Poll: Stop Bath

[Two23]

B&W processing needs a stop bath after the developer. Which do you use? Water? Pre-made acid stop (e.g Ilfostop,)? Or something home made? I'm trying to make my first poll!:D



Kent in SD

[Kiwi7475]

Depends on the film and developer. For example I will use Kodak stop bath with TMX developed with D-76, but just water with FP4+ developed with PMK.
I don’t think there’s a one-size-fits-all.

[ic-racer]

Kodak branded glacial acetic.

[pepeguitarra]

I used ilfostop. However, I have used just water, and in one occasion, I used water with two drops of vinegar (at 4%).

[Oren Grad]

I've been using Kodak Indicator Stop since... forever.

[Rainymac]

I have used Fomacitro for some years but once my current supply runs out I plan to mix stop bath from citric acid.

[Corran]

Water for film, a few ounces of 100% acetic acid in a tray of water for paper. No issues.

[Leigh]

I've been using Kodak Indicator Stop since... forever.
So have I, since a few years before forever.

- Leigh

[Oren Grad]

So have I, since a few years before forever.

:)

[tgtaylor]

I use plain water for film and home made 1.5% citric acid for paper.

Thomas

[koraks]

Either acetic acid (film), citric acid or even a mix of citric and tartaric acid (paper). Sulphuric acid for ECN2 film. I've used plain water on occasion for film as well. Guess what...it all works.

[Jim Noel]

Plain water on most films and papers for over 50 years. There are fast developing films which I only develop by inspection and occasionally use citric acid.

[Tin Can]

Tap water for film or glass plate

Tap water with weak citric acid for paper

Film water stop changed very often

Ditto with paper

[Pere Casals]

I use plain water for film and home made 1.5% citric acid for paper.

Thomas

+1 , IMHO this is the good way.

____________________

Plain water stops film development in some 30s, while an acid stop bath does it in some 15s, so simply with water stop development should be some seconds shorter, in practice less than 15 shorter because water soon slows down delopment, in practice we don't see a difference with same development time.


Another interesting thing is that an acid stop bath does not protect an alkaline fixer. As water stop bath is dumped every time, and film can be washed several times then we don't add strange chem to the fixer, while a very reused stop bath accumulates used developer, perhaps this has little importance, but water bath is cleaner.


As I fix sheets in trays lights open I considered safer to use an acid stop bath, but I found that can open lights 40s after the developed sheet has been moved to a water tray.


For paper it's different, development can be reactivated so an acid bath is safer... and citric ácid is the good one, "Over time, acetic fumes can cause damage to the delicate membrane of the sinuses".

[Ironage]

For safety sake, and to help keep the fixer good I use the Sprint System. It is formulated to indicate when both the stop and the fix are exhausted.

[Peter Lewin]

For film, follow the directions for the developer you use. I use pyro developers, PMK and now mostly Pyrocat, and they both recommend a plain water stop, followed by alkaline fixer. For prints, I use Ilford stop bath mixed a bit less than half strength, again as recommended when using alkaline fixers.

[Fred L]

water stop for film, citric acid for fiber prints.

[Doremus Scudder]

I've been using Kodak Indicator Stop since... forever.

Me too. I just finished a bottle that I bought more than 20 years ago. I have a couple more, so that should last me a while still. No need for anything else.

Doremus

[Graham Patterson]

If you are using an alkali fixer, an acid stop bath is not a good idea. So this poll is only valid for acid fixers as it stands.

I used to use an indicator stop bath most of the time with acid fixer.

[wclark5179]

I see I have a bottle of formulary stop bath stock.

Thought I had some Kodak as well but maybe I used it up.

[Pere Casals]

If you are using an alkali fixer, an acid stop bath is not a good idea. So this poll is only valid for acid fixers as it stands.

I used to use an indicator stop bath most of the time with acid fixer.

+1

"No acid stop bath is required when using alkali fixer. In order to preserve the alkalinity of the fixer, acid stop bath should not be used."

If wanting the advantages alkali fixers have... then no acid stop bath !

