4x5 field camera with geared movements

[afxstudio]

I was wondering if the market offers a 4x5 field camera with geared movements.
Basically a Chamonix F2 with the geared movements of the Arca Swiss F-field monorail.

I've been looking at the Chamonix for my next upgrade, but thinking about what slows me down with my current setup (aside from my own fault) made me realize that having geared and precise movements, especially with tilt, would be a really nice improvement.

Does anything like that exist?

[Peter De Smidt]

Why not just stick with an Arca? They aren't that bulky, especially if the kit is put together with field use in mind. I borrowed an Arca f for a few weeks a couple of years ago. It's my favorite camera for use in the field that I've used, and I've used quite a few. If I had the money, I'd have one.

[Ken Lee]

Field cameras are designed for portability: each brand saves size and weight by discarding some combination of geared movements, front or rear movements, yaw-free movements, rigidity, bellows length, precision machining, etc.

As Peter said, Arca Swiss came closest to delivering all those features with the lightest weight - but at high cost. Even so, it doesn't fold down or compress to reduce size when traveling.

For shooting indoors and within walking distance of my car, I use a Sinar P (http://www.kennethleegallery.com/index.php#Sinar) which provides fully geared yaw-free movements front and rear.

I use a field camera only when hiking.

[Oren Grad]

The Toyo VX125/125b (NOT the 125R) has geared rise and shift, and AFAIK will be the lightest monorail camera with that feature. No geared tilt, though.

I think a few field cameras have geared rise only.

EDIT: But see Chuck Pere's post below re the Wisner Pocket Expedition:

https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?152747-4x5-field-camera-with-geared-movements&p=1504192&viewfull=1#post1504192

[Bernice Loui]

The Arca Swiss Monolith has geared movements, their more common cameras do not. Arca does offer a folding rail that makes them easier to transport.

There are hybrids like the Toyo VX.

Geared camera movements are great when precision of camera movements are a must with repeatability. This need is most common for studio table top or similar image needs that often combine swing-tilt-shift-rise. For most outdoor Nature scenes, this is not often needed and why Field cameras tend not to be designed and made this way as lower weight is of prime concern.


Bernice

[Pere Casals]

made me realize that having geared and precise movements, especially with tilt, would be a really nice improvement.

Does anything like that exist?


IMHO this is the wrong way, gearings are unnecessary and a problem in the field. Also IMHO this is the kind of improvement that's good for the field:

192352

Precise, compact, easy to deploy, refined and range finder capable. Single probem is $ for the later models.

_____


With no gearing, if you rest your hand on the frame and clamp with your fingers on the movement you have a totally precise adjustment, with some practice.

The real problem with movements in the field is tripod, after adjusting your movements you insert the film holder, tripod head can be "elastic", but it has to return to exactly the same direction after making force for inserting the holder, if not the plane of focus will move a lot. A good test is placing a laser toy pointer in the front standard to see if the camera returns to de same direction, or inserting-removing a holder and checking focus plane position again in the GG to see if it moved.

If no tilt-swing a change in the camera direction only provocates a change in the framing, but if a tilt-swing is there then also the plane of focus moves in the scene.

[Bernice Loui]

Sinar Norma-Pre Sinar Meter film back and Arca Swiss B series 5x7_13x18cm camera backs have a ground glass lifter to prevent the problem of camera movement after setting up the camera while inserting the film holder.
192353
Results, zero camera shift when the film holder is loaded into the camera.


Later Sinar meter back cameras lost this very nice feature.
192354


Bernice

[rdeloe]

I've owned and used two kinds of 4x5 field cameras and two kinds of rail cameras. I don't do studio work, but I do a lot of "field studio" shooting (up close, tight), so movements and flexibility mattered to me.

Lately my favourite is an old rail camera, the Toyo D45M. I lusted after the Toyo VX125 that Oren mentions, but it's really expensive! Some forum members put me onto a sleeper in the Toyo lineup, the old D45M. These were designed for professionals, but in an era where things weren't too complicated yet -- so no yaw free movements and much less bulky than later Toyo rail cameras (except the VX125). You get geared rise/fall, geared shift, and geared focus on the rail. Swing and tilt are by finger pressure, and both are very smooth and intuitive. I actually prefer swing and tilt this way now that I've used the camera for a while; the movements are very precise and easy. Everything is adjustable in case of misalignment. The basic standards + short rail + lens board adapter + rotating film back come in at around 7.5 lbs. My Wista 45VX is only one pound lighter. On the short rail, the camera folds down to a relatively small package that easily fits into my small pack. In the picture where it's in the pack, there's no lens on the board; normally I carry it with whatever lens was on it the last time I used it. Also not shown is the compendium shade that clips onto the front.

