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emilediaz
15-Jun-2019, 14:03
Hello all:

I am new to the forum and new to large-format. I am working with Ilford Delta 100 bw, 8x10 film.

I am seeing these dark clouds upon developing. I even went so far as to mix a new batch of chemistry with great care. In the image I have attached I am exaggerating the contrast to show the problem. It's not as severe but it should not be there.

I am hoping someone in the forum can help.

Thank you all,

Emile

popdoc
16-Jun-2019, 05:21
I had something like this happen the first time I combined delta 400 and photographers formulary TF – 4 rapid fixer for the first time. The negatives did not clear completely using the “recommended“ time…

Perhaps you are having a similar event?

You can “finish the job“ by putting the negatives back in the fixer for another 5 to 10 minutes, and that may solve the problem. Wash as usual thereafter.

Best of luck!

Experience is quite a teacher...

I am still learning, that’s for sure :-)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Fred L
16-Jun-2019, 06:09
how are you processing your film ? looks like developing issues to me. cld be poor fixing as well. does the negatve look slightly milky in the affected areas ?

bob carnie
16-Jun-2019, 06:13
Insufficient agitation in the first 20 seconds of development... the single most common cause of this issue.

G Benaim
16-Jun-2019, 06:14
That looks like uneven development, how are you deving the negs?

emilediaz
16-Jun-2019, 15:08
Hey all:

Many thanks for your kind replies. I still need help and I have been unable to make any progress.

I'll try and outline my dev process as simply as possible and then add comments in response to all the suggestions. Again, I really appreciate your notes and would appreciate any further insight.

NOTE: The film I started seeing this problem with was Kodak TMAX 400 BW. However, I switched films and the image I added in my original post was from Ilford Delta 100 BW. So I am seeing the problem on two different types of films.

First, my dev process:

I am using all Sprint Systems Chemicals.

• Starting out with a 1 min water soak.
• Developer was "Sprint Systems of Photography FL020-R" diluted 1:9 as recommended by the manufacturer. Dev agitation for 7 mins to 8:30 mins depending on the temp.
• 1 min Stop. Again, "Sprint Systems of Photography SB020-R" diluted 1:9 as recommended by the manufacturer.
• 6 Mins in Fixer. "Sprint Systems of Photography FX004-R" diluted 2:8 as as recommended by the manufacturer.
• 1 Min water bath.
• 3 Mins Fixer Remover (Hypo) "Sprint Systems of Photography FR004-R " diluted 1:9 as recommended by the manufacturer.
• 1 Min Photo Flo.
• 15 Minutes drying time.

I slowly worked to eliminate possible issues of light leaks, humidity, chemistry etc. But no luck. I even tried mixing fresh batches of chemicals and got the same result.

I even refixed some of the negs, but no go.

One big item I should mention: I have always been told to use 1-size up trays for dev; use 8x10 trays for 4x5 negs and use 11x14 trays for 8x10 negs etc. For various reasons I have always ignore this advice. I have processed hundreds of 4x5 negs in 4x5 trays without any issues. All these 8x10 negs were devloped in 8x10 trays. I mention this because I occasionally I see people pointing this out as a possible issue.

Below please see my notes to all the helpful comments:

>>G Benaim
>>That looks like uneven development, how are you deving the negs?

Please see above for details.

>>bob carnie
>>Insufficient agitation in the first 20 seconds of development... the single most common cause of this issue.

In my case, I always start out with a full 30-sec constant agitation for each bath. Then slow down to a few seconds of agitation for every 30 secs. I am very consistent with this.

>>Fred L
>>how are you processing your film ? looks like developing issues to me. cld be poor fixing as well. does the negatve look slightly milky in the affected areas ?

It's kind of milky, I guess. On the negative it looks more like a white cloud. Of course when made positive it turns black. Just to eliminate poor fixing, I refixed the negs by soaking in water for 4 mins then fix for 6, the 1 min water, 3 mins Hypo and 1 min Photo flo. None of that removed the problem.


>>popdoc
>>I had something like this happen the first time I combined delta 400 and photographers formulary TF – 4 rapid fixer for the first time. The negatives did not clear completely using the “recommended“ time…
>>Perhaps you are having a similar event?
>>You can “finish the job“ by putting the negatives back in the fixer for another 5 to 10 minutes, and that may solve the problem. Wash as usual thereafter.

