Rayments Patent camera - who has one? - need some measures

[Ron (Netherlands)]

Recently I acquired a Perken, Son & Rayment camera. It is the so called Rayment's Patent camera; this one is half plate. The camera is however not complete: it is missing a lensboard and a lens, and further its little patent shield.
It shouldn't be a problem to replicate the patent shield since there are some photo's of it on the internet. However, the lens board is quite a distinguishable part of this camera and I therefore would like to replicate an original as much as practicably possible. To be able to do that I would need exact measures and matching wood.

Regarding the measures I would like to ask members who have such a camera, if they could:
1. provide measures of the lensboard (width, height, thickness, and especially measures of the curved line at the upper right corner);
2. to trace the outline/bounders of the board on a piece of paper or perhaps make a scan on a flatbed scanner - with a ruler for the measures? and make a copy available (online?);
3. take the measures of the two breadboard ends of the board (the upper breadboard end has the curved line in it).

Concerning the wood: the camera and lensboard were made from Hunduran mahogany. If someone has a little piece available, I would be most interested of course.

Concerning a piece of brass hardware: since the lensboard is missing also the little brass plate on its top is missing. However this piece shouldn't be to hard to make out of a little piece of a brass plate.

Here is a picture of a comparable camera complete with board and lens:

https://www.flintsauctions.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/253-1024x1024.jpg

On the below camera the breadboards can be seen more clearly:

https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/images/3/37/Im201403PH-Perken1885.jpg

[Steven Tribe]

Don't have the Rayment.


http://www.earlyphotography.co.uk/site/entry_C418.html

Earlyphotography calls this fiddle-back mahogany (stipped) and I have had some about 10 years ago. I will try and locate it.
I am not sure the lens board is made from 1 or 3 pieces. The thickness would suggest just 1 piece. The brass attachment was pretty standard at this time so there may some around on scrap cameras.

Replacing the original lens is no problem (other than financial !) as it is a common Dallmeyer RR!

I found the fiddle-back. It is from post WW2 reproduction furniture so is just "Mahogany".
It is a reasonable match, but is veneered board which would be obvious with the curved edges!

[Havoc]

For the wood, look around at instrument builders. The Netherlands have some specialised suppliers for this like https://www.fijnhout.nl/hout-voor/hout-voor-muziekinstrumenten/

[Ron (Netherlands)]

Don't have the Rayment.


http://www.earlyphotography.co.uk/site/entry_C418.html

Earlyphotography calls this fiddle-back mahogany (stipped) and I have had some about 10 years ago. I will try and locate it.
I am not sure the lens board is made from 1 or 3 pieces. The thickness would suggest just 1 piece. The brass attachment was pretty standard at this time so there may some around on scrap cameras.

Replacing the original lens is no problem (other than financial !) as it is a common Dallmeyer RR!

I found the fiddle-back. It is from post WW2 reproduction furniture so is just "Mahogany".
It is a reasonable match, but is veneered board which would be obvious with the curved edges!

Thank you Steven for having a look at the board and for the wood. It is probably the most beautiful type of Mahogany - the light really reflects looking at the wood from different angles - almost like Teak :-)

Looking at the side of the board it seems there are three pieces put together each with a connecting spline. I've added a second picture in which the breadboards can be seen more clearly.
I'll have a look here in some specialized wood shops. However at one of the websites they stated they would not have/sell any Honduran mahogany due to import restrictions. Therefore I'll also have a look at second/third hand furniture stores.

Btw the one in the link you sent, is exactly like mine, so with more brass fittings than the one in the picture above.

[Ron (Netherlands)]

For the wood, look around at instrument builders. The Netherlands have some specialised suppliers for this like https://www.fijnhout.nl/hout-voor/hout-voor-muziekinstrumenten/

Thanks Havoc, one of their shops is close by, but they stated that they do not sell this particular wood anymore. As answered to Steven, I'll have a look in second furniture stores.

[Ron (Netherlands)]

Until now no good luck with seeking the correct measures. There was a nice member @ APUG who at first site seemed to have a comparable camera with lens panel, but it turned out his is quite a bit bigger i.e. full frame. In the meantime I've found a comparable camera which is in the collection of an Australian museum (https://collection.maas.museum/object/159463), so I've asked them if they're willing to provide the measures.
Further an English luthier (guitar builder) was willing to sell to me a very beautiful piece of Honduran Mahogany which matches the wood of my camera.

