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jmontague
15-Aug-2019, 16:57
I recently ordered Pyrocat HD from Photographer’s Formulary and the A solution looked like this:

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190815/1205318418157bf40916d431931257f4.jpg

PF was great and immediately sent replacement chemicals. However, I received a replacement today and it is exactly the same - milky, thick and separated. Has anyone else had this problem? I’m very frustrated.


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sanking
15-Aug-2019, 17:49
This does not appear to be a common problem, never recall seeing it mentioned.

Try placing the container in a bain-marie of water at about 130-150º F for half hour or so, and then agitate the bottle up and down for a few seconds. Perhaps the chemiclas will go back into solution.

Sandy

jmontague
15-Aug-2019, 17:51
Thanks, Sandy. I’ll give that a try.


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jmontague
15-Aug-2019, 18:40
Heated the solution for 30 minutes at 130 degrees and shook it up. No change that I can see. I will see how it looks when cooled. Any additional thoughts are appreciated.


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Jim Noel
15-Aug-2019, 18:44
I have read of too many problems with chems from PF. My solution is that I don't even consider ordering from PF. Imix from raw chemicals ordered from B&S.

Keith Pitman
15-Aug-2019, 19:16
If you have a scale and buy the components, it’s easy to mix up your own. (AKA, you too can be a mad scientist!)

jmontague
15-Aug-2019, 19:36
That’s what I’m going to do, Keith.


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esearing
16-Aug-2019, 02:27
There seem to be several threads now about Pyrocat HD problems. I switched to Pyrocat M and mix myself. Fewer components , easy to make.

Greg Y
16-Aug-2019, 06:49
I'll just weigh in and say i've used chemicals from Photographers Formulary, notably Pyrocat HD & M without issue for decades.

jp
16-Aug-2019, 09:25
HDC is one ingredient easier than HD if you wish to mix it yourself.

Standard safety disclaimers apply for some of the chemicals when dry.... I mix it outdoors to avoid the powder in my darkroom.

Vaughn
16-Aug-2019, 09:36
I had the same problems, PF sent two replacement kits that I have not tried yet. I went back to B&S for a sure thing. Print material I'll take more chances on...negative processing, not so much.

jmontague
16-Aug-2019, 11:29
I also have had excellent results with prior purchases from Photographer’s Formulary, including my first Pyrocat HD kit. That is why this is a surprise and mystery. I just ordered raw chemicals and will mix my own going forward.


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Steven Ruttenberg
16-Aug-2019, 19:47
I had an issue where they had got a bad batch of chemicals. I was getting pinholes all over my films. HP5 was really bad Acros not so. And it only app eared with minimal agitation and 1 hour development. I am gonna start mixing my own.

John Layton
17-Aug-2019, 05:13
For me at this point the writing is very clearly on the wall, and I will go back to mixing my own from scratch. Apologies and "free" replacements will no longer prevail...I cannot and will not place any more negatives at risk!

I would only consider going back to a pre-mixed product if the supplier in question were to provide a full, accurate, and transparent accounting of exactly what went wrong, plus a full, accurate, and precise description of the steps they have taken to ensure that this will never happen again!

Sorry for the rant....but c'mon already!

William Whitaker
17-Aug-2019, 10:40
I would only consider going back to a pre-mixed product if the supplier in question were to provide a full, accurate, and transparent accounting of exactly what went wrong, plus a full, accurate, and precise description of the steps they have taken to ensure that this will never happen again!

+1

I support what John says and wish the supplier in question (PF) would at least address the problem. A post here would be nice, if able. But a notification on their own website would be better. And so far, I have seen none. No mention at all of the problem. And this thread appears to have drawn a lot of attention. Surely they must be aware that there is an issue afoot. Some sort of comment would be appropriate.

Personally I find it disappointing on several levels, not the least of which is that I hate it when a commercial concern which caters to our interest area has an issue, be it with quality control or something else entirely. I see this sort of thing as being quite damaging to customer confidence as well as overall business success. Ultimately it could lead to the loss of what has been a valuable resource.

Corran
17-Aug-2019, 11:57
+1 and +2 to the above.

Would it possibly be appropriate for a representative of the forum to send a detailed email to PF about the ongoing issues experienced by many on this forum, and ask for clarification? At this time, I have had no issues besides a chemical packet sent to me in the wrong amount back 6 years ago when I made my first order, but PF's Pyrocat (in Glycol) has been fine otherwise for my last 3 orders (one 1L kit and two 5L kits). I asked specifically for a fresh batch in my last order, which I am about 75% through.

I have negatives right now waiting to be developed in that Pyrocat and these threads are highly alarming. I personally have little interest in mixing my own if I can get quality kits on order from PF or someone else (let's not forget that B&S was not immune to problems either recently).

Tim V
17-Aug-2019, 20:43
Anyone experiencing problems with PF PMK?

Last two HD orders from PF were fine for me, so touch wood...

darr
18-Aug-2019, 01:37
Today I processed 6-4x5" sheets and 2-120 rolls in Pyrocat-HD from PF with no issues.

Jim Fitzgerald
18-Aug-2019, 02:59
Been mixing my own from scratch from day one. Can't see buying water. The chemicals are cheap enough and I've never had a problem ever.

mpirie
18-Aug-2019, 04:44
The chemicals are cheap enough and I've never had a problem ever.
True Jim, assuming availability is not a problem.....but unfortunately, for many users outside the US, getting the raw chemicals IS a problem.....and PF may be the only way to get hold of dry Pyrocat HD.

Mike

Peter Lewin
18-Aug-2019, 04:56
Question: It appears that all of the problems with Pyrocat from PF are with the wet 2-bottle sets. Have there been any problems with the dry kits? I have never had a problem with either PMK or Pyrocat HD purchased from PF, but I am about out of Pyrocat-HD and these threads are making me nervous about purchasing my replacement.

