Bergger releasing new film soon [Archive] - Large Format Photography Forum

Tim V

18-Jul-2019, 04:05

I see via Bergger's Instagram feed that they are about to release a new film, by the sounds of it a re-release of a past formulation.

From their Instagram:

Link (https://www.instagram.com/p/B0Bx3lKIqNa/)

"We are very proud to tell you a little bit of a secret ... For months, we have been working on a new product ... New product ? Well, to be honnest, not completely new... We have in our cookbook, a recipe of a very special film that we are pretty sure you'll love ... Stay tuned, we will tell you more very soon :)

#bergger #backtothefuture #makeanaloggreatagain #newproduct #analogue #film #newfilm #staytuned"

I wonder what this film formulation could be, but maybe Fortepan 100 or 200? Any ideas?

esearing

18-Jul-2019, 04:26

I still have a partial box of BPF200 that I bought back in 2005. Not sure what I am saving it for , but it was a nice emulsion and was often recommended to be developed in Pyrocat HD. I am not thrilled with the Panchro 400 produced lately and a 200 speed film isn't going to replace FP4+ for me. Now if they come out with a very slow film ISO25 that might turn some heads.

Bob Salomon

18-Jul-2019, 07:55

Sal Santamaura

18-Jul-2019, 09:32

If that’s all that they are saying why would anyone here know any more?Why would anyone who doesn't know any more hesitate to post something anyway? :)

bob carnie

18-Jul-2019, 12:57

I think I know as I have been in contact with them .. I suspect it is a film that is sensitive to laser exposure ... I would use this in my Lambda to make film for Alternative Printers.

BrianShaw

18-Jul-2019, 13:54

I’m always intrigued by a new film, especially after having reasonably good experience with past Berger products... but hate this kind of tease marketing and just wont play the game. Yes, I’m a curmudgeon and just not much fun at times. :)

Now tease marketing from Taylor Swift gets me going...

Tin Can

18-Jul-2019, 15:11

Aren't Lambdas very rare?

If Laser sensitive, perhaps the new film is a sign of new Laser printers...

I think I know as I have been in contact with them .. I suspect it is a film that is sensitive to laser exposure ... I would use this in my Lambda to make film for Alternative Printers.

Tim V

18-Jul-2019, 16:19

Thanks for your insightful input, Bob.

If that’s all that they are saying why would anyone here know any more?

Tim V

18-Jul-2019, 16:22

Interesting. Would that suggest then a low sensitivity film like ISO 25? No idea how powerful the lasers are, but assume because paper is slow then this film would be too.

I think I know as I have been in contact with them .. I suspect it is a film that is sensitive to laser exposure ... I would use this in my Lambda to make film for Alternative Printers.

interneg

18-Jul-2019, 16:36

It's an old enough formula to be noodle washed - which was done away with many decades ago by most of the manufacturers in favour of various forms of coagulation or ultrafiltration washing. I've always wondered if Guilleminot made camera film in the post WW2 era or concentrated on papers & industrial/ technical/ medical films. I can find references to a slow ortho film called 'Helioguil' which seems to have been intended for making the continuous tone film positives for photogravure (aka 'heliogravure'). Also found references to 'Autoguil' - apparently a direct positive film, 'LL10' - a line film of some sort, 'Collodium' - going by the name & description, probably a strippable graphic arts film, and 'Minograph' - seemingly another halftone graphic arts film, but with a matte finish that accepts pencil etc. I imagine someone like Dan Fromm will likely know more about Guilleminot's past products than my digging around with my vague knowledge of French.

Fred L

19-Jul-2019, 05:15

I think I know as I have been in contact with them .. I suspect it is a film that is sensitive to laser exposure ... I would use this in my Lambda to make film for Alternative Printers.

Bob,

Would this be a replacement, or alternative (haha) to using something like Pictorico ? What advantages would there be if this was the case ?

tia
fred

bob carnie

19-Jul-2019, 05:48

Aren't Lambdas very rare?