I tend to favour longer lenses over wider lenses, and I like working up close, so I needed lots of extension. The bellows on my D45M are new and lighter and thinner than OEM, so they compress down very nicely. I can use a 90mm lens with the flat lens boards and standard bellows (but almost no movements). If I throw on the 40mm recessed lens board, the standard bellows gives me lots of movements with the 90mm. And if I throw on the bag bellows, there's more movement with the 90mm than I'll likely use. I had the bellows maker put in a few extra folds, so with the two extension rails I can rack out to around 500mm and still have movements. I don't need that much extension because my longest lens is a 300mm, but it's nice to have the option.

Because it's so simple, the camera sets up extremely quickly. I leave the rail clamp attached to my tripod, so setting up simply involves taking the camera out of the pack, putting it on the clamp, and (depending on lens) adding an extension rail.

192355

192356

192357

192358

[Jim Noel]

IMHO this is the wrong way, gearings are unnecessary and a problem in the field. Also IMHO this is the kind of improvement that's good for the field:

192352

Precise, compact, easy to deploy, refined and range finder capable. Single probem is $ for the later models.

_____


With no gearing, if you rest your hand on the frame and clamp with your fingers on the movement you have a totally precise adjustment, with some practice.

The real problem with movements in the field is tripod, after adjusting your movements you insert the film holder, tripod head can be "elastic", but it has to return to exactly the same direction after making force for inserting the holder, if not the plane of focus will move a lot. A good test is placing a laser toy pointer in the front standard to see if the camera returns to de same direction, or inserting-removing a holder and checking focus plane position again in the GG to see if it moved.

If no tilt-swing a change in the camera direction only provocates a change in the framing, but if a tilt-swing is there then also the plane of focus moves in the scene.

You neglected the weight.

[Peter De Smidt]

I don't like the Sinar metering back for field use. Anyway, don't the two smaller levers on the newer back work just fine for opening the back to insert a holder? I use my P2 in the field quite a bit.

Rob, that Toyo looks like a great camera.

[Bernice Loui]

Think you have a Sinar P2 with meter back ?

The Sinar meter back side lifers does not lift from the center of the GG, they lift one end of the GG. While this does aid in placing the film holder into the camera, it requires some juggling to get the film holder into the camera. The center lift on Sinar Norma and non meter back 5x7_13x18cm completely lifts up the GG allowing very easy placement of the film holder into the camera.
192359


Totally pointless to use a Sinar meter back outdoors unless you're going drag along the Sinar meter system with the Sinar meter back camera.


Bernice


I don't like the Sinar metering back for field use. Anyway, don't the two smaller levers on the newer back work just fine for opening the back to insert a holder?

[Richard Wasserman]

You neglected the weight.

Yes, but it does have geared front rise. I really like mine and am happy to put up with the extra weight for the precision and robustness the Technika offers.

[Bernice Loui]

Design appears to be more than inspired by the Sinar Norma.. Even the rail clamp looks remarkably similar.

Difficulty with monorail cameras, they are not for all. As with any VC, it is all a set of trade-offs with no single ideal VC for all needs.


Bernice



I've owned and used two kinds of 4x5 field cameras and two kinds of rail cameras. I don't do studio work, but I do a lot of "field studio" shooting (up close, tight), so movements and flexibility mattered to me.

Lately my favourite is an old rail camera, the Toyo D45M. I lusted after the Toyo VX125 that Oren mentions, but it's really expensive! Some forum members put me onto a sleeper in the Toyo lineup, the old D45M. These were designed for professionals, but in an era where things weren't too complicated yet -- so no yaw free movements and much less bulky than later Toyo rail cameras (except the VX125). You get geared rise/fall, geared shift, and geared focus on the rail. Swing and tilt are by finger pressure, and both are very smooth and intuitive. I actually prefer swing and tilt this way now that I've used the camera for a while; the movements are very precise and easy. Everything is adjustable in case of misalignment. The basic standards + short rail + lens board adapter + rotating film back come in at around 7.5 lbs. My Wista 45VX is only one pound lighter. On the short rail, the camera folds down to a relatively small package that easily fits into my small pack. In the picture where it's in the pack, there's no lens on the board; normally I carry it with whatever lens was on it the last time I used it. Also not shown is the compendium shade that clips onto the front.

