8x10 Development in tray - How to know the time

[Rscaboy]

Hello,

I'm going to develop my first 8x10 sheet film in tray soon...

I know more or less the complete process but still have 2 non answered questions...

1. For my 24x36, 6x6, 4x5 (With the SP-445) I use in ligtroom the app "Massive DevChart" and it works great..But for the 8x10 I will have to be in the complete "Darkroom" during the whole process so I can't use this app as the light from the app could influence the development...

So what is the best method to know when to start....when to agitate...when to stop ?

2. I will develop 8x10 sheet one by one so concerning the washing how does it works ? Do I need a tray with fresh water only and leave the sheet for x minutes in it or do I need to replace the waters x times like for the others format ?

Thank in advance for your help and sorry if those questions looks stupid but I start from zero for the 8x10 process.

Dom

[Jim Noel]

1. Buy a use, or new, darkroom timer. Used ones are dirt cheap. Even an old alarm clock will do. Many people use the timers in their watch or telephone.
2. Wash in the same manner you have been washing other film. If more thanone sheet at a time they need to be rotated from bottom to top every minute or so. A good method is to fill the tray with water, rotate the films 3 or 4 time, dump the water and refill. Five repeats is sufficient.

[paulbarden]

I use the Massive Dev Chart app in my darkroom, doing 8x10 sheet film exactly as you describe.
You need to turn down screen brightness on your device to the lowest setting, and opt for the "safelight mode", which is the red star at the top of the screen. (the default is the blue star mode, which is for daylight work) The screen will still emit enough light to affect film from anything less than about 4 feet, so I place my phone somewhere that it doesn't cast light on my workspace, and once I have started the timer, I place it on my workspace FACE DOWN. You can still hear the prompts to agitate. Its perfectly usable, but you just have to be sure its set to the right mode and keep it where it can't cast light on your tray area (or turn it face down).

As for washing 8x10 sheet films: I process one sheet at a time and wash each sheet in my print washer, one at a time. Its the exact same process as roll film, etc.

[Maris Rusis]

I use a Talking Countdown Timer that I bought off eBay. The electronic voice that counts down minutes and seconds is a reassuring presence in the absolute darkness required for open tray film development.

[John Kasaian]

Most B&W films take about 7 minutes in the developer.
A 12 oz bottle of really good beer takes about 7 minutes to savor.
Coincidence?
I think not.

[Leszek Vogt]

There are digital timers that have several functions, so you can also time fixer, etc. Also there are commercial kitch types....similar.

https://www.amazon.com/XREXS-Channels-Simultaneous-Countdown-Attachable/dp/B01K4JKFK6/ref=sr_1_92?keywords=timers&qid=1567218334&s=gateway&sr=8-92

Les

[pau3]

My method to measure time in darkness is probably simpler, although not very fancy. I recorded myself counting time every 15s from 0 to 30 minutes: 15, 30, 45, 1 minute, and so on. I start playing the record (it is stored in google drive, any device that can access works) when I turn off the lights. I chose 30min because I’m done in 23 or 24 minutes, from prewash to fix (usually, 6 8x10 sheets). The safety margin has allowed me to deal with several mistakes in the past.

Best,
Pau

[Pere Casals]

Hello,

I'm going to develop my first 8x10 sheet film in tray soon...



0) Process your sheets with emulsion up, with the notches at top right like when loading a holder.

1) You can develop lights open if you place the tray inside a paper safe, or inside a light tight box, in that way you see the timer perfectly:

195016 195014

2) When development finished, close lights, open the paper safe and move your sheet to another tray with stop bath, after some 20 seconds (with some little agitation) in the stop you can open lights (I do it always), development is stopped and light won't harm anymore, you also fix the negative lights open so you see the fixer strength, the total fixing time should be (at least) twice the time it took to clear the yellowish bromide.

3) If you want, you can check that opening lights after the sheet has been 20s in the stop bath is not harmful. Process two unexposed strips from a 35mm film end (or spend a sheet to cut strips) and with one of them open lights after 20s in the stop bath, compare fog. With photopaper this cannot be made, with film it can, if you have any doubt then check it. If you use plain water as stop bath then wait some 30s before opening lights.

