View Full Version : Photography and Plagiarism - A Personal Story
Merg Ross
7-Jul-2019, 21:05
I have omitted the backstory of how, at the age of eight, I sat on a barstool in the home of Edward Weston viewing his photographs as he placed each 8x10 gelatin silver print on an easel under the skylight.
That was in 1949, and in 1951 my visit took on significance; I was no longer a mere observer, I had become a participant in the art of photography! On my tenth birthday that year, Grandmother gave me a preloaded mail-in box camera equipped with a simple shutter and wire viewfinder. It was named a Hollywood camera; for two years I produced photographs with feelings of accomplishment and excitement. The camera provided a dozen exposures, after which, with a dollar bill placed inside and stamps affixed, it was mailed away. Approximately ten days later a new camera arrived accompanied by the negatives and resulting square prints made with the previous camera. Depending on subject distance and light intensity, the prints were sometimes satisfactory. However, most often they lacked the focus for close-up photography, which was the way I viewed things.
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Recently, I made some prints from the Hollywood camera negatives. They represent my initial attempts at photography almost seven decades ago at the age of ten. One of the prints was of a subject, earlier photographed by Edward Weston in 1939; specifically, a broken window at the Golden Circle Mine in Death Valley. I located a reproduction of his image and placed it next to mine taken a dozen years later with my box camera.
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The two photographs are strikingly similar, with the exception of lighting and deterioration between our respective visits --- similar enough to border on photography plagiarism. However, I do not recall if I had yet viewed Edward's photograph from my barstool perch; if so, I prefer to think of the similarities as a case of inspiration, rather than one of imitation. I could not have had a better teacher. In any event, my fascination with broken windows as worthy subjects originated at the Golden Circle Mine in 1951.
Edward Weston photo ©, Arizona Board of Regents
I don't have the photo handy, but in the 90's, I was in the old financial district in lower Manhattan on a dead, dark, empty monochrome afternoon (way pre OWS)... I had a barely working Leica M with a 35mm lens on it, and 2475 recording film in it... Wall St looked dark and dead... I noticed the sky would turn white, but the buildings were cold and dark, so an extreme contrast...
I had read long before an article by Bernice Abbot about adding feeling to architecture photos by choice of angle, by allowing the building to stretch up to the sky in harmony if they were the epitome of progress, or maybe they were man's folly where the buildings might stretch dizzly or even falling!!! She said that this was the choice of the photographer...
It was dark and spooky in the bottom of that dark canyon, and I decided to reflect that, and even let some buildings twist on their foundations!!!
So the pixs printed with no grain, due to just no midtones, only very sharp edged edge effects... Just printed 4x5's proof prints..
Had gotten a new Abbot book, and deep inside, an image I never saw before of a high angle bldg shot, complete with swinging bldgs, was a shot I also had done almost exactly, so I figure I must have been standing in the tripod leg spread of Bernice, as all the perspectives matched exactly!!!
Too weird...
Ray Van Nes
8-Jul-2019, 07:38
A couple of times I had the delightful experience of encountering a subject covered by someone well known. On both occasions , I also made an image with no intention of sharing it but enjoying the recognition of the original inspiration of the artist. One was stair post at the imperial palace in Kyoto that had been taken by Brett Weston. Mine on that occasion was a bit soft but even if it had been successful, I would not share it without recognizing its origins.
Great story, Merg.
Photographing in Yosemite over the years, it is difficult not to accidently use the same tripod holes as Adams, Sexton, et al. I found this one of mine in one of Sexton's books, Listen to the Trees, plate No.46.
The quality of light is similar, his image is a vertical. His is a silver gelatin print from a 4x5 (I've never seen the actual print) and mine is an 8x10 platinum/palladium print. Personally I like mine better, but I'm a bit biased.
His image is dated 3/1991, and I made mine in 2005 (his book was published in 1994). I got the book in 2010 or so.
This scene can be easily seen from the road just as one enters through the the entrance station on Hwy 140 and passes through the rock arch. Adams probably had a negative of the scene, but never printed it, LOL!
Interesting stories.
I am not sure any of these examples are plagiarism.
