PDA

View Full Version : Affordable 8x10: Any Other Game than Intrepid?



sperdynamite
18-Jun-2019, 19:26
I'm looking to get back into 8x10. I've owned Deardorffs in the past, and enjoyed them. This time though I'm on a bit more of a budget. Is there any other realistic choice than Intrepid? The Mark II looks to be pretty decent. Every other choice seems like it would be in the $2k range...

Luis-F-S
18-Jun-2019, 19:32
I own 6 Deardorffs. Unfortunately, you get what you pay for. If you buy it right, you can usually sell it for what you paid for it. That won't happen with the Mark II. Also currious as to why the OP is fixated on a 14" lens. This ain't 35mm..........

Jim Galli
18-Jun-2019, 20:12
An old Kodak 2D that wouldn't fetch $650 has filled my web pages . . mostly. Maybe 80%. But my 4X5 is a Chamonix, and I like it a lot also.

Vaughn
18-Jun-2019, 20:20
Another vote for the 2D as a starter 8x10.

Two23
18-Jun-2019, 20:47
My philosophy is to buy quality used gear as I can generally resell for what I paid for it.


Kent in SD

Peter De Smidt
18-Jun-2019, 21:25
Field camera? Monorail? Occasionally, I see a Horseman, Toyo, Cambo, Calumet or other quality brand monorails for little money. Agfa/Ansco or Kodak D2 for wooden cameras.

Charles S
18-Jun-2019, 22:04
Gibellini makes an 8x10 camera with some 3D printed parts for 750 Eur. I have one and am happy with it.
https://www.gibellinicamera.com/product/bellatrix-810/

sperdynamite
19-Jun-2019, 05:03
Gibellini makes an 8x10 camera with some 3D printed parts for 750 Eur. I have one and am happy with it.
https://www.gibellinicamera.com/product/bellatrix-810/

Whoa I was not aware of this one! Do you think it could handle a lens as heavy as a 14" Commercial Ektar? Care to expand your comments on it?

Bernice Loui
19-Jun-2019, 06:25
Toyo 810M.

IMO, trying to "save $" on a camera is penny wise, pound foolish.


Bernice

Charles S
19-Jun-2019, 06:42
I use it mainly for portraits in a studio and mostly with Fujinon W 250, which is small and light. I can't leave the camera in the studio so I need something that fits in a backpack. Before I had a Plaubel rail camera from the 50s which was near impossible to transport, and I had an old Kodak 2D like camera that I used a little bit before it fell a apart. There is some limitation with the movements of the rear standard compared to the Plaubel, but I don't miss it.

Don't know about your lens, but I have used it with a Symmar S 300mm which is a heavy beast in a copal 3 shutter before switching to the Fooj. You can probably find the weight of it somewhere and compare it to yours.
The bottom part is steel (I suppose like the new Intrepid), the 3d printed parts are mainly the film holder and the front bit that holds the Sinar lensboard. It seemed sturdy enough.

I got a budget camera because I wasn't sure how often I would shoot with it and whether it would stick. I later got a 4x5 for location shoots as well, but once you are used to a 8x10, everything smaller feel toy-like. Also the cost of Foma 100 in both sizes is not so different. So the 8x10 stuck. For the amount of money I thought the risk of being disappointed was low, but I don't think it is strong and iconic enough that I will be handing this camera to my grandkids. Over the long run, the cost is in the film and the lenses, so I might upgrade at some point.

Lastly, the owner of the business is quite responsive, so I wouldn't hesitate to ask him.

John Kasaian
19-Jun-2019, 07:35
I'd look for a Kodak D2, B&J, Agfa/Ansco Universal or Century. Any used camera at the low end of the price spectrum will likely require some work, probably patching bellows, but this can usually be accomplished without too much angst.

G Benaim
19-Jun-2019, 08:07
There's also stenopeika who make an affordable model I was looking at recently. Haven't seen or used it but looked promising for the money, around 900 bucks.

Alan Gales
19-Jun-2019, 09:11
There is the metal Calumet C1 if you don't mind weight. It is rear focus only which works great for portraits but the bed gets in the way when shooting wide lenses. There are compromises with any camera but when you go cheap there seems to be more compromises.

Fred L
19-Jun-2019, 11:22
I think if you've used Deardorffs before, the Intrepid, with all due respect, is not going to be anywhere near the same user experience. As Bernice basically said, pay now, or pay later. I'm not entirely convinced an Intrepid is a camera that will grow on, or with you. I say this as a KS backer and owner of v1.0, who also owns a Zone VI 8x10.

Peter De Smidt
19-Jun-2019, 11:26
Gibellini makes an 8x10 camera with some 3D printed parts for 750 Eur. I have one and am happy with it.
https://www.gibellinicamera.com/product/bellatrix-810/

I only have a little experience with 3d printing. In your experience, are the plastic parts stable, i.e. resistant to warping and moisture damage?

Charles S
19-Jun-2019, 12:47
I only have a little experience with 3d printing. In your experience, are the plastic parts stable, i.e. resistant to warping and moisture damage?

I have had since it X-mas so hard to say how durable it will be. I am using it in a studio, so moisture should not be a factor. Maybe the attached pic helps; the white parts are plastic, all the black stuff is metal. I don't see a big risk of warping (unlike the 3D printed 4x5). I'm no 8x10 engineering expert, but it seems to me that the parts that carry most of the load are made out of metal. If you shoot at a weird angle, with the bellows fully extended and a heavy lens on it, I am sure you will notice the difference with a rail camera.

Like previous posters said, you get what you pay for and every camera has it's constraints. For the price, I don't expect it to last a life time, and neither does my DSLR. If I get 5 years of regular use out of it, I will be so much more experienced and can then decide whether I want to invest more. Until that time, my money goes into film and chems.

In terms of buying older, used cameras, I bought a Plaubel from the 50s off eBay for 200 Eur. It had a bellows that needed to be taped, a cracked screen, a warped front standard and it reeked of cigars. The movements are more precise, the rail makes it sturdier, but since it needed to be transported in a large wooden box, I couldn't be bothered to take it with me and it stayed in the basement. I used it maybe 10 times over the course of 3 years. I spent more on the lens, the film and development tools than on the camera, so it was money wasted. The Gib works for me because of the portability and because I could afford it.


192562

robbiemcclaran
19-Jun-2019, 12:58
Svedovsky? Sure looks the business.

Jac@stafford.net
19-Jun-2019, 13:12
Another vote for the 2D as a starter 8x10.

Or its equivalents such as a Century 1. Super light, a real field camera over 100 years-old and still strong.

Jac@stafford.net
19-Jun-2019, 13:21
Whoa I was not aware of this one! Do you think it could handle a lens as heavy as a 14" Commercial Ektar? Care to expand your comments on it?

A 14" Ektar is not a monster, but a lens well within the size and weight of ordinary lenses for 8x10.

