Pyrocat-MC / Defective Product

[Flauvius]

After refusing to discuss my several instances of "Sudden Death" with Pyrocat-MC, Bud told me today that I am the only person among 200 customers to have complained about the quality of his product.

My response to him was, and after being a customer of his for nearly thirty years years: Please take my name off your customer list, as I will never buy anything from your firm again. I will not tolerate being asked to pay for a product that is shown repeatedly to be defective by other forum members and then with utter contempt being dismissed as someone imaging that my very thin negatives - and over the last 18 months - never occurred.

I deserve - and I suspect the members of this forum also deserve - vendors who stand by their quality controls and admit their products' manufacturing defects when they occur. As for me, I am no longer willing to risk my time, my negatives, and money on Bud's Pyrocat-MC , whatever the price.

Flauvius


and then

[Jim Noel]

After refusing to discuss my several instances of "Sudden Death" with Pyrocat-MC, Bud told me today that I am the only person among 200 customers to have complained about the quality of his product.

My response to him was, and after being a customer of his for nearly thirty years years: Please take my name off your customer list, as I will never buy anything from your firm again. I will not tolerate being asked to pay for a product that is shown repeatedly to be defective by other forum members and then with utter contempt being dismissed as someone imaging that my very thin negatives - and over the last 18 months - never occurred.

I deserve - and I suspect the members of this forum also deserve - vendors who stand by their quality controls and admit their products' manufacturing defects when they occur. As for me, I am no longer willing to risk my time, my negatives, and money on Bud's Pyrocat-MC , whatever the price.

Flauvius


and then

GOOD FOR YOU ! It's time we all stood up to suppliers unwilling to work with us when we have a problem!

[Pere Casals]

after being a customer of his for nearly thirty years years: Please take my name off your customer list, as I will never buy anything from your firm again.

After being served for 30 years you may allow a single pitfall, no vendor is perfect. Perhaps your next vendor may do something wrong sooner !

Chem ingredients may contain different kinds of impurities and distributor cannot be aware, you should first know for sure if other customers had that problem and if it was reported to your vendor.

If you ruin sheets this is your responsibility. You simply throw (lights open) a drop of developer on a film end and while you prepare the pottery so you see if the developer is in shape, on any doubt you make a drop test.

[Flauvius]

Pere:

It would have been only fair had But sold Pyrocat-MC with an express disclaimer: WARNING: This product may be defective; use at your own risk and expense!

At least when Sherrie worked there and mixed chemistry, she would tell you when the batch she was sending was made. Now that she is gone, no one there seems to care about the quality of their products.

Certainly they should be expected to test their products prior to shipment, and to promptly disclose all problems or risks associated with the use of their products. For me, that is the way business should be conducted: Honesty in fact, and with a sense of responsibility for the customers' belief in the integrity of a chosen product.

As an aside: If Bud bought components of questionable quality; That should be his problem, but not that of his innocent customers. Indeed, why should we be expected spend our time, film and associated expenses just to test his Pyrocat-MC? Upon reflection, that reasonably should be his obligation as the supplier, and to whom we are paying for our belief in the fitness his product to develop our film

Flauvius

[Pere Casals]

Certainly they should be expected to test their products prior to shipment, and to promptly disclose all problems or risks associated with the use of their products. For me, that is the way business should be conducted: Honesty in fact, and with a sense of responsibility for the customers' belief in the integrity of a chosen product.



Even a multinational like kodak had sudden death issues with an industrial product like xtol, or had dichroic fog in TMax developer for sheets, and they had legions of chemists analyzing the ingredients...

You cannot totally blame an small supplier that these days buy chemestry as they can to supply an small market.

If they lie then it's another thing... We also can buy from Merck and mixing, this does not fail.

[jp]

The forum discussion is about pyrocat-hd, different product.

