Trial with the new B's 4x5 Developing reel

[ndwgolf]

Here is a test shot with my 4x5 Chamonix and 210 mm lens.
I used the new B's Developing reel and put it on the B's Processor https://www.bounetphoto.com/bs-film-shop
I used 500 ml of chemicals in the Paterson 3 reel tank (For normal processing it takes 980ml). My gut feeling is that 500ml is not enough as the top of the neg has not developed the same as the bottom, also the left hand side which is closest to the middle is also under developed ..................does that sound about right to you guys
Neil
https://www.dropbox.com/s/edsme2sl5vhb8gm/Neil%27s-Photography102.jpg?raw=1

Set up

https://www.dropbox.com/s/inmbcbp49ma46ka/IMG_4410.jpg?raw=1

The loading of the real was fine I just think I need more chemicals as the tank is not 100% horizontal

Neil

[Tin Can]

Perhaps you need to do immediate inversions after pouring in chems.

[ndwgolf]

Perhaps you need to do immediate inversions after pouring in chems.

You mean for the first minute and if so still go with 500 ml.
Neil

[Tin Can]

I would try it both ways, with full tank and 500ml.

See what develops.





You mean for the first minute and if so still go with 500 ml.
Neil

[Pere Casals]

I just think I need more chemicals as the tank is not 100% horizontal

It's the counter, you need to level your thank and then you'll waste less chemicals. Perhaps you may reverse (flip) the tank position.

[Tin Can]

Pere, not possible to reverse the tank on that device.

Watch the video.


It's the counter, you need to level your thank and then you'll waste less chemicals. Perhaps you may reverse (flip) the tank position.

[ndwgolf]

It's the counter, you need to level your thank and then you'll waste less chemicals. Perhaps you may reverse (flip) the tank position.

Not possible

[ndwgolf]

I’m away for a few days. When I get home I will try 600 ml and see if I can get full coverage

[Pere Casals]

Pere, not possible to reverse the tank on that device.

Watch the video.

Randy, yes, you are right... I've just seen it...

In this case I'd perhaps add a ring (or two) in the tank, something like this:

193280

or perhaps the device can be inclinated.

IMHO the tank has to be operated horizontal, that inclination is unnacepable. To me this has to be fixed.

[Tin Can]

Perhaps, tank inclination helps mixing inside.

I would use more dilute developer and fill the tank almost full.. not 100% full.








Randy, yes, you are right... I've just seen it...

In this case I'd perhaps add a ring (or two) in the tank, something like this:

193280

or perhaps the device can be inclinated.

IMHO the tank has to be operated horizontal, that inclination is unnacepable. To me this has to be fixed.

[Pere Casals]

Perhaps, tank inclination helps mixing inside.

I would use more dilute developer and fill the tank almost full.. not 100% full.

yes... but still we would waste a lot of developer in that way.

Say that we use Xtol diluted 1:2, 6 sheets require 150ml stock, so 450ml of dilution, beyond that we are wasting developer.

[Tin Can]

I use Rodinol for everything. 10ML per 80 sq inches, usually 1/100.

ymmv

Sometimes I use PQ, rarely.




yes... but still we would waste a lot of developer in that way.

Say that we use Xtol diluted 1:2, 6 sheets require 150ml stock, so 450ml of dilution, beyond that we are wasting developer.

[Alan9940]

I've used the B's reel with inversion agitation and never had any issues. I was thinking about getting the processor so I'm glad I stumbled across this post. FWIW, Beniot is working on an extension piece that will "jostle" the tank as it rotates. See attached. He told me that he planned to have this up on his website last weekend, but I just checked and it's not there. Since the store will be closed for a month in a few days, I'd suspect we won't see this new piece until late August at the earliest.

193281

[ndwgolf]

I've used the B's reel with inversion agitation and never had any issues. I was thinking about getting the processor so I'm glad I stumbled across this post. FWIW, Beniot is working on an extension piece that will "jostle" the tank as it rotates. See attached. He told me that he planned to have this up on his website last weekend, but I just checked and it's not there. Since the store will be closed for a month in a few days, I'd suspect we won't see this new piece until late August at the earliest.

