info on 4x5 Sinar copy camera?

[Greg]

Anyone have any info on the 4x5 Sinar Copy Camera? My search for info on it turned up to be a dead end. I believe it was made for Museums for copying paintings and artworks. I don't believe it had any movements but could be wrong on that.
thanks

[Bob Salomon]

Don’t know what Sinar’s was like but here is a picture of Linhof’s. Bellows draw might be different but features must be similar.

https://www.linhofstudio.com/catalogue/dbimages/Linhof_000140_RD1_a1308.jpg

[Drew Wiley]

Minus the tilts & swings. I've only seen catalog pictures of it. Everybody I know used a regular Sinar P or even F. Why go looking for something less versatile which probably cost more due to its rarity? If someone didn't know how to zero detents or marking on a regular Sinar, why would they know how to make it parallel to a painting?

[Greg]

The camera would have been permanently mounted on a copy stand in our town's Museum. Hauling my 4x5 Norma back and forth every time I want to use it there and having to re-aligning it on the Linhof copy stand's baseboard has become tedious for me. Alas, hoped that the camera was cheaper than a F in that it did not have any movements, and definitely it was not a rarity. Looks like I will have to stick to using my Norma.

[Bob Salomon]

The camera would have been permanently mounted on a copy stand in our town's Museum. Hauling my 4x5 Norma back and forth every time I want to use it there and having to re-aligning it on the Linhof copy stand's baseboard has become tedious for me. Alas, hoped that the camera was cheaper than a F in that it did not have any movements, and definitely it was not a rarity. Looks like I will have to stick to using my Norma.

That one I showed you was very expensive.
Cameras like these don’t have movements but the front and back are very carefully aligned and their parallelism doesn’t change while focusing. That is not true for normal view cameras and is the reason Bill Ziegler developed the Zigaline system.

[Drew Wiley]

So what, Bob? How does that guarantee parallelism with the original to begin with? Maybe today one could use an extremely precise laser measuring device projecting the 4 corners of the original to four fixed points on the camera back. Not then. And there's no guarantee the original painting and frame itself is dead flat, or even the wall. I'd rather use, and have used, a good loupe and onboard movements to correct flatness visually. Film itself doesn't fit dead flat in the holder either. High quality repro would be done with a big copy camera. This kind of camera is really a small niche. Zigaline was a toy.

[Tin Can]

Maybe....

or a Custom


http://www.glennview.com/sinar.htm

http://glennview.com/jpgs/sinar/tripod/clampunit/norma/big_1.jpg

http://glennview.com/jpgs/sinar/tripod/clampunit/norma/big_4.jpg

[LabRat]

Probably made to just stay on a copy stand...

Steve K

[Bernice Loui]

Most any Sinar camera (Norma-F-C-P-X) will do fine as a copy camera mounted vertical or horizontal. It would not be difficult to make a copy board mount to fit a Sinar rail and camera system. Sinar did make a clamp mount for their rails which allows using the camera is odd locations with no tripod or similar camera support.

Fact, most any good 4x5 camera can be made in to a good copy camera. Difficulty will be alignment of item being imaged to the film plane of the camera.

Hasselblad once made a nifty device known as a Linear Mirror where the mirror was mounted on the flat item to be copied. On camera in place of the lens was a ring with a doughnut shaped mirror and a while ring and a small hole in the center of this ring assembly. Flatness and alignment of the camera to flat item to be copied was set by looking into the small hole in the center of the ring assembly and setting the camera or item to be copied's position until the series of concentric rings are equally spaced.

Modified a Sinar lens board to accept the Hasselblad copy widget, worked really well.



Bernice

[Bernice Loui]

"Zigaline" was not a toy, it was a hokey-jokey item that baited more than a few into believe that "thing" could work...... at all.

Bernice



Zigaline was a toy.

[Bernice Loui]

Polaroid MP4 is a 4x5 good copy camera, might consider one of these if one can be found complete and in good condition. Offered one here years ago as a Free-Come get it, no takers, got scrapped.


Bernice

[neil poulsen]

Somewhere in my domain I have a Sinar system book that probably has a photo of their copy camera. When I find it, I will post a photo.

In the meantime, I have a Sinar 4x5 rear standard that has no swings or tilts, only rise. It's for a 4x5 copy camera. It wouldn't surprise me if Sinar also made a similar standard for the front. The 3rd photo shows this 4x5 rear standard paired with a Norma front standard.

I also have a Sinar 8x10 rear standard bearer that has no tilts or swings, nor does it have rise. It has only focus and was intended as part of an 8x10 copy camera. (See first two photos below.)

If the 4x5 rear standard has enough rise, I could probably use it as a front standard, combine it with the 8x10 rear standard bearer, and have an 8x10 copy camera.

[neil poulsen]

So what, Bob? How does that guarantee parallelism with the original to begin with? . . .

No copy camera is going to be perfect. But, I think the idea was, they're going to be reliably close enough. The fact that the Linhof in the photo was designed and marketed suggests that there was a need for something that was reliably close enough. And, I think there's a general consensus that Linhof manufactured cameras to fairly demanding tolerances.

I'm sure one can use a conventional 4x5 for copy work. But in doing so, it's possible that they could become inadvertently misaligned. I don't think that's the case with a camera that's designed as a copy camera.

As I recall, I think that Cambo also made a 4x5 intended for copy work.

[Bob Salomon]

Most any Sinar camera (Norma-F-C-P-X) will do fine as a copy camera mounted vertical or horizontal. It would not be difficult to make a copy board mount to fit a Sinar rail and camera system. Sinar did make a clamp mount for their rails which allows using the camera is odd locations with no tripod or similar camera support.