[Alan9940]

I have bought various things from PF for many years, but only had issues a couple of times; ironically, with Pyrocat-HD! But, PF is not the only source dealing with questionable raw products or, perhaps, out/near out of date products. I just recently bought a bottle of FX-39 from FreeStyle and accidentally noticed (in very small print) that the manufacture date was January 2018! This developer was already 1 1/2 years old when I received it. One might think that FreeStyle would be more careful about their inventory and what gets sent out. Just sayin...

[Willie]

Who are Bud and Sherrie? I know they aren't the Governor and Lt. Governor of California.

[Greg Y]

Bud is the owner of Photographer's Formulary. Sherry was a longtime employee.

[esearing]

Bud seems to have good days and bad days in his responses. How we react also is on us. While we can bulk order chems from various sources, PF offers a convenient service to those just getting the tips of their fingers wet.

I remember camera stores stocking 20 different developers and all the related stuff to work in the darkroom. Today we rely on the internet and shipping.
Perhaps it is time for the next generation of photography enthusiast to begin planning to take over the chemical supply for general hobbyist.

[John Layton]

Just a quick note that I recently purchased the small-sized (10 liter, just to test) Pyrocat HD kit in powdered form from PF...and had great results with it. I did make sure that everything looked fresh prior to mixing.

At first I thought the better shadow detail was merely extra base fog due to the fact that its difficult to scrape such a tiny amount of bromide (as supplied) from the inside of its plastic packet - but further testing reveals that indeed this shadow detail is better than that realized from my HD (in glycol) pre-mixed liquid.

Regarding the handling of such tiny amounts of pre-measured dry chemistry, I do wonder about the amount that is invariably left on the insides of the (bromide and phenidone) packets...and whether or not the supplier assumes that and therefore adds a bit extra, and/or if whatever tiny amount remains stuck inside the packet makes a difference in results. Comments?

Regardless, I will, in the future, either go with the larger (50 liter) dry kit, or (more likely) will bite the DIY bullet, get a decent lab scale, and go back to mixing from scratch as I did awhile ago.

[Doremus Scudder]

... Regarding the handling of such tiny amounts of pre-measured dry chemistry, I do wonder about the amount that is invariably left on the insides of the (bromide and phenidone) packets...and whether or not the supplier assumes that and therefore adds a bit extra, and/or if whatever tiny amount remains stuck inside the packet makes a difference in results. Comments?

John,

Just rinse the packets a couple of times and dump the contents into the mixing container before you top the volume up with water. I've been doing that for years...

Another tip: when mixing dry chemicals one can avoid airborne dust by snipping a corner off the packet and pouring the contents into the water while holding the edge of the opening just beneath the surface of the water. Some wet powder will stay around the opening, but this gets rinsed off when I rinse the packet with water a time or two. No dust, no waste. EZPZ

Best,

Doremus

[agregov]

I reported several Pyrocat failures back in the Spring (HD and MC wet kits). Also, have never been able to get suitable asa times from PF Pyrocat wet kits. Switched to Bostick and no problems. PF never contacted me. So, the 200 buyer zero reports is untrue. Not suggesting there's any lying going on. It may be poor communication internally.

In any event, I believe the issue is pre-mixed Part A goes bad sitting in the shelf for long. I will not purchase a wet kit of Pyrocat ever again. I’ve literally lost years of testing work to poor chemistry from PF. Personally, I think they should retire the wet kits and save themselves and other photographers heartache.

[Pere Casals]

Not suggesting there's any lying going on. It may be poor communication internally.

Possibly, they have a very wide product range.



I will not purchase a wet kit of Pyrocat ever again.

IMHO most of wet kits are good to try Pyro, not for a serious usage. Pyro powders are not safe and have to be handled with care, IMHO preferably outdoors with a low wind in our back, so a wet pyro kit is very suitable for conveniently learning if it suits our taste, but a serious usage requires tracking shelf life and strength since mixed.

If we check our shutters, we meter accurately for a well determined N+/- ... then IMHO we cannot use a mixed chem that has been in the shelf time enough to change substantially, without making a drop test !