe not big view cameras in their packs, but things equally adventurous. But if someone does appear gullible "around the campfire", somebody is going to accommodate them.
No implication, but rather a definite yes, at least once in a while, on some topics that I have experience with.
I don't mind being on your ignore list, although it is hard to see how you would benefit from this, as you would not be aware of comments you might rectify.
Regarding the dazed urbanites, maybe that was just a general denigration, but I don't even live in a town, never mind a city, but you live in San Fransisco. The Teton Range is just to the east of my home, and there are plenty of world-class adventurers around here, so i know what they could be up to. Sometimes i go along with them.
Drew Wiley
6-Oct-2019, 15:27
I don't live in SF, never did. I worked there briefly a long time ago. And you just relocated to somewhere downtown in my Ignore list. I don't keep grudges, so it will be temporary. Then you can move back to Jackson Hole, which has a population about a thousand times larger than where I grew up and held property most of my life. Don't get me wrong. Wyoming and adjacent southern Idaho (where you apparently are) are stunning. I just don't care for the touristification of the Jackson area itself. Reminds me of Mammoth out here, or Park City in UT.
What does 'truth' have to do with art?
Is fiction ever truth?
Does every story have to be verifiable?
Some here and elsewhere believe the photographer, is that wrong?
Gosh, I wonder what you are really saying!
Is the New Yorker news?
I am saying pretty much the same thing you just did.
I don't live in SF, never did. I worked there briefly a long time ago. And you just relocated to somewhere downtown in my Ignore list. I don't keep grudges, so it will be temporary. Then you can move back to Jackson Hole, which has a population about a thousand times larger than where I grew up and held property most of my life. Don't get me wrong. Wyoming and adjacent southern Idaho (where you apparently are) are stunning. I just don't care for the touristification of the Jackson area itself. Reminds me of Mammoth out here, or Park City in UT.
Although you may not see this reply, I have never lived in Jackson Hole, so i cannot "move back there". I don't mind being on your ignore list, and I am sorry about getting your residence wrong -- the SF Bay area versus SF itself. Jackson has been a tourist town since the early 1900's; it's just a lot bigger now.
My responses may have been somewhat cryptic to at least some of you, and I am sorry for that.
Maybe this post will clarify what I am trying to say, why I am saying it, and finally end this part of the discussion.
First, my profession and background is in the sciences, so I naturally expect sincere attempts at the truth when it matters. I don't think it matters for art, but do think it matters for claims of new knowledge or actual experiences. The New Yorker article had a lot of content about experiences -- namely travel, geographic discoveries, etc., and even used the phrase "new knowledge".
Second, my work and leisure time takes me into many remote areas, so I know a fair amount about travel in such areas, including first ascents in climbing, and first descents in skiing. Many years ago I had a job rigging and fixing sailboats, which involved some sailing to test and deliver boats, but I am hardly an expert sailor.
Most of my photography has a documentary purpose and is work-related, so I rarely post images on LFPF because the images would be boring to just about anyone with an artistic bent. The images are in other public domains, so people see them that way.
As to Tin Can's recent questions:
What does 'truth' have to do with art?
Not much, if any
Is fiction ever truth?
Not usually, except by rare coincidence
Does every story have to be verifiable?
No, but those that seem to be a true account of something should be verifiable, if the story is important enough.
Some here and elsewhere believe the photographer, is that wrong?
No, but it would be wrong for me to believe some of what he is saying, based on my experience and judgement.
Gosh, I wonder what you are really saying!
See above.
Is the New Yorker news?
Some of it is, some of it is entertainment The TJC article was a profile article. The author mainly has to put together an engaging story and present the quotes, or paraphrased statements, correctly. It's up to the reader to make their own judgements about it. Someone PM'd me about this, and it makes sense; I have been the subject in several media articles, and this was the process in my experience.
Why did I even start posting on this? Simply put, some of the statements, and the lack of internal consistency in the story, struck me as outrageous or ludicrous. That was my take on it. As a scientist, it is hard not to look at things logically and rationally, just as an artist has a natural sense of aesthetics. After the fact, I know it may have been insulting to those that know TJC, but still, that was my reaction.
Now that I know that the truth is not important to everyone, I will think twice before posting about anything that involves the truth. Think twice, post once, that will be my guiding principle.