<edit>Got recently a message from the Australian museum that they couldn’t provide any measures. The message reads as follows:
"Thank you for getting in touch with the museum around your interest in our camera collection. Unfortunately the camera in question is on display at the moment and I have been informed that we are unable to access it to take your requested measurements until it comes off display. Which is not until June next year. The below listed website is a wonderful resource on early cameras and you may try reaching out to them to see if they know how you could access those measurements.
http://www.earlyphotography.co.uk/site/entry_C418.html"

However as you can read below, in the meantime a very nice fellow member provided me with all the measures needed....

[Drew Bedo]

Here in the USA there are many outlets for craft grade hardwo lumber in large and small pieces, "Wood Crafter" ias one.

Internationally, e-Bay often has listings for craft lumber. Take a look, maybe you will see something that will work for you.

I understand that you are looking for a non-cash transaction. Why not post in the wanted forum?

Matching wood will be one issue. A somewhat more difficult issue may be matching the finish.

[andrewch59]

Hi Ron, I have both the half plate and the full plate, I have just dragged them out of boxes, will send photo's of the half plate shortly192624192625

[andrewch59]

192633192634192635192636
overall length is 5 13/16, tongue is 1/8th of an inch wide and 1/16th thick, plate thickness is 3/16.

[andrewch59]

192637192638192639192640

[andrewch59]

192641
Hope these help, let me know if you need more info

[andrewch59]

On top of the camera is also a brass level with horizontal/vertical, still with fluid in them amazing! I am assuming you have the two ends top and bottom to slide the lens board into??

[Ron (Netherlands)]

On top of the camera is also a brass level with horizontal/vertical, still with fluid in them amazing! I am assuming you have the two ends top and bottom to slide the lens board into??

Many Thanks Andrew, at last someone who really has the camera and taken the measures! Indeed with your help measuring the outlines I think I can go further now.
I'll try to print your picture of the outline and of the back at the real measure in order to get an exact template.
I'll let you know how it goes.

...and yes, my camera has both the upper and lower two ends to slide in the panel. The ends made it possible to measure the thickness of the panel - about 6mm.

thanks again!
Ron

[Ron (Netherlands)]

Why not post in the wanted forum?

Matching wood will be one issue. A somewhat more difficult issue may be matching the finish.

Thank you Drew,

As posted before in the meantime I bought a very beautiful and perfectly matching piece of Honduran Mahogany from an English luthier. He has more wood if needed, so for now the wooden part is settled. I had looked at England specifically since there's the biggest chance finding old pieces of wood that would match this British made camera.
Matching the finish shouldn't be too difficult. My camera has quite a dull finish - shouldn't be too hard to replicate - I'll first try some finishes on a little remainder part of the wood....

[Ron (Netherlands)]

Hope these help, let me know if you need more info

Thank you Andrew, by a second look, it would help if you could also provide the height of the middle panel (A) and of the two breadboards (B & C):

https://kpmg0072.home.xs4all.nl/Rayment%20camera/attachment-2.jpg

I guess the height of the two breadboards are the same, but not sure....

thanks

[andrewch59]

No worries Ron, B AND C are 18mil each and A is 51mil
Just finished giving it a polish and found the serial number on the bottom 102

[andrewch59]

Hi Ron, just to add that the lens on the half plate, although I don't think it would be standard, is a Perken Son & Rayment euryscope 9x7 with waterhouse stops.

[Ron (Netherlands)]

Hi Ron, just to add that the lens on the half plate, although I don't think it would be standard, is a Perken Son & Rayment euryscope 9x7 with waterhouse stops.

thanks Andrew, I guess the 'standard' lens for the half plate was the Perken, Son & Rayment Rapid Euryscope 5 x 7 which would cover completely; a lens which I would like to get hold of after I have made the lens panel. Your lens seems to fit (and be made for) the full plate Rayment. Does your full plate carry a different Perken lens?

My camera seems to be a later make carrying nr 1461 and different from most Rayments on the internet, mine seems to have a bit more brass fittings.

Did your camera's come with original holders (mine came with one Perken holder) ?

btw after I have a detailed look at all your pictures I'll post all the measures as I understand them, just for double check. Further, I'll work with inches and fractions of inches, which might be more practical and accurate since it is a British camera. Luckily I can change my digital caliper from mm to inch.

[andrewch59]

I'm here to help, yes I think it came with three holders, and the original canvas bag. Does yours have two struts with brass framed cutout slot or just one??

[Ron (Netherlands)]

I'm here to help, yes I think it came with three holders, and the original canvas bag. Does yours have two struts with brass framed cutout slot or just one??

