Ideas for new shutters 40 years from now when ours are all dead

[Jim Galli]

That other thread has me thinking out of the box . . . sort of. Rotating polarizers that go from total black out to wide open and back again. All you need is 2 polarizers and a motor. Or how about my welding helmet that is black and then suddenly lets light in and then goes black again. It's magic. Know idea how it works. Making clockwork mechanisms with tiny machined parts with hours of labor probably isn't going to happen again any time soon. Electronic black magic or simply light aiming polarizers may be the next wave.

[Jac@stafford.net]

Back in the first nuclear bomb testing decade I recall reading about a camera shutter that was blinkered by a small cannon that shot opaque wax upon the lens. That ain't gonna be popular anymore.

[Jeroen]

Back in the first nuclear bomb testing decade I recall reading about a camera shutter that was blinkered by a small cannon that shot opaque wax upon the lens. That ain't gonna be popular anymore.
Best invention ever! I bet it was patented by Canon.

Back on topic: in 40 years time there will be no more film available, so nobody will care about defective shutters anyways. If you want to shoot analogue, the only option you'll have is to make your own sensitised emulsion: collodion. And collodion is so slow that you can get away with lens caps instead of shutters. Shutter problem solved!

[Michael E]

Or how about my welding helmet that is black and then suddenly lets light in and then goes black again. It's magic.

LCD (liquid crystal display), I guess - just like in a watch or phone, without the back light. I read years ago that somebody was working on a shutter like this without moving parts. Today, it should be pretty easy to set up for anyone sufficient in electronics. Which I'm not. Bummer.

[Jac@stafford.net]

Back on topic: in 40 years time there will be no more film available

In 40 years I will be 114 years old and I would pee on your grave if I did not hate standing in line. :rolleyes:

[Jim Galli]

maybe not such a good day to think out of the box; eh??

[Jac@stafford.net]

Those who think and imagine have no such boundary as a box.

[reddesert]

Electronically controlled shutters are still a going item in optics and laser applications. Uniblitz and Melles Griot make them. They aren't cheap, and they aren't a drop in replacement for Copal shutters of course. For example, https://www.uniblitz.com/product-category/optical-shutters/

I have to think that with electronics and miniature motors becoming so cheap and fast, someone could design and build an electronically timed leaf shutter that is compact and works off a few volt source for between-the-lens or behind-the-lens use. For example, the SWM/HSM motor technology that goes into autofocus lenses today is much smaller, faster and more powerful than camera AF motors of the 1990s. However, there would have to be a market for tooling up to make it. You can buy motors, but the shutter leaves and bearings need finer tolerances than cottage industry 3d printing (I think - I haven't done any 3d printing).

[MAubrey]

Electronically controlled shutters are still a going item in optics and laser applications. Uniblitz and Melles Griot make them. They aren't cheap, and they aren't a drop in replacement for Copal shutters of course. For example, https://www.uniblitz.com/product-category/optical-shutters/

I have to think that with electronics and miniature motors becoming so cheap and fast, someone could design and build an electronically timed leaf shutter that is compact and works off a few volt source for between-the-lens or behind-the-lens use. For example, the SWM/HSM motor technology that goes into autofocus lenses today is much smaller, faster and more powerful than camera AF motors of the 1990s. However, there would have to be a market for tooling up to make it. You can buy motors, but the shutter leaves and bearings need finer tolerances than cottage industry 3d printing (I think - I haven't done any 3d printing).

$700 isn't wholly an unreasonable for a brand new shutter. With a Raspberry Pi or Adruino board to programed to trigger it, you could get solid shutter speeds, too.

Noting that this 45mm shutter is just slightly wider across than the housing of a Copal #3 (also 45mm aperture), I could imagine some creative person figuring out a way to make it fit.

https://www.uniblitz.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/uniblitz-cs45-datasheet.pdf

[David Lindquist]

I recently had a CLA done on a dial-set Compur. Based on the serial number of the Carl Zeiss Jena Goerz-Dagor mounted in it, it is 90 years old. Speeds, except for the top marked speed of 1/150, are now accurate and consistent. Despite this I'm sure we can't be confident that 90 years from now the last Copal shutters made can still be made to work. For one thing will there be enough people wanting them to work to support a base of people who can make them work.

David

[Two23]

Forty years from now? I have lenses in working shutters from 1901, 1905, 1918, ...... I even have a c.1880s Prosch Duplex that's working now as well as it ever did.

Just saying.


Kent in SD

[Pere Casals]

All you need is 2 polarizers and a motor.

Rapid Action Camera (Rapatronics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapatronic_camera) used two polarizers, shutter speed: 10 nanoseconds. It was used to shot nukes while exploding...

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e9/Tumbler_Snapper_rope_tricks.jpg/220px-Tumbler_Snapper_rope_tricks.jpg

Jim, it looks you know what's a photosonics :)


The welding helmet has a switch time that is less than 1/25000s, but (I guess) near a full stop can be lost because it's not completely clear, also surfaces are not coated, I guess. It should be tested if it can degradate image. As it is not completely opaque perhaps a mechanical door should open for the exposure.


