Dating a photograph - shutter speed clue?

[John_4185]

I have a scan of an early photograph. No negative, plate, or other information. I've put it online (below). What is curious to me is that the shutter speed was fast enough to stop action. I am hoping that netwisdom might have some clues regarding the technology of whatever time might have permitted a fast shutter speed. I am guessing it is 1/100th of a second, and a large format image... but I am only guessing.

Here it is: elearning.winona.edu/staff_o/jjs/dm/ (http://elearning.winona.edu/staff_o/jjs/dm/)

Interesting?

[Mark Sawyer]

As a former state historical society photographer/conservator, I'd put the process about 1895-1910, more for that style of postcard reproduction than the negative process, which could be about early 1880's or anywhere later. By 1888, Kodak was mass-marketing box cameras which could do "instant" exposures capable of stopping the action sufficient for your street scene.

You could probably get the most accurate date for this view by talking with power company people and dating the electrical poles, which were changing quickly in those years.

[Donald Qualls]

I'd agree with Mark on the dating. The sky is inserted, BTW, a common technique when blue-sensitive or ortho films tended to render a sky as blank white; that's why the power/phone lines don't continue through the sky area.

A 1/15 shutter should have stopped the little action there is in that scene; it's far enough from the camera and the (presumably) moving vehicles are headed straight toward the lens, only the woman's legs and skirt would be any kind of challenge. The man leaning on the carriage, middle left, isn't moving much if at all and from the image I can't be sure the woman is moving, either.

Shadows suggest midday with a mild overcast, what I'd call "hazy" conditions for Sunny 16 calculations, which could have been shot at f/11 and 1/15 on equivalent of an ISO 8 plate. DOF doesn't really suggest any smaller lens opening (sharpest focus looks like the far edge of the cross street, with the furthest buildings fairly blurry and nearest bricks in the street not quite sharp). This is well within the capability of gelatin dry plates from the 1880s, but the power/phone lines suggest 1890 or later (they were thicker than that, a lot thicker, by 1920, so before 1910 seems about right).

Pneumatic shutters from 1890 were capable of 1/50 shutter speed, in a few cases, and almost all shutters made after 1880 had an "instant" setting that was 1/10 or faster, so it's hard to place the date any more closely than "after phone lines started to proliferate, but before motorcars were much in evidence" -- which runs from about 1890 to 1910.

[Frank Petronio]

jj -- you should date humans, not photos.

[Steven Barall]

When I worked at the now defunct Archive Photos we had an expert on transportation and an expert on costumes and what's how we used to date old photos and that's what you need. The shutter speed thing is a red herring. Find someone who is an expert on costumes or since you are right there in Winona, look at old newspapers.

I think 1900 give or take is right on but I would lean toward earlier than later. I'm looking at a stereo card from NYC from 1896 and the transportation and dress looks the same. Dating old photos can be great fun, interesting and very educational.

[Jim Galli]

Lartigue was able to 'stop' a racing car (http://www.oswaldgallery.com/s.nl;jsessionid=ac112b1c1f4372a770377ba14a3f93a7b0b504ff2337.qQvJq2PEmlnva30S-BbQmkLz-ATzr6Lzn6rzqwTxpQOUc30KaNDNo6XKq6zInRmLa3mS8RbCpR0HoA5Qmh0Kc2TNo6XK-kDvrA4Ka3uIqRnvp6iIpAjOp6jynQjM-AbJpgaLax8RahmLc3iT8Oexo6XHngbynknvrkLOlQzNp65In0__?sc=2&category=37&it=A&id=1836) in 1912 with his focal plane graflex. 4.5 Tessar's would put ASA 10 film at 1/100 second around f5.6 or so in sunlight. I have a roller plane shutter for my '03 (that's 1903 folks) Eastman improved #2 5X7 that could have accomplished this photo 100 years ago.

[John Kasaian]

If you can make out any business names and addresses, you could check out old city directories for the years that you suspect to support your s*w*a*g.

If you can make a really big enlargement, you might be able to date the photo by looking at the horse's teeth ;-)

[Pat Kearns]

I second the city directories idea as John. If you don't have access to the city directories then research the street car lines for the city. Particularly electric street car lines in operation. The street car in the photo is electric because it is not drawn by horses and has the pole reaching into the air for an overhead power line. The power lines have been overpainted.

[John_4185]

You have all been very, very helpful. A directory is a must, got it, and the clues from the clothing is helpful, and the shape and type of power poles was a great surprise. The sky did look awfully clean for the era. Some other pictures coming in show more of the cabling.

If you like, I can dump a directory of the pictures to my web server. It's a strange collection of things from the 1970's to the 1800's. One set is of the time when the snow was so deep it burried a locomotive; it shows people standing on top of the snow bank.

Let me know if I should do that.

[Paul Fitzgerald]

Hi there,

jj, I think others are right about the shutter speed being a red herring:

the woman on the left is window shopping, not moving

the wagon on the left is stopped and loading

the trolley and wagon on the right are moving straight away and distant

have fun with the hunt.