193281

I got that piece with my order as a freebie. I didn’t use it on my first test

[Mick Fagan]

You may be able to make a simple wedge, either directly by sawing a piece of timber, or by using a block at one end to make a platform that directly counters the angle of the unit.

You may need to ensure the tank doesn't walk off the the left of the drive wheels by placing it near a solid object, maybe a wall.

Looks interesting, but I would be a bit worried about water getting inside the power unit, either via the knob or the power inlet. One day things will get wet, trust me. :-)

Mick.

[ndwgolf]

You may be able to make a simple wedge, either directly by sawing a piece of timber, or by using a block at one end to make a platform that directly counters the angle of the unit.

You may need to ensure the tank doesn't walk off the the left of the drive wheels by placing it near a solid object, maybe a wall.

Looks interesting, but I would be a bit worried about water getting inside the power unit, either via the knob or the power inlet. One day things will get wet, trust me. :-)

Mick.

I talked with Benoît yesterday and he said 500ml is the max. My concern also is that the Paterson tank lid will leak chemicals onto the power end. I’ve already decided to put a sheet of plastic on top of the power unit just Incase it does leek.
Neil

[tonyowen]

Maybe not exactly relevant, but my Jobo 2500 tank plus 2509 reel takes 270ml and the tank rotates on a simple roller base that rests on the inside base of a tray. It approximates horizontal. I'm surprised that you cannot simply wedge the roller system so that its rotational axis is horizontal.
regards
Tony

[Fred L]

ah, so the roller base is inclined to prevent the tank from walking off, at least this is how I see it. I'd prefer a model that was level and had rolling guides on each end to prevent walk off. This way one cld have the tank level, and if there was a somewhat eccentric wheel, that should help with agitation. The price is great and if it worked with Expert drums, I'd buy.

[ndwgolf]

The price is great and if it worked with Expert drums, I'd buy.

It does.
Neil

[Fred L]

It does.
Neil

the lack of levelness concerns me...

[ndwgolf]

the lack of levelness concerns me...

I would imagine it would be a simple fix to put something under the right hand side to level it out?

[Huub]

yes... but still we would waste a lot of developer in that way.

Say that we use Xtol diluted 1:2, 6 sheets require 150ml stock, so 450ml of dilution, beyond that we are wasting developer.

Here is where XTOL replenished comes into play. I wasn't satisfied with the results i got with my Jobo tanks and 2509n reels in rotation, so i took the plunge about 18 months ago. I use a 2.5 L storage bottle for the mature developer, which is filled to the brim and I replenish with 20 ml of stock for every 4x5 sheet i develop and the results are way above expections. Once the developer is matured, the 1+1 times are a good starting point for developing.

[ndwgolf]

I’m now confused with this dilution talk. I’m currently using LC29 19/1.

[Fred L]

I would imagine it would be a simple fix to put something under the right hand side to level it out?

that would be one work around. would be nice if they supplied same sized wheels as an option vs smaller ones. I would think tilting would also torque the wheels slightly, which may or may not make a difference to the unit in the long term. also wonder if there's a lip or such protrusion by the power jack, to prevent water from entering the guts of the base.

[ndwgolf]

Works better on here I will explain later
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190717/68dbbc2917d321e2465ad4f9aef7e0b1.jpg

[ndwgolf]

Works better on here I will explain later
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190717/68dbbc2917d321e2465ad4f9aef7e0b1.jpg

So for me the B’s reel for 4x5 is fantastic. After my second time of loading it it took longer getting the film out of the holders than it did putting 6 sheets of 4x5 into the reel..
As for the processing part I ended up using my Beseller motor base with the Patterson 3 reel tank and it worked perfectly. I was able to switch direction every 60 seconds and looking at the negatives after the final wash all 6 looked good. I will scan them tomorrow as it’s nearly beer o clock so I would rather wait and do the scanning sober.
The B’s processing machine would work great with the 120 or 135 stuff but I think the besseller will be better for LF
Pictures to follow
Neil


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Tin Can]

Good to hear you are finding solutions.

