Plate / Clamp system, which is best for LF

[bglick]

For years, I have been seeking the ultimate plate/clamp system for LF cameras. Specially big cameras, whereas when you are seating the camera on the tripod head, and you can NOT see what is happening below.

The best I have found so far, is the bogen Hexagon system with quick release clamp. The reason I like this type of system is, you have an initial spring loaded clamp to assist in blindly seating the camera plate into the clamp. Even though it will jiggle, it will not fall out. Then, you simply tighten the lever for a tight hold.

Now, this is good, however, it's not flawless. You can seat the hex plate into the clamp, feel the spring loaded clamp engage, then tighten the lever, and think everything is secure. However, since you did not visualy see this occur, a small % of the time, the hex plate "edges" on one side of the hex, can be clamped to the "edges" of the clamp, i.e. plate is NOT fully seated / secure. Then, you are operating under a false sense of security. Everything feels tight, but if you pick up the tripod to change composure, the camera can easily fall out - OUCH!

The beveled edge concept, also employed on Arca style clamps, in most cases, forces the plate into the clamp if not properly positioned by the user. And most often this does occur and the benefit of bevel design is appreciated. This beveled design is extra insurance the clamp will properly seat the plate when the user does not fully seat the plate on all sides. However, when failure occurs, as described above, the user has no means of sensing this failure, other then visual inspection, which we all get lazy and overconfident and do not employ consistently. It would be nice if the lever would NOT clamp tight if the plate is NOT fully seated in the clamp. This would let us know, there is a problem, re seat, look visualy, etc. In a counterproductive subconcious level, the beveled edges create too much confidence as they work properly 98%+ of the time, but the lack of a fail safe sytem has caused some catastrophes.

Any other plate / clamp systems out today that solves these issues? I thought Really Right Stuff (RRS) would have licked this problem, but they haven't.

TYIA

[David A. Goldfarb]

I like Arca-Swiss style plates and clamps, but with or without a clamp, I often find it easiest to tilt the tripod head forward to the position it would be in if the camera were pointing straight down and then attach the camera, so I don't have to do it blind.

On the 11x14" flatbed, though, I haven't found a QR system that works for me yet. I might have some sort of custom plate made, maybe 4x6" that screws into the camera bed and has an Arca-style dovetail.

On my Tech V, I've got a short plate on the body and a longer plate on the bed, so that with a long clamp, I can slide the camera from one plate to the other, both to improve the balance of the camera on the tripod and to use as an ersatz macro rail.

[Paul Butzi]

Really Right Stuff are good - they are good to do business with, have fine products, prompt delivery. But they are making clamps and plates that are conformant to the Arca-Swiss style of quick release. They make them in a nearly infinite array of sizes, including many made to fit specific cameras and lenses. But they're just very well made Arca-Swiss style plates and clamps.

The trick to using the Arca-Swiss style of clamp and plate is to NOT open the clamp up fully and then drop the camera (and plate) down into the clamp from the top.

Instead, open the clamp only enough to allow the dovetail plate to slide in the clamp, then slide the camera/plate out lengthwise. When mounting, tip the camera up so you can see the end of the plate and the clamp, and align them, then slide the plate lengthwise into the clamp until you hit the safety stop at the end of the plate, then tighten the clamp.

This prevents the problem of tightening the clamp with the plate askew, as you describe.

Really Right Stuff plates have rounded corners to make it easier to get the plate into the clamp using this technique.

I've been using Arca-Swiss style clamps and plates (from both Really Right Stuff and Kirk) for more than a decade, and I've never had failure due to the 'plate tipped' scenario you describe.

[Harley Goldman]

I don't think this will apply to Bill, but if you are getting a ballhead with a clamp system and you own an Arca camera, do not get a lever clamp system. The Arca rail does not fit. You need to get the screw knob type tightening system. It does not make sense, since the systems are all "Arca compatible", but that is the way it is.

[Frank Petronio]

Second that - the "quick" lever clamps for the Arca system are not as relaible or compatible as the old screw knobs.