If Laser sensitive, perhaps the new film is a sign of new Laser printers...

There are over 300 Lambdas on service contracts world wide... if I am correct very few other than me will go down this road , but I suspect the film has other applications if indeed I am correct.

bob carnie

19-Jul-2019, 05:50

Interesting. Would that suggest then a low sensitivity film like ISO 25? No idea how powerful the lasers are, but assume because paper is slow then this film would be too.

Hi Tim.. If I am correct I believe so .. my Lambda has seen Ilford ortho 25 go through it, Rollie 25 and of course Agfa Classic paper and Ilford Galerie paper.... I hope I am right.

bob carnie

19-Jul-2019, 06:01

Bob,

Would this be a replacement, or alternative (haha) to using something like Pictorico ? What advantages would there be if this was the case ?

tia
fred

Hi Fred

Exactly... The advantages would be a few.... currently I use Ortho 25 .. the film is real silver film and has the exact same properties as you would expect from silver processed in large trays.. the longevity of this would be the key ..
Also the 400 ppi resolution combined with the extended range of silver tonality and of course the blocking power of real film would give workers to make digital contacts on any silver paper without any worry about degradation.

I have done thousands of inkjet neg's and hundreds of silver negs.... the inkjet neg breaks down over time and also transfers off the emulsion very easy and if you stack three films on top of each other over time you can see the other neg's transformed into each other. The UV light burns through this but it is discerning to see this while one is working on recently processed inkjet film.

The disadvantage currently is the cost of material so I have to charge a lot more for my separations... Also it requires an artist to send there separations to me to develop out.

Currently the people who are using my silver film do so because they want to print on Silver... think Lodima or contact with bare bulb .. These people are not well versed in enlargers and
of course do not have large darkrooms like many here.
These people are new generation and in most cases have never used a film camera but really enjoy the fact of making a hand print aided by the technology they are familiar with.. PS
Also a lot of them have learned alternative photography in school and are practicing it.

think about all the wet plate photographers out there who have never used an enlarger.

But I think the real key is over a long period of time a working artist can buy film when they can from me and be confident it will last a century into the future.

Tin Can

19-Jul-2019, 07:19

Perhaps archival data, such as banking, name rank and serial #, land Deeds

Maybe Libre coin...

We are always one EMP away from the cave life.

There are over 300 Lambdas on service contracts world wide... if I am correct very few other than me will go down this road , but I suspect the film has other applications if indeed I am correct.

Corran

19-Jul-2019, 09:17

Aren't Lambdas very rare?

If Laser sensitive, perhaps the new film is a sign of new Laser printers...

THAT would be awesome - if it was at a price reasonable enough for single users to buy. Imagine the proliferation of hybrid processes - but in the reverse direction to what we think of now.

Probably a pipe-dream.

Tim V

19-Jul-2019, 15:54

I’d buy such a film it was panchromatic and “normal” contrast (or there abouts,) both in sheets and 120 roll film.

bob carnie

20-Jul-2019, 06:31

THAT would be awesome - if it was at a price reasonable enough for single users to buy. Imagine the proliferation of hybrid processes - but in the reverse direction to what we think of now.

Probably a pipe-dream.

Currently there is a digital Pt Pd printing system that Salto Lab and a Japanese company are using... I have heard the prints are quite good.

Tin Can

20-Jul-2019, 06:37

Way over my pay grade https://saltolab.com/

Currently there is a digital Pt Pd printing system that Salto Lab and a Japanese company are using... I have heard the prints are quite good.

bob carnie

20-Jul-2019, 07:06

Way over my pay grade https://saltolab.com/

Yes but this simple device will lead to other improvements and eventually a reduction in price... I purchased my Lambda for the price of a Home, now one could buy one for under 30k .