Drew Wiley
19-Jun-2019, 16:12
... "ordinary"and well within the size and weight when mastodons still roamed the earth and rented themselves out to help you carry your gear. There are plenty of lightwt lenses in that focal length to choose from that are optically superb. Same could be said for 8x10 cameras. Just because there are now lighter wt options does not mean they're lesser cameras. Just depends.

robertraymer
19-Jun-2019, 16:52
When I was buying my 8x10 I was also looking for an "affordable" camera, not wanting to break the bank on a format I was just starting in, and knowing that I would be using it for portraits on wet plate as well as film. I settled on an old Burke and James Commercial View 8x10 and it has been everything I have needed. While not expensive, it is by no means cheap, but rather a well made workhorse that has lasted decades with no issues. It is not the easiest camera to use, it does not have geared rise/fall and fine focusing can be a bit tricky and time consuming at times, and it doesn't have the range of movements that more expensive cameras have, no is it as light, but it is more than adequate for my work and my needs, and I have had no problem with even the heaviest lenses I own, with the limiting factor in that regard being the lens board size (not exactly small at 6x6) rather than ability to hold the weight.

On another note, someone mentioned Stenopieka, and while I have not used their cameras, I am impressed with the cost and quality of their 8x10 plate holder, so it may be worth looking into.

Alan Gales
20-Jun-2019, 07:56
... "ordinary"and well within the size and weight when mastodons still roamed the earth and rented themselves out to help you carry your gear. There are plenty of lightwt lenses in that focal length to choose from that are optically superb. Same could be said for 8x10 cameras. Just because there are now lighter wt options does not mean they're lesser cameras. Just depends.

I remember Stone buying all those lightweight Fuji lenses for his Chamonix. Great lenses but on the pricey side for someone looking for an affordable 8x10 outfit.

Drew Wiley
20-Jun-2019, 10:15
Timing is everything when it comes to used pricing. I'd saw only about four clean 360 A lenses come up for sale over a ten year period, all somewhat expensive. I ended up with two of them, but later sold one off. Then all of a sudden eleven turned up for sale in a single year, with one of them selling for just $600. After that, I've aware of only two more coming up, including a beat up one for $1400.

sperdynamite
20-Jun-2019, 10:47
The folks at Gibellini are making me a quote for a Bellatrix, thanks everyone!

Audii-Dudii
20-Jun-2019, 11:18
Timing is everything when it comes to used pricing.

Indeed, it is!

As one data point, back in the late 1990s / early 2000s (I forget exactly when), I bought a used (admittedly somewhat scruffy but mechanically sound) Toyo 810G outfit, complete with a standard and bag bellows, a recessed lens board, two flat lens boards, and an adapter so it could also use the smaller lensboards from Toyo's field cameras, for just $400.

It was up for auction on eBay and I was the only bidder, because back then, a bulky, heavy, monorail 8x10 view camera was about as desirable as a dumptruck load of nuclear waste.

Today, all these years later, I'll bet I can still sell it for more than the inflation-adjusted $400 I paid and possibly even eek a small profit out of the deal, too! :)

Drew Bedo
24-Jun-2019, 05:41
Do not overlook the old Burk and James cameras as a budget camera. They are a bit clunky and were never considered to be high-end when new . . .but if it is in good shape, it will do naything you want to do in LF imaging.

As do many on this thread, I too have a 2D in 8x10 and like it while wishing I could afford a Deardorff or a newer premium grade LF camera.

My 4x5 outfit centers around a nice Zone VI. As observed by others, this quality camera has held its value since AI got it in the late 1990s.

vdonovan
24-Jun-2019, 06:07
Svedovsky? Sure looks the business.

I've got one. Love it.

sperdynamite
10-Aug-2019, 08:26
Update:

I received my Bellatrix! I ordered an all black model and 2 film holders from Gibellini.

My first impressions are quite positive. It's definitely an ultra light, but doesn't feel cheap. The base, rails, and most of the knobs area all metal. Only the actual standards front and rear are 3D printed plastics (or whatever composite they use). I'm sure higher end cameras are a fair bit more rock solid, but for my purposes this will do nicely. The movements are already exceeding my needs, and the controls are easy to access under a dark cloth by feel. The bellows feel high quality too, nice and supple, with good rigidity!

You can see the areas where they cut corners to bring the cost down, such as the ground glass. It's not a modern ultra bright, but a fairly grainy glass, like I used to have in my college Deardorff. Who can say how the parts will hold up over the years and years? Frankly, if I do a magnificent portfolio on 8x10, I may say that it's time to invest in a more expensive model. However it's really nice to see models that can get your feet in the door for considerably less than the cost of a prosumer full frame digital camera. I will say that it's striking to lose that full rear extension that I got with my V8. On the other hand, I did close up work with that maybe a handful of times. I doubt it will be a big loss in practice. It was a nice to have, as opposed to a need to have at the moment.

Right now I have my 300/6.3 Komura tessar on her, and I can't wait to shoot something with it. I also received my Poilot tank and 8x10 reel. I'm hoping to run a test in the next few days, as I'm been practicing loading with some junk film. Not as difficult as I had heard. I have an Expert Drum for 8x10, but no CPxx that can run it. I will be investing in a CPP3 in the Fall, which will be great to have in my lab as I own Northeast Photographic (not sure if people knew that). We do all our B&W and E6 in a Phototherm SSK8r, but the Jobos seem to be better for sheet film in my estimation. And for certain special processes that I'll use personally.

I'm still looking for a Fuji 250/6.7 by the way. Or some good wide that I can use for a landscape project I have floating around my head. Not sure I can do better than the Fuji though, for the price and performance.

Peter De Smidt
10-Aug-2019, 08:33
I look forward to hearing how it works out for you.

Charles S
10-Aug-2019, 08:49
Update:

I received my Bellatrix! I ordered an all black model and 2 film holders from Gibellini.

My first impressions are quite positive. It's definitely an ultra light, but doesn't feel cheap. The base, rails, and most of the knobs area all metal. Only the actual standards front and rear are 3D printed plastics (or whatever composite they use). I'm sure higher end cameras are a fair bit more rock solid, but for my purposes this will do nicely. The movements are already exceeding my needs, and the controls are easy to access under a dark cloth by feel. The bellows feel high quality too, nice and supple, with good rigidity!

You can see the areas where they cut corners to bring the cost down, such as the ground glass. It's not a modern ultra bright, but a fairly grainy glass, like I used to have in my college Deardorff. Who can say how the parts will hold up over the years and years? Frankly, if I do a magnificent portfolio on 8x10, I may say that it's time to invest in a more expensive model. However it's really nice to see models that can get your feet in the door for considerably less than the cost of a prosumer full frame digital camera. I will say that it's striking to lose that full rear extension that I got with my V8. On the other hand, I did close up work with that maybe a handful of times. I doubt it will be a big loss in practice. It was a nice to have, as opposed to a need to have at the moment.

Right now I have my 300/6.3 Komura tessar on her, and I can't wait to shoot something with it. I also received my Poilot tank and 8x10 reel. I'm hoping to run a test in the next few days, as I'm been practicing loading with some junk film. Not as difficult as I had heard. I have an Expert Drum for 8x10, but no CPxx that can run it. I will be investing in a CPP3 in the Fall, which will be great to have in my lab as I own Northeast Photographic (not sure if people knew that). We do all our B&W and E6 in a Phototherm SSK8r, but the Jobos seem to be better for sheet film in my estimation. And for certain special processes that I'll use personally.

I'm still looking for a Fuji 250/6.7 by the way. Or some good wide that I can use for a landscape project I have floating around my head. Not sure I can do better than the Fuji though, for the price and performance.

Congrats on your purchase. I am glad it works for you. I had the same reaction when I got mine. Gibellini has just announced a Fresnel GG option that supposedly can be retrofitted. I am going to check it out.
194199

sperdynamite
23-May-2020, 09:12
Update to my Bellatrix purchase and a bit of a rant. Things have not been rosy with this camera. I think most of the issues stem from the spring back...but I'm not sure.