If you really want luxury, invest in an Arca-Swiss camera and slide the entire assembly into the clamping system. For that feature alone it is worth it - infinitely adjustable and very solid.

I don't think the Arca system is perfect but there is none better. I tend to favor the Kirk plates over RRS because RRS never keeps their plates in stock. I used to feel bad, thinking that Kirk was a knock off of the RRS, but then I realized that RRS is simply piggybacking off Arca. Arca never got around to improving their plates properly...

[Ted Harris]

I have tried the Bogen system .... almost had the tipover disaster a few times so I switched to the Horseman system .... totally solid but the clamps weigh more than some of the cameras I wanted to use 'em on ..... so I gave in and went to the Arca system, that was some 10 years ago and I have not looked back. I have an assortment of plates, some from Arca and a bunch from small, no name shops that just do goo dCNC machining and turn out fine plain vanilla plates at a reasonable cost. No complaints.

[clay harmon]

Dick Arentz turned me on to the Cine 60 QR head. This is the one that they use on TV/Movie cameras. It is very fast and easy to use, and can hold my 12x20 tilted over at 90 degrees. They occasionally pop up on ebay. They are also amazingly light considering the amount of weight they will handle.

[Paul Kent]

Follow-up to Harley's comment: the problem with "Arca-compatible" lever clamp systems is small variations in the dimensions of the dovetail plates between different manufacturers. The genuine Arca Swiss lever clamp (that I own) is adjustable via a thumb wheel, and should be able to cope with the variations. Obviously, their clamp fits their camera rails.The Really Right Stuff (RRS) clamp is not adjustable, and so has problems with a few plates/rails. The friendly RRS folks highlight this on their webpage.

I worry about the longevity of the Arca lever clamp, although I have had no problems, since the lever feels weak. The RRS clamp appears more solidly built, but is not adjustable.

[bglick]

Paul, I like your system of sliding the plate into the Arca clamp vs. dropping plate in from above... this eliminates the "edge on edge" mishap. For most cameras this is easy and much safer, of course. But, as a side note, you must surrender use of RRS's set screws on the plates, which prevent the forward / rearward movement once the plate is dropped in from above. This is a nice safety feature, it is used on my Wimberly Gimbal head, which already saved one catastrophe when someone was using my gear.

But for 810 cameras (non rail type) this method is troublesome. I set the tripod height so that I can see the ground glass without bending or standing on my toe tips, therefore, the camera plate is being seated about chest level. Now, try to hold the awkward camera, then bend your body almost 90 degrees to see it slide in the clamp..... not easy..... without visualization, lots of misses. Hence why the Bogen Hex "drop in" system is still easier, albeit with some risks, IMO, with large box type cameras.

This just made me think.... possibly a modified Arca clamp with a new technique would be ideal. Install a stop on one end of the Arca style clamp, which now allows for one sided entry only. Then, tilt the ball head, or tripod head, 90 degrees with open entry side facing the sky. Slide the camera plate into the clamp with lens down. (this is for easy removal, i.e. pulling camera rear towards you) It's all visual and no human acrobatics required. The plate is now secure but not tight, however, both hands are NOW free and the camera is secure. Tighten clamp knob while still watching, then turn camera upright. To remove camera, just loosen knob and pull camera back towards you.

Hmmmmmm..... this may be the solution I have been looking for. With the Bogen Hex system, sideward entry would be nearly impossible. I am tired of bending over while trying to hold the camera atop the clamp. So a combination of Pauls suggestion of never fully opening the jaws, and my stop on one end of the clamp solves most all problems. EXCEPT, when removing the camera, if the camera is slightly tilted towards the ground and we don't realize it. It only takes a few degrees of tilt for a catastrophy to happen once the clamp is loosened. Quite often we are disoriented by not standing on level ground, not looking at level horizons, etc.

Ahhhh, a fix for this too.... the plate and the clamp can be machined with very thin opposing ridges (teeth), that will not bite on insertion direction, but will bite (lock) in removal direction. To remove plate, loosen clamp just enough to allow a slight "lift" of the plate from the clamp base, which will separate the ridges. This will require a tiny bit of extra precision during removal, but IMO the safety factor is well worth the tiny extra effort.