I tend to favour longer lenses over wider lenses, and I like working up close, so I needed lots of extension. The bellows on my D45M are new and lighter and thinner than OEM, so they compress down very nicely. I can use a 90mm lens with the flat lens boards and standard bellows (but almost no movements). If I throw on the 40mm recessed lens board, the standard bellows gives me lots of movements with the 90mm. And if I throw on the bag bellows, there's more movement with the 90mm than I'll likely use. I had the bellows maker put in a few extra folds, so with the two extension rails I can rack out to around 500mm and still have movements. I don't need that much extension because my longest lens is a 300mm, but it's nice to have the option.

Because it's so simple, the camera sets up extremely quickly. I leave the rail clamp attached to my tripod, so setting up simply involves taking the camera out of the pack, putting it on the clamp, and (depending on lens) adding an extension rail.

[rdeloe]

Rob, that Toyo looks like a great camera.

I really enjoy using it. I appreciate good design, and I'm a fan of simplicity -- in the sense of only making things as complicated as they need to be. I think the Toyo engineers struck a very nice balance. Solid, reliable, flexible, fixable.

[Peter De Smidt]

Think you have a Sinar P2 with meter back ?

The Sinar meter back side lifers does not lift from the center of the GG, they lift one end of the GG. While this does aid in placing the film holder into the camera, it requires some juggling to get the film holder into the camera. The center lift on Sinar Norma and non meter back 5x7_13x18cm completely lifts up the GG allowing very easy placement of the film holder into the camera.


Inserting a film holder into a Sinar with the bottom levers is no problem at all.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ri9o14p97fmdrg1/Sinar_Back_Levers.JPG?raw=1

[Pere Casals]

You neglected the weight.

Jim, a lightweight 45 Tachihara is 1600gr while the Linhof it is 2600g, but we always can remove the rangefinder/cam assembly to save some weight. Still the Linhof precission, rigidity and handling it also has to be considered, there is a trade-off.

Having a precission rangefinder it is also an strong point, we may save the dark cloth and the loupe, and in some special conditions we even may save the tripod than can be sustituted by a very light monopod.

Perhaps for 4x5 the camera ultimate lightweight is not as important as how the camera is, for 8x10 it's different !!!

[Bob Salomon]

Jim, a lightweight 45 Tachihara is 1600gr while the Linhof it is 2600g, but we always can remove the rangefinder/cam assembly to save some weight. Still the Linhof precission, rigidity and handling it also has to be considered, there is a trade-off.

Having a precission rangefinder it is also an strong point, we may save the dark cloth and the loupe, and in some special conditions we even may save the tripod than can be sustituted by a very light monopod.

Perhaps for 4x5 the camera ultimate lightweight is not as important as how the camera is, for 8x10 it's different !!!

How much weight do you think it would save?
Are you talking about just removing the RF housing or completely gutting the focusing mechanism.

[Doremus Scudder]

I gladly sacrifice geared movements for light weight. I carry my camera for a lot more time than I actually photograph with it. A bit more time fiddling with the movements is a more-than-acceptable trade-off IM-HO.

I make "cityscapes" often with a wooden field camera and bag bellows. I either walk or bicycle around the city, with the camera kit in a wheeled backpack and tripod in my hand (or strapped onto the bike rack). My current favorite city camera, the Wista SW (basically a DX with interchangeable bellows) weighs 1.5 kg, just over three pounds. There's no way I would double that just to get a geared movement or two.

Same with my field kit: Wista DX that is even a bit lighter. I own an Arca Swiss and a Zone VI (late model) wooden folder. Neither of them get much use in the field due to their weight, bulk and lack of portability.

My advice would be to spend a bit of time getting better at fiddling with the non-geared camera movements. I apply rise, tilts and swings in the field often, especially in the city when I'm shooting architecture, and don't have an issue with time at all...