First I went for two of their film holders, because I wanted to have a light leak free experience. Well let me tell you that didn't work out. I had leaks from the felt from day one. I wasn't sure if it was the felt or the back...but Gibellini took the camera and holders back and replaced the felts. I won't comment on the shipping time because that can't be helped, but getting this stuff from Maine to Italy is not super fast.

So they also sold me 3 more holders which they promised would be perfect (and they seem to be). But the leaks with the first two holders were still there! Now I think it may be from the spring back, which is a kind of funky mechanism, more on that later. It's mostly 3D printed. So they promised to exchange the 2 bad holders with brand new ones and that's that. Covid put the brakes on it since it was so bad in Italy, but we're back in business now. Just before packing up the 2 holders for exchange I bought some older but lightly used Fidelity holders to try. Wouldn't you know it they BARELY fit into the back. It's a big fight to get them in and out. No way the rear standard would stay in position while trying to do it. Completely ridiculous! Fidelities are like the standard holder.

So now the spring back, the 2 holders, and a reference Fidelity holder are all going back to Italy. I don't feel like I've had a usable camera since day 1 of owning it. There have been times I've made clean sheets, but I can't trust that this will happen every time. With film being SO expensive, I'm pretty pissed. I have purchased a lot of things around the camera to get going including a tripod, lenses, frozen film, etc, only to not be able to shoot 8x10. The camera design is actually really nice, I like using it. But I can't 'trust' it.

I will update this thread again based on what happens. Their communication has been very good. But they keep basically claiming that this is so crazy, never happens, etc... Someone else emailed me once to say they had problems with their back too so I think it's safe to say there are problems with the design. No idea how their most expensive cameras are, but the Bellatrix needs work IMHO.

Ari
23-May-2020, 09:25
I had the same experience with Alessandro and the ACN810.
Light leaks owing to the design of the back. So it went back to Italy, and took over two months to get back to me.
I had asked before purchase if the camera worked with Toyo holders, since those are all I have. I was told "Yes, of course!".
"Of course" actually meant "No way", so back the camera went again, this time with a Toyo holder.
Three months later I got it back. I'm pretty sure any work done happened a few days before they shipped it back to me. It likely sat there for a while.
I had to call umpteen times for updates.
By the time I got everything back, it all worked, and the camera was nice to use. But I was so fed up with the ordeal that I sold the camera soon after.
I have a 95 year-old Kodak 2D for now, it doesn't have any problems beyond age-related maintenance/repairs.

sperdynamite
23-May-2020, 09:30
I had the same experience with Alessandro and the ACN810.
Light leaks owing to the design of the back. So it went back to Italy, and took over two months to get back to me.
I had asked before purchase if the camera worked with Toyo holders, since those are all I have. I was told "Yes, of course!".
"Of course" actually meant "No way", so back the camera went again, this time with a Toyo holder.
Three months later I got it back. I'm pretty sure any work done happened a few days before they shipped it back to me. It likely sat there for a while.
I had to call umpteen times for updates.
By the time I got everything back, it all worked, and the camera was nice to use. But I was so fed up with the ordeal that I sold the camera soon after.
I have a 95 year-old Kodak 2D for now, it doesn't have any problems beyond age-related maintenance/repairs.


I'm currently looking at Stenopeikas and Chamonix 810Vs. Lots more money but hey if it means the cameras actually WORK then I guess I get what I pay for.

peter schrager
23-May-2020, 09:45
I'm currently looking at Stenopeikas and Chamonix 810Vs. Lots more money but hey if it means the cameras actually WORK then I guess I get what I pay for.
Keep sending your stuff back to Italy when you have Richard Ritter right down the road who makes one of the BESt 8x10 cameras
It's funny because Richard actually makes a good living from all the crappo cameras like Wisner for many years repairing them....
I don't know about Chamonix but are you going to send the camera back to China? probably not; you're going to call Richard
I like to take pictures so for me I like to get the "equipment" issue out of the way...

sperdynamite
23-May-2020, 10:04
Keep sending your stuff back to Italy when you have Richard Ritter right down the road who makes one of the BESt 8x10 cameras
It's funny because Richard actually makes a good living from all the crappo cameras like Wisner for many years repairing them....
I don't know about Chamonix but are you going to send the camera back to China? probably not; you're going to call Richard
I like to take pictures so for me I like to get the "equipment" issue out of the way...

Forgive my ignorance but I had never heard of Richard Ritter... very interesting. Definitely a good alternative to a Chamonix price point.

Though I will say a Chamonix wouldn’t have to go back to the factory. The 45N2 I had and my current 57N are just superb cameras.

Two23
23-May-2020, 10:07
I'm currently looking at Stenopeikas and Chamonix 810Vs. Lots more money but hey if it means the cameras actually WORK then I guess I get what I pay for.


As a recent buyer of a Stenopeika 8x10 wet plate holder and a 5x7 Chamonix 5x7 holder (plus 4x5 Chamonix 045n) I suggest you go with the Chamonix. For 8x10 I'm using a restored Kodak 2D. Limited movements but it's very nice.


Kent in SD

Luis-F-S
23-May-2020, 10:16
Did you try a google search for Richard? He’s also on this forum

Luis-F-S
23-May-2020, 10:18
Keep sending your stuff back to Italy when you have Richard Ritter right down the road who makes one of the BESt 8x10 cameras
It's funny because Richard actually makes a good living from all the crappo cameras like Wisner for many years repairing them....

Some people want to re-invent the wheel.

peter schrager
23-May-2020, 10:18
one alternative if you can find one on the bay is a wooden deardorff knockoff from India....I have one and it works just fine

sperdynamite
23-May-2020, 10:32
Did you try a google search for Richard? He’s also on this forum

I just checked out his site. I am into this system now so I think I need to resolve my issue with the Bellatrix before I can find a replacement, but based on the price, his geographic location, and what I’m reading it looks like something I would seriously consider.

John Kasaian
23-May-2020, 10:55
I just checked out his site. I am into this system now so I think I need to resolve my issue with the Bellatrix before I can find a replacement, but based on the price, his geographic location, and what I’m reading it looks like something I would seriously consider.

Totally unsolicited here, but Richard has worked on one of my cameras---he did a fine job at a fair price. I couldn't ask for better!

Corran
23-May-2020, 12:32
Prices are going up, but I've told numerous folks that Wehman 8x10 cameras are the hidden jewel of the 8x10 field cameras out there...

Simple design, packed full of features, and robust. It's a camera designed to make photos, not look pretty, but as long as you're cool with that, it's tops.

Price is less than other premium 8x10 cameras but still a lot more than the low-cost ones being discussed...but since it'll be second-hand and tested you'll be fairly confident it works.

RIP Bruce, I only wish the parts for the camera went somewhere after his death. He kindly sent me a replacement part when I broke my camera slipping down a hill and slamming it into the ground the first time I used it, but it's all basically off-the-shelf parts I think from McMaster Carr and similar.