Read this. Photography: Avoiding Plagiarism (https://libguides.uky.edu/c.php?g=223192&p=1477585)
And this link from the above. http://libguides.uky.edu/plagiarism
Perhaps some will seek evidence. https://www.copyright.gov/
I have found a few of my images in odd places, during an image search, but thought it a lost cause.
Merg you are not guilty, age 10!
Doremus Scudder
8-Jul-2019, 11:04
I've done similar things, i.e., inadvertently photographing the same scene in almost the same way as one of the greats before me had (though not at age 10...). If I discover that my version is too close to a well-known earlier one I'll retire the image, but sometimes I think my image is different enough to warrant exhibiting.
Case in point:
Ansel Adams - Zabriskie Point, made in 1942:
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... and my "Furrows" made in 1998 (below; I can't seem to get it in line here for some reason):
Mine is horizontal vs. vertical and arranged differently. I had never seen the Adams' image when I made this (somewhat surprisingly), only discovering it some years later. I'm not sure that would have prevented me from making the image, however. It's difficult to work popular areas and, if not duplicate, then not address the same subjects and features as photographers and artists who have gone before. I see no harm in that. IM-HO, originality is overrated.
Best,
Doremus
Mark Sampson
8-Jul-2019, 12:04
There's a long history of this sort of thing. Two good books on this subject come to mind- one by Richard Whelan (which title I've forgotten, it's in storage) and Geoff Dyer's 'The Ongoing Moment'.
Here's an example of my own- my wife's family home, a semi-conscious homage to Strand's 'White Fence'.
I am not sure any of these examples are plagiarism.
Certainly not, in the legal sense.
Here's my example. I have a few shots taken close to where Clyde Butcher setup. I was actually hoping to see him here in Myakka State Park when I went, as I was told by one of his gallery workers that he was shooting there a lot recently. No such luck.
Butcher:
http://www.garrisaudiovisual.com/photosharing/myakka-tree-1.jpg
Me:
http://www.garrisaudiovisual.com/photosharing/myakka-tree-2.jpg
Drew Wiley
8-Jul-2019, 13:23
Putting your tripod in the same holes as others doesn't necessarily equate to plagiarism. The lighting might be completely different, the season,etc; and anyone truly skilled is going to come up with their own interpretation of the scene anyway. It's those who don't have that kind of self-confidence that try to copycat.
That's why I did not use the word in my post -- just dang close. I have photographed one of Ansel's trees along the Merced River-- in fact I have photographed it with 4x5, 5x7, 8x10 and 11x14.
Here is the 8x10 version below(carbon print). Because single transfer carbon prints reverse the image, the Merced is flowing the opposite direction!
PS -- the top of the oak was gone by this image -- and now completely gone...no worries about plagiarism!!!
Here is a link to AA's. https://shop.anseladams.com/Early_Morning_Merced_River_p/5010106-u.htm
Well, if I were to "plagiarize" an image, I would not be putting my name on it, rather something like AA or EW, to make big bucks off of it!!!
Steve K
Drew Wiley
8-Jul-2019, 15:04
I thought the Merced River flowed backwards (uphill) so that you can't get to it without paying the Park entrance fee.
( wagging his finger at me ) I TAKE PHOTOS LIKE THIS, DON'T YOU EVER!
and i never did.
merg, plenty of peepol find tripod holes there's nothing wrong with that
j
BrianShaw
8-Jul-2019, 16:16
Putting your tripod in the same holes as others doesn't necessarily equate to plagiarism. The lighting might be completely different, the season,etc; and anyone truly skilled is going to come up with their own interpretation of the scene anyway. It's those who don't have that kind of self-confidence that try to copycat.
I thought the Merced River flowed backwards (uphill) so that you can't get to it without paying the Park entrance fee.
That's one of the benefits of being represented by the AA Gallery -- when I visit the Park I can claim I am there on business and don't have to pay the entrance fee. Not such a big deal anymore now that I have my Geezer Pass.
... One was stair post at the imperial palace in Kyoto that had been taken by Brett Weston...
