Is Schneider 58mm XL OK with center filter 3c?

[MattKHardy]

Hi,

Fed up with waiting for Schneider center-filter iiib to appear on the auction site. Would Schneider center-filter iiic work? Its 2-stops instead of 1.5-stops.

Thanks for your help,
Matthew

[Dan Fromm]

Matt, the 58 SAXL covers 110 degrees @ f/22. Rodenstock recommends 2 stop CFs for 110 degree lenses, Schneider recommends a 1.5 stop CF for the 58 SAXL. At 110 degrees the corners are down 3.2 stops from the center, so a 2 stop CF will cut the drop to 1 stop from center to corner, a 1.5 stop will cut it to 1.5 stops.

I refuse to be held responsible for this advice -- the blame, if any, belongs to Rodenstock -- but you should be able to use a CF IIIc on your 58 SAXL without the world ending.

[MattKHardy]

Matt, the 58 SAXL covers 110 degrees @ f/22. Rodenstock recommends 2 stop CFs for 110 degree lenses, Schneider recommends a 1.5 stop CF for the 58 SAXL. At 110 degrees the corners are down 3.2 stops from the center, so a 2 stop CF will cut the drop to 1 stop from center to corner, a 1.5 stop will cut it to 1.5 stops.

I refuse to be held responsible for this advice -- the blame, if any, belongs to Rodenstock -- but you should be able to use a CF IIIc on your 58 SAXL without the world ending.

So neither CF cures fall off completely?

Even on B&W there seems a need for a CF as the top half of a landscape photo has large sections of sky, which get underexposed and look grainy. Also makes scanning harder.

[Dan Fromm]

So neither CF cures fall off completely?

Right. But if you're going to use much of the lens' coverage you'll be better off with a CF.

[Corran]

I knew Dan would answer this.
I'm confused as to your statements about "graininess" and underexposure in the sky. Usually the sky has quite a bit more light naturally. Also, grain usually happens from overexposure on b&w materials. Perhaps you mean to say that your sky is grainy and the foreground is underexposed...?

[MattKHardy]

I knew Dan would answer this.
I'm confused as to your statements about "graininess" and underexposure in the sky. Usually the sky has quite a bit more light naturally. Also, grain usually happens from overexposure on b&w materials. Perhaps you mean to say that your sky is grainy and the foreground is underexposed...?

Seeing the effects of fall-off in the foreground and in the sky. I shoot Delta 100 @ iso50 and develop less.

[Corran]

You may want to consider a color or GND filter instead/first depending on just what / how you are shooting.

[Steven Ruttenberg]

I use grad nd and work well. I just shot some landscapes with my 75mm on 4x5 and have very noticeable fall off at the edges. On one image (slide) the center is about 3 stops brighter than the surrounding edges. You can even make out that it is more or less a circle. Happens on my bw as well. Have not used a CS, but I am getting one here soon to experiment with. If I were to meter to expose for the center of the image without a filter, my edges would be useless I think.

Anyway, a grad nd works really well if done right, I prefer the reverse grad nd.

[nlambrecht]

Matt,

I use a Center Filter 3 with my 58mm Super Angulon XL. My understanding is the 3 and 3c are very similar, but I know Schneider would say otherwise. I have not noticed any major fall off when using negative film, I primarily used Kodak Ektar, FP4 and HP5.

When I got the filter a few years ago I did a test with some FP100c with and without the filter using camera movements to to show the edge of the image circle. The left photo is without the filter (I only have a bad iphone photo right now, but if you like I can upload a scanned one when I get back home this weekend).

195202

You can see without the filter there is a large drop off, and it is reduced with the CF 3, but not completely. The horizon on the photo is straight through the center of the lens, with front rise to show the edge of the image circle while the lens is stopped down.

Also, here are links to a photos that shows the full frame with negative film:

http://https://www.nathanlambrecht.com/index/G0000qa.6.8Lcjz8/I0000o99uQXkougA (http://www.nathanlambrecht.com/index/G0000qa.6.8Lcjz8/I0000o99uQXkougA) There is a grad filter over the sky in this photo.

http://www.nathanlambrecht.com/index/G0000qa.6.8Lcjz8/I0000w1BBhXJGNCE

I hope this helps.