Daniel Casper Lohenstein
23-May-2020, 13:04
http://camera-wiki.org/wiki/Woodyman_8x10 woody man 8x10. Seems to be better than Intrepids. https://woodymanproject.com/

interneg
23-May-2020, 13:10
The best engineered 8x10 I've seen is the one built by Mike Walker (stainless steel and machined engineering plastics) - the problem with so many 8x10's is the obsessive focus on weight over stability while retaining a good maximum extension. I have to admit to being increasingly tempted to either re-engineer a 2D front half into a non-folding lightweight camera (or one of the several models along similar lines) or use the 8x10 back I have kicking around and make a simple, moderately light but sturdy camera with no tilts & a shorter max extension (380-400mm is fine).

Daniel Unkefer
23-May-2020, 14:43
For under a thousand you could find a decent 8x10 Sinar Norma. I was working on mine today (it's been in storage in the basement) but it is oh-so cool. And infinitely expandable. And I doubt you could break it.

Robert Opheim
23-May-2020, 15:30
I use a Calumet C-1. two or three pounds more that a Deardorf. The camera doesn't more around like an old wood camera - I started with an old wood camera similar to a 2-D. The Calumet has a really long bellows and rail. As Alan said if you are shooting a wide angle the bed/rail gets in the way. There is also no bag bellows for it.

Robert Opheim
23-May-2020, 15:32
I use a Calumet C-1. two or three pounds more that a Deardorf. The camera doesn't more around like an old wood camera - I started with an old wood camera similar to a 2-D. The Calumet has a really long bellows and rail. As Alan said if you are shooting a wide angle the bed/rail gets in the way. There is also no bag bellows for it. Also I broke the front standard of my old wood camera with a 12 inch Velostigmat #2 in a #5 shutter - no problem of large lenses on the Calumet.

dodphotography
23-May-2020, 16:59
The best engineered 8x10 I've seen is the one built by Mike Walker (stainless steel and machined engineering plastics) - the problem with so many 8x10's is the obsessive focus on weight over stability while retaining a good maximum extension. I have to admit to being increasingly tempted to either re-engineer a 2D front half into a non-folding lightweight camera (or one of the several models along similar lines) or use the 8x10 back I have kicking around and make a simple, moderately light but sturdy camera with no tilts & a shorter max extension (380-400mm is fine).

The Walker 810 is an elusive machine.. Iíve never seen or heard of anyone using one.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

John Kasaian
23-May-2020, 16:59
I don't know what they bring these days, but for less than a 'dorff there are plenty of good old cameras out there.
Ansel emphatically preferred the Agfa Ansco to the ' dorff.
Weston wrote of his admiration for a Century Universal (lighter than the 'dorff) and nearly every old time 8x10 shooter used a Kodak at one time or another.
Patching the bellows, a wee bit of TLC and maybe a some Elmer's and you too can join the club!

dodphotography
23-May-2020, 17:06
Iíd say keep your eyes peeled for a Kodak Master View (KMV for short).

Incredibly simple, yet rugged, camera. Does many things well and my only complaint is the fact that rise / fall and axis tilt are locked with one knob on the front standard. Otherwise, theyíre nice.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

interneg
23-May-2020, 17:32
The Walker 810 is an elusive machine.. I’ve never seen or heard of anyone using one.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

They're not totally uncommon over here - but they tend to attract a clientele who use their cameras rather than talk about them...

Bernice Loui
23-May-2020, 17:37
8x10 sheet film was never intended to be an "Affordable" film size format. While there are plenty of low cost 8x10 view cameras available today, camera is only one tiny bit of the whole of 8x10 sheet film photography experience. A few hundred U$D can easily purchase a good used 8x10 camera. With camera in hand, comes the cost of lenses, film holders and all that, likely the most costly aspect of 8x10 sheet film image making.. Film.

Processing and print making. Yes, scanners have made the connection between 8x10 sheet film to digital based prints viable and lower cost, that does not negate the cost of 8x10 sheet film and what is involved with properly processing 8x10 sheet film.

All that said, IMO all who have done any sheet film for any amount of time should try 8x10 even if only once. It is a very worth while experience in many ways. This is also IMO, the only way to know if 8x10 sheet film format works for you.


Bernice

NHE
23-May-2020, 17:42
While maybe a little out of you price range, but I havenít seen anyone mention the Canham JMC810(the all metal one). Itís not the most rigid camera especially with longer extensions nor the smoothest. However, it just seems to work Iíve never had an exposure ruined that wasnít my fault and it does damp vibrations well.
It does pretty much everything I could ask from an ultralight 8x10 not to mention the ground glass is excellent even with slower lenses. There were some design compromises to save weight but it works well once you get used to it.

Scyg
23-May-2020, 18:18
My Agfa Ansco (https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?157934-Restoring-my-quot-new-quot-Agfa-Ansco-8x10) cost me $200 on the bay. So far I've put in about 50 hours of work into restoring it, and probably will put in another 20-30 before I'm done. I've had to buy a new heat gun and finishes at around $50 total, so not bad if you don't count the labor. I also have to mention that I decided to jump into an 8x10 only because I already happened to have a lens that will cover the format (a vintage job that came with my 5x7, which I've had for a quarter of a century, so I don't count it as a cost), film holders and a decent stock of film I bought for another project, so the total outlays at this time were minimal.
I've seen old cameras that probably wouldn't take much to bring up to a user standard sell for $400-600 or so. Not often, but you do see them.

Charles S
23-May-2020, 21:14
Gibellini
https://www.gibellinicamera.com/product/bellatrix-810/

Daniel Unkefer
23-May-2020, 21:29
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48575543432_a0e3933570_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2h1smHw)8x10 Norma 480 Apo Ronar (https://flic.kr/p/2h1smHw) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

My 8x10 Sinar Norma with 480mm Apo Ronar and Sinar Shutter with cables

sperdynamite
24-May-2020, 17:05
Gibellini
https://www.gibellinicamera.com/product/bellatrix-810/

I’m not sure you’ve been paying attention...

Louis Pacilla
24-May-2020, 18:44
Iím not sure youíve been paying attention...

Thought the same thing;)

sperdynamite
5-Jun-2020, 07:12
Hugo made me an offer I could not refuse.

Chamonix 810V on the way to me now. I of course should have just gone this way to start with. The old adage 'too poor to buy cheap' is true in my experience. Given my experience with the 57N and a 45N2 I used to own, I know I will be happy with this camera and that it will be a rock solid performer.

The Gibellini I think was cursed by a woods-witch at some point. After discovering that Fidelity holders don't fit, I packed up the spring back and the two holders they're replacing for a trip to Italy. This was a couple weeks ago, it should be there by now, but it's in tracking hell, somewhere in the midwest. It went to OH, then KY, then back to OH, now it's been 'in transit to next facitily' for 3 or 4 days. IF I get it back, I will promptly be selling it.

Hopefully this thread lives on and helps some people. NEVER buy Gibellini.

Peter De Smidt
5-Jun-2020, 08:27
I'd be careful now shipping anything really important. I've never had shipping problems until the last couple of weeks. Fed Ex delivered a package of film to a house 40 miles away. UPS was supposed to deliver a package the next day, and their site listed it as being in Wisconsin, but the next day it took a trip to California. The pandemic and social unrest have likely put extreme pressure on shipping companies.

John Kasaian
5-Jun-2020, 08:46
It's not the horse.
It's feeding the horse. LOL!