Dang missed that while I was there -- but I only have a couple 120 film cameras, so it goes.:cool:
Drew Wiley
8-Jul-2019, 16:55
I thought you already knew that the water of the Merced flows uphill, Vaughn. Isn't Mystery Spot down in the Santa Cruz redwoods part of your Bigfoot haunts? Water flows uphill there too, at least as an illusion. But as a species of wildlife, you never did have to pay to be in Yosemite Park boundaries; and being a geezer, I get in free. Ferdinand up at the Tioga Pass entrance would often let me through free for hauling surplus piles of Don't Feed the Bears pamphlets etc to the south entrance. Nobody has the courage to feed a Sasquatch, so these brochures never mention that particular risk. I've always wondered why tourists run screaming out of certain carbon print AA gallery openers down in the Valley. Even bears run. Must be a high ceiling in there to accommodate that specific wildlife. I mainly photographed the lower reaches of the Merced, the Mother Lode hill country, but was way up on the Lyell Fork three summers ago. One of my nephews lives near the lower Merced. My place was on the San Joaquin canyon further south. No bigfoot species there except one. But that's a different story. It's amazing how fast some backwoods campers can climb a tree when confronted with a Hollywood-quality King Kong suit eleven feet tall.
No, its Confusion Hill, along the Eel River just south of the Humboldt County border.
Joe O'Hara
8-Jul-2019, 18:03
Great story, Merg.
Photographing in Yosemite over the years, it is difficult not to accidently use the same tripod holes as Adams, Sexton, et al. I found this one of mine in one of Sexton's books, Listen to the Trees, plate No.46.
The quality of light is similar, his image is a vertical. His is a silver gelatin print from a 4x5 (I've never seen the actual print) and mine is an 8x10 platinum/palladium print. Personally I like mine better, but I'm a bit biased.
His image is dated 3/1991, and I made mine in 2005 (his book was published in 1994). I got the book in 2010 or so.
This scene can be easily seen from the road just as one enters through the the entrance station on Hwy 140 and passes through the rock arch. Adams probably had a negative of the scene, but never printed it, LOL!
I would have photographed that too!
Not saying I would have printed it, though...
Joe O'Hara
8-Jul-2019, 18:08
I've done similar things, i.e., inadvertently photographing the same scene in almost the same way as one of the greats before me had (though not at age 10...). If I discover that my version is too close to a well-known earlier one I'll retire the image, but sometimes I think my image is different enough to warrant exhibiting.
Case in point:
Ansel Adams - Zabriskie Point, made in 1942:
193144
... and my "Furrows" made in 1998 (below; I can't seem to get it in line here for some reason):
Mine is horizontal vs. vertical and arranged differently. I had never seen the Adams' image when I made this (somewhat surprisingly), only discovering it some years later. I'm not sure that would have prevented me from making the image, however. It's difficult to work popular areas and, if not duplicate, then not address the same subjects and features as photographers and artists who have gone before. I see no harm in that. IM-HO, originality is overrated.
Best,
Doremus
Honestly speaking, I prefer yours very much.
Thanks for not "retiring" it.
Jim Fitzgerald
8-Jul-2019, 18:25
When I've been to Yosemite somehow I'm drawn to some of the great images that have been taken there that I have seen. Am I consciously looking for the same tripod holes no!
I'm drawn by the light and sometimes it is the same as one of the greats. I'm sure Ive seen this image before by Ansel Adams.
Maybe my carbon print was at a different time of the year. It was not until I made the print that I realized that it has been done before. So........ guilty!
Drew Wiley
8-Jul-2019, 18:45
Yes, Jim, but even over the web I can spot how different the feel of your image is, and even the perspective. Of course, the carbon print will look very different from a silver one. And AA's tripod went places in Yosemite where many many had gone before. I don't know when it all began, but slightly after the Civil War. My babysitter as an infant claimed to be the first white woman in Yosemite as a little girl. She was 95, as I sorta remember, when she took care of me, and claimed to see Yosemite first as a 7 yr old, so that would have been in 1861 or so. I heard the stories secondhand from her daughter, who was an old lady herself when I took care of her garden as a kid. It sounds authentic because she claimed Indian fashion at the time in Yosemite Valley was exactly zero, just like ambrotypes of Indian villages taken in our specific neighborhood slightly further south in that same decade. But this story is a bit of a mystery because the oldest known photo taken there, by Charles Weed in 1859, had his wife in the party. There was already a little log tourist hotel constructed, and the Indians would have been either driven out or at least made modest. But if my Babysitter was actually in her late 90's, which is entirely possible, that account makes sense. We lived right across the road from her in a tiny house in a tiny town, so her advanced age was not an issue. She lived in relatively good health well over 100. The oldest Miwok I ever knew, though not an Ahwahneechee, was born in 1840, and other very old Indians claim he was a middle-aged man before he ever saw a white man. I interviewed him when he was 122. His utter hatred for local Monache Paiute-descended Indians was in full vigor even at that age. Very few Indians of my own generation lived past 30. That's what "civilization" and its store-bought liquid amenities does.