Guillotine shutters should also operate well:

https://www.largeformatphotography.info/guillotine-shutter/guillotine-shutter-speeds.html
https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?68605-New-article-guillotine-shutters&highlight=guillotine+shutter

[Bob Salomon]

Rapid Action Camera (Rapatronics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapatronic_camera) used two polarizers, shutter speed: 10 nanoseconds. It was used to shot nukes while exploding...

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e9/Tumbler_Snapper_rope_tricks.jpg/220px-Tumbler_Snapper_rope_tricks.jpg

Jim, it looks you know what's a photosonics :)


The welding helmet has a switch time that is less than 1/25000s, but (I guess) near a full stop can be lost because it's not completely clear, also surfaces are not coated, I guess. It should be tested if it can degradate image. As it is not completely opaque perhaps a mechanical door should open for the exposure.


Guillotine shutters should also operate well:

https://www.largeformatphotography.info/guillotine-shutter/guillotine-shutter-speeds.html
https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?68605-New-article-guillotine-shutters&highlight=guillotine+shutter

Among the cameras that EG&G used for the bomb tests were several Linhof Aero Technika 45 EL cameras.

[Nodda Duma]

I worked on polarized rotating pairs before for a project. The issue is that rotating polarizer pairs do not go completely opaque. The transmission range for a pair varies between 25% (ND 0.6) and something like 1% or 0.1% (ND 2 or 3, it’s just been too long to remember) transmission. Also it’s polarized, so what you see is not what you get.

Worked with fast switching LCD screens too. They have similar limitations.

I have been thinking about reaching out to Uniblitz, who I’ve worked with before on aerospace applications, to see what it would take to make Copal / Compur compatible shutters and then doing a Kickstarter. That’s a project for next year or the year after, tho.

[William Whitaker]

Whatever became of the "Galli Shutter"?

[Peter Collins]

very interesting thread but 40 years from now is beyond my planning horizon.

[Alan Gales]

Whatever became of the "Galli Shutter"?

It should be still around in 40 years. Perhaps Jim has never heard of it? ;)

[Jim Galli]

I plan to be dead in 40 years. But I'm sure the film in my freezer will be put on ebay, so somebody's going to need a shutter. The Galli shutter only works if you're Italian. The no new lenses thread got me pondering this, but honestly, all the same reasons apply. No reason old shutters should fail in 40 years. But I thought ill of disrupting that thread. Again.

[mpirie]

Maybe we'll need to go back to using Homburg or Top hats (other hats are available) as shutters :cool:

Mike

[Pere Casals]

Given the direction things are heading, a lack of working shutters will most likely be a non-issue.

The direction is good. Chemical photography is now expanding and we witness an increasing interest in traditional darkroom crafting.

If film disapears we'll make dry plates and lumieres, if there are no shutters then we'll use the Galli Shutter-II that's comming.

[Tin Can]

Don't be so sure about your plans.

I'm 68.7, my father died age 87.3, mother age 95.6, some of us may live 40 or more years.

Watchmakers can easily make any shutter part, or the whole thing.

Demand is what matters.






I plan to be dead in 40 years. But I'm sure the film in my freezer will be put on ebay, so somebody's going to need a shutter. The Galli shutter only works if you're Italian. The no new lenses thread got me pondering this, but honestly, all the same reasons apply. No reason old shutters should fail in 40 years. But I thought ill of disrupting that thread. Again.

[Bob Salomon]

Don't be so sure about your plans.

I'm 68.7, my father died age 87.3, mother age 95.6, some of us may live 40 or more years.

Watchmakers can easily make any shutter part, or the whole thing.

Demand is what matters.

Most maybe, not all. How do you think they could make replacement linear motors and carbon fiber parts for a Rollei PQ or PQS shutter?

[Len Middleton]

Most maybe, not all. How do you think they could make replacement linear motors and carbon fiber parts for a Rollei PQ or PQS shutter?

With 3D scanning and printing, some of the mechanical parts can be made, in fact turbine blades for jet engines are 3D printed and I cannot think of much more severe applications than that.

However, obsolescence of electronic bits remains an ongoing issue, certainly in general industry and likely to plague our photo interests....

[Tin Can]

Not LF and irrelevant to this forum's main thrust.


Most maybe, not all. How do you think they could make replacement linear motors and carbon fiber parts for a Rollei PQ or PQS shutter?

[William Whitaker]

ND filters and hats.

[Bernice Loui]

Good old fashioned lens in barrel and a good lens cap then count...


Bernice

[Bob Salomon]

Not LF and irrelevant to this forum's main thrust.

Then explain the 0 and 1 size Rollei Linear Motor shutter’s sold in the past by Rodenstock, Schneider, Linhof and others.
Make sure you search before commenting. You can see them at Linhof Studio on line.

[Corran]

Obsolete electronic shutters need not apply.

It should be more than obvious that Randy was talking about Copal/Compur/etc. mechanical shutters.