-Nathan

[Martin Aislabie]

I use the same Centre Filter for all of my wide angle lenses.

It is only a 1.5 stop filter - but its close enough.

If you do the maths for light fall off at cos^4, none of the Centre Filters will compensate exactly for the light fall off on any lens - even if the CF is identified to match the lens by the manufacturer.

Centre Filters are almost as rare as hens teeth - so if you think you have something which will get you close - buy it and use it.

You can always keep an eye open for the recommended filter.

Martin

[MattKHardy]

You may want to consider a color or GND filter instead/first depending on just what / how you are shooting.

Got some Lee grads and plan on stacking these on top of the CF.

[MattKHardy]

Matt,

I use a Center Filter 3 with my 58mm Super Angulon XL. My understanding is the 3 and 3c are very similar, but I know Schneider would say otherwise. I have not noticed any major fall off when using negative film, I primarily used Kodak Ektar, FP4 and HP5.

When I got the filter a few years ago I did a test with some FP100c with and without the filter using camera movements to to show the edge of the image circle. The left photo is without the filter (I only have a bad iphone photo right now, but if you like I can upload a scanned one when I get back home this weekend).

195202

You can see without the filter there is a large drop off, and it is reduced with the CF 3, but not completely. The horizon on the photo is straight through the center of the lens, with front rise to show the edge of the image circle while the lens is stopped down.

Also, here are links to a photos that shows the full frame with negative film:

http://https://www.nathanlambrecht.com/index/G0000qa.6.8Lcjz8/I0000o99uQXkougA (http://www.nathanlambrecht.com/index/G0000qa.6.8Lcjz8/I0000o99uQXkougA) There is a grad filter over the sky in this photo.

http://www.nathanlambrecht.com/index/G0000qa.6.8Lcjz8/I0000w1BBhXJGNCE

I hope this helps.

-Nathan

That is a very noticeable drop off where you would expect it least (the sky). Did you stack a GND as well?

[MattKHardy]

I use the same Centre Filter for all of my wide angle lenses.

It is only a 1.5 stop filter - but its close enough.

If you do the maths for light fall off at cos^4, none of the Centre Filters will compensate exactly for the light fall off on any lens - even if the CF is identified to match the lens by the manufacturer.

Centre Filters are almost as rare as hens teeth - so if you think you have something which will get you close - buy it and use it.

You can always keep an eye open for the recommended filter.

Martin

Many thanks for everyone's help and advice!

I have gone with a iiic of the auction site. It looks in mint condition and the seller has good history.

That extra 1/2 stop might come in handy when I stack a polariser and GND (90% of the time for landscapes).

[Mark Darragh]

I have used a IIIc with a 47 & 58 SA XL, in my experience it is adequate for both.

A couple of things you might want to bear in mind too.

Stacking filters on these ultra-wides runs a really risk of vignetting, even using a slip on filter holder (such as the Lee) over the CF.

Using a polarising filter on lenses with such a wide field of view also has the potential for uneven polarisation of the sky.

All the best
M



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[nlambrecht]

That is a very noticeable drop off where you would expect it least (the sky). Did you stack a GND as well?

Matt,

In the instant photos in my post there is no grad filters applied. This was a test only of the fall off with the Schneider CF3 on the 58mm Super Angulon XL. I have found that instant film it a bit more like slide film when it comes to dynamic range. I have not noticed any large fall off when using the CF3 filter on negative film.

[MattKHardy]

OK the results are in!

Obligatory shot of the back garden...

The scan of the whole negative makes the scan too dark as the scanner tries to darken the sky (didn't use a grad):

195361

However its even, and there is no need to correct for fall-off ;)

Scanning the lower half of the negative and omitting the sky gives a much better scan:

195362

Lower corners don't show any fall-off, so all good.

