Sinar Pan Tilt head from China - Impressed

[nbagno]

Not being able to find a decent Sinar PT head, I decided to order one of the copies from ebay. Obviously I can't comment on long term durability, but from my initial trials on my P2 it really seems to be well made. Loaded up the camera with my largest lens, put on the reflex magnifier and tilted the camera on the head and it locks down tight and solid. Can't ask for much more than that. I also bought a new bellows and a replacement for one of the dried out levels and they are all well made and fit like an OEM part. :D

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[peter schrager]

seller name? does it really say Sinar on the head?? just curious?/

[nbagno]

luland66 The listing picture doesn't say Sinar, but the one I got did. Catlabs also lists these on their web site for a few dollars more.

[Bernice Loui]

Curious, possible to get a picture of the bottom of this pan-tilt head clone? The design and construction of the base is different than the Sinar. Sinar base is made of steel and has adjustments for part tolerances and gap. This clone appears to be made of brass with no adjustments.

Is the tilt locking handle made of plastic or some kind of metal and could the locked angle of the handle be adjusted?


Bernice

[nbagno]

Not sure what adjustment you're talking about, but here's a couple more pictures. There are alignment screws on top. The tilt locking handle is metal and you can adjust the angle by pulling the handle and turning it.

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[Kevin J. Kolosky]

How difficult is it to change those dried out levels?

[nbagno]

How difficult is it to change those dried out levels?

Took about a minute, at least for the one I replaced.

[Kevin J. Kolosky]

what is involved?

[Peter De Smidt]

Remove the two small screws. Slide the old level out. Slide the new one in. Replace screws. Calibrate level using another level. Tighten screws.

[nbagno]

The level I replaced sits behind a metal plate that you remove via two small screws. The level is held in place with two small screws also. The level comes pre-mounted on a white plastic bracket.

[Bernice Loui]

Thank you much for posting. These are precisely the images needed for a comparison.

The Sinar Pan Tilt has a steel base top with aluminum bottom to reduce weight. The steel top is to provide strength and durability, the aluminum bottom is to reduce weight. The top of the base has three gap adjusting screws to minimize play in the base rotation and could compensate for wear. Steel top has 3/8"-16 tripod mount threads for durability.
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The made in China clone has a brass rotational base with no adjustment. Rotational base play-tolerances are dependent on machine tolerances when produced.

The Sinar Pan Tilt fine thread clamp screw is pinned to the cast aluminum handle. Very durable and parts can be replaced-repaired if ever needed. The clamp plate is made of aluminum to reduce weight with a pressed in brass nut for durability. That brass nut is pressed in to the aluminum cap and replaceable if needed.

The made in China clone has a spring loaded hex drive handle which can wear the hex drive handle and hex threaded clamp rod over time and tighten-loosening cycles. No idea what material is used for the clamp nut or how that mechanical design is done. Some pictures could resolve this question.

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Position of the Sinar Pan Tilt clamping handle can be adjusted. Discussed in this previous thread, post# 12.
https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?151106-Is-the-Sinar-pan-tilt-head-usable-with-a-flatbed-camera&p=1489188&highlight=sinar+pan+tilt+head#post1489188


Bernice







Not sure what adjustment you're talking about, but here's a couple more pictures. There are alignment screws on top. The tilt locking handle is metal and you can adjust the angle by pulling the handle and turning it.

[Drew Wiley]

If it actually says Sinar on it and was made in China, it's a form of counterfeiting. Hopefully, it doesn't. Perhaps they're just trying to imply it's Sinar-compatible, but the brand name really shouldn't be on it at all.The Chinese have a habit of melt-casting instead of true die-casting, which is far cheaper to do, but results in metal that is nowhere near as durable and corrodes easily. I wouldn't buy anything falsely labeled, even if it works. I also worry about toxic paint on such things coming off once it does start to corrode. Of course, if a dealer imported counterfeit labeled items and sold them here, it's technically a crime - the $10 Rolex sold in a back alley scenario. Happens all the time; but I have seen a few gross offenders go to prison for it. But something like this isn't going to ruffle any feathers. Just chime in later after it's seen some weather, regarding whether it corrodes or not.

[Bob Salomon]

“...Just chime in later after it's seen some weather, regarding whether it corrodes or not.”

Back in the mid 60s, when Sinar was still imported by Paillard in NJ, I bought a new Sinar Norma 45, 57 and 810 Expert system for my studio switching from Plaubel which was then imported by EPOI. My studio was in lower Fairfield county in CT.
I had a terrible problem with the Sinar rails developing what looked like corrosion, even though the rails were aluminum. It exams so bad that every few months I would receive a visit from the Sinar Product Manager who would replace the rails.

Never did receive an answer as to what it was and what caused it.