I highly doubt modern Copal shutters will be a problem in my lifetime, and I'm much younger than most of you.

[Whir-Click]

I like the odds of well-maintained, simple mechanical leaf shutters working 40 years from now and long after. My own parochial view encompasses only Alphax and Betax shutters, and earlier this year I serviced a few large Betax shutters from 1923. There was nothing wrong that a simple CLA couldn’t fix, and I couldn’t see anything to stop these shutters from working for decades into the future.

Alphax shutters have an even simpler mechanism and improved materials. The stamped metal parts are quite durable, springs can be fabricated if necessary, and spare parts are common for these shutters mass-produced over five decades. While I’d warmly welcome new shutters arriving on the market, I’m confident that the well-made tools of the past will continue to serve us far into the future.

[Amedeus]

LCD (liquid crystal display), I guess - just like in a watch or phone, without the back light. I read years ago that somebody was working on a shutter like this without moving parts. Today, it should be pretty easy to set up for anyone sufficient in electronics. Which I'm not. Bummer.

The problem with the no-moving parts shutters are plenty. Total dark is an issue, not easy (or economically possible) to achieve with LCD or optical cell technology. You lose 1-2 stops by inserting those and they are driven by electronics with a shorter lifetime than mechanical shutters.

Yes, I play with the things I just described.

Cheers,

[Bob Salomon]

Obsolete electronic shutters need not apply.

It should be more than obvious that Randy was talking about Copal/Compur/etc. mechanical shutters.

I highly doubt modern Copal shutters will be a problem in my lifetime, and I'm much younger than most of you.

Not at all obvious. He obviously does not know about them!

[Jac@stafford.net]

My modest accommodation for dealing with inaccurate shutters is to find one or two speeds that match my light meter readings. Stick to those and use f-stops that work or filters that make it work. I use a few large shutters and without such measures none of them work properly. So you could claim that I work backwards from what works, regardless of the shutter dial.

[Corran]

Not at all obvious. He obviously does not know about them!

Nor does anyone else, and I see nothing on Linhof Studio's (terrible) webpage, and my Google searches bring up nothing about 4x5 or larger cameras using anything like it. Not sure what the point of bringing up an arcane, basically unused shutter is when discussing the lifetime of mechanical shutters when likely no one has or will use one, but okay.

[Alan Gales]

I plan to be dead in 40 years. But I'm sure the film in my freezer will be put on ebay, so somebody's going to need a shutter. The Galli shutter only works if you're Italian. The no new lenses thread got me pondering this, but honestly, all the same reasons apply. No reason old shutters should fail in 40 years. But I thought ill of disrupting that thread. Again.

Just teasing you a bit, Jim. You better start shooting that film or someone in the future will waste it on selfies, pictures of their dinner, vacation shots of their toes in the sand or worse........cat pictures! :rolleyes:

[Bob Salomon]

Nor does anyone else, and I see nothing on Linhof Studio's (terrible) webpage, and my Google searches bring up nothing about 4x5 or larger cameras using anything like it. Not sure what the point of bringing up an arcane, basically unused shutter is when discussing the lifetime of mechanical shutters when likely no one has or will use one, but okay.

Didn’t really look, did you?

https://www.linhofstudio.com/products/Electronic-Shutters

[Corran]

Couldn't find it on their awful site. No information is even given. Is ANYONE here using these for actual LF?

[Bob Salomon]

Couldn't find it on their awful site. No information is even given. Is ANYONE here using these for actual LF?

Yes, as long as a 3 size shutter isn’t required. Why else do you think that Rodenstock, Schneider, Linhof and others sold them?

[Corran]

Are you saying you own and use them for LF photography?

[Oren Grad]

Bryan, documentation for the Rodenstock eShutter, which is a current product in its "250" version, states explicitly that existing lenses intended for analog use can be mounted in it. So the vendor, at least, has entertained that possibility.

Unfortunately, the shutter unit itself and the control box needed to use it untethered in the field each costs well into four figures in dollars, pounds or euro. Even if one could get by with an outfit consisting entirely of lenses in #0 shutter, and even allowing that a single control box can be used with multiple lenses, the cost of a multi-lens kit in eShutter would be prohibitive for most of us.

So the big question is whether anyone can figure out how to do it for substantially less money, despite what under the best of circumstances is going to be a very small market. I'm not assuming the answer is "no"; folks who have been involved in lens design and manufacturing will be far better qualified to address that question than I can be. But there's the challenge.

[Corran]

Thank you Oren for the actual information. Price definitely seems prohibitive in the extreme.

[reddesert]

$700 isn't wholly an unreasonable for a brand new shutter. With a Raspberry Pi or Adruino board to programed to trigger it, you could get solid shutter speeds, too.

Noting that this 45mm shutter is just slightly wider across than the housing of a Copal #3 (also 45mm aperture), I could imagine some creative person figuring out a way to make it fit.

https://www.uniblitz.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/uniblitz-cs45-datasheet.pdf

The price for a Uniblitz shutter is not unreasonable (especially considering these are professional tools for industrial applications) but the problem is also that you typically need a $1000 shutter controller box as well.