I have always felt that a flat bed printing system using multiple passes will be the way of the future, I doubt I will ever be able to buy the unit that meets my expectations that is why I am investing in large rolls of silver film and exposing on my Durst 76.
I now have the coating and process capabilities to do large prints and small prints and I will hand make my prints... but I must say Salto is onto the right direction.

interneg

20-Jul-2019, 07:14

Currently there is a digital Pt Pd printing system that Salto Lab and a Japanese company are using... I have heard the prints are quite good.

'amanasalto' I believe is their name. I think what they're doing derives from Salto Ulbeek having acquired a 10,000dpi filmsetter to make 600lpi offset separations back in the early 2000's & then realising it can be put to other purposes. I think they're using multiple halftone screened litho films in register - highlights/mids/shadows & a single hit of platinum/ palladium.

One idea that might work for those who want silver negs without a laser exposure unit at vast cost might be to output an inkjet film positive & contact that to film - would potentially negate some of the density issues that inkjet can have while still allowing analogue film output from a digital file. Obviously various potential issues with this including dust & sharpness/ resolution loss, but there are also some interesting creative interventions that might be possible including using litho film & stochastic screens etc.

Fred L

20-Jul-2019, 08:34

this is weird, the Salto Lab link Tim V shows, leads me to a socialmedia/ UI type of company. I couldn't find anything about alt processes. Do I need to dig deeper in their site ?

Drew Wiley

20-Jul-2019, 12:04

Magnolia Editions has been doing that kind of thing here for a long time now - many hybrid tweaks in fact.

peter schrager

20-Jul-2019, 15:58

Magnolia Editions has been doing that kind of thing here for a long time now - many hybrid tweaks in fact.
thank s for the tip!!

MultiFormat Shooter

20-Jul-2019, 17:30

I wonder what this film formulation could be, but maybe Fortepan 100 or 200? Any ideas?

I'd be happy if they released Pancro 400 in 35mm and 4x5. Both sizes are still back-ordered at B&H Photo.

Payral

21-Jul-2019, 02:02

Should be a B&H problem because both are available in France at least:
https://labo-argentique.com/produits/films/noir-et-blanc.html?manufacturer=4

paulbarden

21-Jul-2019, 09:39

Should be a B&H problem because both are available in France at least:
https://labo-argentique.com/produits/films/noir-et-blanc.html?manufacturer=4

No, its actually a North America problem. All retailers have reported severe problems in staying stocked with Bergger products, especially the Pancro 400 films. For the past year+ it has been very hit-or-miss locating supplies of the films. As much as I like Pancro 400, I have pretty much decided to use up what I have left and then rely on Ilford and Kodak emulsions from now on, because those, at least, are available continuously.

PS: when I first started buying Pancro 400 a couple years back, it was one of the less expensive films. Now, it is one of the more expensive of the bunch.* With the availability problem, there is less motivation to seek it out - at least for me. Its a shame, as I had hoped to make it my go-to 400 speed film.

*120 roll of Pancro 400 is $5.98, and a roll of HP5+ is $5.19, but a box of 8X10 Pancro 400 is $124.95 and HP5+ is 129.95 (at B&H)

Fred L

21-Jul-2019, 11:17

haven't used their films but my main paper is Bergger VC-NB neutral, and it seems to be out of stock at B&H, more often than not.

Tim V

21-Jul-2019, 12:49

I order all my Pancro stock from Linhof Studio in the UK, who can easily get supply quickly from France when they need it – at least pre-Brexit... I live in New Zealand, so I have to order in pretty much anything if I want 8x10" film.

As for this new film, by interest is very much pricked. I hope they announce something more tangible soon.

Bill Poole

21-Jul-2019, 21:13

I was months on the B&H waiting list for Pancro 4x5. I finally got it last winter, and in loading the last of that fifty-sheet box today, I was flummoxed by several sheets without notch codes. I like the film, but HP5 is beginning to look like the future for me.

Tim V

23-Jul-2019, 04:13

Extremely odd to not have notch codes in some sheets...