If you touch the acid stop batch with your fingers, then wash your hands before touching next still unprocessed sheet !



4) Of course, Once you have the sheet in the fixer you can start to develop next sheet. In that you only need to close lights to place the sheet in the developer and for those first 20s in the Stop.

5) You may use a larger tray with a DIY separator in the middle to develop two sheets at the same time.

6) Yes, changing water some 5 times will perform perfect wash, for TMX/Y you may wait a longuer time before changing water to allow the pinky dye clear.

7) Last water bath should be in distilled water with a very, very small amount of Photoflo wetting agent, you prevent drying marks in that way, that distilled water bath can be reused many times, use an additional tray for it for convenience.

8) Operate always in a dust free environment, use a domestic HEPA air purifier for that, specially when the sheets are drying, I use this one:

195013

9) You may use (cheap-ebay) sterilization mesh trays inside the developer tray (Jim Noel advice), so moving the sheet to the other trays will be more convenient, specially with like pyro developers.

195015


_________________________


Processing in trays is a sound method because you may reduce agitation to control highlights, with low agitation and diluted developer the generated bromide slows development in the extreme highlights, conserving texture there, and best, as the sheet is horizontal the reduced agitation has lower risk of bromide streaks, as gravity does not help the streaks.

(Note: Bromide streaks in vertically processed sheets is the evidence that it is the generated bromide what makes the compensating effect when agitation is reduced.)

Rotary is a nice processing method, but trays have agitation control. Trays are also fast, because you are developing one or more sheets while other are fixing.

[Willie]

Get your favorite music and record it with your voice calling out the time so you can play it in the dark while you develop, stop an fix the film.

Works well and if you use a cassette player you can get them for almost nothing at rummage sales or thrift stores.

CD or DVD - on your computer to record the music and sound?

[Doremus Scudder]

Resident Luddite here.

I developed sheet film in open trays in my European "darkroom" (a windowless bathroom) for years using a cheapo digital cooking timer and a metronome. The cooking timer was preset for the full development time plus 5 seconds. The metronome was set to (softly) click once per second. The metronome was running before I turned off the lights and unloaded film. I started the timer after unloading, counted five clicks, and then immersed the sheet(s) in the developer. I counted seconds (clicks) for the agitation intervals and agitated once through my stack every 30 seconds. When the timer went off, I drained the film and transferred it to the stop bath. That method become second nature and worked fine for me for almost 30 years.

Now I have a darkroom with a dedicated (compensating) timer for developing. It has a dim red LED display and counts up, so I simply watch it, agitating as needed and removing film at the right point. The display is shielded so it doesn't shine directly on the developing tray; no problems with fogging that way. It's easier than my earlier method (a bit), but not nearly as Spartan-feeling :)

Timers are available pretty cheaply on eBay, etc. Get a good Gralab digital timer with a footswitch (like the 451) or a used Zone VI compensating developer. You don't need many bells and whistles, but the footswitch is really nice for starting/stopping when your hands are wet.

Best,

Doremus

[Vaughn]

I use an old beat-up Gralab timer. I turn off the buzzer as it usually sends me thru the ceiling and since I do not listen to music I can hear it shut off at the end of the time. This way I can keep it down below the counter with the trays on it (developing 11x14 negs)...no problem with the glow that way.

Gad -- last thing I want to hear is my own voice! :cool:

I can develop five 8x10s at once in a Jobo Expert Drum -- I wash each neg in its own 8x10 tray...exchanging the water about 5 times each, and a little aggitation between water changes.

[Rscaboy]

Hello,

Thank you ALL for all those tips !

But concerning the washing....

I understood that changing 5 times the water will be enough but how many times the sheet needs to be in the tray between each exchange ?

And do we need to do some agitation or just leaving the sheet in the tray is enough ?

Thanks for the clarification.

Dom./

[MAubrey]

I use an workout interval timer app on my phone. It's entirely auditory, so I can leave the screen off. Just set the intervals for each step of the process and let it go.

[David Schaller]

Hello,

Thank you ALL for all those tips !

But concerning the washing....

I understood that changing 5 times the water will be enough but how many times the sheet needs to be in the tray between each exchange ?