How about accidental plagiarism?
Back in the late 90s I was driving through Yosemite and saw this tree. Did a U-ey and shot it. I was showing the print to a friend the next week and he got up, went over to the bookshelf, grabbed an Ansel book and showed me the Ansel print. Shame too because I like the print. Last time I ever went to Yosemite.
http://www.patrickjames.net/lff/Yosemite.jpg
https://shop.anseladams.com/v/vspfiles/photos/5010106-u-2T.jpg
But that's a different tree...
We change over time and so does everything else.
We do not live in the past, we live now!
Drew Wiley
9-Jul-2019, 16:34
Millions of people have driven past that tree. Ansel's picture has a classic delicate balance to it, yours has far more dynamic energy to the composition. There's more than one way to make a taco. One of AA's finest shots in my opinion he ever took of the Valley, which I've seen in actual 20x24 print fashion, but only once in a book, is a rather late 8x10 shot he took from exactly the same turnout which every tour bus and tens of thousands of cars stop at every year. That doesn't stop it from being unique, even side by side with many other shots he took from that exact location. I went to Bodie once and set up a 4x5 shot. A Natl Geo dude was conducting a photo workshop and said to them, "Whatever that guy is doing, just copy him." So he dumped the whole class on me and ran off to do his own thing. Rude, but really no problem. They stood around me wildly snapshooting while I pressed the shutter only once. Not one of them got the shot I did. They would to have had in mind the exact composition I did, the same perspective, the same gear. A few inches either side, and nothing really worked except another old stuff scene. I had three compositional planes all precisely lined up which included a tiny little sparrow atop something constituting part of that linearity. They didn't even notice it. Had nothing to do with some postcard opportunity. But I never went back there. I don't like crowds. I did my best work after they all left for the day. I hope the NG idiot got his usual machine-gunned stereotypical images.
Keith Fleming
9-Jul-2019, 16:39
PRJ,
I second Tin Can's comments. Your image is of a considerably older and larger tree--and all the other elements of the image combine to make it distinct. I actually prefer your composition.
Keith
William Whitaker
9-Jul-2019, 16:54
"...the sincerest form of flattery..."
Mark Sampson
9-Jul-2019, 19:55
I am reminded of the saying "you can't step in the same river twice". My brother-in-law, a philosophy professor, tells me that quote is from the ancient Greek philosopher Heraclitus. So it's not news that we can't actually "plagiarize" another photographer's work. It also reminds me of the quote from Mark Twain, "History doesn't repeat itself, but it rhymes".
...btw the Richard Whelan book I mentioned earlier is called "Double Take"; recommended.
Drew Wiley
9-Jul-2019, 20:34
I wouldn't set foot in the Merced at all in Yosemite Valley. It's pretty contaminated in summer, like a bathtub being used by thousands of people on the same day. Up in the headwaters in the SE quadrant of the Park it's incredibly clean because nobody is around. You can walk for a week without seeing another person.
Merg Ross
9-Jul-2019, 20:51
I am enjoying the responses. Of course, there is no such thing as photography plagiarism. I thought that was illustrated in the two photos I posted to introduce this thread, and the accompanying comment. What should have been gleaned, was the idea of inspiration; that is what really matters. Those who photograph in places such as Yosemite and elsewhere, are very likely inspired by those who worked in the area before them, not seeking old tripod holes, but rather a personal interpretation of those magical places. Some very fine examples of their success are posted on this forum.
Did I mention inspiration? So many great photographs yet to be made.