I've been having great success of late with Pancro in 8x10" with Pyrocat mixed 2:2:100. I've just received another box and will try this batch with PMK in the Jobo using the Bergger Roto Additive to see which I like best. I think Pancro has a really good look to it, nothing like HP5+ but maybe closer to older Tri-X or something with a bit more grit.

I'm guessing too that Bergger is not making a ton of this stuff, so any product and production refinements happening between runs are probably a little less frequent. I know they have made many improvements over the years though, and think it's a top shelf product. I also love their papers. I Like to support the little player as were need as many of them as possible to keep the medium alive and well.

I was months on the B&H waiting list for Pancro 4x5. I finally got it last winter, and in loading the last of that fifty-sheet box today, I was flummoxed by several sheets without notch codes. I like the film, but HP5 is beginning to look like the future for me.

Bob Salomon

23-Jul-2019, 07:15

Extremely odd to not have notch codes in some sheets...

I've been having great success of late with Pancro in 8x10" with Pyrocat mixed 2:2:100. I've just received another box and will try this batch with PMK in the Jobo using the Bergger Roto Additive to see which I like best. I think Pancro has a really good look to it, nothing like HP5+ but maybe closer to older Tri-X or something with a bit more grit.

I'm guessing too that Bergger is not making a ton of this stuff, so any product and production refinements happening between runs are probably a little less frequent. I know they have made many improvements over the years though, and think it's a top shelf product. I also love their papers. I Like to support the little player as were need as many of them as possible to keep the medium alive and well.

Unless some after market entity was cutting large sheets down to 45!

Bill Poole

23-Jul-2019, 10:51

Well, the film came from B&H, Bob, and everything looked like previous boxes. I actually haven't looked at these sheets--just couldn't feel the notch. Will pull one next time I am in the darkroom to confirm. And I agree with Tim--the film does have a nice look.

Bill Poole

23-Jul-2019, 11:50

Exhibit A
193587

Bob Salomon

23-Jul-2019, 12:29

Fred L

23-Jul-2019, 12:44

Exhibit A
193587

good to see someone else Sharpies how much film is left in the box after reloading holders lol

Tim V

23-Jul-2019, 14:07

193588

Cool!

peter schrager

23-Jul-2019, 20:01

There was a really great copy film made by agfa
I used it for making enlarged dupes for alternate process
Hopefully this film will resemble that film

John Layton

24-Jul-2019, 04:56

There was also a really great (continuous tone, blue sensitive) copy film made by Kodak back in the day...and thank goodness, for those wishing to follow the enlarged (film) negative to alt contact print route - that Bergger is stepping up to the plate! I can only hope that this will be available in a multiple of sizes up to 20x24, and perhaps even larger.

esearing

24-Jul-2019, 05:02

I know this doesn't help with the notch code but I was trying to figure out why the burn and dodge numbers on the box image :confused: Just use hash marks to count your film used.
I sometimes put the year&month at time of opening and key milestones like #26 in a 100 sheet box. Lets me know my time table for use and when to order more. Or maybe I'm just OCD.

201901 |||| |||| |||| |||| ||||
201905 |||| |||| |||| |||| ||||
201909 |||| |||| |||| |||| ||||
201912 |||| |||| <reorder>

Tin Can

24-Jul-2019, 05:14

Good system. I will start doing that.

Thank you

Bill Poole

24-Jul-2019, 09:28

Thanks, E. Searing. our system suggests a more orderly mind than my scrawls.

Payral

1-Aug-2019, 00:00

Some more informations about print Film from Bergger (sorry French only)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/atwopbvoxrz7fjq/BERGGER_PRINTFILM_COMMUNIQUE_08_2019.pdf?dl=0
193886

Tin Can

1-Aug-2019, 00:50

Interesting. I will not dare to translate.

But got the the gist of it.

Metric rolls. Imperial sheets.

Must be coming to the New World (market).