Fact, most any good 4x5 camera can be made in to a good copy camera. Difficulty will be alignment of item being imaged to the film plane of the camera.

Hasselblad once made a nifty device known as a Linear Mirror where the mirror was mounted on the flat item to be copied. On camera in place of the lens was a ring with a doughnut shaped mirror and a while ring and a small hole in the center of this ring assembly. Flatness and alignment of the camera to flat item to be copied was set by looking into the small hole in the center of the ring assembly and setting the camera or item to be copied's position until the series of concentric rings are equally spaced.

Modified a Sinar lens board to accept the Hasselblad copy widget, worked really well.



Bernice

Bernice, that same Zeiss Mirror alignment set was also sold by Linhof and some other companies as well. But the Zig Align as well as some others that used a laser, like Kaiser, all did the same thing and worked the same way.

[Oren Grad]

Bernice, that same Zeiss Mirror alignment set was also sold by Linhof and some other companies as well. But the Zig Align as well as some others that used a laser, like Kaiser, all did the same thing and worked the same way.

Indeed:

http://www.zig-align.com/alignment-patterns/

[Tin Can]

Pretty expensive for a mirror and a hole.

I use an old variation of this steel plate with printed grid (https://www.fotospeed.com/Copy-Plate-46-x-34-cm-181-x-134quot;-incl-4-magnetic-hold/product/K5901/K5901/)...cost nothing.

Or this modern grid. (https://www.amazon.com/Photography-Stand-1612WBM-Magnetic-Document/dp/B07DSWYGVM)

I see nobody opened my links to actual Sinar parts.

[Bob Salomon]

Pretty expensive for a mirror and a hole.

I use an old variation of this steel plate with printed grid (https://www.fotospeed.com/Copy-Plate-46-x-34-cm-181-x-134quot;-incl-4-magnetic-hold/product/K5901/K5901/)...cost nothing.

Or this modern grid. (https://www.amazon.com/Photography-Stand-1612WBM-Magnetic-Document/dp/B07DSWYGVM)

I see nobody opened my links to actual Sinar parts.

That is a front surface mirror, not one from a pocketbook. And yes, Kaiser makes a nice magnetic easel but it’s surface was not made to be as flat as a front surface mirror. But they did/do make their own alignment system using lasers.

[Sevo]

I used to photograph for a museum. Which had bought such a thing. It had a no-movements rear standard (IIRC also used on the 8x10 C and on custom ULF Sinars) and a P front standard which was locked with brass pins. I removed the brass pins within days - I was mostly doing catalogue shots of exhibits, where movements were desirable, and the museum already had a old Klimsch copy camera which was far more versatile for copy work (but which my predecessor apparently had not understood).

[Jimi]

Perhaps using the holes where you can put extra risers on the front and rear standards, one could fashion something like the stabilizer rods that Glenn Evans sells, see http://glennview.com/jpgs/sinar/norma/parts/rods/big_2.jpg - that could possibly take care of things going out of alignment when set up.

One of the few things I am not so fond of with the Norma is that one has to level the camera horisontally on the rail, but I guess that is less of a concern compared to keeping the whole thing parallel.

Maybe the Versalab Parallel is useful, just to bring that option in there too. :)

[Drew Wiley]

It's an interesting topic, but all of us have our heads in the Jurassic version of it. I had the paintings or whatever brought to me for sake of my own very carefully aligned copy station. It's easier to calibrate things relative to a vertical copy table than a wall. But for big works a horizontal copy camera on aligned floor rails was the ticket, just like using a horizontal enlarger. These modified monorail or technical cameras were apparently marketed to specialty photographers who traveled museum to museum, where paintings had to be shot in place. Any serious optical table supplier can provide alignment mirror systems superior to the camera store variety. The ancient Egyptians got their pyramids within 1/10th of one degree of being perfectly square using primitive methods; so whatever works, works.

[neil poulsen]

. . . One of the few things I am not so fond of with the Norma is that one has to level the camera horisontally on the rail, but I guess that is less of a concern compared to keeping the whole thing parallel . . .

Getting a little off track, I use the original 4x5 F clamp for my Norma cameras. This clamp does not permit any kind of tilt. If I want to tilt a camera, I can use the tripod head.

[Greg]

Thanks for all the responses. A view camera having no movements being way up there in $$$ boggles my mind since its construction is so simple & basic. But anyways, am in the process of following a lead for acquiring a Polaroid MP-4 for very little if at all any money for the Museum. Still have in storage (shelves in one far corner of the basement) many accessories for a MP-4 including a COPYMATE II 4 lamp lighting unit (with extra bulbs). But more importantly still have a 12cm E. Leitz Wetzlar Summar (mounted on the front of Copal shutter) that exceeds any of the Polaroid Tominon optics. Thanks again for all the info.

[Bob Salomon]

Thanks for all the responses. A view camera having no movements being way up there in $$$ boggles my mind since its construction is so simple & basic. But anyways, am in the process of following a lead for acquiring a Polaroid MP-4 for very little if at all any money for the Museum. Still have in storage (shelves in one far corner of the basement) many accessories for a MP-4 including a COPYMATE II 4 lamp lighting unit (with extra bulbs). But more importantly still have a 12cm E. Leitz Wetzlar Summar (mounted on the front of Copal shutter) that exceeds any of the Polaroid Tominon optics. Thanks again for all the info.

Bare in mind:
These copy cameras are made to very fine tolerances.
There is an extremely small market for them.