Merg
Peter De Smidt
9-Jul-2019, 21:40
https://quoteinvestigator.com/2013/03/06/artists-steal/
Back in the late 90s I was driving through Yosemite and saw this tree. Did a U-ey and shot it. I was showing the print to a friend the next week and he got up, went over to the bookshelf, grabbed an Ansel book and showed me the Ansel print. Shame too because I like the print. Last time I ever went to Yosemite.
http://www.patrickjames.net/lff/Yosemite.jpg
When I photographed it for the above 8x10, the tree only went as high as the one thinner horizontal branch out to the left. Everything above was gone. Then I photographed it with only a couple feet of stump -- now all washed away. Such changes are good to see, such as long Prairie Creek in the redwoods over the last 4 decades.
Pat Kearns
9-Jul-2019, 21:58
Merg,
Walking around town on my lunch hours I saw images that I would come back with a camera and capture. I shot this image from street level with my DSLR and zoom lens in 2016. I bought your book in 2017 and saw your San Francisco Window Reflections. Your book and images have been inspiring and makes me look beyond the ordinary. If I was proficient with PS I would do more with it, but alas, it has remained hidden from view on a hard drive.
But that's a different tree...
We change over time and so does everything else.
We do not live in the past, we live now!
It's the same tree, just viewed from a different angle, and the lower branch extending away from the viewer has broken off since Ansel Adams' time.
There are two well-known Ansel Adams images from Grand Teton National Park that were taken before Adams did. One is from the Snake River overlook, by Stephen N. Leek about 20 years before Adams, and the other by Joseph E. Stimson from around 1903 that is very close to the one showing the buckrail fence with the Tetons in the background. Leek's standpoint is about 5 feet from Adams'.
Leek was a prolific, talented amateur photographer that lived in Jackson, WY, and made his living via guiding, sawmill, cattle, and was a Wyoming legislator. Stimson was a professional, and worked for the railroad taking promotional photos in Wyoming for many years.
I doubt that Adams knew about either of these earlier images. The Stimson one is blurry, and probably never publicly shown. Leek published many of his elk photos (he had a lot to do with getting the National Elk Refuge started), and he would use his photos in albums for Christmas and the like. I may find out more about it when I re-visit the American Heritage Center, where the Leek papers are archived. Leek's images are generally better than W. H. Jackson's, and many are from the late 1890's and early 1920's, showing pristine or near-pristine settings. One of Leek's hunting clients was George Eastman.
invisibleflash
10-Jul-2019, 07:49
Interesting stories.
I am not sure any of these examples are plagiarism.
Read this. Photography: Avoiding Plagiarism (https://libguides.uky.edu/c.php?g=223192&p=1477585)
And this link from the above. http://libguides.uky.edu/plagiarism
Perhaps some will seek evidence. https://www.copyright.gov/
I have found a few of my images in odd places, during an image search, but thought it a lost cause.
Merg you are not guilty, age 10!
Yes, concur. Photogs copy ideas off each other all the time.
Too bad not more oral history and photos from meeting Weston. That is the crime...not plagiarism.
When I photographed it for the above 8x10, the tree only went as high as the one thinner horizontal branch out to the left. Everything above was gone. Then I photographed it with only a couple feet of stump -- now all washed away. Such changes are good to see, such as long Prairie Creek in the redwoods over the last 4 decades.
When was that Vaughn? Just curious.
I didn't notice that the back limb was missing until it was mentioned.
Just kind of found it funny that I stood in almost the exact spot of Adams and didn't know it until later. I hadn't seen Adam's image before either.
When was that Vaughn? Just curious. I didn't notice that the back limb was missing until it was mentioned. Just kind of found it funny that I stood in almost the exact spot of Adams and didn't know it until later. I hadn't seen Adam's image before either.
The above image was made in 1994. Like you, it was years before I realized it was the same tree as AA's. By that time, the image was so totally mine in my mind. Same with the above image that is close to Sexton's image.
With the recent roadwork and the tree totally gone with the recent flooding, it is hard to know where it actually was when I visited the spot this past April.
AA has an image of this rock from a little further up the river -- before that section at the bottom broke off.
8x10 platinum/palladium print:
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