Thanks to all for your patience, and by the way, I plan on getting one of TJC's books, the one about Shoshone Falls.
I think you will enjoy Shoshone Falls, it's beautifully printed and a homage to Timothy H O'Sullivan.
At the end of the day, the article mentioned in the OP was just that.....an article about a photographer. What we don't know is how much of what was written was (or was not) told to the writer by the photographer.
It may be that none of the contents were passed on from TJC, but as someone who has followed TJC for many years, i do recognise many of the anecdotes.
It's unrealistic to expect TJC to monitor and correct all writings about him......i know that he does not frequent social media or even use email......so it may be that he is relatively "blind" to many of these types of articles.
Regardless of whether we believe everything that is published is accurate, we must appreciate and recognise that this article has brought a great photographic talent to a much wider audience.
Mike
...
Now that I know that the truth is not important to everyone, I will think twice before posting about anything that involves the truth. Think twice, post once, that will be my guiding principle.,,,
Truth is important to most. After Sputnik, I was identified as scientist material and put on that path forcibly. Post HS I rejected my potential employers. Raised in MN, I spent most of my free time outside in all weather. We made boats, we sailed Gitche Gumee, a stern mistress as I learned. Hunted and fished for food while camping in 4 seasons. Childhood.
No 'art' allowed, seen or heard. Yet, I was creating at an early age in secret. As adult I worked the longest in science based test laboratories, 30 years as foreman at night so we could get something done outside the babble of technical fools.
I also became interested in arcane science as a believer in transformational metaphysics over time.
I am very careful with truth and respect explorers of all territories. Elon Musk for one.
Sometimes I bring folk with me.
As for 'documenting' with LF, isn't that exactly what photography does? I made a document that was not popular this year. 2 minutes to Midnight (https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?147084-2018-2019-8X10-11X14-Print-Exchange-begins-today&p=1491687&viewfull=1#post1491687) posted in the '2018/2019 8X10/11X14 Print Exchange begins today' LFPF thread.
I consider it my best Truth this year...
At the end of the day, the article mentioned in the OP was just that.....an article about a photographer. What we don't know is how much of what was written was (or was not) told to the writer by the photographer.
It may be that none of the contents were passed on from TJC, but as someone who has followed TJC for many years, i do recognise many of the anecdotes.
It's unrealistic to expect TJC to monitor and correct all writings about him......i know that he does not frequent social media or even use email......so it may be that he is relatively "blind" to many of these types of articles.
Regardless of whether we believe everything that is published is accurate, we must appreciate and recognise that this article has brought a great photographic talent to a much wider audience.
Mike
Did you read the article? The author, Dana Goodyear uses the phrases "He said. . .", "He told me. . . ., Cooper told me" and other indicators of a direct conversation with TJC many times. The photographs of TJC are from a New Yorker photographer, and Dana clearly traveled with TJC along the California coast while interviewing him.
TJC may not be bothered with looking over articles about him, but he admits in the article that he has had a very limited audience, so it's not for an overwhelming burden of interviews that he would pass on an inspection.
All of my experience with journalists, in print and TV, has been good -- they always get the message across, and the quotes were accurate. I think that Dana Goodyear would do a competent job as well, and her reporting is accurate.
Truth is important to most. After Sputnik, I was identified as scientist material and put on that path forcibly. Post HS I rejected my potential employers. Raised in MN, I spent most of my free time outside in all weather. We made boats, we sailed Gitche Gumee, a stern mistress as I learned. Hunted and fished for food while camping in 4 seasons. Childhood.
No 'art' allowed, seen or heard. Yet, I was creating at an early age in secret. As adult I worked the longest in science based test laboratories, 30 years as foreman at night so we could get something done outside the babble of technical fools.
I also became interested in arcane science as a believer in transformational metaphysics over time.
I am very careful with truth and respect explorers of all territories. Elon Musk for one.
Sometimes I bring folk with me.
As for 'documenting' with LF, isn't that exactly what photography does? I made a document that was not popular this year. 2 minutes to Midnight (https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?147084-2018-2019-8X10-11X14-Print-Exchange-begins-today&p=1491687&viewfull=1#post1491687) posted in the '2018/2019 8X10/11X14 Print Exchange begins today' LFPF thread.
I consider it my best Truth this year...
Sorry to hear about your not-so-good experience with scientists; I have had my share as well.