😎

esearing

1-Aug-2019, 17:03

From their FB release

RELEASE

In 2014, it was decided by Bergger to relaunch the production of analogue films, based on silver halide technology. PANCRO400 was introduced on the market as a unique, and innovative black and white film.
Relying on this experience, it was decided to introduce a new film on the market :

BERGGER PRINT FILM

mainly dedicated to darkroom use, and especially the making of interpositives and internegatives. It is a continuous tone film, which contrast is easily under control during the processing step.

BERGGER PRINT FILM is coated on a 175 microns PET base, for an easy handling. It is mainly sensitive to blue radiations, and is almost blind past 500 nm. Consequently it is perfectly usable with a traditional darkroom safelight.
BERGGER Print FILM photosensitive emulsion is yellow tinted and is very resistant to scratches. A very efficient undercoated anti-halation layer provides a maximal resolution. The red tinted backside has anti-static properties.
BERGGER Print FILM will be available at the beginning of september in the following sizes :
sheets 4x5 – 5x7 – 8x10 -11x14
rolls 50,8cm x 10 m – 108 cm x 10 m
-- end Bergger release

For comparison: Ilford Ortho is sensitive to 550 NM blue and some green , and FP4+ looks about 630NM (slightly into the reds) per ilford tech sheets.

Corran

1-Aug-2019, 19:48

sheets 4x5 – 5x7 – 8x10 -11x14
rolls 50,8cm x 10 m – 108 cm x 10 m

Interesting, 20 and ~42 inch wide rolls, I will be interested to see what the cost is. I have some ideas for using large glass plates for printing certain things, but this would be an off-the-shelf, easier solution for making large positives.

Tin Can

1-Aug-2019, 23:42

And non digital.

Reviews, pricing and availability will be crucial.

Might spark enlarger usage.

X-Ray replacement...

Payral

4-Aug-2019, 04:55

194008
194009

Tin Can

4-Aug-2019, 05:02

Like!

esearing

4-Aug-2019, 06:59

interneg

4-Aug-2019, 09:59

Questions - If it is continuous tone film, why are the only images so far as black vs white high contrast. A positive of a step wedge would be more informative. And wouldn't the yellow tinting and red backing alter or inhibit a projected image for printing on VC paper?

I think they're imprecise translations of acutance dye (yellow) and anti-halation backing (red), both of which are characteristic of various normal-ish contrast technical films like Kodak Gravure Positive film. These dyes are usually destroyed/ removed in processing - 4135 Gravure Positive tends to make the developer rather pink/ red. And a step wedge is not what you need at this stage, rather more useful would be a specification of the potential contrast ranges it can be developed to in various developers. A step wedge of one contrast/ process situation would be at best only a very partial description. The Bergger film might have a relationship to Agfa Avitone P3p-HR in emulsions & manufacture - some of the specifications and descriptions track rather closely.

bob carnie

4-Aug-2019, 12:06

The Durst Lambda 76 is designed for laser exposure to any material that is light sensitive it seems.. Basically a exposure sweep is preformed by the unit which is then processed in chemicals of choice. For this film I will use HC110 and figure out the dilution.. I have used Rollie Ortho and Ilford Ortho so I will have starting balances for both exposure and film development.

The sweep generates a 21 step wedge which in turn is read on the onboard densitometer and a calculation is done to adjust the laser power to create a linearized 21 step wedge. this usually takes two or three goes and it is then balanced for the film.
From here then I would use Richard Boutwell's systems for generating custom curve shapes for all the different papers.. Lodima, Lupex, Berger and so on , as well Pt Pd curve shapes.

Once a curve has been applied to the image and of course figuring out whether I am sending an Inverted or not file to the Lambda is done and in a day quite a few custom films can be produced. I am super excited to be doing this.
Contact prints using these types of film have exceptional resolution, and can work from any and all source capture and be designed to work on any process... Got to love it.

I must add that I am using super large trays to process 30 x 44 inch sheets at a time so I can gang up smaller images or do one large film... I use 50 litres of Developer in the tray, 50 litres of Stop bath, and two fixing baths of 50 litres each. This allows the film to safely process out and in a given day I can do major work to make it all worth while.