And do we need to do some agitation or just leaving the sheet in the tray is enough ?

Thanks for the clarification.

Dom./

I transfer the negative(s) to a filled 11x14 tray under a tap dribbling fresh water in slowly. I dump the whole tray and refill a couple of times, while I do other clean up, for about 15 minutes with Pyrocat negatives. I’d do the same with other developers too, just to be sure the fixer is washed away. Then photoflow and hang to dry.

[Vaughn]

Once we get the surface fixer washed off in the first set of quick rinses, we depend on osmosis to draw out the last of the fixer from the emulsion. If there is no water movement, the concentration of the fixer in the water next to the emulsion increases, slowing down the rate the fixer leaves the emulsion. Same problem leaving two sheets of film together...no fresh water for the fixer to diffuse into from the emulsion...which is why I put one neg per tray...less chance of scratching and the entire surface of the emulsion keeping in contact with the water. Occasional agitation will disperse any fixer next to the emulsion, and you are good to go.

But then, I rinse between each changing of the water of each tray, also. Habit.

[Pere Casals]

If there is no water movement, the concentration of the fixer in the water next to the emulsion increases, slowing down the rate the fixer leaves the emulsion.

Yes, some agitation shortens the suitable washing time a lot.

[Louie Powell]

The traditional solution to the timing problem is to use a timer with phosphorescent hands - that is, hands that are painted with a material that emits a soft glow in the dark. GraLab is the classic timer for this purpose - don't know if they are still being made, but there are lots of them around.

Phosphorescent paint is activated by exposure to light, and then emits a soft green glow for a number of hours after the light has been turned off. That glow is too dim to affect film emulsions, especially if the timer is placed several feet away from the developing tray.

You can purchase phosphorescent paint in craft stores to refresh the paint on older timers.

You can also use a large diameter clock (such as might have been used in office applications) - remove the front cover and paint the second hand with phosphorescent paint. In that approach, you have to keep track of the number of rotations of the second hand, so to really have to focus your attention on what you are doing - no conversations while developing film!

There is another approach - development by inspection. This requires that you have a dark green safelight. You develop normally, using whatever means you have to time agitations. When you think the film is nearing completion, you briefly turn on the green safelight to inspect the film. People who are practiced at this approach can tell when development has been completed, but it does take some trial and error to acquire that skill.


As to washing - the traditional approach is to put the negative in a tray and allow a slow stream of water to run through the tray for a hour or so. That uses a lot of water. A better solution is to put the negative in a tray (face up), cover the negative with water (it's not necessary to completely fill the tray), let it soak for a few minutes while agitating gently, dump the water and repeat the process. This approach is also used with prints - negatives are easy to wash compared with fiber-based prints because with prints, fixer is trapped in the paper fibers. David Vestal did extensive testing and showed that it's just as effective as running water, but wastes far less water..

[Pere Casals]

There is another approach - development by inspection. This requires that you have a dark green safelight. You develop normally, using whatever means you have to time agitations. When you think the film is nearing completion, you briefly turn on the green safelight to inspect the film. People who are practiced at this approach can tell when development has been completed, but it does take some trial and error to acquire that skill.


A safe development by inspection was made by Yousuf Karsh, he used Kodak products of the era to desensitize the emulsion so a safe light could be used like with ortho film. Kodak produced an special run of desensitizing solution for Karsh after they had discontinued the product.

Today, after inspection is made we cannot extend much the development, newly exposed (fogged) crystals will start to develop after induction time (around 1 min?) building fog.

Also I guess that today we can do the inspection with an IR night vision device (if it is not an IR sensitive film, not many are).

[jp]

I'm even more luddite... I have a gralab 300 which doesn't glow much. I keep a towel over it when not in use so it does not charge up much. It makes a little bit extra motor noise as it goes past 45s.. Probably got dropped at some point. If I don't hear it, I can feel where the second hand is. I can also feel the zero and minute bumps and know how many minutes left by how many bumps till it reaches the minute hand.

I don't use the gralab 300 for anything else. For other things, I prefer digital timers.

If you visit someone else's darkroom and they have a gralab 300, wait till they are not looking and turn the buzzer on. Next time they use, it will really wake them up instead of a gentle click.