It seems this hybrid system (by hybrid, I mean, Pauls suggestion of never fully opening jaws, my suggestions of a clamp stop on one end, 90 degree head position for insertion and oppposing ridges on plate & clamp) will solve all the current problems....



1. Eliminates body bending during seating process.

2. Enables visual confirmation of BOTH insertion / clamping.

3. Once inserted, camera can be SEEN in safe position, AND both hands are free to tighten.

4. Much easier removal as camera can only move towards your body, vs. Hex system.

5. Safety ridges prevent accidental sliding after clamp is loosened. Which if inserted properly, with lens down, will only slide into your body. (I rather break a rib then drop my gear)



This would require minimal machining work vs. designing a new clamp / plate system. The only hitch I can think of, is the height of the ballhead or tripod head must be high enough, whereass in its 90 degree position, the camera body will not hit the tripod. Of course, you can always elect to use less then 90 degrees if the camera bumps the tripod. Any thoughts? Any additions?

If I elect to have this done, any suggestions on whose clamps / plates would be best to start with?

TYIA

[Paul Butzi]

All of my RRS and Kirk plates either have no safety stop, or have a stop at one end only. So I never have a problem sliding the plate in.

In general, I've found that since the weight of the camera is almost never symmetric left/right, when you loosen the clamp just a bit, the camera slumps sideways and thus is held by the clamp, even if the clamp is not tight.

With a plate that has the dovetail corners on the entry end rounded, it's possible to slip the plate into the clamp WITHOUT looking - that is, you just need to get one corner of the plate into the open end of the clamp, and the plate sort of guides itself into the clamp from there on.

If you're worried about cameras coming out of the clamp and falling, you might consider what the late Barry Sherman did - he had small cable tethers attached to the cameras that had a loop in the free end. He'd slip the loop over the tripod head, then mount the camera on the arca-swiss clamp on his B1. In the event that the camera slipped from the clamp, it would be caught by the tether before hitting the ground. When I asked Barry about it, he said it was just paranoia since he'd never had a camera slip from the clamp.

[Mike Long]

I just don't see the AS mount as a problem. Once you get used to it, it is very easy to drop the camera mount down into the bed and I just don't let go until I know it's secure. It only takes a second or two. I did use the Bogen hex plate on a 3047 that I had for years but didn't like it. So, I bought a mount with the hex plate base and an AS top. That way it would fit on the 3047 but clamp like the AS. Kirk plates have always been fine for me. The 4x5 plate is a 3 or 4 inch square. Solid as a rock but I'll bet it adds 1/2 lb to the camera. I have been toying with the idea of a Gitzo 2270M (I think that's right). I doubt I would get the QR but would get the long bed.

Mike

[Bill_1856]

For those using the Technika, how do you feel about the Linhof QR plate system?

[David A. Goldfarb]

Like anything Linhof it seems like a nicely built system, but my 2-plate sliding arrangement wouldn't work with it, and I like having Arca-style plates of various lengths on all my cameras that can work with all my tripods and stands and brackets.

[bglick]

Paul, I am not worried about the camera falling out of the plate once fully secure. Before I will go down and tether it, I can simply look to confirm a secure connection. All these clamping systems are pretty damn good once properly secure. My close calls always came on insertion and removal of camera. And I might add, mostly only on the Toyo 810MII, whereas it has all the problems I described above.

Mike....

> I just don't see the AS mount as a problem.

Well, I guess I can say the same thing, since I never had a catastrophe. But I do know of others who suffered catastrophes. It's sort of like a car accident, we hear about em, but never think they will happen to us, even though we may have had some close calls.

