No One Making New Lenses?

[Timmyjoe]

I'm new to LF so I apologize in advance if this question is stupid. I've acquired a couple of used LF lenses from the big auction site, but was wondering what is still being made for LF (4x5) lens boards now days. Went to my old standby B&H Photo and couldn't find any LF lenses of the type I was expecting to use (90mm, 120mm, 150mm, 180mm, 210mm). There were a number of different lenses they classified as LF, but none of them looked like they'd fit my lens boards, and weren't the style or focal lengths I was looking for.

Is no one manufacturing new LF lenses to use on cameras like the Zone VI?

Best,
-Tim

[Oren Grad]

Basically, no. There was a limited run of some Apo-Sironar-S focal lengths recently, still available new at extremely high prices (for example, Badger Graphic is listing the 150mm for $2799). Cooke Optics may still be doing an occasional run of its PS945 portrait lens, again priced at many thousands of dollars.

Apart from the glass, the Copal shutters used for LF lenses are now long out of production, and by all accounts stocks of those are running out. Rodenstock, which still manufactures lenses for digital applications, has been steadily shifting toward electronic shutters and more recently also toward shutterless (barrel) mounts that rely on the electronic-shutter function of late-model digital backs.

[MusicalPhotog]

Most of the new LF lenses I've seen have been more geared toward digital use, and at prices that would surely give you more than pause. That said, there is a tremendous number of fantastic quality lenses in the used market at prices that us mortals can afford. Query the group for suggestions. I'm sure you'll have no shortage of answers.

[Pere Casals]

The limited run: https://www.linhofstudio.com/products/Analogue-Lens-Rodenstock

Also you have the Kang Rinpoche C 600, a modified copy of the fujinon C 600
https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?149304-Kang-Rinpoche-S-600-F11-5-(Chinese-Fujinon-C-600mm-)

Also 180mm apo symmar new in stock

https://www.linhofstudio.com/products/Analogue-Lens-Schneider

[Tin Can]

Plenty of LF lenses.

The shortage is no new shutters and shutter repair is losing techs monthly.

Shutter parts have been scarce for a while.

If you buy a used lens try hard to get a good working shutter.

[Jim Galli]

When the professionals abandoned ship and went to digital, the markets were flooded with superb professional used lenses. It's still flooded. Prices you can get on ebay compared to what it would cost to produce new things would be about 10:1 or more. Meanwhile, no one can afford to make shutters any more cheaply enough to be profitable, even if there were new lenses from the manufacturers. These cameras are like flathead V8's. There's lots and lots of them but nobody's gonna make new ones.

[John Kasaian]

When the professionals abandoned ship and went to digital, the markets were flooded with superb professional used lenses. It's still flooded. Prices you can get on ebay compared to what it would cost to produce new things would be about 10:1 or more. Meanwhile, no one can afford to make shutters any more cheaply enough to be profitable, even if there were new lenses from the manufacturers. These cameras are like flathead V8's. There's lots and lots of them but nobody's gonna make new ones.

I like the flathead V-8 comparison:cool:

[Tin Can]

Never had a flathead V8, but did fix the fuel system on a Straight 8 Stutz Bearcat, which was a bit odd. Then I test drove it in busy Chicago.

Everybody looked twice.

Very much like this one (https://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/cars-for-sale/stutz/sv16/2288564.html), but an original survivor, same color. Under the hood looks familiar.

40 years ago in an unheated alley carriage horse garage, from the 10's's very close to Charlie Chaplin's second Movie Studio. (https://theculturetrip.com/north-america/usa/illinois/articles/the-rise-and-fall-of-the-chicago-essanay-studios/)

At one time Uptown was the big time.

[Drew Wiley]

With such an abundance of used lenses out there, often in superb condition at low pricing, there is simply no incentive to make more unless they're very specialized.

[William Whitaker]

Damn Randy, I know what I want for Christmas!

[William Whitaker]

The last new lens I bought was in 1985 (and that was my first lens), so I haven't helped things much. Like I'm driving the market. Yeah, right....

[linhofbiker]

The last new lens I bought was in 1985 (and that was my first lens), so I haven't helped things much. Like I'm driving the market. Yeah, right....

I can beat that. I bought a new 90mm f/6.8 Angulon in Compur shutter in 1975 (I think) from the camera store in Dominion Square, Montreal. I have bought and sold many LF lenses, now concentrating on those that will cover both 5x7 and 4x10. Wanting to trade my 165 Angulon for the Super Angulon version.

[Tin Can]

A Stutz Bearcat?

I was a mechanic, not owner, making $5 hour in a 60 hour 6 day week. Cash, which was often days late. I liked working on odd cars. We had a Facel Vega (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqjO_WoLUNs) blocking the middle of the shop for years. What a junk. I worked on many XKE some with Chevy engines. I did school bus brakes on a creeper in the street. All new lines, etc. Our best paying customer was a drug dealer. One day he says put this Olds engine in a Ford in 12 hours. Done. Welded it in and made a custom drive shaft.