Willie
5-Jun-2020, 11:17
https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?158471-FS-B-amp-J-8x10-Grover-with-some-modifications

Right here on these forums in the Classifieds. Might solve your problem.

cp_photo
5-Jun-2020, 12:48
I'd be really interested to hear first hand reports of the Argentum Camera 8x10 models from Hungary. There don't seem to be that many of them out there in the wild.

sperdynamite
5-Jun-2020, 13:19
I'd be really interested to hear first hand reports of the Argentum Camera 8x10 models from Hungary. There don't seem to be that many of them out there in the wild.

They look beautiful, nice prices. I wonder what an 11x14 would set me back? :-)

Ari
5-Jun-2020, 21:17
Hugo made me an offer I could not refuse.

Chamonix 810V on the way to me now. I of course should have just gone this way to start with. The old adage 'too poor to buy cheap' is true in my experience. Given my experience with the 57N and a 45N2 I used to own, I know I will be happy with this camera and that it will be a rock solid performer.

The Gibellini I think was cursed by a woods-witch at some point. After discovering that Fidelity holders don't fit, I packed up the spring back and the two holders they're replacing for a trip to Italy. This was a couple weeks ago, it should be there by now, but it's in tracking hell, somewhere in the midwest. It went to OH, then KY, then back to OH, now it's been 'in transit to next facitily' for 3 or 4 days. IF I get it back, I will promptly be selling it.

Hopefully this thread lives on and helps some people. NEVER buy Gibellini.

Sorry you had to go through that. I'd have hoped my own thread from 3-4 years ago might have helped someone but it got buried after some time.
I wanted to like the Gibellini, but the basic stuff, like light leaks and lens board compatibility, was poorly addressed in the design.
It was only made worse by the nonchalance of the owner and staff. I don't think any of them are photographers, more likely industrial designers.

Like you, by the end I was just fed up.
I'd had to send in a brand-new camera for repair twice, they took their sweet time getting it back to me each time, and brushed away any concerns I had about design flaws that were causing the problems.
When it finally all worked, I just didn't care anymore. I wanted to forget the whole episode, and sold the camera at a loss.

I think you've made an excellent choice with the Chamonix, Hugo is a good guy and your experience with him has probably been the polar opposite of that with Alessandro Gibellini.

interneg
6-Jun-2020, 04:43
I'd be really interested to hear first hand reports of the Argentum Camera 8x10 models from Hungary. There don't seem to be that many of them out there in the wild.

From what I've been able to track down, they seem pretty solid and simple, made with decent quality parts. Built for use, not display.


They look beautiful, nice prices. I wonder what an 11x14 would set me back? :-)

I recall there's about a year or so wait - I had enquired about a non-folding 8x10 with a short max extension & no tilts/ swings.

Pops
6-Jun-2020, 04:52
Gibellini makes an 8x10 camera with some 3D printed parts for 750 Eur. I have one and am happy with it.
https://www.gibellinicamera.com/product/bellatrix-810/

It looks nice, but no revolving back, correct? Also the price is now 990 euro.

Tin Can
6-Jun-2020, 05:20
This bears repeating, USA shipping is a mess right now. Don't ship in or out for a while.

Took an Express Mail package $40 to go from one end of Illinois to the other, 14 days! And it was ripped open, but contents intact.

Tracking became invisible, signature required disappeared. I was the recipient, I did NOT want that feature, shipper did, he won't do it again.

This morning I requested 7 refunds from Amazon for 'lost' packages, they recommended the action which I delayed for 8 days.

There are a variety of forces at work.

Politics are banned here, for a good reason.


I'd be careful now shipping anything really important. I've never had shipping problems until the last couple of weeks. Fed Ex delivered a package of film to a house 40 miles away. UPS was supposed to deliver a package the next day, and their site listed it as being in Wisconsin, but the next day it took a trip to California. The pandemic and social unrest have likely put extreme pressure on shipping companies.

tigger_six
6-Jun-2020, 05:32
What are the particular reasons for why Intrepid isn't a good choice for a budget 8x10? Is it not solid enough or is it mechanically flimsy?

sperdynamite
6-Jun-2020, 06:30
What are the particular reasons for why Intrepid isn't a good choice for a budget 8x10? Is it not solid enough or is it mechanically flimsy?

Honestly the Mark II may have been a good choice, I haven't had a chance to try it. I thought I was buying a sort of upgrade to the Intrepid with the Gibellini, but clearly their cameras are not ready for prime time. There was stuff I knew would annoy be about the Mk I 8x10, like the elastic straps holding the back on, but I think some of these things have now been addressed?

It should also be said that at the time I was going to buy the Intrepid, I figured I would do a small amount of direct positive shooting, and some contact printing. Now many months later, my ability to scan 8x10 film has gotten significantly more advanced. I'm hoping within the next year or so to pick up an 8x10 capable enlarger too, so I'm just generally taking the format (and 5x7) more seriously. So that's why it makes more sense for me to spend a little bit more on a camera.

Charles S
6-Jun-2020, 08:19
It looks nice, but no revolving back, correct? Also the price is now 990 euro.

Movement on the back is limited to tilt. I use it for portraits so that is enough movement for me. Bought it used.

sperdynamite
11-Jun-2020, 14:38
I got my Chamonix 810V! First, wow what a difference. This thing is an image making machine. It even smells great. I have no doubt that my large plasmats will sit securely on here. I LOVE the swing back design with the handle. It accepts the film holder so smoothly!

But the Gibellini Curse continues.

So, thinking I was avoiding issues with light leaks from used film holders (ha HA ha HA ha HA) I have purchased 5 Gibellini FH810s. I know, I know, but I like to be confident in my equipment when shooting ultra expensive film. Well it makes sense that my Fidelity equipment does not fit in the Bellatrix. The FH810s don't fit in the Chamonix! They sit slightly loosely, and the little lip does not go into the female slot, which would hold the FH in place when removing the darkslide.

Like my backless Bellatrix, the FH810s are completely useless to me now. This is hundreds of dollars in film holders. I don't even know what to do at this point. I mean, I could ask Gibellini for a refund on returned equipment, but we all know the response back I am likely to get. Also (in theory) my equipment is on my way back to them so I'd like to not burn the bridge before they (in theory) fix it and return it to me.

I feel like a real dupe. I might as well have just lit a pile of cash on fire.

Ari
11-Jun-2020, 14:52
I feel like a real dupe. I might as well have just lit a pile of cash on fire.

Yup, been there too.
And Gibellini is a vast, confusing mess: cameras and holders. For some reason, they seem to be popular in Europe, so you could sell your holders to someone there.
I bought Toyo holders a long time ago, and have stuck with them. If the camera doesn't accept them, the camera goes. They're worth the extra money.
Turn the page, and keep going.

sperdynamite
11-Jun-2020, 15:12
I have asked Alesandro for a refund, I think I know how this is going to go, but it's worth a try. When that fails as I'm sure it will, I will work with AMEX for my money back. Who knows? Maybe someone will have my back here.

Daniel Casper Lohenstein
12-Jun-2020, 00:01
Yup, been there too.
And Gibellini is a vast, confusing mess: cameras and holders. For some reason, they seem to be popular in Europe, so you could sell your holders to someone there.


Hi, they're not popular at all in Europe. European buyers don't want to get false holders.

I think that in forums like ours we have to be much more rigid about poor quality. We have to exchange experiences relentlessly. I already thought that when I bought an Intrepid camera. I don't like this beta-testing philosophy. Something will change? Only through honest discussion and voting with our feet and our wallets. Be it that the companies go bankrupt, be it that their stuff is no longer sold and better replaces the bad.