Here's my SW in action: Front rise at max, bed pointed up and standards tilted vertical to get extra rise to get verticals parallel plus swings and shifts applied to get horizontal lines parallel in the image. Even this extreme use of movements was easily done without geared movements. (My trusty Wide-Field Ektar 135mm is in action here too, more than enough coverage even for this.)


192367

Best,

Doremus

[Pere Casals]

How much weight do you think it would save?
Are you talking about just removing the RF housing or completely gutting the focusing mechanism.
All out, if one never uses the RF, if one uses many lenses then the rf has less sense...

If one uses mostly a single lens and he does not hike, then rf is fantastic...

[Bob Salomon]

All out, if one never uses the RF, if one uses many lenses then the rf has less sense...

If one uses mostly a single lens and he does not hike, then rf is fantastic...

If you tear the RF out you seriously reduce the camera’s value!

The RF can be cam coupled for every focal length from 72mm to 360mm except for Imagons.
You can easily have infinity stops for every lens on the camera bed at the same time and the focus stage holds 3 focus scales and you can have lots of focus stages as they just simply slide in and out.
So the RF is useable with each focal length, in or out of the studio.

But the question I asked you was how much weight would be saved?

[Pere Casals]

If you tear the RF out you seriously reduce the camera’s value!

But the question I asked you was how much weight would be saved?

I don't know how much weight, but it's clear that some remarkable photographers like John Sexton removed the range finder and covered the opening with a plate. I guess that it can be assembled again if necessary.

Of course it's a fantastic range finder, sure that those that removed it had not problem with it, just it was not useful for their shooting style, I guess.

[Bob Salomon]

I don't know how much weight, but it's clear that some remarkable photographers like John Sexton removed the range finder and covered the opening with a plate. I guess that it can be assembled again if necessary.

Of course it's a fantastic range finder, sure that those that removed it had not problem with it, just it was not useful for their shooting style, I guess.

Are you talking about John’s Linhof Master Technika 2000? That didn’t have a rangefinder, but the older Technika that he traded into Glazers Camera for it did have one.
Or are you referring to his 57 Super Technika V?

[Pere Casals]

Are you talking about John’s Linhof Master Technika 2000? That didn’t have a rangefinder, but the older Technika that he traded into Glazers Camera for it did have one.
Or are you referring to his 57 Super Technika V?

The one he had by around 1998... he appears in some photographs with the one that has the plating covering the opening...

[Bob Salomon]

The one he had by around 1998... he appears in some photographs with the one that has the plating covering the opening...

The 2000 and 3000 both have a plate over the opening as do earlier Technika models. On those Super Technika had the rangefinder and Technikas came without one.

However, what do you think is the weight savings? Don’t forget, you have to add the weight of the plate.

To give you a hint, there is a 50 gram difference in weight between a Master Technika Classic with RF and a Master Technika 3000 without one.

[David Lindquist]

See a ways down the page in this 2000 interview with John Sexton: http://www.photocriticism.com/members/archivetexts/photointerviews/sexton/sextoninterview1.html

Says he bought his first Linhof (Technika) used in 1980, among other things took off the RF. Then 4-5 years later sold this to a friend. Then bought a new Linhof in Germany which he traded in "about three years ago" (i.e. about 1997) on an updated model (presumably the Master Technika 2000?)

David

[Mark Darragh]

Have a look at the Arca-Swiss Universalis 4x5.

The Universalis cameras have geared tilt and rise/fall on the front standard, with friction swing. Geared rise/fall and shift on the rear standard. Depending on how you configure it, weight-wise it will be about 1 kg lighter than an equivalent F-Line. The system is modular and fully compatible with all other current A-S equipment.

I've hiked mine on trips up to 10 days in duration. It's a joy to use compared to the brilliant but fiddly Toho FC-45X I normally take on mulitday trips. It's also very quick and simple to set up.


I have heard a rumour that Arca-Swiss may also have available an M-Line 2 4x5 based on their DSLR and MF cameras. All the available movements on the M-Line 2 are geared and the camera is considerably lighter the the M Line version. I'm sure Rod Klukas at Arca-Swiss America would be more than happy to fill you in on what they have available.

All the best

[Bob Salomon]

See a ways down the page in this 2000 interview with John Sexton: http://www.photocriticism.com/members/archivetexts/photointerviews/sexton/sextoninterview1.html

Says he bought his first Linhof (Technika) used in 1980, among other things took off the RF. Then 4-5 years later sold this to a friend. Then bought a new Linhof in Germany which he traded in "about three years ago" (i.e. about 1997) on an updated model (presumably the Master Technika 2000?)