I get what you mean about documenting with photography. An X-ray is documentation, and could be quite interesting to a few people, but not to most others. Lately, my work is more like X-ray photos, and not very artistic. I may post a few anyway -- some are quite scenic from the wilds of Wyoming, re-takes of scenes photographed a century or more ago. Matching tripod holes and lighting to meet scientific objectives.
Yes, I read the article several times and enjoyed it.
I focus the shiny ball of Science, my problem lies with appropriation and control.
Today participating, OCT and Ophthalmology in the Age of Artificial Intelligence (https://www.photonics.com/Webinars/OCT_and_Ophthalmology_in_the_Age_of_Artificial/w193).
We do live in interesting times.
Mark Crabtree
8-Oct-2019, 08:07
I waited for my issue to come to read the article. I finished it yesterday and thoroughly enjoyed it. Cooper's images remind me in many ways of Minor White's work. Cooper does cite White as an inspiration, but the connections to places and human exploration make Cooper's images a bit more accessible, or maybe relevant, to my literal mindedness. It is kind of funny that I would like to say they are more grounded, except of course, there is very little ground to be seen.
Andrew Tymon
11-Oct-2019, 15:05
I received my copy of " The World's Edge" today. It's a hefty volume and the printing way better than "Refuge". There are about four essays and lots of pictures, some I have never seen before. Overall I'm pleased. I got my copy through Amazon and was cheaper than the recommended price.
That's good to hear Andrew.
My copy is on it's way too.
Mike
Andrew Tymon
12-Oct-2019, 04:10
I think you wil be pleased Mike.
Yep, my copy arrived earlier today and the print quality is much better than Refuges.
Mike
Tin Can
12-Oct-2019, 11:20
Where was it printed?
Yep, my copy arrived earlier today and the print quality is much better than Refuges.
Mike
Printed and bound in Italy, same as Refuge.
Mike
Tin Can
12-Oct-2019, 11:32
Thank you
Printed and bound in Italy, same as Refuge.
Mike
Steven Ruttenberg
15-Oct-2019, 21:37
I get the impression it was told as a romantic adventure story so to speak. Ie, it wasn't meant to be a straight, literal telling of ones life work. If it were, it would be a very antiseptic and boring story. Imagine the story of a US Marine on Guadalcanal or Okinawa during WWII. Sure, we could tell the story exactly as happened. Got in landing craft, approached island, door flung open, bullets came in killed most everyone in landing craft, I made it to the beach, then made it inland lost a lot of friends.
Or, the story could be told to convey the emotions, fears, etc of the Marines as they prepared, landed, fought and died to take a rock in the South Pacific that most likely no one would ever visit or give a sh&t about after the war. The story for those involved are so much more than the sterile telling of the facts, especially for those who lived it. Would all of it be a literal fact? Most likely not, but from the emotional impact, it would be and it would still be accurate to the telling of the heroism and sacrifice of those Marines and the contribution they provided to protecting the US Constitution and the citizens of the US and of the people and their way of life around the globe.
So is this story a literal truth? Not really, rather a romantic telling of facts that were embellished to hopefully put the reader in his shoes.
Or, its just pure bullshit.
It is a story long in the making. Thomas has had to sell this story many times over the years in order to get funding and all of that. How can it not get romantized in his own mind? A touch of Don Quixote, tossed in with a strong artistic vision, an active mind, and skilled. I saw a mutual friend of Thomas' at the local COOP today (not surprisingly, she works there). I trust her photographic judgement, she was greatly impressed with Thomas' present show in LA...I do not think I can make it that far south in time.
Here is a video of Thomas talking about his work (along with the curator of the show in the video). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifzatCLgTZs
He confuses Antartica and Arctic a couple times.
I get the impression it was told as a romantic adventure story so to speak. Ie, it wasn't meant to be a straight, literal telling of ones life work. If it were, it would be a very antiseptic and boring story. Imagine the story of a US Marine on Guadalcanal or Okinawa during WWII. Sure, we could tell the story exactly as happened. Got in landing craft, approached island, door flung open, bullets came in killed most everyone in landing craft, I made it to the beach, then made it inland lost a lot of friends.