This is partly where I was going with suggesting that advances in electronics and micro-motors mean someone could design a compact, low-voltage, and extremely reliable electromechanical shutter for photography, if only there were a viable market for it. Existing Uniblitz and similar shutters typically use a large electronics box that runs off AC power. However, a modern AF SLR has electromechanical shutter and AF lens motor that run off a compact 7.4V lithium battery. I think that a unit could be designed that was more compact, economical, and portable than a Uniblitz controller, but I doubt there is a strong market case for it when Copal shutters are still quite reliable.

[Amedeus]

For info on the Rodenstock eShutter, see links below to the pdf for both shutter and Sinar compatible control box.

Battery operation is possible and the control can either be a dedicated box, computer or smart phone through and interface.

The aperture is a significant improvement over the Copal 0, 1 mechanical versions but all this comes as Oren stated, a significant price tag. Developed for digital back studio view camera commercial use mostly.


http://www.rodenstock-photo.com/Archiv/Rodenstock_eShutter.en_10383.pdf

https://sinar.swiss/assets/Uploads/Prospekt-Sinar-eControl-EN-web2.pdf



Bryan, documentation for the Rodenstock eShutter, which is a current product in its "250" version, states explicitly that existing lenses intended for analog use can be mounted in it. So the vendor, at least, has entertained that possibility.

Unfortunately, the shutter unit itself and the control box needed to use it untethered in the field each costs well into four figures in dollars, pounds or euro. Even if one could get by with an outfit consisting entirely of lenses in #0 shutter, and even allowing that a single control box can be used with multiple lenses, the cost of a multi-lens kit in eShutter would be prohibitive for most of us.

So the big question is whether anyone can figure out how to do it for substantially less money, despite what under the best of circumstances is going to be a very small market. I'm not assuming the answer is "no"; folks who have been involved in lens design and manufacturing will be far better qualified to address that question than I can be. But there's the challenge.


Cheers,

[Corran]

Personally, it'll be a cold day in Hell before I shoot LF film with the aid of a smart phone!

193659

[Amedeus]

So the big question is whether anyone can figure out how to do it for substantially less money, despite what under the best of circumstances is going to be a very small market. I'm not assuming the answer is "no"; folks who have been involved in lens design and manufacturing will be far better qualified to address that question than I can be. But there's the challenge.

All depends on where you develop and manufacture quite frankly. The development of all the tooling required to stamp the parts takes time and is mostly a lost art unless you want to hire a number of watch makers.

It can always be done but in order for a company, large or small, to make money on it, any new shutter development and production is going to require a capital investment.

Copal announced a long time ago that they were shuttering the business. No one stepped up and the digital MF lens manufacturers had to roll their own.

There's no Copal 3 (or 00, 0, 1) replacement for LF photography. The Melles Griot and Uniblitz shutters are geared towards optical benches and lab work. Yes, they can be used and yes, you can make a less expensive control box in small quantities but how many are willing to pay for a $1k shutter combo that is 4" in diameter and has a max speed of 1/60th second.

I'm happy I have a few digital Sinar shutters for my LF needs and few mechanical Copal ones for back up.

YMMV,

Cheers,

[Amedeus]

Personally, it'll be a cold day in Hell before I shoot LF film with the aid of a smart phone!

193659

Hell has frozen over a few times in my lifetime ... :o

[Jim Noel]

Personally, it'll be a cold day in Hell before I shoot LF film with the aid of a smart phone!

193659

second that

[Tin Can]

A money pit that leads nowhere good.

I may hammer my digital disease to oblivion.

or not

:)






Personally, it'll be a cold day in Hell before I shoot LF film with the aid of a smart phone!

193659

[Bob Salomon]

Are you saying you own and use them for LF photography?

Used the system, yes, often. Currently,no. At my age it becomes difficult to haul that stuff around anymore! But I still have the control on my phone, should I suddenly lose my arthritis and have my torn rotator cuff operated on again. But all of the orthropods at NE GA, Emory and the VA have told me that I would have to have a reverse shoulder replacement and I really don’t want to do that as it is a last step procedure!

[Dan Fromm]

For those of you who want to explore making controllers for Ilex and Melles-Griot (same thing) electronic shutters, here's a link with very useful hints: https://web.archive.org/web/20170903201625/https://chemie.unibas.ch/~holder/shutter/

FWIW I have an oscilloscope camera with an Ilex Electronic #3 shutter and integral control box. It runs on 110/60. The camera's control panel claims the shutter will do 1/125. I've tested it, it runs at least one stop slow at all speeds. Thing is, there really aren't that many lenses that will fit an Ilex #3. Most of the modern lenses we use have cells that fit Compur/Copal/Prontor standard shutters.

If I needed to use the shutter I suppose I could cut the camera apart, remove the control electronics, put them in a breadbox and make a battery pack plus inverter to get 110/60 for field use. That or measure the DC voltages the internal power supply makes and build a battery pack that produces them. I've never been able to justify the effort.