[Duolab123]

Water isn't a stop bath.

[Pere Casals]

Water isn't a stop bath.

Water is an stop bath because it stops development totally, in about 30s.

[bob carnie]

Water is an stop bath because it stops development totally, in about 30s.

30 seconds a lot can happen...I print solarization and lith prints and the stop has to be immediate therefore I use acid stop.

[interneg]

Water is an stop bath because it stops development totally, in about 30s.

Which is way too slow with most developers. Acid stop works in a few seconds - if 30s leeway is ok in your process, then water might be ok, but it runs the risk of unevenness or streaks.

[Pere Casals]

Which is way too slow with most developers. Acid stops work in a few seconds - if 30s leeway is ok in your process, then water might be ok, but it runs the risk of unevenness or streaks.

Acid stop bath totally stops film in 15s, water totally stops in 30.

...but in practice with plain water you don't have 15 seconds more additional effective development than with acid bath, you only have a fraction of that.

this is because as pH changes inside the emulsion (because of developer dilution in water) development is slowed a lot, so you won't notice a difference.

Even in the case that development was 15s longer in the water stop bath... it would be easy shortening development time by those 15s, but it's not necessary.

[bob carnie]

From a practical working point of view... If I put a print any process in water it will continue developing out...

If I put a print in acid stop it will stop dead in its track.. experience of thousand's of lith and solarization prints tell me this to be a fact in my darkroom.

[interneg]

Acid stop bath totally stops film in 15s, water totally stops in 30.

...but in practice with plain water you don't have 15 seconds more additional effective development than with acid bath, you only have a fraction of that.

this is because as pH changes inside the emulsion (because of developer dilution in water) development is slowed a lot, so you won't notice a difference.

Even in the case that development was 15s longer in the water stop bath... it would be easy shortening development time by those 15s, but it's not necessary.

Every competent test I have seen (and my own experience) has shown that, pretty much as Bob says, acid stop works faster and more consistently, especially in large even toned areas. If there was a reason to recommend anything other than an acid stop, the manufacturers would do so.

Acid stops are also reported to be more effective than water when dealing with metol/ amine based developers & remember that films have relatively long developing times compared to papers & a stop matters much more so when the process is an order of magnitude faster.

[Pere Casals]

From a practical working point of view... If I put a print any process in water it will continue developing out...

If I put a print in acid stop it will stop dead in its track.. experience of thousand's of lith and solarization prints tell me this to be a fact in my darkroom.


Bob, prints are different than film... the baryted layer and prehaps the fiber may keep a lot of developer, it takes a lot to wash a FB print...




Every competent test I have seen (and my own experience) has shown that, pretty much as Bob says, acid stop works faster and more consistently, especially in large even toned areas. If there was a reason to recommend anything other than an acid stop, the manufacturers would do so.

Acid stops are also reported to be more effective than water when dealing with metol/ amine based developers & remember that films have relatively long developing times compared to papers & a stop matters much more so when the process is an order of magnitude faster.


Yes... for paper citric, I agree. For film water is perfect...

[bob carnie]

Pere

I thought this topic was about printing ,, At least that is what I am talking about... some people use water as a stop for paper, I happen to not be one of them for the reasons stated.. I want to STOP the development.

I am not talking about washing a print .. or fixing a print .. but am talking about Stopping a print...

Bob

[interneg]

So much of this could be avoided if people RTFM - and that means use a stop bath unless there is exceptional and clear evidence to the contrary. It would probably improve many people's printing because at least their results would be consistent print to print...

[Corran]

I thought this thread was about film, though I and others mentioned a stop bath for printing (obviously).

For development times in the ~10 minute area or more, I fail to see how a water stop having a few extra seconds of development matters or could possibly have ill effects. I haven't used a stop bath for film in forever. I use Ilford Hypam for fixer and turn on the lights pretty much right after the film goes in it.

[Pere Casals]

that means use a stop bath unless there is exceptional and clear evidence to the contrary. It would probably improve many people's printing because at least their results would be consistent print to print...