I am interested in your further success.

[Kiwi7475]

Has anyone had issues with scratches on the negatives using B’s? I’ve used it twice and both times all the neg’s had scratches on the back side (not the emulsion side), and I’m wondering if it’s from the B’s. I also use a Pat 3 but manual development (full) with PMK. Film was FP4+. Never had this issue before with the SP-445 and I’ve run hundreds through it. Now I tried b’s and got this issue.

[ndwgolf]

This has really pissed me off now. I used to get the same BS bubbles when I used the Taco method to develop B%W film..........could it be the developer (LC29) or what??
https://www.dropbox.com/s/tb0s89hz501yaea/Bang-Pre-%283%29.jpg?raw=1
https://www.dropbox.com/s/3inz8291f77psqp/Neil%27s-Photography103.jpg?raw=1

[ndwgolf]

There is defiantly something going on with my developing process that is causing this bubbles and streaky lines. Time to go back to MF Digital I think :( :( :(

https://www.dropbox.com/s/3x8cn1vm40jawwx/Neil%27s-Photography1031.jpg?raw=1

[Kiwi7475]

There is defiantly something going on with my developing process that is causing this bubbles and streaky lines. Time to go back to MF Digital I think :( :( :(

https://www.dropbox.com/s/3x8cn1vm40jawwx/Neil%27s-Photography1031.jpg?raw=1

I understand your frustration and I’m having issues myself with B’s... but why not use SP-445? I have nothing but great things to say about it. You should try before you give up 4x5.... :-)

[Alan9940]

I understand your frustration and I’m having issues myself with B’s... but why not use SP-445? I have nothing but great things to say about it. You should try before you give up 4x5.... :-)

Except that some of us have had issues with the SP-445, too; like a faint shadow image of the film holder cutouts, or emulsion digs from the little clips that hold the film. Best solution for LF film development, IMO, is the Jobo Expert Drum.

[Kiwi7475]

Except that some of us have had issues with the SP-445, too; like a faint shadow image of the film holder cutouts, or emulsion digs from the little clips that hold the film. Best solution for LF film development, IMO, is the Jobo Expert Drum.

I’d be interested in trying it but at 10x the cost of a SP-445 (not including the Jobo), it’s a tough proposition.

[Alan9940]

I’d be interested in trying it but at 10x the cost of a SP-445 (not including the Jobo), it’s a tough proposition.

You don't need the Jobo itself; the Expert Drum can be run on a motorized base. Some have constructed a simple roller base and rolled the drum manually. The drum itself is certainly quite a bit more expensive than an SP-445, but, in my experience, it's foolproof. We all have different needs, though...

[Fred L]

As someone who has developed 4x5 (and 8x10) in Simma print tubes, on a roller base, all I can say is, pay now, or pay later. The Jobo Expert drums are simply the best out there, imo, for processing sheet films. The pocketbook pain is heavy, no way around that, but you'll have fewer, if any issues, with processing. I have a Jobo CPP-2 (serial 2xxxxx) as well (don't use it much lately) but am seriously looking at the Stark processors.

[Pere Casals]

The Jobo Expert drums are simply the best out there, imo, for processing sheet films.

Jobo Expert is a fantastic product, it's top quality and very useful, but IMHO it isn't the best for processing sheet films, it may be the best for "rotary sheet processing" for some people.

While rotary may be the best for some other may prefer not having continuous agitation... and use agitation as a control factor for compensation in the highlights. Also some may want to prevent any oxydation in the developer.

IMHO the Expert is a very, very good product, but I don't like it at all for BW, I just want trays for that. So this is a YMMV.

[Alan9940]

IMHO the Expert is a very, very good product, but I don't like it at all for BW, I just want trays for that. So this is a YMMV.