[Tin Can]

So it runs at 1/50th or less.

Small Packards can do that or close.

I suggest we all stock up on small Packards as the Sinar shutter is already rare and who fixes them, Bernice? I have a perfectly working Sinar I will never take into field dust and grit.

I have plenty of 'Barrel lenses' which are actually Cobal shutters with lens in disguise which are shuttered with a Packard.

A Packard is easily cleaned.

[MAubrey]

So it runs at 1/50th or less.

Small Packards can do that or close.

I suggest we all stock up on small Packards as the Sinar shutter is already rare and who fixes them, Bernice? I have a perfectly working Sinar I will never take into field dust and grit.

I have plenty of 'Barrel lenses' which are actually Cobal shutters with lens in disguise which are shuttered with a Packard.

A Packard is easily cleaned.

There's someone on the auction site who advertises fixing Sinars.

And thankfully, packards are still being made new.

[jp]

Those of us still around will be 3dprinting the lensboard+shutter enclosure and lens threads as one unit. Mechanical parts will be surplus carbon fiber or graphene shutter and aperture blades, and they'll be operated by actuators and timing sensors from vintage drone and robotics systems. Someone will 3d print a packard and think they've come across something completely steampunk retro, but not realize packard shutter will probably be still sold. Come to think of it, perhaps we should be looking at new materials for packard shutters; they could probably be quicker with lighter blade materials operated by a shorter throw tube that does not require as much air and travel.

[LabRat]

If I remember correctly, Kerr cells required high pulsed voltage to operate, and a bit big and clunky...

I have an LCD shutter somewhere that changes its cross polarization when voltages are applied, but as mentioned, they are not 100% light proof and a fairly heavy ND factor... (I found it at surplus and wanted to build a silent 35mm camera for theatre photo jobs I was doing at the time, but the ND factor would have made available light shooting difficult, its large, and no instructions came with it so never messed with it...

A small format Copal type FP shutter could probably be adapted fairly easily...

Steve K

[alex from holland]

Best invention ever! I bet it was patented by Canon.

Back on topic: in 40 years time there will be no more film available, so nobody will care about defective shutters anyways. If you want to shoot analogue, the only option you'll have is to make your own sensitised emulsion: collodion. And collodion is so slow that you can get away with lens caps instead of shutters. Shutter problem solved!

Not when you want to shoot wide open on a bright day.

[Dan Fromm]

Not when you want to shoot wide open on a bright day.

ND filters will fix that.

[John Kasaian]

Thanks!
I got quite a laugh out of the notion of outliving my shutters in 40 years.
ROFLMAO!

[Tin Can]

I said it might happen.

I have already resurrected 3 times, meaning returned to the living.

Worse things have happened...


Thanks!
I got quite a laugh out of the notion of outliving my shutters in 40 years.
ROFLMAO!

[Bernice Loui]

Once owned a Sinar Digital shutter, fastest shutter speed is 1/500 second verified by storage Oscilloscope test. During all the years of owning and using that Sinar Digital shutter 1/500 second was never used... ever. Fastest shutter speed used was 1/60 second and that was on very seldom occasions. More used were the slow speeds of 1/2 second or more. If using larger lens apertures were needed, adding a ND filter works good.

BTW, original Green Sinar has 1/32 second setting ( f22 in Bright Sun = 1/32 sec with ISO 100 film, their take on Sunny 16 ?) on the far left hand corner before "B" and the other shutter speeds.


Bernice

[Jeroen]

Not when you want to shoot wide open on a bright day.
Use an ND outside, Alex!

[Havoc]

Maybe a silly question, but do we need it to be leaf shutters? Is there a problem if we could make something like a focal plane shutter used in slr cameras but with a housing compatible with the Copal/Compur style shutters? On a french forum someone actually made a complete camera including shutter with rolling curtains. He made it from scratch with noting more than hand tools and a lathe. So hand making shutters isn't impossible.

[Dan Fromm]

Havoc, in ancient times a number of makers sold behind-the-lens roller blind shutters. Thornton-Pickard is probably the best known but there were many others.

Little boxes that mounted on lensboards. Lens in front of box, board and standard behind.

[Havoc]

Havoc, in ancient times a number of makers sold behind-the-lens roller blind shutters. Thornton-Pickard is probably the best known but there were many others.

Little boxes that mounted on lensboards. Lens in front of box, board and standard behind.

I know, that's why I asked: do we really need leaf shutters? If I look at a current SLR focal plane shutter, this thing is tiny, very thin, produced in enormous quantities, lifetimes up to 100000 and more shots. It should be possible to fit one where now the leafs of a leaf shutter sits. Right between the cells. Won't look the same and the exposure would be top-down or left-right. But would this be a photographic issue? I have no idea about that. And there are medium format ones made as well.

The mechanics of making with one a Copal replacement is the next issue of course.

[Oren Grad]

If I look at a current SLR focal plane shutter, this thing is tiny, very thin, produced in enormous quantities, lifetimes up to 100000 and more shots.