David

Correct.

He traded his old one to Glazers and had a signed, engraved, plaque mounted to it to attest that it was his old camera.

[LabRat]

Correct.

He traded his old one to Glazers and had a signed, engraved, plaque mounted to it to attest that it was his old camera.

I guess that helps resale value... ;-)

Steve K

[Bob Salomon]

I guess that helps resale value... ;-)

Steve K

That was the reason to get Glazers interested. If I remember correctly John then got the first 2000 in the USA.

[David Lindquist]

Correct.

He traded his old one to Glazers and had a signed, engraved, plaque mounted to it to attest that it was his old camera.

In 2010 I traded in my 4 x 5 Deardorff Special (bought new in 1969 shortly after I got out of the Army) for a Master Technika 3000 at Camera West, Walnut Creek. Guess a signed and engraved plaque from me wouldn't have had much juice.:)

David

[Corran]

I have a Chamonix 4x5 and a couple Linhofs (IV and Master).

Over the years with my Chamonix and thousands of sheets/rolls of film, I have had shots ruined by, in no particular order: focus drift, either from heavy lenses or the force of inserting a film holder as there is no focus lock, imprecise neutral positions of the movements causing a slight left/right tilt making edges go out of focus, especially with ultrawides, imprecise focusing from bad fresnel (this was corrected in later versions and I removed my fresnel), accidental forward tilt at "zero" position due to one or more of the front standard mounting holes being tilted (this may be my fault after hauling this cameras for hundreds of miles and regularly knocking it about in use), etc.

Lately I've been shooting with my Master Technika 4x5 and enjoying not having to triple-check movements being zeroed-out, and I also like the focus lock and click-stops for tilt, though I certainly have quibbles, such as the massive amount of tilt needed to get over that click-stop and the difficulty in using wideangle lenses. Sure, the Technika is a whopping 3.5 pounds heavier. I could carry two Chamonixs at that point. But for hikes of only 3-5 miles and not up a mountain it's not that bad. About as bad as my 8x10. As long as I don't overstuff my pack with 4 Grafmatics / 24 sheets of film (I really don't need that many usually) or all the extra stuff I tend to want to bring it's fine. I probably should in time buy another Chamonix, having about slap worn this one out, but if you want more overall precision along with the good packability of a clamshell design, the Linhof is certainly a great option.

Personally I don't like monorails for general usage, so I've ignored those options. Still use my Toyo GII 4x5 on occasion for architecture but of course that thing is double even the Linhof's weight!!

Just some opinions from someone who actually regularly hikes with my LF cameras and shoots a lot of film.

[Pere Casals]

The 2000 and 3000 both have a plate over the opening as do earlier Technika models. On those Super Technika had the rangefinder and Technikas came without one.

However, what do you think is the weight savings? Don’t forget, you have to add the weight of the plate.

To give you a hint, there is a 50 gram difference in weight between a Master Technika Classic with RF and a Master Technika 3000 without one.

A 30cm2 x 2mm alluminium plate weights 17gr, would the range finder plus the cams etc weight 250 gr? just speculating...

I guess a photographer not wanting the range finder may have other reasons to remove it beyond weight. He may keep it pristine inside a box, then the camera gets a bit smaller, perhaps it's a bit more convenient to deploy and operate.

I only had a technika in my hands, never shot with it. My impression was that most of the times a Pro would be happy to haul the additional weigth. IMHO 4x5 format IQ is not a massive overkill as with 5x7 and 8x10, so a precission job may be important. I insist, I've never shot one, but when I had one in my hands I guessed why some Pros used it as their workhorse.

[gary mulder]

My Master Technika with range finder weights 2826 gr. After stripping the range finder 2510 gr.

[afxstudio]

I see my question stirred many souls. I'm coming from an Intrepid mk3, which is not a bad camera overall but it certainly is not the most accurate tool on the market. I tend to spend way too much time fiddling with the knobs and whatnot - unfortunately I also often find myself in situations where I'm not totally relaxed and free to take all the time I want. Maybe a more polished camera like the Chamonix will suffice, I honestly never tried any other camera other than the one I have. I shoot on the field, landscapes basically, so if you say geared movements would cause more problems than they solve, I trust your expertise.