Or, the story could be told to convey the emotions, fears, etc of the Marines as they prepared, landed, fought and died to take a rock in the South Pacific that most likely no one would ever visit or give a sh&t about after the war. The story for those involved are so much more than the sterile telling of the facts, especially for those who lived it. Would all of it be a literal fact? Most likely not, but from the emotional impact, it would be and it would still be accurate to the telling of the heroism and sacrifice of those Marines and the contribution they provided to protecting the US Constitution and the citizens of the US and of the people and their way of life around the globe.
So is this story a literal truth? Not really, rather a romantic telling of facts that were embellished to hopefully put the reader in his shoes.
Or, its just pure bullshit.
Emotion is fine and interesting, but dramatic stories do not need to be so embellished that they become non-factual. When I see a lot of obvious embellishment or outright lies, I start to doubt the whole story.
TJC's story about his trip to Prime Head is a good example. His claims of uncharted waters, sounding from a dinghy, three weeks to get there, finding new islands, etc. is total BS, or the ship captain who took him was incredibly inept.
With just a little searching, it is easy to see that:
1. Edward Bransfield charted part of the AP in 1820; I don't know when it was completely charted. The nearby South Shetland Islands were charted in 1829 to 1830. The Bransfield Straight is regularly traveled by cruise ships -- hardly uncharted or a place where no rescue ships would go as TJC claims, and it is about 6000 feet deep -- no sounding needed. One particular cruise ship route passes very close to Prime Head. Please see the map at https://www.polarcruises.com/antarctica/ships/expedition-ships/plancius-antarctica/antarctic-peninsula-%E2%80%93-antarctic-pioneering Prime Head is near the bend in the route at the Antarctic Sound -- scroll down to see the map.
2. There are two permanently inhabited research stations (Base General Bernardo O'Higgins Riquelme, and Base Esperanza) within 20 miles of Prime Head, so it would be a 20-mile trip along the coast, and even less overland from one of them (Esperanza), to Prime Head. In a cruise ship, it takes about two days to cross the Drake Passage to either of these places (probably 4 to 5 days with a sailboat). Some of the tourist trips use Zodiacs (motorized rafts) to get to the uninhabited Antarctic shore to look at penguins etc. and for photography. Maybe TJC was the 9th person to go to Prime Head, but it is probably not because of difficult access. The research stations have been around for over 65 years. I had an adventurous aunt who took pictures all over, and she went to Antarctica in the late 1960's. She showed us the pictures, and that was good enough.
Of course the Drake Passage is a crazy wind-tossed place, and the Antarctic Coast is quite rugged in places, but many people go to the Antarctic Peninsula every year, for a fraction of the cost and time that TJC supposedly took. The gross exaggeration ruins the story for me. There are plenty of true dramatic stories out there, so there is no need to make them up except for self aggrandizement.
Jim Galli
20-Oct-2019, 17:57
For me, it's all the fuss about a 5X7 Agfa that wouldn't fetch $85 on Ebay. Told to the unknowing to make them swoon at such a thing. Grandson of the original owner. How marvelous.
I am taught and believe it's true that if the pictures were installed in a room without the story, they have to carry themselves. If I walked through that room without all the superfluous baloney, I doubt I'd be moved. Rather like the 100 year Ansel book I have with a thousand pictures of pine trees in Kings Canyon that all begin to look the same.
Not sure I'm entitled to an opinion, but that never did much to stop me before.....
John Layton
20-Oct-2019, 19:00
I have to agree with Jim G. TJC's images really did not move me in the least - until his voice appeared in the New Yorker piece...telling us his story and what moves him to do what he does. Powerful on one hand...empty on another. It would have been interesting to have TJC reflect on this, and I am both surprised and disappointed that the New Yorker apparently dropped the ball here. Then again...this piece was not a critique.
Hugo Zhang
20-Oct-2019, 19:22
What puzzled me is that he took only one picture at one place which led me to think the whole expedition experience was more important than the ultimate image which most other serious photographers are seeking.
Well, I am going to see his show later this month and see what this is all about. BTW, I have read the New Yorker profile twice and watched his video. Quite an interesting character! Paid $3.99 for one of his used books with Paul: Dialogue With Photography and these interviews are not bad.
What puzzled me is that he took only one picture at one place which led me to think the whole expedition experience was more important than the ultimate image which most other serious photographers are seeking.