We also did rare car estimates for $50 as the shop was recognized by insurance co. Hemmings was our cheat sheet.

Helped restore a Scenicruiser (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PD-4501_Scenicruiser) then a cruise to the Kentucky Derby with drunken frat boys. It was stripped of all interior by then. The boys were fine going down, but coming back the driver took the scenic route. They puked the whole way back. We hosed it out.

Then I got a phone call...


Damn Randy, I know what I want for Christmas!

[Oren Grad]

Please take the car-talk to the Lounge.

[Bruce Watson]

When the professionals abandoned ship and went to digital, the markets were flooded with superb professional used lenses. It's still flooded. Prices you can get on ebay compared to what it would cost to produce new things would be about 10:1 or more. Meanwhile, no one can afford to make shutters any more cheaply enough to be profitable, even if there were new lenses from the manufacturers. These cameras are like flathead V8's. There's lots and lots of them but nobody's gonna make new ones.

A swing and a hit. Going, going... it's out a here! You won't get a better or more concise explanation that Mr. Galli's.

[Jim Galli]

A swing and a hit. Going, going... it's out a here! You won't get a better or more concise explanation that Mr. Galli's.

Well thank you Mr. Watson. But . . . it was also my fault that the discussion got off the rails. Mr. Grad gets nervous and upset when people start enjoying the conversation.

[Peter De Smidt]

Tri Tan is making new lenses. Maybe Cooke? Wollaston? Jason certainly could make some if there was enough interest.

[Drew Wiley]

Brass radiators and brass lens barrels go together. I have neither. Mr Galli might have both. ... so back to "brass tacks" lens talk, I guess, which brings all kinds of barrel lenses into the mix of options, not just old brass ones. I got a number of Apo Nikkors downright free; and they're better corrected than most official view camera lenses; but today I was using one on an enlarger. Most of those kinds of lenses still being made have been modified to fixed aperture for various technology uses.

[Jim Galli]

Well I'll be dipped. Learned something today. And a mere $3400 bucks.

[klw]

The shortage is no new shutters and shutter repair is losing techs monthly.

Shutter parts have been scarce for a while.


You might like to see this: https://youtu.be/dcIusrw50PM

[Tin Can]

Fantastic news! We need many more.

I am a self taught engine tech starting at 16. It became a career.

Thank you for this uplifting link!





You might like to see this: https://youtu.be/dcIusrw50PM

[Nodda Duma]

Tri Tan is making new lenses. Maybe Cooke? Wollaston? Jason certainly could make some if there was enough interest.


I have an idea for a lens that I’ve been chewing on for the past few days. Haven’t put the idea into Zemax yet. Maybe next year.

I’ve also been thinking about new leaf shutters.

[Dan Fromm]

I have an idea for a lens that I’ve been chewing on for the past few days. Haven’t put the idea into Zemax yet. Maybe next year.

I’ve also been thinking about new leaf shutters.

Shutters are probably a more pressing need than lenses.

Re leaf shutters, why not electronically timed ones? They need many fewer parts than clockwork shutters. These days timer chips and software for them seem to be stock items.

[Havoc]

Shutters are probably a more pressing need than lenses.

Re leaf shutters, why not electronically timed ones? They need many fewer parts than clockwork shutters. These days timer chips and software for them seem to be stock items.

I have been thinking about using Fuji GX lens shutters. But so far, apart from taking one apart I haven't got far. OK, maybe there are other issues getting in the way but still, documentation on them is scarce and kept "secret" that I don't feel the need to damage a dozen of them to get an idea how they work.

[Bob Salomon]

Shutters are probably a more pressing need than lenses.

Re leaf shutters, why not electronically timed ones? They need many fewer parts than clockwork shutters. These days timer chips and software for them seem to be stock items.

Prontor Magnetic, Schneider electronic, Rodenstock and Sinar E shutter, Rollei Linear Motor, Horseman, Compur Electronic etc.
But except for Prontor and E shutter the others are gone.

[Jac@stafford.net]

[... self deleted - off topic ..]

[Drew Wiley]

Compur electronic shutters from pre-press cameras get thrown away. I don't even remember if I have one stuffed in a box somewhere on my loft.

[Matt Stage]

Yes. Tri Tran has recently introduced an all new line of soft-focus meniscus lenses. They come in a range of sizes from 9" to 30". Each one is handmade and finished to the highest standard. 9” is the smallest and it produces a beautiful image on a 4x5 Speed Graphic -- much nicer than a lot of the classic pictorialist lenses for which others demand a king's ransom. And you can put it in a widely available Copal 3 shutter. Please check it out -- he'll be happy to make one with your name on it.

https://www.tritranphotography.com/tt-signature-lens

[Jac@stafford.net]

I wonder if any have explored Fresnel lenses such as those used for lighthouse projection and more recently for interocular implants. Of course scale is an issue but if we consider pinhole lenses, why not small Fresnels? FWIW I have them in both eyes to counter optical (not nerve) blindness and due to manufacturing metrics they failed miserably, however that should not discourage use in cameras.