For Corran: which Chamonix is that? Is it really that bad? What could I expect from the F2? Also that startrail print on your IG profile is nice.

P.S. I don't want to sound gear-centric, given also my limited experience with LFP. The upgrade may take place more than one year from now, it's not a rushed thing.

[Corran]

My Chamonix is the very first model, the N-1. I guess they still make it but the F model is a slight upgrade. A friend has one and I have seen how it works. It's a little better for putting the rear standard in place. I am sure overall it might be a tad better but it still is not going to be a Linhof.

Regardless, the best way to learn is to use the camera. If you find a used camera, likely you can resell it for relatively close to what you bought it for. This goes for most 4x5 cameras. So if you don't get along, you won't be out much after reselling it on. I went through 4 cameras before getting my Chamonix, and have continued to try different cameras since.

And, thanks for the compliment!

[Bernice Loui]

+10..........

Learning the basic camera skills is only the beginning. Once enough camera skills have been gained comes trying out a variety of cameras to find the one that fits your image making needs and skills best. There is definitely a image maker-camera feel relationship here. Do know as your camera skills and image making needs change so will your demands on camera, lenses, film and the entire system. Know this is always a trade off with no ideal camera-lens-system that meets all demands of the image maker. This is why those who have been at this LF stuff often have several cameras and more.



Bernice

[Chuck Pere]

Wisner made (well at least had a catalog page) a Pocket Expedition with geared movements. 4x5 was 3.6 lbs. Geared front axis tilt and rise and fall. Plus rear geared axis tilt.

[Alan Gales]

Sinar F. "F" is for field right? ;)

I think Ken Lee has your answer in post #3. Get a monorail camera for when you want geared movements and take your field camera along when you do a lot of hiking.

[Peter De Smidt]

My experience with a Chamonix mirrors Bryan's. I found it much more fiddly to use, in particular making sure all parts lined up properly, than my Toyo AX. Sure, for the most part if one has the time, it's not a big deal, but sometimes conditions are unfavorable, speed is needed.....This doesn't mean they're bad cameras, it just a trade-of between ease of use and weight. That trade off might get much more compelling at larger camera sizes.

[neil poulsen]

I sure like my Arca Swiss with front geared rise. (See below.) From my perspective, it's the front geared rise that makes a camera so nice to use. No klutzy, two handed operations, while one is trying to stay under a dark cloth.

https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?36782-Show-off-your-Large-Format-camera!&p=1453088&highlight=arca#post1453088

My camera has a 171mm rear format carrier and a 6x9 Metric front format carrier with geared rise. The problem with combining an Arca 4x5 rear with the Arca 6x9 front, is that one has to raise the front about 35mm just to be on axis with the rear. That leaves only about 25mm for rise, which isn't sufficient. Of course, one can turn the camera on its side or use front and rear tilt to achieve greater "rise". But, both of these options are inconvenient.

So to overcome this difficulty, my camera has a Metric front function carrier, which is taller than the standard F function carrier, and an older "A" (axis tilt) rear function carrier, which is shorter than the standard F function carrier. The end result of this combination, is that my camera is capable of about 50mm of rise. It also means that I have no rear tilt. But for me, front tilt is sufficient.

I happen to prefer the 171mm rear, 4x5 format frame to the current 141mm, 4x5 format frame. But, I have an unconfirmed theory that, due to the smaller size of the 141mm format frame, if one combines the 6x9 Metric front standard (6x9 Metric format frame and Metric function carrier), with the non-Metric 4x5 rear standard (4x5 F format frame and F function carrier), that one will have at least 50mm of rise, as well as a lighter weight camera. Note that geared rise on the rear function carrier isn't really needed. If fall is needed, one can raise the rear using two hands to some nominal level, and then optimize the overall fall under the dark cloth using the geared front rise. With the configuration that I'm suggesting above, one will also have geared front shift. But, I rarely use this feature.

Note that this configuration also packs into a relatively small space.

I suggest the above combination, because it works so well. I realize that cost can be a problem. (It wasn't for me, because over the years, I've pounced on some very good deals.) But, at least what I've suggested is an option with what is available today.