I've thought about that aspect of his work for a while, but anyone using sheet film as their medium will (by the very nature of using sheet film) be using one sheet/image at a time. We only have TJC's word that one image is made at each location.
If you take a cynical look, you would need to define "location". There are a number of places around me that i visit regularly where i could create many images from within a few footsteps. If i said they were from different "locations", who could argue with me, other than those who know those locations intimately? If you tell people that your images are made in unusual locations like Antarctica.....few would be able to refute those claims. If i dig out an image of (say) Half-Dome........everyone knows where it is and that it is Half-Dome. If you look at some of TJC's images, can you tell whether it was taken off the rocky shores of Scotland or the rocky shores of an uninhabited island on an Antarctic peninsula....because i couldn't.
I have to agree with Jim too......there seems to be a lot of romanticism attached to the fact that he uses an 1898 Ansco......i'm pretty sure there are many in this place who use even older cameras.
I wish i could visit the exhibition to see the real prints as he has undoubtedly had an influence on my work. I'll hopefully get to see some of his work if/when he exhibits in Scotland.
Mike
Hugo Zhang
21-Oct-2019, 07:13
I didn't state it clearly enough: he would travel many days or weeks to a location and make a single exposure. Just one exposure.
Andrew Tymon
21-Oct-2019, 08:22
I didn't state it clearly enough: he would travel many days or weeks to a location and make a single exposure. Just one exposure.
I think it's more he never makes a backup negative. He may make other pictures at the location but if the neg screws up so be it. It's hard for me to comprehend too, he made a vow April 1st 1969 to only shoot outdoors and to only make one negative.
Andrew Tymon
21-Oct-2019, 09:00
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://stunik.com/vu/DFAP/ThomasJoshuaCooper.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjiqbvA263lAhWGjFkKHapYCToQFjAHegQICRAB&usg=AOvVaw0nBoNRPIdlAfg2V_Pb6A3O
I think this should lead to a pdf download of an essay on TJC.
Tin Can
21-Oct-2019, 09:53
It does, I quit after 1/2 of it. Wordy
Addressing 60's Art some forget LSD was used extensively at that time and only became illegal in USA 1968. Many were dosed without their knowledge. Ken Kesey documented it. (https://origins.osu.edu/milestones/december-2015-acid-tests)
Now Ayahuasca is au-currant and similar, NYT 3 days ago.Taking Ayahuasca When You’re a Senior Citizen
(https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/17/style/ayahuasca-senior-citizen.html)
No thanks, give me what Aldous Huxley (http://www.openculture.com/2018/09/aldous-huxley-dying-cancer-left-world-tripping-lsd-experiencing-serene-beautiful-death-1963.html) died with.
Opium dreams were once a writer's muse.
Now the drug of favor is Fentanyl, perhaps an artistic revelation for our times.
I vastly prefer the dreamlike tales and few images of TJC to the harsh reality of twitting instant selfies.
But then I am a child of the 60's.
I did inhale...
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://stunik.com/vu/DFAP/ThomasJoshuaCooper.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjiqbvA263lAhWGjFkKHapYCToQFjAHegQICRAB&usg=AOvVaw0nBoNRPIdlAfg2V_Pb6A3O
I think this should lead to a pdf download of an essay on TJC.
Torontoamateur
14-Nov-2019, 06:07
Eccentric and self indulgent Psuedo Intellectual. Let him enjoy He is great entertainment.
Drew Wiley
14-Nov-2019, 14:56
Writes like just another windbag trying to impress other wannabee artistes who overcompensate for what they never really possessed to begin with.
I think you wil be pleased Mike.
The above quote was about the book Shoshone Falls.
I ordered and received one, and I am done with it. I would donate it to the Twin Falls, Idaho library (near Shoshone Falls), but they already have two copies. I figure someone here (within this thread) may want a copy for cheap. It was advertised as used, and I guess it was, but it seemed brand new in shrink-wrap. Anyway, it's in excellent shape. If anyone is interested in obtaining my copy -- please PM me.
Mark Sampson
14-Nov-2019, 15:59
The NY article was interesting... the artist surely is obsessed, and found people to finance his (very expensive) project. That alone is no small accomplishment. Not to mention actually completing the project.
I would like to see the exhibit in LA, just to answer the question. Can you appreciate the photographs as art without knowing the legend? Or is the legend the point, and are the photographs just illustrations? A common saying about art is "nobody cares how hard it was to make". I wonder if the difficulty and persistence is indeed the point of this work. I don't see getting to LA any time soon so I'll probably never know.