Many times silver gelatin prints are developed to completion, so stopping soon or later it's irrelevant, if you don't develop to completion for some reason then it's different. Also if toning we may need an acid stop bath.

Also it should be noted that amidol may cause stains if an acetic acid stop bath is used, no problem with citric.

[Two23]

For development times in the ~10 minute area or more, I fail to see how a water stop having a few extra seconds of development matters or could possibly have ill effects. I haven't used a stop bath for film in forever. I use Ilford Hypam for fixer and turn on the lights pretty much right after the film goes in it.

That's what I needed to hear.:) I do intend to switch to Hypam since the PF4 fumes bother me some when doing tray processing.


Kent in SD

[Bob Salomon]

At photo school in the USAF one day they sent us to the kitchen to get vinegar to use when they said that they were out of stop bath! Talk about a smelly darkroom!

[interneg]

Many times silver gelatin prints are developed to completion, so stopping soon or later it's irrelevant, if you don't develop to completion for some reason then it's different. Also if toning we may need an acid stop bath.

'Completion' is a very flexible word. Many papers will continue to change after 2-3 minutes & potentially up to 6 minutes. It's often a useful behaviour to be able to exploit, but it makes a stopbath necessary for print consistency.
And then you contradict yourself by claiming that subsequent toning demands the use of a stopbath - which isn't the case (the print has been fixed by then!) - in reality, it's a question of making sure that your print isn't so acidic after fixing that it stains in the selenium toner.



Also it should be noted that amidol may cause stains if an acetic acid stop bath is used, no problem with citric.

Which is covered by the phrase exceptional and clear evidence to the contrary

The thing no one has picked up on is Kodak's clear instructions as to stopbath strength for X-Ray & graphic arts films.

[Duolab123]

Water is an stop bath because it stops development totally, in about 30s.

The water is stop bath paradox: Does the water stop the development, or is it slowed, dramatically, and aided by dissolved oxygen destroying the developing agent?

We may never know! :cool:

[Duolab123]

I knew with those 4 little words I would set off nerd wars.

[Pere Casals]

The water is stop bath paradox: Does the water stop the development, or is it slowed, dramatically, and aided by dissolved oxygen destroying the developing agent?

We may never know! :cool:

Water stop bath stops development completely in some 30s.

In the tetenal E-6 process, for example, 1st developer is a critical BW developer, and development is stopped by a water rinse... No problem.

[Mark Sawyer]

In my teaching years, we had to go from Kodak Indicator to a citric acid stop bath. My students kept handing the bottle of concentrate to the newbies an telling them, "Smell this! It smells like strawberries!"

[Duolab123]

Water stop bath stops development completely in some 30s.

In the tetenal E-6 process, for example, 1st developer is a critical BW developer, and development is stopped by a water rinse... No problem.

Tetenal is an amateur kit. The original E6 process included a stop bath. Kodak made slight modification to the 1st developer to allow for water to follow 1st developer.

I would just as soon see a stop bath especially with E-6. C-41 does the same thing, to double the film speed, all it takes is going from 3 min 15 sec to 3 min and 45 sec.

30 seconds additional time in E6 1st developer (not water) will have a profound effect.

For black and white negatives, it's no big deal. I just like FTFM. :-)

[Pere Casals]

Tetenal is an amateur kit.

Fuji Hunt E-6 also uses a water stop bath after first developer...




30 seconds additional time in E6 1st developer (not water) will have a profound effect.


I's not 30s additional, perhaps its 5 to 10 seconds of effective development time difference,

this is because acid stop also needs 15s and because the water stop slows down development very soon.

Anyway the difference can always be compensated by shortening development time accordingly.


If you calibrate BW film speed of your processing then all factors like agitation, your thermometer error, filling time and water bath are included, so you take the right curve.

Agitation alone will have a greater effect than acid vs plain water...




For black and white negatives, it's no big deal. I just like FTFM. :-)

For BW negatives never an effect, if you calibrate. If you don't calibrate then you have larger effects from agitation, etc

The manual? What manual? E-6 is made with no acid bath, and for BW you are free to do what you want....