Peter De Smidt
12-Jun-2020, 07:30
Changing topics, I used my Intrepid 810 Mk II yesterday. I'm going to have to add something under the front standard to keep it from inadvertently moving, the mounting plate is too thin to hold the mounting bolt securely with a Really Right Stuff Arca plate. I'll have to think of something. The ground glass is pretty dim. I might try grinding it a bit with some aluminum oxide, or maybe I should just make a whole new screen. Finally, the spring arrangement on the back is terrible. It's very easy for them to slide off the ground glass frame. What all of this means is that it's very hard to just focus on finding a good composition. Little niggles are regularly pulling my attention back to annoying mechanics. Alas, I had to close my studio down, and so my workshop is filled with photo gear. Otherwise, I'd finish my 5x7 back for the camera, which'll use a Deardorff back as the main part. I have a couple of low-end 8x10s right now. I should've just bit the bullet and bought a Chamonix or Wehman. I suppose I should make a new 8x10 back, but then my free time will be spent building instead of photographing.

Bernice Loui
12-Jun-2020, 08:00
Of all the foldable 8x10 cameras owned-used over the decades, best of them all is the Toyo 810M with a Sinar front frame. Sinar frame allowed using a Sinar shutter between the front standard and bellows. This modification allows using a very long list of barrel lenses on what is IMO, the best foldable 8x10 camera made. The objection to an Toyo 810M could be weight, then again anyone doing 8x10 should accept the reality and fact 8x10 will never be a lightweight film format. Once away from a foldable, it is back to a Sinar Norma be it 4x5, 5x7 or 8x10.

Having been around low cost poorly designed, poorly constructed cameras over the decades, the more one expects from a camera, the more difficult it becomes to tolerate the niggling hassles with a lesser camera. Will the lesser camera make images, absolutely yes. Difference being a truly GOOD design, precise, and nicely made camera is very nice to use and gets in the way less when specific demands are placed on the camera during the image making process. Personally, tolerance for a poorly made and inadequate view camera is about zero. The goal is image making _ print making not futzing with a view camera that cannot do what is asked of it.


Bernice



Changing topics, I used my Intrepid 810 Mk II yesterday. I'm going to have to add something under the front standard to keep it from inadvertently moving, the mounting plate is too thin to hold the mounting bolt securely with a Really Right Stuff Arca plate. I'll have to think of something. The ground glass is pretty dim.

I should've just bit the bullet and bought a Chamonix or Wehman. I suppose I should make a new 8x10 back, but then my free time will be spent building instead of photographing.

Daniel Unkefer
12-Jun-2020, 08:07
Howard Bond looked at my Norma (he uses Deardorffs) and he said, "It's like comparing a Apollo Moon Buggy to a Model T). :)

Some like Deardorffs (I had one and sold it). Now own four Normas

Corran
12-Jun-2020, 08:07
The objection to an Toyo 810M could be weight, then again anyone doing 8x10 should accept the reality and fact 8x10 will never be a lightweight film format.

Not to be a broken record here, but you haven't used a Wehman 8x10 I would guess.

Really, I don't know why they weren't more popular, other than being called "ugly." It certainly doesn't have the old-school charm of the Chamonix and other fine wooden cameras, nor the modern aesthetic of metal cameras, but I think it has its own space-age feel.

Bernice Loui
12-Jun-2020, 08:09
No love for wood cameras here.

Edit, having owned more than one Dorf and others... never wood again. Simply lacks precision. Friend ordered a Chamonix before they were officially imported to the USA, nice to look at, nice finish, light weight, lacks the precision of a GOOD metal camera ... like Toyo 810M or Sinar Norma or a GOOD Linhof.

Then the lack of a Sinar shutter is the deal buster. Not being able to use barrel lenses or older lenses with questionable shutters filters out any camera lacking a shutter like this.

Oh, let's add bellows limitations, about zero bellows limitations with a Sinar, bellows limitations with a good number of others.


Bernice



Not to be a broken record here, but you haven't used a Wehman 8x10 I would guess.

Really, I don't know why they weren't more popular, other than being called "ugly." It certainly doesn't have the old-school charm of the Chamonix and other fine wooden cameras, nor the modern aesthetic of metal cameras, but I think it has its own space-age feel.

Corran
12-Jun-2020, 08:18
None of those apply to the Wehman cameras, other than having a wooden rear standard. I agree, Deardorffs are not precise and are massively overrated IMO, having used one myself. I invite you to take a look at the Wehman photo I posted in the "Behind the Scenes" thread - no bellows limitations here.

Peter De Smidt
12-Jun-2020, 08:27
I love my Toyo AX, but all of the niggles with an Intrepid 8x10 MKII could be fixed without getting anywhere near the cost and weight of a Toyo 810m. I use a Sinar shutter regularly in the studio. I would not want to use it in the field. If I have to for some reason, then I'd use a Sinar P2.

dap
12-Jun-2020, 14:54
Not to be a broken record here, but you haven't used a Wehman 8x10 I would guess.

Really, I don't know why they weren't more popular, other than being called "ugly." It certainly doesn't have the old-school charm of the Chamonix and other fine wooden cameras, nor the modern aesthetic of metal cameras, but I think it has its own space-age feel.

I owned a Wehman 8x10 for a bit - I did not get along with it at all and sold it off in short order. I was impressed by the design (and it is a smart design), but in the end I was unimpressed with the execution of the design. Certain parts (like the springback/rear standard) were great, but other parts (the front standard and the whole twin channel rail system that it slid on) I found to be rough. It was fine with wide angle/short lenses but when I needed to add the front clamshell to use a long lens I thought the setup felt flimsy. I have never used a Chamonix but I did own a Philips (which is the camera the Chamonix took their design from). I found the Philips to be more solid overall and far more stable at longer extensions. I can only assume that the Chamonix would be just as stable as the Philips. That being said I wouldn't consider any of these cameras to be "affordable" in todays market. When I decided to get back into 8x10 I picked up a Magnesium Kodak Commercial camera and I think it is a great mix of affordability, simplicity, and stability.

Greg Y
12-Jun-2020, 15:37
I'll start by saying : sperdynamite, Congratulations on the Chamonix. Great choice. I know it will serve you well.
I agree entirely with Bernice that going cheap on the camera is "penny wise pound foolish." I've owned & used 8x10 Deardorffs and Canham, and when I decided to sell, I got a high percentage of my money back. If you're going to work with LF it's going to cost money. A new Toyo 8x10 holder costs $300. 5 boxes of 10 sheets of 8x10 Kodak TMY2 costs $500. Good used holders are $100 a pop....& you haven't bought a lens yet.
I don't see cameras like the Intrepid as a good value for money primarily because they're not built to last. I used a '38 Deardorff 5x7 for many years. It worked flawlessly, for me, as i am sure it will for its new owner. There are plenty of old Deardorffs, Empire States, Kodak Masterviews, Toyos, Linhofs that keep on ticking. Unlike the consumerism inherent in (previously) 35mm photography & now in digital cameras, LF lends itself well to taking a tool buyers approach: buy a well-designed tool that will last...& use it.