Tin Can
14-Nov-2019, 16:06
Perhaps Cooper's quest is the art and he gains most
Zen Master
Andrew Tymon
14-Nov-2019, 16:09
[QUOTE=mmerig;1524611]The above quote was about the book Shoshone Falls
Actually I was responding to someone else about Cooper's latest book.
Have you seen this? http://www.markklettphotography.com/rephotographic-survey-project
[QUOTE=mmerig;1524611]The above quote was about the book Shoshone Falls
Actually I was responding to someone else about Cooper's latest book.
Have you seen this? http://www.markklettphotography.com/rephotographic-survey-project
Thanks for the clarification; I confused your response with mpirie's post #49.
By the way, I am familiar with Mark Klett's work, mainly the "Third View, second sights".
I have a similar, ongoing project in NW Wyoming, with about 190 scene repeats so far, and will likely finish up with about 250 scenes, 85 of which are second-view and third-views. The second-views (first repeats) were from George Gruell's work in the late 1960's and early 1970's.
Andrew Tymon
15-Nov-2019, 05:16
[QUOTE=Andrew Tymon;1524626]
Thanks for the clarification; I confused your response with mpirie's post #49.
By the way, I am familiar with Mark Klett's work, mainly the "Third View, second sights".
I have a similar, ongoing project in NW Wyoming, with about 190 scene repeats so far, and will likely finish up with about 250 scenes, 85 of which are second-view and third-views. The second-views (first repeats) were from George Gruell's work in the late 1960's and early 1970's.
Sounds like an engaging project and lots of work. I saw one of the pair's of images you shared, it's always interesting to see what does and doesn't change. Have you been able to utilize technology to help you find the point of view of the original images? I tried to obtain a copy of Second views it was too expensive for a used book. I guess there is always the library.
[QUOTE=mmerig;1524628]
Sounds like an engaging project and lots of work. I saw one of the pair's of images you shared, it's always interesting to see what does and doesn't change. Have you been able to utilize technology to help you find the point of view of the original images? I tried to obtain a copy of Second views it was too expensive for a used book. I guess there is always the library.
Mark Klett has a website http://thirdview.org/3v/rephotos/index.html for his Third View work, but you probably know about this.
Often, I use Google Earth to help me find the camera station/stand-point, but I usually know the approximate location beforehand. I transfer the stand-point location to a topo map, and sometimes I'll enter the point location on a GPS if I think I will be in thick trees. Google Earth can also help with time-of day, but I can usually guess this with shadow direction and length, and make sure i am there early. Also, I print the original photo at 9.5 inches on the long-side, and use a grid on a transparency that overlays the photo that matches the grid on my ground glass. The matching is usually approximate, as I use a wider-angled lens to make sure I capture the entire original image, and often the format ratios are different. I do some estimations in my head to adjust for the differences. I am usually within 5 feet of the original standpoint. Centering both images is important. Another option is to use a digital camera and a laptop/pad and scanned original image to make sure the location is correct before using the film set-up (or just use the digital set-up). I did not do this for cost and weight reasons. Many of the standpoints are in remote areas and my pack is big enough as it is, and having expensive digital gear along (which I don't have anyway), especially when using unpredictable pack stock, was too risky.
Here is an example showing the original scene, a re-take, and the Google Earth version.
https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?127190-anybody-recognize-this-place-(probably-California)&p=1298129#post1298129
The Tripod Holes thread has some repeat photography, and I will add some images now and then.
The local LA Times art critic's take on the show(s). https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/story/2019-11-11/thomas-joshua-cooper-lacma-hauser-wirth-gallery
Tin Can
17-Nov-2019, 16:15
Like I said, his Art is actually internal
we are bugs on a wall
Drew Wiley
17-Nov-2019, 16:47
The LA Times review doesn't inspire me much either, but it does mention Hiroshi Sujimoto, who really deserves credit it seems for coming up with the genre of minimalist seascapes etc which have been so frequently mimicked. And I wouldn't demean the power of bugs on a wall. Once the rainy season starts up here, I'll have to contend with bugs on my own walls outnumbering me 15,000:1, and that's after my wife eradicates the first 20,000 little invaders.
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