Vaughn
18-Aug-2019, 08:06
Its is the dry kits I had problems with -- not the wet.

jmontague
18-Aug-2019, 11:49
Mine was with the wet kit. Both the original and replacement had the problem. Solution A was the issue, not solution B.


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Vaughn
18-Aug-2019, 12:01
Solution B would be pretty hard to mess up.

jmontague
18-Aug-2019, 12:40
Solution B would be pretty hard to mess up.

Agreed. Only one chemical to mix.


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Sirius Glass
18-Aug-2019, 13:48
I bought Pyrocat HD in Glycol [liquid] from Photographers' Formulary in June and I have not had any problems.

Steven Ruttenberg
19-Aug-2019, 19:29
I usually get issues with pin holes. I just had 1 sheet get blasted with them and another was fine. Both developed at same time. I am sure part of it is operator error, but it seems to only happen with the pyro. Shame as I like how it works based on my limited experience. Mine was the wet. I have the chemicals for dry. I like it for semi-stand and 2 bath.

Keith Pitman
19-Aug-2019, 19:45
I usually get issues with pin holes. I just had 1 sheet get blasted with them and another was fine. Both developed at same time. I am sure part of it is operator error, but it seems to only happen with the pyro. Shame as I like how it works based on my limited experience. Mine was the wet. I have the chemicals for dry. I like it for semi-stand and 2 bath.

Are you using an acid stop bath? If so, what and what strength? Plain water is best for film, IMO.

Steven Ruttenberg
19-Aug-2019, 19:47
I have had the issues with both kodak stop bath at 1:63 and plain distilled water. I am wondering if I should use tray development for pyrocat. The semi-stand technique with a tube by Steve Sherman seems to work okay.

sanking
19-Aug-2019, 19:48
I usually get issues with pin holes. I just had 1 sheet get blasted with them and another was fine. Both developed at same time. I am sure part of it is operator error, but it seems to only happen with the pyro. Shame as I like how it works based on my limited experience. Mine was the wet. I have the chemicals for dry. I like it for semi-stand and 2 bath.


Nearly all of the issues associated with Pyrocat seem rooted in working procedures or operator error.

Any developer that contains carbonate can develop sufficient gas to cause pinholes in film emulsion, especially if development is followed by an acetic acid stop bath. A working solution of Pyrocat has pH of about 11, when you change the film from this environment to an acetic acid stop bath with pH 4 or below, the shock to the emulsion is great. A better choice would be a water stop bath rather than an acetic acid stop bath.

Pinholes used to be common with films and carbonate type developers but over the years emulsions have become much tougher and pinholes are very rare except with some old style traditional emulsions. But going from a very alkaline developing solution to a very acetic acid stop is capable of blowing holes in any emulsion.

A water rinse gives about 100% protection from pinholes.

Sandy

agregov
19-Aug-2019, 22:20
See below for my ordeal. I emailed Formulary back in the Spring wanting to give feedback and help them solve whatever issue is going on. Not heard a peep from them. Maybe an email from the forum might get their attention. I believe they figure it's operator error, as Sandy states. But in my case, I did nothing different except change from Formulary to Bostick Pyrocat HD and development times snapped right into place for me. Sandy, have you used any stock Pyrocat from Formulary in liquid form? It might take someone of Sandy's reputation to get their attention.

https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?53840-Pyrocat-HD-Failure-Images&p=1502485#post1502485

Cor
20-Aug-2019, 06:23
My 2 cents: I always mixed my own Pyrocat-HDC (in Glycol) from the same chemistry stocks per instructions from Sandy King. A couple of years ago I suddenly started to get problems with solution "A"..a white precipitate on top (a contradiction), whch I could not get into solution again.

So I switched to Pyrocat-HDC, no more problems.

The funny thing is that I kept this bottle of HD and use it when I re-devlop in Pyro after bleaching a negative..it still works after a littleswirling to get a 'suspension"..

best,

Cor

Steven Ruttenberg
20-Aug-2019, 08:33
Nearly all of the issues associated with Pyrocat seem rooted in working procedures or operator error.

Any developer that contains carbonate can develop sufficient gas to cause pinholes in film emulsion, especially if development is followed by an acetic acid stop bath. A working solution of Pyrocat has pH of about 11, when you change the film from this environment to an acetic acid stop bath with pH 4 or below, the shock to the emulsion is great. A better choice would be a water stop bath rather than an acetic acid stop bath.

Pinholes used to be common with films and carbonate type developers but over the years emulsions have become much tougher and pinholes are very rare except with some old style traditional emulsions. But going from a very alkaline developing solution to a very acetic acid stop is capable of blowing holes in any emulsion.

A water rinse gives about 100% protection from pinholes.

Sandy

The biggest offender for film was HP5. Next round I will try water stop bath and see how that does. The problem was worse for semi-stand over a 1 hour period. However, this last time I tried with Tmax100 as semi-stand worked out fine from what I can tell.

sanking
20-Aug-2019, 19:32
Sandy, have you used any stock Pyrocat from Formulary in liquid form?

https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?53840-Pyrocat-HD-Failure-Images&p=1502485#post1502485


I have used the stock liquid form in glycol, and never had any trouble with it. Some of the chemicals in the -HD formula, especially metabisulfite and bromide, need a lot of heat to go into solution in glycol, but they are not really necessary in the glycol formula anyway so even if not in solution in the stock solution the working solution should work fine.

However, I have been mixing and using only the -HDC formula for at least 6-8 years. -HDC substitutes ascorbic acid for the metabisulfite and bromide with same results, and all of the chemicals go into solution in glycol easily at 150º F.

Sandy