The "produced in enormous quantities" will go away when CMOS-sensor global shutter technology is mastered. Looks to be still a few years out for large-sensor SLR and mirrorless cameras, though.

[Jim Galli]

Hey! This turned into a pretty useful discussion after-all. Now I know I'm totally on the right track with my Kodak 2D 8X10 that has a Packard living inside of it. The harder part may be using up an acre of film. I can't seem to think of anything to take a picture of any more.

[Tin Can]

Selfies Jim!

[Corran]

Who knows what'll happen with this system (I am not a backer):

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/reflexcamera/reflex-bringing-back-the-analogue-slr-camera

But they are apparently building a FP shutter from the ground-up? Perhaps if successful, such a small start-up would find a way to make a "box" shutter for LF. Small enough to replace Copal 0/1 shutters and fit on a Technika board or larger would be a good start (or integrate into a board). A bigger model for Copal 3 + step-down rings to the various size Compur #2, Ilex, etc. shutters would be the next step. Personally, the price-point to aim for would be $149-$199 per "unit" (0/1 size) and maybe $299-$349 for larger? I have no idea what the costs, demand, or interest would be in such a device but that'd be the price I'd be tempted at anyway.

An SLR shutter is roughly 24 x 36 for 35mm film - so should work "out-of-the-box" for #0 lenses with max. 24mm iris opening. #1 have max opening of 30mm so I guess maybe the unit would have to be elongated vertically to fit. Seems doable?

[Jim Galli]

As long as we've got magic electronic black box stuff between the glasses we may as well program it to be the aperture too. Perfectly round of course.

[Oren Grad]

Now I know I'm totally on the right track with my Kodak 2D 8X10 that has a Packard living inside of it.

You are!

[jon.oman]

I can't seem to think of anything to take a picture of any more.

You need to travel! Somewhere outside of Tonopah. New things to see, new things to photograph.

[Dan Fromm]

Who knows what'll happen with this system (I am not a backer):

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/reflexcamera/reflex-bringing-back-the-analogue-slr-camera

Bryan, their last update in the kickstarter link you posted is nearly a year old, likewise their last post on Facebook. When I first saw the Kickstarter I wrote them off as fantasists, see no reason to change my mind.

I've found a newer report, from late this January. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/reflexcamera/reflex-bringing-back-the-analogue-slr-camera/posts/2395445 They're having problems with shutter design. I'm surprised that they didn't reverse engineer the Copal square shutter.

This is not to say that something like a larger Copal square shutter to fit between an LF lens' cells is impossible or immediately behind a lens in barrel, just that the economics are daunting.

[Oren Grad]

How tricky would it be to attach some sort of timing control to a Packard-with-solenoid, if only to gain a bit more finesse in differentiating slower speeds up to the native "instantaneous" speed?

[reddesert]

I know, that's why I asked: do we really need leaf shutters? If I look at a current SLR focal plane shutter, this thing is tiny, very thin, produced in enormous quantities, lifetimes up to 100000 and more shots. It should be possible to fit one where now the leafs of a leaf shutter sits. Right between the cells. Won't look the same and the exposure would be top-down or left-right. But would this be a photographic issue? I have no idea about that. And there are medium format ones made as well.

The mechanics of making with one a Copal replacement is the next issue of course.

Optically, the difference is between "between-the-lens", and "behind-the-lens" shutters - focal-plane is a convenient place to put a behind the lens shutter. Leaf vs curtain shutters are two mechanical ways of achieving these, and it just happens that leaf shutters were more suited to between-the-lens, while curtain shutters are more suited to focal-plane. If you put a curtain shutter between the lens elements, it will expose the entire image at once rather than left-to-right, for the same reason that when you stop down an iris, it exposes the entire image, not just the center. (Because the iris or shutter is in the pupil plane, not the image plane.)

A shutter that sits just in front of or behind the lens, like where most Packard shutters go, is sort of of uncomfortably in the middle. It has to have a much larger opening than the between-the-lens shutter to avoid vignetting. But if you use a curtain shutter, because it is in the image-forming light path, it does have the problem of exposing only part of the image at a time, like an SLR or Speed Graphic focal plane shutter, with the uniformity and flash sync issues that implies.

I don't think the leaves are really the problem here. There was a demand for many thousands to millions of electronically timed exquisitely reliable SLR focal plane shutters. If there had ever been a demand for millions of electronic leaf shutters, they could have been engineered. In fact, don't some large medium format SLRs have electronically timed leaf shutters (Mamiya RZ, Bronica SQ/GS)?

[Tin Can]

I tried that some time ago with a RC servo like this, but not this one. https://www.pololu.com/product/1049

Too slow, I still have the parts somewhere.

There are newer things to try.

I posted my results somewhere in DIY.


How tricky would it be to attach some sort of timing control to a Packard-with-solenoid, if only to gain a bit more finesse in differentiating slower speeds up to the native "instantaneous" speed?