[Duolab123]

Fuji Hunt E-6 also uses a water stop bath after first developer...






I's not 30s additional, perhaps its 5 to 10 seconds of effective development time difference,

this is because acid stop also needs 15s and because the water stop slows down development very soon.

Anyway the difference can always be compensated by shortening development time accordingly.


If you calibrate BW film speed of your processing then all factors like agitation, your thermometer error, filling time and water bath are included, so you take the right curve.

Agitation alone will have a greater effect than acid vs plain water...





For BW negatives never an effect, if you calibrate. If you don't calibrate then you have larger effects from agitation, etc

The manual? What manual? E-6 is made with no acid bath, and for BW you are free to do what you want....

You are correct in everything you say. But I'm still using stop bath. :o

[Duolab123]

You are correct in everything you say. But I'm still using stop bath. :o

Not with E6 that would be crazy. Peace

[Pere Casals]

You are correct in everything you say. But I'm still using stop bath. :o

This is perfectly fine, of course...

[interneg]

The original E6 process included a stop bath. Kodak made slight modification to the 1st developer to allow for water to follow 1st developer.

And this is the most important point - the process was properly modified to make this work. I really don't have the time, inclination or need to fiddle around with process coefficients - and anyway, I have high enough throughput that consistency of quality matters, so I use indicator stop & carefully monitored fix for BW neg & print processes. Relative to the work that goes through, the chemicals are very cheap.

[Pere Casals]

And this is the most important point - the process was properly modified to make this work.

An E-6 process it's easier to design if water stop bath is used. An acid stop bath adds acid to the Reversal bath that is transported by the wet film, which it has to be a problem in a replenished systems as you add acid each time you process new film. If you have to rinse the acid with water then better directly stopping with the water itself.



I really don't have the time, inclination or need to fiddle around with process coefficients

No need, if one day you switch to plain water for film you would notice absolutely nothing.

[interneg]

An E-6 process it's easier to design if water stop bath is used. An acid stop bath adds acid to the Reversal bath that is transported by the wet film, which it has to be a problem in a replenished systems as you add acid each time you process new film. If you have to rinse the acid with water then better directly stopping with the water itself.

The reversal bath is acidic.




No need, if one day you switch to plain water for film you would notice absolutely nothing.

You would, your fixer will exhaust faster. This is a large part of why Ilford strongly recommend a stop bath (for just 10s) to minimise developer carry over. It may not be an issue if you process a few sheets intermittently, but if you have a decent throughput, the less chemicals pointlessly wasted the better.

[Pere Casals]

The reversal bath is acidic.

Anyway throwing acetic acid in the E-6 reversal bath is something wrong. And something very wrong if replenishing, because of accumulation.




You would, your fixer will exhaust faster.

Why? Today people normally use rapid fixers that are alkaline, this is the most sold fixer type by an ample margin. If you throw Acid stop bath into the alkaline fixer this is when you damage it, water bath is better.


__________________________________


Interneg, there is no problem in using an acid stop bath for bw if you like it, but plain water works also perfectly, specially for film.

[Duolab123]

Anyway throwing acetic acid in the E-6 reversal bath is something wrong. And something very wrong if replenishing, because of accumulation.





Why? Today people normally use rapid fixers that are alkaline, this is the most sold fixer type by an ample margin. If you throw Acid stop bath into the alkaline fixer this is when you damage it, water bath is better.


__________________________________


Interneg, there is no problem in using an acid stop bath for bw if you like it, but plain water works also perfectly, specially for film.

I agree no need to fool with stop bath with E6. I remember in high school going to a lecture on film development by the H&W Control film and developer guys. I remember two things clearly. Keep wet time to a minimum, keep temperature absolutely constant, and don't use stop bath because it causes microscopic explosions in the emulsion. OK THAT'S THREE THINGS. All I have ever really followed is the temperature thing.
These guys had 16 x 20 prints, allegedly made from 35mm negatives with their fancy film that were stunning.