[Drew Wiley]

I don't care much for Arca's marketing exaggeration. They no doubt make a precise product. But when they claim "Grandpa's 8x10 and 450 lens allowed for an inch of slop" ... Well, I wouldn't tolerate even 1mm of slop in my 8x10. Gearing is just a convenience at best, other than for the focus. I don't know what all the fuss is about, at least in a large format context.

[Alan Gales]

Gearing is just a convenience at best, other than for the focus. I don't know what all the fuss is about, at least in a large format context.

I'd agree with that. I've bought and sold many Cambo and Calumet monorails that used friction movements. The friction movements worked fine. I owned a Sinar P with geared movements. Using those geared movements was really enjoyable but they made the camera heavier. Nice for a studio camera but not so nice for backpacking. Like Ken says in post #3, he doesn't take his Sinar P far from the car. ;)

[Luis-F-S]

Sinar F. "F" is for field right? ;)

I think Ken Lee has your answer in post #3. Get a monorail camera for when you want geared movements and take your field camera along when you do a lot of hiking.

+1

[Drew Wiley]

I have geared Sinar P components. They would be an outright disadvantage in the field - significantly greater weight mandating more solid tripod support, and risk of grit or sand getting into the gearing - and none of this would give me a bit better accuracy in the actual images than using my much lighter Sinar F or Norma components. Wouldn't even save much time doing adjustments or focus, if any. I understand the popularity of all that gearing in image-mass-production studio environments. I happen to prefer monorails in the field, and have backpacked thousand of miles will non-geared Sinars. But I also shoot 4x5 and 8x10 folders when pack space is limited, or when lighter cumulative weight is a priority, as it seems to be more and more often as I drift into my 70's. Einstein got it all wrong. Gravity increases with time.

[Alan Gales]

I have geared Sinar P components. They would be an outright disadvantage in the field - significantly greater weight mandating more solid tripod support, and risk of grit or sand getting into the gearing - and none of this would give me a bit better accuracy in the actual images than using my much lighter Sinar F or Norma components. Wouldn't even save much time doing adjustments or focus, if any. I understand the popularity of all that gearing in image-mass-production studio environments. I happen to prefer monorails in the field, and have backpacked thousand of miles will non-geared Sinars. But I also shoot 4x5 and 8x10 folders when pack space is limited, or when lighter cumulative weight is a priority, as it seems to be more and more often as I drift into my 70's. Einstein got it all wrong. Gravity increases with time.

I used to have relatives in and just above the Missouri bootheel. Heard of the Mason Dixon line? It was a great place to shoot old barns and small towns but I haven't been down there in a long time. The soil there is really sandy and when the wind blows it picks it up from the flat farmland. Sandy places like that are not good for geared movements.

Einstein may have been plenty smart but he wasn't perfect. ;)

[Drew Wiley]

Try a geared camera in a place like Death Valley in the spring, when its windy blowing fine clays, salt, Twenty Mule Team Borax, and just about every kind of abrasive, corrosive mineral sand nobody has otherwise even heard of.

[Greg]

I have geared Sinar P components. They would be an outright disadvantage in the field - significantly greater weight mandating more solid tripod support, and risk of grit or sand getting into the gearing - and none of this would give me a bit better accuracy in the actual images than using my much lighter Sinar F or Norma components. Wouldn't even save much time doing adjustments or focus, if any. I understand the popularity of all that gearing in image-mass-production studio environments. I happen to prefer monorails in the field, and have backpacked thousand of miles will non-geared Sinars. But I also shoot 4x5 and 8x10 folders when pack space is limited, or when lighter cumulative weight is a priority, as it seems to be more and more often as I drift into my 70's. Einstein got it all wrong. Gravity increases with time.

Agree with you 100%. About 20 years ago up for auction was a 4x5 Sinar Norma which had been in a studio fire and was completely covered with soot. On close inspection the picture of is noticed that the bellows looked fine. I had the single opening bid and won the camera for less than the shipping costs. I was taking a big chance. Camera arrived and it did look horrendous. Took it completely apart, cleaned every piece, lubed it (can't remember exactly), and reassembled it. Bellows was quite dried out so replaced it with a newer one. Have used the camera thousands of times since then under all types of conditions, and it has never failed me to this day. On the other hand, used a Sinar P on a windy beach in Connecticut over the course of a few days. Had to send the camera back to Sinar to have it cleaned. Took little to mess up/clog up the gears.