[Nodda Duma]

Yes, long ago when diamond turning optics became practical. Theoretically cool, but there is a significant and unsurmountable problem for use in visible imaging.


Fresnel is an example of a diffractive optic, where the surface is cut in steps to provide additional optical power.

The problem is in visible wavelengths there is far too much forward scatter and related artifacts. So imagine horrible, terrible glare that is really bad on-axis. Like not even pretty. It can’t be avoided due to size of the steps vs the wavelength. So they are not useable in the visible, near infrared, or short wave infrared spectrum except in specific applications like for your eyes or as Fresnel lenses for very specific yet difficult to explain reasons. However, diffractive optical elements are used very often for thermal imaging, where the wavelengths are much longer and thus don’t interact with the stepped surface to create the forward scatter.


I wonder if any have explored Fresnel lenses such as those used for lighthouse projection and more recently for interocular implants. Of course scale is an issue but if we consider pinhole lenses, why not small Fresnels? FWIW I have them in both eyes to counter optical (not nerve) blindness and due to manufacturing metrics they failed miserably, however that should not discourage use in cameras.

[Nodda Duma]

Shutters are probably a more pressing need than lenses.

Re leaf shutters, why not electronically timed ones? They need many fewer parts than clockwork shutters. These days timer chips and software for them seem to be stock items.


They are available and incredibly robust...but the shutter companies who make them do not cater to the large format photography market. There’s no money in it for them. So it would require some fool with an engineering degree whose income doesn’t rely on their sale to bring them to market.

I wouldn’t design a lens — some really special lens that could be tuned in some way —for large format. It wouldn’t be worth it. Now 4/3rds or mirrorless cameras...that could be a potential cash cow that would fund shutter development.

[Bob Salomon]

They are available and incredibly robust...but the shutter companies who make them do not cater to the large format photography market. There’s no money in it for them. So it would require some fool with an engineering degree whose income doesn’t rely on their sale to bring them to market.

I wouldn’t design a lens — some really special lens that could be tuned in some way —for large format. It wouldn’t be worth it. Now 4/3rds or mirrorless cameras...that could be a potential cash cow that would fund shutter development.

The E shutter is a currently made electronic shutter that accepts virtually any lens that fits a 0 shutter. Since it is made by Rodenstock and Sinar it takes lf lenses from 28 to 150mm.

[Drew Wiley]

State-of-the art new lenses are being made every day just up the road from me. But their definition of large format is quite different from ours; it's REALLY large. The prices are REALLY large too.

[John Kasaian]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Reinhold Schable and his new Wollaston!
https://www.re-inventedphotoequip.com/Home.html

[Bernice Loui]

Question would be why would any one try to produce a LF specific lens today? There have been SO many lenses designed and produced with nearly every possible variation tried over the many decades to century of photographic lenses designed and produced. LF is not like small roll film (35mm) or digital as the vast majority of LF lensed designed and produced were intended and sold to serious image makers often making their livelihood by producing the highest quality images. It is not like the "hobby" 35mm film market where trends, fashion and consumerism are the rule.

LF lenses in general are a beyond mature technology and market. IMO, there is no need to have any more LF lenses designed or produced as there are SO many out there.

Bernice

[LabRat]

I think (depending on trends) that film photography will be alive and well, or dead... Most tech needs a larger commercial market to sustain a smaller sub-market (like X-ray today) to support smaller production (like us)...

Yea, there's a lot of gear out here now, and that can sustain future (smaller) markets, but I suspect that much LF gear might end up as decoration or props (like I have seen in many non-photographers living rooms...

Well cared for gear can survive for a long time as it seems to have some apparent value to non-photographers as it looked expensive at one time... So probably not trashed...

If there was a big boom, I would expect someone would probably clone maybe a Copal overseas, as most of the parts can be broached and assembled without re-inventing the wheel (like China makes odd specialized LF stuff), but a matter of some demand...

And I'm sure there will be a few techs that can restore shutters etc if not too badly ruined (look at those old cars in Havana that are now supported by cottage industry)...

But expect a lot of new gear with unheard amounts of CAD + plastic, that might only last some years...

Steve K

[Per Madsen]

Imagine a new way of doing this (as a solution with no moving parts):

The shutter consist of an electronic shutter sandwiched between two coated glass plates.

The shutter are opague when closed and translucent when open.

Aperature consists of a number of concentric circles either opague or translucent.