Tried that. Not for 10 minutes but for 6 and that seems to have made no difference.

blue4130
16-Jun-2019, 15:16
Last year (I think) someone had a similar issue that ended up being the darkslides were not opaque and causing light to bleed through. They were toyo holders if I am not mistaken. Long shot, but it could be this.

emilediaz
17-Jun-2019, 03:09
Last year (I think) someone had a similar issue that ended up being the darkslides were not opaque and causing light to bleed through. They were toyo holders if I am not mistaken. Long shot, but it could be this.

Thanks so much for your reply. I can test this by overlaying various scans as layers in Photoshop to spot any similarities. I've done that without results. Also, I have used most of these holders in a previous project, without any issues.

Doremus Scudder
17-Jun-2019, 10:28
If the "clouds" look milky on the film, as you say, then it is almost definitely underfixing. The fact that they didn't clear up when refixing points to inactive fixer. Test your fixer with a strip of film to see if the fixer clears film quickly. Fresh rapid fix should clear film in under one minute. If that's not the case, mix a new batch from a new bottle (your old concentrate is dead) or mix fresh powder and try again.

Best,

Doremus

Jerry Bodine
17-Jun-2019, 10:41
Two things come to mind. (1) The one minute water soak with constant agitation may be too short to ensure complete removal of the anti-halation layer on the base side of the film; I use 2 minutes and others have used even longer times. I'd think that any AH layer left on the negative should, in effect, increase the visible density and be seen as a lighter tone in the positive; although this would contradict what you've said is seen as a positive. Is your posted picture a negative or positive? (2) If that doesn't resolve the issue, then definitely change to an 11x14 (or larger) tray. Obviously, I'm groping at straws here.

I think Doremus is closer to the solution, though.

Bob Salomon
17-Jun-2019, 11:09
Two things come to mind. (1) The one minute water soak with constant agitation may be too short to ensure complete removal of the anti-halation layer on the base side of the film; I use 2 minutes and others have used even longer times. I'd think that any AH layer left on the negative should, in effect, increase the visible density and be seen as a lighter tone in the positive; although this would contradict what you've said is seen as a positive. Is your posted picture a negative or positive? (2) If that doesn't resolve the issue, then definitely change to an 11x14 (or larger) tray. Obviously, I'm groping at straws here.

I think Doremus is closer to the solution, though.

Just bear in mind, the longer the wet time the larger the grain.

emilediaz
17-Jun-2019, 16:51
If the "clouds" look milky on the film, as you say, then it is almost definitely underfixing. The fact that they didn't clear up when refixing points to inactive fixer. Test your fixer with a strip of film to see if the fixer clears film quickly. Fresh rapid fix should clear film in under one minute. If that's not the case, mix a new batch from a new bottle (your old concentrate is dead) or mix fresh powder and try again.

Best,

Doremus

I did refix with a new batch of fixer but nothing happened. I will check my fixer and try again.

emilediaz
17-Jun-2019, 16:58
Jerry: I really appreciate your notes. I am desperate enough to try anything. My very next step is to try a longer soak (2 mins) and then use 11x14 trays.

BTW: The image I posted is a positive. I increased the contrast to show the problem more clearly. On the negative one could almost miss the issue. It is usually visible as a slightly whitish streak. But when you scan and look closer the issue is all over. (Just to be certain I even changed the scanner.)

I even made our house up to room temp because I noticed my lenses were fogging when I took them outside to the warm, humid air. I figured maybe it was the condensation on the film. But even after changing the temps in the house the issue has persisted.

I am definitely down to issues related to incomplete development and more than likely suspect the smaller trays and the lack of removal on the AH layer.

Thanks again for your input.

koraks
17-Jun-2019, 23:22
Does the film look cloudy when dry as well? If so, incomplete fixing is likely to be part of the problem.

However, looking at the pattern of unevenness, I'd personally say that tray size likely contributes to the problem as well. The edges are overall more developed than the center, which is what I've experienced many times working with xray film in trays that were too small.

Gary Samson
18-Jun-2019, 07:25
You should be washing your film after the Fixer Remover step, did you leave it off the list of the processing steps accidentally or are you doing this? Are you processing one sheet at a time?

MIke Sherck
18-Jun-2019, 07:43
To help validate agitation, try continuous gentle agitation for the entire development time. My trays don't sit quite level on my bench and I get a gentle rocking motion by just pressong a corner of the tray every couple of seconds. I really think that insufficient agitation in too small of a tray is the best diagnosis. You've changed to a larger tray, now try more agitation and possibly using more developer solution. The negative should be completely covered all during development.

emilediaz
18-Jun-2019, 09:40
>>>You should be washing your film after the Fixer Remover step, did you leave it off the list of the processing steps accidentally or are you doing this? Are you processing one sheet at a time?