A lot of course depends on the camera your using. With cameras whereas I can see what I am doing, no problems exist with any clamp system, as I simply drop the plate into the clamp. Everything is in upright position whereas all is visible and if plate does not seat properly, I see it, and with no effort, correct it. This includes M7, Toyo Vx125 Rail system, 35mm systems, etc. However, I never found dropping the 810 on top of something I can't see as an easy task. The same for removal, one hand on clamp, one hand on 18 lbs worth of camera? It's troublesome, specially under extreme circumstances such as heat, cold, wind, bugs, bad footing, etc. Of course, its not impossible, as I have survived 6 years without a drop.... but I have not been in a car accident in 20 years, and I still elect to buy car insurance. :-)

As for the size of the bottom plate, I use a huge Bogen plate on the bottom of the 810 and also my Seitz 220VR, which is another box whereas nothing is visible on the bottom. However, this has nothing to do with the ability to safely secure the plate into the clamp. The bottom plate should be designed around the stability of the camera near the threaded connection.

[Mike Long]

Bill,

I can't say I look at it nor could I - easily anyway. It's all by feel. But I think the most important thing is my left hand stays on the camera strap until the camera is secure and almost unconsciously I try to lift it out of the QR. Good habits, I guess. My present camera is 3.5 lbs. However, I have extensive experience with a 600mm telephoto and therein might lie the "secret" - I am accustomed to carefully inserting and double checking before assuming it is secure.

Mike

[Scott Davis]

I like the Bogen hex plates for 4x5 and smaller - I haven't found any QR that works with my 8x10 though - the Bogen hex plate would seat nicely on the head, but the camera would very easily torque off the plate, so you could be moving around to the front to make a lens adjustment and the camera would suddenly swing in one direction, pivoting on the QR plate. This is VERY bad especially if you've already focused and loaded your film holder. I now use a non-QR head for my 8x10, and finally have a system (tripod + head) that is vibration free (Gitzo 1415 legs, no center column + 1570 low-profile pan/tilt head).

[Bob Eskridge]

I have never had nor used the Arca system. It seems to be excellent and secure for less bulky cameras. I have used the Bogen's hex and other systems. My interest is speed of mounting in addition to the other concerns mentioned. Some time ago someone on this forum or another mentioned the feeling of security of just using the captive screw of the head to screw the camera to the head for large cameras. He may have been referring specifically to the Ries head.

Several years ago for my Bush Pressman I made a "plate" of 1/4 in aluminum about three inches long and attached one end very securely to my tripod head. A second hole was made about 1 1/2 inches from the attachment point to the head for a screw to attach the camera. Also two pertruding nylon screws were added strategically in such a manner as to partially guide the camera on this plate so the holes of the plate and camera would match up. These nylon screws also serve to prevent twisting of the camera on the plate.

With this system, I can place the camera on top of the tripod/head assembly without looking and screw the camera to the plate using the captive screw which is already lined up with the camera. This has proven to be a very fast, secure, foolproof, cheap and lightweight aystem. The fact that the camera is moved from being directly over the tripod head is used to advantage since it moves the tripod head a little further forward on my Pressman for better balance. I have used this same head/plate assembly for other cameras with no adjustment necessary.

I have a Sinar Norma 5X7 which weighs 9 1/2 lbs but is rather tall and bulky. It is awkward to mount using Bogen's hex system and I have had near mishaps as described above. I surely don't want to have to try to handle the camera while attempting to slide it in an Arca style clamp.

For that reason, I have decided to copy my plate system for the Norma and am in the process of constructing a slightly larger plate (3 inches X 3 1/2 inches) to use when mounting the Sinar. It will offset the mounting position of the camera on my particular tripod head only 1 3/8 inches which can easily be compensated for with the sliding standards of the monorail camera rail.

In summary, while the Arca system may be the best "quick release"system overall followed by the Bogen's hex system there are good alternatives to these systems.

[Richard Schlesinger]

I have and use an Arca quick release on an Arca camera. It is a fine piece of equipment. Last week in Arizona the knob for closing/tightening the clamp disappeared. I wasn't aware it could just come off. I am now awaiting a replacement ($20.00). I would suggest all users of the Arca quick release keep an eye on the knob! Can't mount the camera without it.