[Bob Salomon]

Optically, the difference is between "between-the-lens", and "behind-the-lens" shutters - focal-plane is a convenient place to put a behind the lens shutter. Leaf vs curtain shutters are two mechanical ways of achieving these, and it just happens that leaf shutters were more suited to between-the-lens, while curtain shutters are more suited to focal-plane. If you put a curtain shutter between the lens elements, it will expose the entire image at once rather than left-to-right, for the same reason that when you stop down an iris, it exposes the entire image, not just the center. (Because the iris or shutter is in the pupil plane, not the image plane.)

A shutter that sits just in front of or behind the lens, like where most Packard shutters go, is sort of of uncomfortably in the middle. It has to have a much larger opening than the between-the-lens shutter to avoid vignetting. But if you use a curtain shutter, because it is in the image-forming light path, it does have the problem of exposing only part of the image at a time, like an SLR or Speed Graphic focal plane shutter, with the uniformity and flash sync issues that implies.

I don't think the leaves are really the problem here. There was a demand for many thousands to millions of electronically timed exquisitely reliable SLR focal plane shutters. If there had ever been a demand for millions of electronic leaf shutters, they could have been engineered. In fact, don't some large medium format SLRs have electronically timed leaf shutters (Mamiya RZ, Bronica SQ/GS)?

There were other options commonly used for a between the lens shutters.
The most versatile and most recent was the Rollei Linear Motor shutter in the SLX and 6000 series cameras and their view camera shutter. Then many cameras had a gullitine shutter, another was the rotary shutter like in the Linhof Aerotronica. The drawback to that shutter is that it was a round disk with holes at certain points on it. Since it was a circular disk it was much larger in diameter then the lens itself. But it did get up to a true 1/1500!

[Drew Wiley]

Long ago I worked alongside a fellow who couriered military brass in a Jeep back n forth to the Vegas test site. They gave him quite a number of color photos, otherwise classified, that were far clearer and better exposed than anything the public has seen to date. Not surprising. The color was remarkably good. I saw quite a few of those; but he had no knowledge of the technical details.

[Jac@stafford.net]

Optically, the difference is between "between-the-lens", and "behind-the-lens" shutters - focal-plane is a convenient place to put a behind the lens shutter. Leaf vs curtain shutters are two mechanical ways of achieving these, and it just happens that leaf shutters were more suited to between-the-lens,

All true. If someone did not mind the actuating mechanism being outside of the lens, he could put a guillotine or double-leaf guillotine shutter between lens elements. Typically the shutter portion is very thin, perhaps 4mm and slides into a slot between elements. I have a few of different types but a picture of only one.

193734

Here it is in its housing on an experimental 8x10 camera. (The white outline is a reflection of a window.)

193735

[Corran]

Bryan, their last update in the kickstarter link you posted is nearly a year old, likewise their last post on Facebook. When I first saw the Kickstarter I wrote them off as fantasists, see no reason to change my mind.

I've found a newer report, from late this January. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/reflexcamera/reflex-bringing-back-the-analogue-slr-camera/posts/2395445 They're having problems with shutter design. I'm surprised that they didn't reverse engineer the Copal square shutter.

This is not to say that something like a larger Copal square shutter to fit between an LF lens' cells is impossible or immediately behind a lens in barrel, just that the economics are daunting.

Yes I agree, but we'll see what happens. Certainly I hope they are successful.

[Tin Can]

Rodenstock eShutter Electronic Shutter (https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/890360-REG/Rodenstock_e62000_eShutter_Electronic_Shutter.html) still available by special order.

Copal #3 Shutter (3-567) (https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/71069-REG/Copal_CO_3_567_3_Shutter_3_567.html) a larger ID than normal Copal 3 still available.

China seems to have some NOS Nikon labeled Copal 3 shutters they are supplying with the KangRinpoche S 600mm F11.5 MC Large Format Lens. I used one.


Considering the last retail price for Copal 3 shutters I remember was about $2600...

and Cooke offers a new Copal 3 shutter with their Cooke Series XVa Convertible 8X10 Lens In Copal Shutter or without for $2K less there must be at least a few NOS Copal shutters about.

[Greg]

Rarely mentioned is an ILEX No. 4 SYNCRO ELECTRONIC shutter. Control box was labeled "Speedcomputer" and ran off a Lektra TM-8 darkroom timer. Shutter times 1/10 to 111 seconds. Was part of a customized MP-4 with a motorized 70mm roll film back. Portability I guess you could say would be the length of the extension cord.

[Bob Salomon]

Rodenstock eShutter Electronic Shutter (https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/890360-REG/Rodenstock_e62000_eShutter_Electronic_Shutter.html) still available by special order.

Copal #3 Shutter (3-567) (https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/71069-REG/Copal_CO_3_567_3_Shutter_3_567.html) a larger ID than normal Copal 3 still available.

China seems to have some NOS Nikon labeled Copal 3 shutters they are supplying with the KangRinpoche S 600mm F11.5 MC Large Format Lens. I used one.