Louis Pacilla
12-Jun-2020, 15:49
I'll start by saying : sperdynamite, Congratulations on the Chamonix. Great choice. I know it will serve you well.
I agree entirely with Bernice that going cheap on the camera is "penny wise pound foolish." I've owned & used 8x10 Deardorffs and Canham, and when I decided to sell, I got a high percentage of my money back. If you're going to work with LF it's going to cost money. A new Toyo 8x10 holder costs $300. 5 boxes of 10 sheets of 8x10 Kodak TMY2 costs $500. Good used holders are $100 a pop....& you haven't bought a lens yet.
I don't see cameras like the Intrepid as a good value for money primarily because they're not built to last. I used a '38 Deardorff 5x7 for many years. It worked flawlessly, for me, as i am sure it will for its new owner. There are plenty of old Deardorffs, Empire States, Kodak Masterviews, Toyos, Linhofs that keep on ticking. Unlike the consumerism inherent in (previously) 35mm photography & now in digital cameras, LF lends itself well to taking a tool buyers approach: buy a well-designed tool that will last...& use it.

Well said Greg!

+1

Corran
12-Jun-2020, 15:57
I owned a Wehman 8x10 for a bit

Well certainly there can be differing opinions. Also depends on how one works. I don't tend to use long lenses, so actually rarely even have the clamshell on - though with a 450mm Nikkor-M I don't have any complaints about stability, as long as the tripod is solid.

I tried an 8x10 Chamonix and was not a fan personally, though I like the 4x5 ones.

Peter De Smidt
12-Jun-2020, 16:28
I got the Intrepid because it's light; not because it's cheap. It's almost a good camera.

Greg Y
12-Jun-2020, 16:37
It's almost a good camera.

B.S.Kumar
12-Jun-2020, 17:38
If you're going to work with LF it's going to cost money. A new Toyo 8x10 holder costs $300.

No. A new Toyo 8x10 holder costs 15,930 JPY plus shipping.

Kumar

dap
12-Jun-2020, 19:52
Well certainly there can be differing opinions. Also depends on how one works. I don't tend to use long lenses, so actually rarely even have the clamshell on - though with a 450mm Nikkor-M I don't have any complaints about stability, as long as the tripod is solid.

I tried an 8x10 Chamonix and was not a fan personally, though I like the 4x5 ones.

Thank goodness there are plenty of different makes and models of cameras out there to service all of those different opinions :)

Greg Y
12-Jun-2020, 20:10
No. A new Toyo 8x10 holder costs 15,930 JPY plus shipping.

Kumar

Yes, Current new price in New York....
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?Ntt=8x10%20toyo%20holder&N=0&InitialSearch=yes&sts=ma

Dugan
12-Jun-2020, 20:15
Yes, Current new price in New York....
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?Ntt=8x10%20toyo%20holder&N=0&InitialSearch=yes&sts=ma

Maybe so...but I'd rather buy from Kumar. :)

Greg Y
12-Jun-2020, 20:40
Maybe so...but I'd rather buy from Kumar. :)

Maybe so, but this is a small forum. For those who don't know Kumar or haven't been on the Forum long enough to access the Buy/Sell it's price on the street in N America. Regardless, my point was... 'affordable' when you start talking 8x10..... is a relative term.

Peter De Smidt
13-Jun-2020, 03:50
Some rather spurious arguments are being floated here. I'll paraphrase, which is why I'll use single quote marks.

'8x10 has always been heavy. Don't worry about weight.' The same could be said whenever someone suggests a larger format. Medium format is supposed to be heavy.....As if there's not a place for a Rollei TLR and a Fuji GX680. Each is better at some things. I used to use a Toho Shimo FX45x, a super light 4x5. It was terrific for backpacking, although it wasn't as easy to use as, say an Arca or a Sinar. So what? It allowed be to take a 4x5 on week long backpacking trips.

'8x10 is supposed to be expensive.' Really? How about a pinhole camera with paper negatives? How about a cheaper 8x10 camera, and cheap lens and xray film? Have you seen some of the fine work here with xray film? Or Foma? Sure, for some purposes, maybe yours, those might not be great choices, but other people could well have other goals. I love Toyo field cameras, but that doesn't mean that a Kodak 2D isn't a fine camera.

'Just buy an old camera!' Old cameras can come with a lot of issues. I have a bunch of them. Many of them would take more work than fixing my Intrepid.

Intrepid seems to be selling lots of cameras. At least they keep coming out with new products, which they'd likely not do if they weren't making a profit. They seem to be generating a lot of interest in LF photography. That's a good thing. Their cameras are very easy to modify. That too is good. If my camera falls down a cliff and breaks, I'll likely be able to fix it, and I won't feel as if a rare antique has been harmed. I have a bunch of those, too.

Greg Y
13-Jun-2020, 08:12
Peter, "Some rather spurious arguments are being floated here."
You are really saying that there are opinions that differ from yours & they are invalid.

"spu∑ri∑ous
not being what it purports to be; false or fake."

The OP asked if there were 8x10 choices other than Intrepid.
There have been other discussions about camera examples from both Intrepid & Gibellini that exhibited QC issues. Here's a very clearly written opinion about these kinds of issues in the current market:

" I seriously considered an intrepid camera but dropped the idea because of this problem: long than necessary wait times, quality control issues, etc. But I have a question, are these problems because of the crowdfunding mentality---get an idea, make the item, get people worked up over your new product and when you get the funding then, and only then, think about the business plan and logistics or just the way small businesses expect to run these days?

I run a business. You can be certain that I would not still be in business if I ran it this way. Before you say this is not their day job, neither is the business I run."

Peter De Smidt
13-Jun-2020, 08:48
Nope, I wasn't saying that there are opinions that differ from my own, although of course that's true. But I can see that it'll be worthless to continue this discussion.

Corran
13-Jun-2020, 11:11
Agree with Peter. A lot of these statements are presented as facts.

For a couple years I got along with 8x10 using a cheap $300 Gundlach I bought on eBay and x-ray film that was cheaper than my "normal" 4x5 film. It was my cheap, fun format compared to 4x5. The "opinion" that 8x10 shooting is necessarily expensive and must be done with a heavy camera, is not a fact.

Havoc
13-Jun-2020, 13:39
" I seriously considered an intrepid camera but dropped the idea because of this problem: long than necessary wait times, quality control issues, etc. But I have a question, are these problems because of the crowdfunding mentality---get an idea, make the item, get people worked up over your new product and when you get the funding then, and only then, think about the business plan and logistics or just the way small businesses expect to run these days?

I run a business. You can be certain that I would not still be in business if I ran it this way. Before you say this is not their day job, neither is the business I run."

All big shops where overrun with people buying toilet paper when the corona crisis began.... this is not a way to run a business! They need a business plan and logistics! They should not be in this business!

I have a feeling that a lot of people just think that you can plan for anything and everything and that whatever that happens, it is the problem of the business not to have prepared for that case. This was a crowdfunding by a couple of people doing this on the side and expectinga bit of interest. Not expecting such a big interest as they received. So they got overwhelmed and their plans broke down. But apparently they do manage because they adapt and still survive and even expand.

When I see that concerns like Heinz/Kraft have supply chain troubles because of an epidemic I think that a couple of guys making cameras in a garage (oversimplification) can have issues when they are confronted with multiple demand of what they expected.

grat
13-Jun-2020, 14:03
That's a pretty weak definition of spurious.