[bglick]

Actually, there is a major problem with the big "flat bottom" cameras and Arca type clamps.... the circumfrence of the clamp knob is higher then the top of the clamp, therefore, when putting flat bottom cameras in clamp, there is almost no space between the knob and the bottom of the camera. The only solution would be, build a custom plate with added height, (which is not desireable as these plates get in the way), or build a new clamp system which is taller, and the knob can be placed lower, which will create space, to allow fingers to turn knob.

of course, if there a tiny bit of clearance, you can use finger tips and make several small turns, but I am shooting for something a bit better.

[tim atherton]

"Actually, there is a major problem with the big "flat bottom" cameras and Arca type clamps.... the circumfrence of the clamp knob is higher then the top of the clamp, therefore, when putting flat bottom cameras in clamp, there is almost no space between the knob and the bottom of the camera. The only solution would be, build a custom plate with added height, (which is not desireable as these plates get in the way), or build a new clamp system which is taller, and the knob can be placed lower, which will create space, to allow fingers to turn knob. "

you can also order replacement knobs from a couple of places, with a lower profile, which solve this problem - did this a few years ago for my Arca B1 - works just fine on the big "lat bottomed" 8x10's I've used with it.

(on my Acratech head, the clamp/knob design also alleviates this problem)

I think you can also order third-party parts which solve the "knob falling off problem" - which you need to be careful of, because you can also lose the tapered tube that is the next part in line).

[Ed Richards]

> the Bogen hex plate would seat nicely on the head, but the camera would very easily torque off the plate

The current plates (I do not know when this started) have some set screws in the bottom that can be tighened against the bottom of the camera to lock things down, assuming you have a solid bottom to tighten against. Combined with some locktite on the camera screw, esp the 3/8 one, it can be very stable - as long as you do not want to remove.

[Richard Schlesinger]

Where can one order replacement knobs that get around the 'falling off' problem? Arca makes a newer/different model with a cam lock, but apparently conversion is not possible. Some way to make the knob captive on the shaft would certainly be welcome.

[Paul Moshay]

I use the Bogen 3047 heads on my Bogen camera stand in the studio and on the Majestic tripods in the field. At first,12 years ago, I had the newer snap lock style but quickly found that no matter how hard I locked the clamp lever the camera would swivel when the film holder was inserted, especially when it was in landscape format. I feel it would take an automotive valve spring to securely hold the clamp locked, then it would be impossible to manually actuate it! I quickly sold the new 3047 and bought 6 of the older versions that use a screw clamp to lock the camera. I now have used them for all the cameras up to the Toyo 8x10 an have never felt insecure with them. You do have to be careful, as others have mentioned, to be sure that the hex plate is securely in the head, but that comes naturally when you remember the sound of a camera hitting the ground.

Paul

[Struan Gray]

My winter project is to finally take some pictures with my 12x15" ULF camera. One of the many challenges is how to mount it on my tripod in a convenient way. It has a 16" square baseboard and puts big torques on any standard quick-release, especially the skinny Arca ones. Since I have a Gitzo 3-series tripod, the simplest way is to hard-mount a tripod top-plate to the base of the camera, and use the tripod's crown-mounting bolt as a quick release. My quick release handle is a 10 mm spanner.

The next stage is to get a levelling base, which will give me rotation and 15° of movement up and down. I have been looking at jury-rig quick releases and trying to think outside the box. Naturally I have brain-designed the perfect release, involving anodised titanium and case-hardened roller bearings, but while I slowly fill the custom machining piggy bank I have been musing on Rube Goldberg alternatives.

The first was to mount a bench vise on the bottom of the camera. It works, but isn't really in the spirit of a field camera.

Then I envisioned screwing a section of a downhill ski onto the camera with its binding and then glueing the sole of my old ski boots to the top of the tripod - this one will also work, but will stick out awkwardly when the camera is not mounted.

Finally, I realised that hobby shops sell a wide range of sprung clasps and latched hook fittings for people who want to make their own custom cases. One of these, and some work with sheet plywood and I'll have a wide-mating-surface, latched quck release for ULF. Case closed :-)