Considering the last retail price for Copal 3 shutters I remember was about $2600...

and Cooke offers a new Copal 3 shutter with their Cooke Series XVa Convertible 8X10 Lens In Copal Shutter or without for $2K less there must be at least a few NOS Copal shutters about.

Still available is a very poor description! All that means is that B&H does not carry it in stock. It is very much a current product in current production.

[Tin Can]

Bob, you know that, but how would I?


Still available is a very poor description! All that means is that B&H does not carry it in stock. It is very much a current product in current production.

[Corran]

Perhaps more importantly, where in the USA could one go, try one, and see how it all works in person, and then buy it immediately? Not that I'll be doing that ever, but that's what "current product" means to me.

[Oren Grad]

Still available is a very poor description! All that means is that B&H does not carry it in stock. It is very much a current product in current production.

Before everyone gets horribly confused, you're talking about the Rodenstock eShutter, right?

[Bob Salomon]

Before everyone gets horribly confused, you're talking about the Rodenstock eShutter, right?

Right, and the accessories.

[Bob Salomon]

Perhaps more importantly, where in the USA could one go, try one, and see how it all works in person, and then buy it immediately? Not that I'll be doing that ever, but that's what "current product" means to me.

Digital Transitions, Capture Intregation, in Atlanta, possibly PPR.

[Oren Grad]

Perhaps more importantly, where in the USA could one go, try one, and see how it all works in person, and then buy it immediately? Not that I'll be doing that ever, but that's what "current product" means to me.

The place to try a product like the eShutter would be one of the handful of specialty dealers that focus on high-end medium format digital, including technical cameras. But I'm not sure "buy it immediately" is a reasonable standard - many of the products for that market have such high prices and low sales volumes that it may not be realistic to expect the dealers to have everything in stock all the time. At any rate, those would be the places to ask.

[MAubrey]

Alpa is gettings its Copal #0's and #1's somewhere.

http://www.alpa.ch/en/section/products/

[Tin Can]

Alpa has the most insane set of security hoops I have ever seen to look at a product.

Name, Rank and Serial # required.

Now off to view their wonders.

Wish me luck! :cool:




Alpa is gettings its Copal #0's and #1's somewhere.

http://www.alpa.ch/en/section/products/

[Oren Grad]

Alpa is gettings its Copal #0's and #1's somewhere.

http://www.alpa.ch/en/section/products/

If you go into the individual descriptions for the handful of lenses shown in Copal they all say either "discontinued" or "limited availability".

[Daniel Unkefer]

My three Sinar Norma shutters will still be working in forty years.

I have enough LF film stockpiled so I won't be out even then.

[MAubrey]

If you go into the individual descriptions for the handful of lenses shown in Copal they all say either "discontinued" or "limited availability".

:(

[linhofbiker]

Then many cameras had a gullitine shutter, another was the rotary shutter like in the Linhof Aerotronica. The drawback to that shutter is that it was a round disk with holes at certain points on it. Since it was a circular disk it was much larger in diameter then the lens itself. But it did get up to a true 1/1500!

I always like the rotary shutter on my old Pen-F and the shutter of the Robot Star 50. For 2 1/4 on 70mm there was always the British built aerial camera with its Zeiss lenses. Sorry in a senior moment I have forgotten the camera name.

[Greg]

There are still NOS shutters to be found out there. I know this because I have acquired three Copal No 3 and two Ilex No 5 shutters (four of them without f/stop scales on them) in NOS condition on eBAY in the past 2 years. One was listed by a NYC photo store. Think I was just very lucky to view it just minutes after it was listed as a buy it now item. After looking at the other items up for auction by the store, looked like they just wanted to clear out their storage shelves. Four of the five shutters were listed on eBAY by sellers who obviously knew nothing about photographic items... the words "Ilex", "Copal", or "shutter" were never in the titles, and they were not listed under photographic items. If I'm not mistaken those four were all listed under the category of Business & Industrial.

[onecumulo]

Just read a response by Tin Can with respect to Galli shutter availability and other responses on repairing same. I would say that we have fewer and fewer watchmakers who are looking for opportunities to work on shutters. I was one, and if I were wanting to use my skills, I might prefer to work on an interesting pocket watch rather than on a shutter. Most of the really good watchmakers I've met are now parts of folks acquaintance histories rather than friends with us today. Last domestic school for watch repair I knew about was at San Francisco City College...perhaps program is intact, but would suspect that it was closed down at least a decade ago. Look for camera people who know how to work on shutters, and if you want to ensure that there will continue to be some around, have one rebuild a shutter for you. None are going to be storing or maintaining skills without doing the work just because somebody wants to have a resource available in case of a non-emergency hobby application. Better yet, find a few really stuck but otherwise intact shutters, some good guidelines for the type of shutter and go to town!

[Tin Can]

No thanks. I will use Packards.

Every watch I have ever owned broke too.

Good thing my Sun Dial works fine. 😎

[Jac@stafford.net]

[...] Good thing my Sun Dial works fine. 😎

But the sun will die in about five billion years.
Bummer! We can't make plans anymore!