[Drew Wiley]

Weird. Sinar rails are steel, this area is full of salty ocean air, and I don't have a bit of corrosion on any of my Sinar rails after decades of outdoor use. I have second-generation Norma components, and F and second-generation P components, but no first generation Norma. The anodizing on the diecast aluminum seems to be different, but you'd have to ask them. You should see what the salt air has done to my aluminum window frames over the years!

[pjd]

The head being sold by Catlabs looks quite crappy, not remotely near Sinar quality - even the faked logo looks wrong somehow. They are shamelessly flogging as "Sinar-style". I'd be embarrassed to put a camera on it.

[Bernice Loui]

Might go a bit deeper into the Sinar Pan Tilt head to reveal just how well designed and made these are. Too many clone items often look good on the outside, but inside where it really counts can be cost-reductioned to remarkable degrees.

The Sinar Pan Tilt is made of with a high quality die casting (aluminum alloy) with very low porosity, then accurately machined to fit and finish. No idea how the clone is made, low cost castings will have porosity problems, material problems and more resulting in failures when least expected or poor durability and ability to survive abuse and being used a lot.

The Sinar Pan Tilt in this picture was purchased used in the mid-1980's. Since then it has been tossed around in the back of a car, used with BIG lenses on a Sinar P, some life in a studio setting and a LOT more. It has been cleaned and lubed once and has held up great in every way. Always functional, always stable, always reliable. The other Sinar Pan Tilt is more beat up than this one as it has had a harder life over the decades, yet it continues to function flawlessly.

IMO, it is penny wise and found foolish to skimp in such a vital item as a tripod head when it is so basic to any images made. Beyond this, if any part of the camera support system fails the results can be expensive and disastrous in eye popping ways.



Bernice

[Bernice Loui]

All the Sinar rails here including the ones on both Normas are hard anodized aluminum alloy tube with a stainless steel guide and steel threaded fittings on plastic. Never had any corrosion or function issues with any of them in any way. Later Sinar rails and cameras became all black with the aluminum rails being black anodized. Again, zero problems. They are indoors on the CA coast which does not make life easy on metal bits, yet these Sinar cameras have been corrosion free in every way.


Bernice



Weird. Sinar rails are steel, this area is full of salty ocean air, and I don't have a bit of corrosion on any of my Sinar rails after decades of outdoor use. I have second-generation Norma components, and F and second-generation P components, but no first generation Norma. The anodizing on the diecast aluminum seems to be different, but you'd have to ask them. You should see what the salt air has done to my aluminum window frames over the years!

[nbagno]

Having used this clone head, I have no issues putting my camera on it. Seems well built and should be able to meet my needs perfectly. Now to find a replacement for the worn out plastic shift rail on the front standard.


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[David Lindquist]

I have two Sinar pan tilt heads. One is like the one Bernice references here and like the one in the thread on adjusting the handle angle. The other is a later model and has some similarities to the OP's pan tilt head. Like the OP's model, on mine the angle of the handle is adjusted by pulling it out a bit (it's spring loaded) and rotating it to the desired position. Evidently it's more complex than the arrangement on the OP's head as it indexes to at least 12 positions so it's not working on a hex.

The base on mine is like that of the OP's; though the bit that's threaded 3/8-16 and about which the base rotates is steel rather than brass. On the bottom of mine, as on the OP's, there are three set screws. Presumably these have the same adjustment function as the three flat head screws on Bernice's older example. (Until now I had wondered what these were for).

As for possible issues with castings on the OP's head, I wouldn't be at all surprised that rather than using castings these are being CNC milled from something like 6061 aluminum. Incidentally Ries switched from using die casting to milling from the solid a few years ago.

David

[Drew Wiley]

Making dies themselves is a significant expense; but it results a superior alloy. CNC milling is taking over due to its convenience and affordability, but works best for flat stock. Melt casting is what we used to contemptuous call pot metal. It has just a fraction of the integrity of die-casting. That's a somewhat oversimplified explanation, but a fairly reliable prediction that you get what you pay for.

[Jac@stafford.net]

One outstanding question - how long will any owner of this particular Chinese clone use it to a failure point? I think none will. Engineering metrics include anticipated lifetime use.

[Drew Wiley]

Lots of Chinese clone equipment is classified as disposable. Counterfeit products can be worse. Example: US made commercial Milwaukee drills often lasted over 20 years before needing a repair. But now the company itself is Chinese owned and made, and failures occur within 20 minutes; and much of this newer stuff CAN'T be repaired. I'm still using 30 yr old diecast nail guns; the new melt-cast ones last a few months if you're lucky. I have three old Stanley-Marsh mitre vises; one is probably a hundred years old. But with a bit of minor cleaning, they look and function as if new. For a fourth I got a new Chinese clone, and within a month it had corroded and pieces started falling off. Nothing would tighten correctly either. And that's only about .001% of the examples I could give!