[interneg]

don't use stop bath because it causes microscopic explosions in the emulsion

Not since the 1950's and even then only with carbonate containing developers. Modern hardening techniques prevent this. This has been well discussed on Photrio - Ron Mowrey explained the mechanisms of how it happened & how it was cured.

[interneg]

Anyway throwing acetic acid in the E-6 reversal bath is something wrong. And something very wrong if replenishing, because of accumulation.

You really don't understand the why's or how's of E-6...

I'd suggest taking time to thoroughly read and understand Fuji TB E6 E15 and Kodak Z-119, paying attention to the pH of each step and where carryover is needed or isn't allowed and then carefully read what is being said by Ron Mowrey here (https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/same-stop-bath-for-first-dev-and-colour-dev-e6.167865/#post-2184262) before going any further.




Why? Today people normally use rapid fixers that are alkaline, this is the most sold fixer type by an ample margin. If you throw Acid stop bath into the alkaline fixer this is when you damage it, water bath is better.


__________________________________


Interneg, there is no problem in using an acid stop bath for bw if you like it, but plain water works also perfectly, specially for film.

Again, most of this is at best irrelevant, at worst outright wrong. No, you won't damage current film with an acid stop and an alkaline fix. You can damage Foma films with C-41 fixer, but that's blistering caused by the KSCN on less well hardened emulsion. On other films it is arguably the best fixer on the market, it gets the residual dyes out very well.

Finally, most fixes sold today are either near neutral (C-41/ E-6) or slightly acid rapid fixes. A true alkaline fix can be pretty smelly.

If your fixer is so poorly buffered that it can't handle a very low degree of carryover, then get one of the many fixers that can! If you need consistency without worrying about it, use the stopbath. You'll probably get away without it with low activity developers, but why take pointless risks? Take risks with your art, not with parts of your process that should be invisible.

[Pere Casals]

Popular TF-4 has alkaline 8.5 pH, ilford Rapid Fixer has 5.5 pH acidic.

Anyway you don't carry developer to fixer if using stop water bath, because you dump the water bath so you have no developer accumulation. You only carry developer if using no bath in the middle.

C-41 and E-6 I remember do not use acid stop bath after BW developer, some have a plain water rinse

Color Paper RA-4 (Fuji Hunt) uses acetic acid stop bath.

[Duolab123]

Popular TF-4 has alkaline 8.5 pH, ilford Rapid Fixer has 5.5 pH acidic.

Anyway you don't carry developer to fixer if using stop water bath, because you dump the water bath so you have no developer accumulation. You only carry developer if using no bath in the middle.

C-41 and E-6 I remember do not use acid stop bath after BW developer, some have a plain water rinse

Color Paper RA-4 (Fuji Hunt) uses acetic acid stop bath.

I've always used stop bath with RA-4 it helps prevent staining. The minilabs don't they go straight from developer into the Blix.

Modern film and RC paper has such thin and prehardened emulsions it's hard to believe stop bath would be needed vs. a good water rinse. Fiber base paper is a different story.

RA-4 paper develops to completion in about 45 seconds at 100F, I've intentionally over developed color negative paper, no discernable difference between 90 seconds and 2 and a half minutes.

[Joe O'Hara]

I like 1.5% citric acid solution. Odorless, and food suppliers on the internet sell it cheap. I never had a problem using
acid fixer with Kodak film and I've been doing this a long time.

I use an alkaline (TF3) fixer for prints, but since I do two-bath fixing, the first (used) fixer takes the beating from the
stop, inasmuch as that is an issue. The used bath always gets dumped at the end of the session no matter how few prints I make.

I can't recommend trying to use water as a stop when printing on fiber paper, if you're using an alkaline fixer. Unless you're willing
to rinse it in running water for a minute and a half you're going to get hydroquinone stains sooner or later. Using citric acid solved
that problem for good.

[Steven Ruttenberg]

I use water and branded.

[axs810]

I use Kodak Indicator Stop Bath for film and prints.