Here's a better one:


false and not what it appears to be, or (of reasons and judgments) based on something that has not been correctly understood and therefore false:

or how about:


adj.
1. Lacking authenticity or validity in essence or origin; not genuine: spurious poems attributed to Shakespeare.
2. Not trustworthy; dubious or fallacious: spurious reasoning; a spurious justification.
3. Archaic Born to unwed parents.

I would say both cover Peter's usage pretty accurately-- and apply well to some "opinions" that have been expressed in this thread.

As for crowdsourcing, most people who run campaigns on kickstart, indiegogo, etc., have no concept of the difficulty required to scale up from "look at this cool thing I made" to "let's make 100 of these cool things". They tend to be wildly optimistic about production times, delivery times, assembly times, etc.. And then of course, there's the unexpected thing that happens that nobody saw coming (like, say, an earthquake halfway around the world, a flood, a global pandemic).

But Intrepid, by and large, has survived it's trial by fire, and has produced successive iterations of the 4x5 that have improved the product dramatically. Similarly, from the 8x10 mk I to the mk II, there's a substantial improvement. The down side is, they're a small enough company that early adopters are also product testers-- but the company does appear to listen to those complaints, and tries to fix them.

Right now, as far as I know, if you want an inexpensive 8x10 with good customer service, Intrepid is the best bet. The cheapest would be to build your own.

Havoc
13-Jun-2020, 14:15
Right now, as far as I know, if you want an inexpensive 8x10 with good customer service, Intrepid is the best bet. The cheapest would be to build your own.

Might be. IF (big if) you already have some experience with working the materials to construct the camera, have the needed tools already and have easy/cheap access to materials. Not to mention time. Not only are you designer, engineer, manufacturer but also alpha tester, beta tester and client.

Building cameras is a separate hobby from photography.

grat
13-Jun-2020, 14:27
Might be. IF (big if) you already have some experience with working the materials to construct the camera, have the needed tools already and have easy/cheap access to materials. Not to mention time. Not only are you designer, engineer, manufacturer but also alpha tester, beta tester and client.

Building cameras is a separate hobby from photography.

True. I said it would be cheap, I didn't say it would be inexpensive. Time and money, and all that. There are, however, good plans for 8x10's out on the internet.

The woodyman 8x10, mentioned in post #43, is an option I'd forgotten about.

gtmatias
14-Jun-2020, 03:11
Well...
Good to read reviews about those new cheap camera builders.
If you want cheap, build a carsboard camera for a 8x10 Fidelity holder. Just finished one for a Schneider Componon. (Because I'm thinking about building a wooden one)
I also use a home made 4x5 made of African wood204682

Tin Can
14-Jun-2020, 03:51
Nice design!

And one reason I have started calling most big cameras Ďboxí.



Well...
Good to read reviews about those new cheap camera builders.
If you want cheap, build a carsboard camera for a 8x10 Fidelity holder. Just finished one for a Schneider Componon. (Because I'm thinking about building a wooden one)
I also use a home made 4x5 made of African wood204682

Havoc
14-Jun-2020, 06:14
That looks like fun!

gtmatias
15-Jun-2020, 07:23
That looks like fun!

Yes, it is a "Corona Virus" project for me. A bathroom at home is being redone, so I had some boxes from things like the autoclism. I already had this "problematic" Componon 240mm that I got cheap (25 euros / 28 dollars). So... Lets do it (before a build a "real camera")
Already tested and works well (for a cardboard camera). This is an inverted picture of the paper negative.
204706

I did do some "upgrades" for some "light leaks" and for decoration purposes
204707

The 8x10 may be my seventh wooden camera build.

Right now I'm quite happy with my kambala 4x5 camera. That wood is quite stable. It does work as intended. It doesn't have rear movements, as a design option. I don't have the need for it. Even thought has frontal movements and fine focus. I can also keep a lens and fold the camera (a practical need for me).
204708204709

I did built all cameras around "standard" holders. The 4x5 with a Toyo holder and this cardboard one around a Fidelity Elite 8x10. I believe that all the things I build should be compatible as possible with standard equipment.

While designing the 4x5 I tried to learn with all the cameras available (being Technika the reference) and came across with all the mentioned "new" cameras builders (Gibellini, Intrepid, Svedovsky, Stenopeika...).
Whiteout using any of them I have some opinions:

Gibellini:
I didn't know the base 8x10 was so cheap! I do think he uses many industrial standard parts and then he fell in love with CNC. It looks like over engineered in the design chapter. Don't like much the looks and the way the ground glass attaches to the camera. Too much small spaces: great for dust, bad to transport or to use outside. NEVER thought it could be almost incompatible with standard film holders!

Intrepid:
I do think they also "fell in love" for the computer and CNC. Plywood isn't a bad think but may have some disadvantages. They don't look very robust but the cameras came a long way already. Maybe a good starter's camera. Quite basic. Quite cheap (?)

Svedovsky:
Less is more. It looks quite basic and well built. "real wood", Doesn't look to have many parts. Well finished. That camera gave me some ideas for the 8x10. It might be a good camera.

Stenopeika:
It has many shelf parts (does't he uses drawers sliders??). He could improve the portability by design. It looks quite bulky (the focusing systems and movements make the cameras "tall" when opened. If it is sturdy? I can't say.

I don't which of these I would choose. Deardorff look quite good (anyone has an opinion about those. Some had/have 6 but didn't get the opinion). Canham looks fantastic (anyone with an opinion about it?). Toyo... Toyo is a Toyo (lol). It's a pity Ebony ended.

Hope I helped!

PS:
I started with pinhole. This is my currently used. Modular for multiple focal distances
https://www.flickr.com/photos/gtmatias/albums/72157654589638486

Havoc
15-Jun-2020, 08:07
Right now I'm quite happy with my kambala 4x5 camera. That wood is quite stable. It does work as intended. It doesn't have rear movements, as a design option. I don't have the need for it. Even thought has frontal movements and fine focus. I can also keep a lens and fold the camera (a practical need for me).
204708204709

I love that 4x5. Nice and simple.

sperdynamite
15-Jun-2020, 17:11
Doing a DIY camera does sound like a cool project, but way beyond my abilities. I have always regretted not purchasing a Bender kit however. I found out later that Mr. Bender himself went to the same college as me, Southern Illinois University.

I wish he still made them.

Eric Leppanen
9-Jul-2020, 10:40
Freestyle is now carrying Gibellini:

https://myemail.constantcontact.com/The-NEW-Gibellini-Cameras-are-Here-.html?soid=1132976746394&aid=GbDvjCORYDo
https://www.freestylephoto.biz/search?q=Gibellini

Corran
9-Jul-2020, 11:35
I wonder if they'll be handling returns/repairs too then...

carylee2002
14-Jul-2020, 01:14
I have 2 Kodak 2D 8x10 and they work fine. The hard part is finding a good one nowdays.

gtmatias
19-Jul-2020, 13:23
Ok,

the "CO-VID" cardboard camera is alive. :D

206011

Luis-F-S
19-Jul-2020, 18:05
I don't which of these I would choose. Deardorff look quite good (anyone has an opinion about those. Some had/have 6 but didn't get the opinion).

Hope I helped!


I think the fact that they have 6 should be opinion enough! See Post 27 in:

https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?159057-8x10-Camera-Musing/page3

gtmatias
21-Jul-2020, 06:04
Quite nice to see.
Already new the brand and cameras. Even thought, the fact of having 6 puts the question: why 6 cameras?