Just one.....I'll upload a picture asap
here you go...

As you can see, mine is also missing the patent label. A 'straight taken' (perpendicular?) photo of that part might help to replicate it as accurate as possible.

https://kpmg0072.home.xs4all.nl/Rayment%20camera/Rayments%20patent%20cam%201.jpg

detail of brass bindings:

https://kpmg0072.home.xs4all.nl/Rayment%20camera/Rayments%20patent%20cam%20detail.jpg

[Ron (Netherlands)]

Does yours have two struts with brass framed cutout slot or just one??

I thought only the full plate camera had two - does your half plate have also two?

[andrewch59]

No mine only has one, I thought perhaps it was a one off. Never really did a lot of research on the cameras. I collected perken son and rayment magic lanterns and the cameras were just to finish off the collection. Alas it got me into photography.

[Ron (Netherlands)]

Alas it got me into photography.

Lucky for me....
Just for comparison, could you show a picture of the plateholders that came with your cameras?

[andrewch59]

Here is the half plate:
192713192714192715

Unusual to have these two brass tabs in pic 1, pic 2 shows the internal spring back plate in this case it is hinged to the holder, Pic 3 shows the optimus logo

[Ron (Netherlands)]

Unusual to have these two brass tabs in pic 1, pic 2 shows the internal spring back plate in this case it is hinged to the holder, Pic 3 shows the optimus logo

Interesting...it differs from mine...which has very flat metal strips as tabs at the end of the dark slides....will take a picture when I get home ...

[Ron (Netherlands)]

Here's a picture of the Perken plateholder with the metal tabs - it has the same innards as yours Andrew:

https://kpmg0072.home.xs4all.nl/Rayment%20camera/Perken%20plateholder.jpg

[andrewch59]

Ah Ha! I have two of those didn't know who the maker was, someone has removed most of the screws from the hinges. Will have to get them sorted. How is the construction going?? I must say I take my hat off to you for wanting to do it to specs.

[Ron (Netherlands)]

How is the construction going?? I must say I take my hat off to you for wanting to do it to specs.

Still very busy at my regular work before the holidays start.
Indeed I always do restoration 'at specs as' you call it (just restored a full plate Eastman camera which had a broken brass part), therefore also during the holidays in a couple of weeks to get enough time to do this type of restoration work.

Btw the breadboards are attached to the main board with wooden slides/stripes - you might be able to see them when looking at the side of the board. Can you say anything about the dimension of the slides (they are very tiny) - maybe a picture?

[andrewch59]

Bottom of board to strip 1/32, height of strip 1/16, top of strip to top of board 3/32. width of strip 5/16

[Ron (Netherlands)]

Bottom of board to strip 1/32, height of strip 1/16, top of strip to top of board 3/32. width of strip 5/16

Thanks again Andrew, 'll let you know as soon as the project is heading further...

[Sanford]

Mahogany is a pretty soft wood and I would wager that the "breadboards" at the top and bottom are of a harder wood to prevent them from wearing out quickly. I know that many of the old studio cameras used Mahogany for the body, and Cherry for the base and anywhere moving parts meet

[Ron (Netherlands)]

Mahogany is a pretty soft wood and I would wager that the "breadboards" at the top and bottom are of a harder wood to prevent them from wearing out quickly. I know that many of the old studio cameras used Mahogany for the body, and Cherry for the base and anywhere moving parts meet

Thanks Sandford,

Guess most of us ‘woodshoppers’ would consider mahogany as a hard wood, and I’m pretty sure most of the British mahogany made camera’s had breadboards made of the same wood as this Perken camera: matching the wood of the middle board. However to prevent warping, the breadboards have their grain direction perpendicular to the grain direction of the middle board. Further it’s important that the splines are not cut along the grain...

[Ron (Netherlands)]

previous messages about the actual building of the lensboard are replaced to a separate thread:https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?155762-Replicatiing-the-lensboard-for-a-Perken-Son-amp-Rayment-camera&p=1529833#post1529833

[Chauncey Walden]

I was shooting a nice PS&R lens today on my 8x10. It is a 10x12 "Optimus" RR of about 400mm.

[Ron (Netherlands)]

I was shooting a nice PS&R lens today on my 8x10. It is a 10x12 "Optimus" RR of about 400mm.

Thanks for passing by Walden and giving info on your PS&R lens. In the meantime I got two of these nice lenses, one for fullplate - about 250mm and one for half plate.
Would love to see your results.