Gary:

I am processing 1 sheet at a time. After the fixer I agitate for about a minute in a water bath before placing it into hypo for 3 mins. Then to photo flo and drying. That's been my pattern for a while. Ami I doing that wrong?

Doremus Scudder
18-Jun-2019, 09:52
>>>You should be washing your film after the Fixer Remover step, did you leave it off the list of the processing steps accidentally or are you doing this? Are you processing one sheet at a time?

Gary:

I am processing 1 sheet at a time. After the fixer I agitate for about a minute in a water bath before placing it into hypo for 3 mins. Then to photo flo and drying. That's been my pattern for a while. Ami I doing that wrong?

Develop
Stop
Fix
Rinse
Hypo-clearing agent (not "hypo," hypo is another term for fixer)
Wash in running water for 15-30 minutes
Wetting agent (PhotoFlo)
Hang to dry

emilediaz
18-Jun-2019, 15:37
Develop
Stop
Fix
Rinse
Hypo-clearing agent (not "hypo," hypo is another term for fixer)
Wash in running water for 15-30 minutes
Wetting agent (PhotoFlo)
Hang to dry

Doremus:

You are clearly the expert here.

And so I really appreciate your input. I will redesign my workflow in the future.

However, for the present here's my issue: For the few hundred sheets of 4x5s and (not as many) of 8x10s I have done, I have never washed my negs for 15-30 minutes after Hypo-clearing. I was probably taught by people far less accomplished than yourself. However, I have never seen this particular issue that I am trying to get help with. Before I add another 15-30 minutes to my workflow (and I would immediately do that if I thought that were the cause of this present issue) I am trying to troubleshoot this problem that I do not think may be related to a lack of that wash. (Even though per your suggestion I will try that.)

What is throwing me off that despite my process lacking the 15-30 minute wash, I have not seen this issue before.

Thanks again.

emilediaz
18-Jun-2019, 15:37
Develop
Stop
Fix
Rinse
Hypo-clearing agent (not "hypo," hypo is another term for fixer)
Wash in running water for 15-30 minutes
Wetting agent (PhotoFlo)
Hang to dry

Doremus:

You are clearly the expert here.

And so I really appreciate your input. I will redesign my workflow in the future.

However, for the present here's my issue: For the few hundred sheets of 4x5s and (not as many) of 8x10s I have done, I have never washed my negs for 15-30 minutes after Hypo-clearing. I was probably taught by people far less accomplished than yourself. However, I have never seen this particular issue that I am trying to get help with. Before I add another 15-30 minutes to my workflow (and I would immediately do that if I thought that were the cause of this present issue) I am trying to troubleshoot this problem that I do not think may be related to a lack of that wash. (Even though per your suggestion I will try that.)

What is throwing me off that despite my process lacking the 15-30 minute wash, I have not seen this issue before.

Thanks again.

Fred L
18-Jun-2019, 17:14
fwiw, I used to Permawash my negs but have stopped doing that. Think over the years, the consensus what that it wasn't necessary, with a proper longish wash. When I wash in the Expert tank, I do a number of exchanges, similar to the Ilford method of fill and dump. I'm also looking at starting to use hangers and wash with a Gravity Works washer, but at low flows.

emilediaz
18-Jun-2019, 17:33
fwiw, I used to Permawash my negs but have stopped doing that. Think over the years, the consensus what that it wasn't necessary, with a proper longish wash. When I wash in the Expert tank, I do a number of exchanges, similar to the Ilford method of fill and dump. I'm also looking at starting to use hangers and wash with a Gravity Works washer, but at low flows.

Thank you Fred. That helps provide another reference.

Doremus Scudder
19-Jun-2019, 11:40
Here's a good thread on film washing. https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/film-washing-test.69416/

Greg Davis has done a number of tests. You can decide which method suits you best, but the bottom line is you need to wash film 30 minutes if you don't use a hypo-clearing agent (which, BTW is not recommended for staining developers) or 15 minutes with a hypo-clearing agent.

This ends up being slightly more (five minutes more) than Ilford recommends.

Have fun,

Doremus

emilediaz
19-Jun-2019, 15:26
Here's a good thread on film washing. https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/film-washing-test.69416/

Greg Davis has done a number of tests. You can decide which method suits you best, but the bottom line is you need to wash film 30 minutes if you don't use a hypo-clearing agent (which, BTW is not recommended for staining developers) or 15 minutes with a hypo-clearing agent.

This ends up being slightly more (five minutes more) than Ilford recommends.

Have fun,

Doremus

Thank you very much. I am religious about the use of hypo-clearing agent but I will look at that link.