The shutter are mounted in a standard Copal 0, 1 or 3 form factor, containing powersuply and control electronics.

The major problem would be production cost and time for switching between translucent and opague.


Regarding the old electronic shutters (compur ect.) the problem was, that only the shutter timing was electronicaly controlled, using discrete components with a limited lifetime.
The rest ot the shutter was still mecanical.

[Havoc]

Kerr cell shutters have been used but the light loss isn't negligible. Some kind of LCD tech might be usable but again lightloss and speed could be an issue and I'm not sure they are 100% opaque when closed.

[Bernice Loui]

Lots less to go wrong with lens in barrel. Another reason to consider one GOOD Sinar shutter, they plain work and negates the need for carrying several shutters.

That said, Copal, later Compur & Prontor Pro shutters are quite reliable, durable and last for an awful lot of open-close cycles. Keep in mind, back in the days when color transparency sheet film was the primary means for high quality color work it was common for a busy studio and film burner folks to burn a few thousand sheets of film per month.. month after month, year after year. Now ask, how many sheets of film can sheet film users burn today per month?

Regardless, modern Copal, Compur, Prontor Pro shutters are astoundingly durable and reliable for what they are.


Bernice

[Bob Salomon]

Lots less to go wrong with lens in barrel. Another reason to consider one GOOD Sinar shutter, they plain work and negates the need for carrying several shutters.

That said, Copal, later Compur & Prontor Pro shutters are quite reliable, durable and last for an awful lot of open-close cycles. Keep in mind, back in the days when color transparency sheet film was the primary means for high quality color work it was common for a busy studio and film burner folks to burn a few thousand sheets of film per month.. month after month, year after year. Now ask, how many sheets of film can sheet film users burn today per month?

Regardless, modern Copal, Compur, Prontor Pro shutters are astoundingly durable and reliable for what they are.


Bernice

Not really, if you are talking heavy duty cycles.
There was a company named American Traffic Systems in Phoenix. They were a pioneer in early traffic (red light) camera systems. They needed a reliable shutter system that could shoot at 1/500 with full flash synch in unmanned locations day in and day out.
They started out with Hasselblad ELX Camera bodies with a 150mm Sonnar with a spring tension in the shutter so the shutter could really fire at 1/500. They found that the shutter would fail after 100 or 150 exposures.

So they bought some Rollei 6008 camera bodies and the 150mm Zeiss Sonnar in Rollei PQS shutter. One installation was in the outback of Australia at a railroad crossing where they had over 100,000 shutter actuations at a true 1/500 with no failures on a single lens and camera.

We had high hopes for very large camera and lens sales after this but the company made their own camera body and we only got lens sales!

[Jim Fitzgerald]

So as Matt Stage indicated earlier my friend and fellow photographer Tri Tran has developed a new lens for US, the large format photographers. No kickstarter or funding requests. He did this on his own dime. Many of you know Tri has been an avid collector for years and may have even purchased a lens from him. Remember the one of a kind 27" Cooke Portrait lens? Tri owned and used this lens for years along with many others. He took his knowledge in optics design and photographic soft focus lenses and designed and built an amazing lens. We have lenses that are being made to order and are very reasonably priced. With the new technology and Tri's expertise he has designed a lens that rivals the Struss pictorial, Pinkham and Smith, Spencer Portland and others. These are available to order now! If you stop the lenses down they are very sharp as well. You can add a Copal 3 shutter to them but it seems to be best with the shorter focal lengths. This should be a future collectable lens like the Struss is now. The Struss lenses are going for what $4,000-$10,000 if you can find them? Our longest lens which is 30" and covers 20x24 is $2,620.00 plus shipping. Images have been posted and take a look at the link and if you are serious about a lens let us know. Thanks.

https://www.tritranphotography.com/tt-signature-lens

[Corran]

"Very reasonably priced" is a bit subjective. The soft-focus lens market, especially for large and cult lenses, seems extremely distorted to me.

[Amedeus]

We looked at this and played with this and the issues are a combination of speed, 100% light cut-off, the insertion loss, electronics complexity and economics. You can get 2 out of 5 right easily but 3 out of 5 puts you out of the market.

We equally looked at a Copal 0, 1 and 3 redesign with all the required tooling and that was considered not economical feasible under the current market demand.

Cheers,






Imagine a new way of doing this (as a solution with no moving parts):

The shutter consist of an electronic shutter sandwiched between two coated glass plates.

The shutter are opague when closed and translucent when open.

Aperature consists of a number of concentric circles either opague or translucent.

The shutter are mounted in a standard Copal 0, 1 or 3 form factor, containing powersuply and control electronics.

The major problem would be production cost and time for switching between translucent and opague.


Regarding the old electronic shutters (compur ect.) the problem was, that only the shutter timing was electronicaly controlled, using discrete components with a limited lifetime.
The rest ot the shutter was still mecanical.