No doubt about it. I use homemade tubes for extreme minimal agitation development and tanks/hangers for other minimal agitation techniques. IMO, one size definitely does not fit all when it comes to film development. ;)

[interneg]

Pere, have you actually used an Expert Drum? Or is it a supposition based on inexperience and assumptions about an excessive need for compensating development? How many negatives have you genuinely had to use compensating development on & would they have made better prints if the negative was developed fairly normally and then flash/ fog/ masking used at the print stage if necessary?

[Fred L]

IMHO the Expert is a very, very good product, but I don't like it at all for BW, I just want trays for that. So this is a YMMV.
I wasn't comparing it to trays. It was tanks/reels and drums, as that's what the topic was about. Afaic, it's either the Expert drums, or trays. I'd suggest hangers and tanks, but those inhale chemistry like a camel swallows water in the desert (so to speak).

[interneg]

... it's either the Expert drums, or trays.

As much as people might dislike it, that's the truth of the matter.


I'd suggest hangers and tanks, but those inhale chemistry like a camel swallows water in the desert (so to speak).

Hah - and there are few truly effective hanger/ rack setups - the ones from Hewes are really nice & lock the hangers in place, but otherwise it's pretty inefficient unless you have the consistent throughput to run them replenished with all the process controls implied by that.

[Corran]

HP Combiplan can develop 6 sheets with 1000mL of chemistry, or you can back-to-back the sheets with the same amount - meaning less than 100ml per sheet.

I've done it for years now and film development cost is minuscule using Rodinal, HC-110, or replenished developers. More exotic developers that cost more of course, cost more...

I've never had any development problems in all my years, including using BTZS tubes for small-batch or single development, trays, or the Combiplan. I don't fill the Combiplan FYI - I mix the chemicals in the tank, then in the dark load the film holder and dunk it straight in, put the top on, then turn the lights back on.

Lots of options other than a Jobo. Never really saw the appeal myself. Good luck.

[Alan9940]

I wasn't comparing it to trays. It was tanks/reels and drums, as that's what the topic was about. Afaic, it's either the Expert drums, or trays. I'd suggest hangers and tanks, but those inhale chemistry like a camel swallows water in the desert (so to speak).

There are many ways to develop 4x5 sheet film:

* Tanks such as the Nikkor or Nikkor-style stainless steel tanks, SP-445, CombiPlan, various inserts to go into a Paterson tank, etc.

* Tubes like the BTZS setup or homemade tubes.

* Tanks/hangers (cost is minimal when using developers such as Rodinal, HC-110, various pyro formulas, etc)

* Trays

And, probably a host of other methods not listed here. Just sayin... Lots of options.

[Fred L]

tons of options for sure, and having done most of those, or variations of, I'll never go back haha. Trays would be the only thing I cld see myself doing again, but honestly, after using Expert drums, it does everything so much better, or easier perhaps is better way of putting it. I understand the cost of getting into it pretty much shuts a lot of people out, unfortunately...

[interneg]

The combiplan holder & a few tanks could make a nice dip/ dunk system - the tank on its own is horribly slow filling & draining. Nova used to sell a temperature controlled system based on this sort of mini dip/dunk idea.

Nothing wrong with the BTZS tubes, especially if you don't like shuffling sheets, just less convenient than a Jobo for colour etc.

[Pere Casals]

Trays would be the only thing I cld see myself doing again, but honestly, after using Expert drums, it does everything so much better, or easier perhaps is better way of putting it.

First let me reiterate that the Expert is absolutely amazing, principal drawbacks are the loss of agitation as a control factor and cost.

Also that B's reel is very good, those problems OP has are not related to the B's system.

...but let me point that tray development can be even more convenient than the expert, see the comming SP-8x10 :

193377

193378

This is daylight, you make four 45 sheets, you may use a different development time (N+/-, different films) for each sheet, you move to the Stop bath sooner or later each sheet if you want, after sheets are in the stop (15s after) you can open lights to do the rest lights open, and the tank is ready to take more sheets while you fix-wash...