[Daniel Unkefer]

That looks really even to my eye :)

[MattKHardy]

That looks really even to my eye :)

2-pass scanning to the rescue:

195419

TBH it only rescues the lower half. The sky is full of grain...

[MattKHardy]

Matt,

I use a Center Filter 3 with my 58mm Super Angulon XL. My understanding is the 3 and 3c are very similar, but I know Schneider would say otherwise. I have not noticed any major fall off when using negative film, I primarily used Kodak Ektar, FP4 and HP5.

When I got the filter a few years ago I did a test with some FP100c with and without the filter using camera movements to to show the edge of the image circle. The left photo is without the filter (I only have a bad iphone photo right now, but if you like I can upload a scanned one when I get back home this weekend).

195202

You can see without the filter there is a large drop off, and it is reduced with the CF 3, but not completely. The horizon on the photo is straight through the center of the lens, with front rise to show the edge of the image circle while the lens is stopped down.

Also, here are links to a photos that shows the full frame with negative film:

http://https://www.nathanlambrecht.com/index/G0000qa.6.8Lcjz8/I0000o99uQXkougA (http://www.nathanlambrecht.com/index/G0000qa.6.8Lcjz8/I0000o99uQXkougA) There is a grad filter over the sky in this photo.

http://www.nathanlambrecht.com/index/G0000qa.6.8Lcjz8/I0000w1BBhXJGNCE

I hope this helps.

-Nathan

Hi Nathan,

Many thanks for your advice.

What filter system do you use? Need to buy an 86mm adapter ring now for my Lee filter holder. Would it have to be the wide angle adapter ring? There only seems to be the standard adapter ring for 86mm, so would this work?

Thanks Matthew

[Corran]

Standard adapter rings and 100mm filter holders will vignette, a lot, with the 58mm.

Lee makes an 86mm to 100mm "donut" adapter that, as far as I have ever been able to tell, can only be purchased from Europe. I could be wrong. Then, you use it with their 100mm adapter that is designed for wide-angles (it slides over and tightens onto the outside of the lens/filter).

[nlambrecht]

Matt,

I use the Lee Filter 100mm System, the old school style since they just redesigned it.

So the bad news is if you want to use 3c with that system your best bet is to buy the special 100mm push on filter, then the 90mm converter ring for it. As Corran mentioned the ring slips over the outside of the 3c filter, then the push on filter tightens a screw that compresses the ring onto the filter. Lee can not make a wide angle 86mm ring, and the standard ring vignettes big time.

B&H Does sell both pieces, the really bad news is that a new one is expensive, like $250 for both expensive. You may want to check the big auction site for someone unloading theirs. I bought the filter holder that way. Here are the links from B&H:

100mm push on holder:
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/162980-REG/LEE_Filters_FK100_Foundation_Kit_100_4x4.html

90mm converter ring:
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/292622-REG/LEE_Filters_FKD10090_100_90mm_Converter_Ring_for.html/c/product/292622-REG/100-90mm_Converter_Ring_for_FK100_Filter (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/292622-REG/LEE_Filters_FKD10090_100_90mm_Converter_Ring_for.html/c/product/292622-REG/100-90mm_Converter_Ring_for_FK100_Filter)

Side note 1: With the 58mm on a recessed lens board, then the Center Filter, then the 100mm push on system, it is really difficult to access the controls on the lens. I use a small screwdriver to do everything on the shutter.

Side note 2: I have not researched if the new 100mm system has a new way of doing this. With ultra wide angles this has been a big problem for Lee, which is why competitors have opted for a 150mm systems, which lee does as well.

Good luck, hope this helps.

[Eric Leppanen]

You can save a bit ordering from Robert White in the UK, assuming you can arrange shipment through the post or possibly something like Parcelforce:

https://www.robertwhite.co.uk/filters/filter-systems/lee-filters-100mm-system/lee-filters-100mm-system-100mm-push-on-filter-holder.html
https://www.robertwhite.co.uk/lee-filters-donut-adaptor-100-90mm.html