We can do that DIY, just placing some (cheap) sterilization mesh trays inside an old paper safe, so we move the sheets to the Stop easily, ad we have a daylight tank that's easy to load.

So IMHO it's not anymore about rocking a tray in the darkness, with some DIY or with the comming SP-8x10 trays can be very convenient and powerful.

[ndwgolf]

Which Jobs expert drum should I get for 8x10 and 4x5? and can you use it on a Beseller motor base
Thanks

[Pere Casals]

You have all information here:

http://www.jobo-usa.com/images/manuals/Expert_drums.pdf

https://web.archive.org/web/20190416041721/http://www.jobo-usa.com/images/manuals/Expert_drums.pdf

[Bob Salomon]

The combiplan holder & a few tanks could make a nice dip/ dunk system - the tank on its own is horribly slow filling & draining. Nova used to sell a temperature controlled system based on this sort of mini dip/dunk idea.

Nothing wrong with the BTZS tubes, especially if you don't like shuffling sheets, just less convenient than a Jobo for colour etc.

As long as you give the light tight hose connector a half twist when filling or emptying the times are consistent. So you start timing when you start to pour and stop when it is fully empty. Just twist the connector closed before agitating.

[seezee]

The combiplan holder & a few tanks could make a nice dip/ dunk system - the tank on its own is horribly slow filling & draining. Nova used to sell a temperature controlled system based on this sort of mini dip/dunk idea.

That's why I fill and drain mine with the lid off and in the dark (or under red light for x-ray film). The real barrier is it's no longer being manufactured & the remaining stock of spare parts is diminishing.

[Fred L]

Which Jobs expert drum should I get for 8x10 and 4x5? and can you use it on a Beseller motor base
Thanks


3010 for 4x5 and 3005 for 8x10. there's also a 3006 which can be used for 4x5 and 5x7. I presume your Beseler base shld work fine as I use a Simma roller base. It doesn't reverse direction, but does have offset wheels which kind of rocks the drum left to right. I flip the drum manually if I want reverse direction.

[Bob Salomon]

That's why I fill and drain mine with the lid off and in the dark (or under red light for x-ray film). The real barrier is it's no longer being manufactured & the remaining stock of spare parts is diminishing.

Spare parts aren’t that big a problem. When we sold our inventory to Omega Brandess there was a lifetime supply of most parts, except for the tank bodies.
The reason that the CombiPlan was discontinued was that the tool for the tank body had finally worn out and the cost of a new one was too much considering our worldwide sales and that 45 sales were also in decline.

If you like using it as a multiple line tank setup you might try to find its brother, the 45 CombiPlan L, you have the T version.
The difference was the L had a screw in plug in the bottom instead of the Light Tight Hose Connector and a hard plastic drop on lid rather the the rubber lid. A floating lid was available as an accessory as were plastic numbers for the tank body. Of course this version could not do daylight processing or inversion agitation. But it did make a very compact multiple tank system.

[Bob Salomon]

That's why I fill and drain mine with the lid off and in the dark (or under red light for x-ray film). The real barrier is it's no longer being manufactured & the remaining stock of spare parts is diminishing.

Spare parts aren’t that big a problem. When we sold our inventory to Omega Brandess there was a lifetime supply of most parts, except for the tank bodies.
The reason that the CombiPlan was discontinued was that the tool for the tank body had finally worn out and the cost of a new one was too much considering our worldwide sales and that 45 sales were also in decline.

If you like using it as a multiple line tank setup you might try to find its brother, the 45 CombiPlan L, you have the T version.
The difference was the L had a screw in plug in the bottom instead of the Light Tight Hose Connector and a hard plastic drop on lid rather the the rubber lid. A floating lid was available as an accessory as were plastic numbers for the tank body. Of course this version could not do daylight processing or inversion agitation. But it did make a very compact multiple tank system.

But we discontinued the L version in 83 even though parts were available for at least 10 more years until we just threw out whatever parts were left in inventory.

[seezee]

I've actually ordered parts from Omega Brandess thanks to an earlier post by you, Bob. Good to know they have plenty of parts remaining.