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CreationBear
15-May-2019, 04:51
I'm wondering: given a choice between two lenses with functioning Copal shutters--one in a "modern," black shutter, the other with a silver shutter ring--would you be willing to pay a bit more for the former? Or is it basically a "push" in your eyes, especially given that the older one could have been babied whilst the newer one could have been rode hard and put up wet?

Any insights appreciated!:)

Dan Fromm
15-May-2019, 05:14
With used goods, ya pays ya money and ya takes ya chances.

Larry Gebhardt
15-May-2019, 05:18
I don’t know if there are internal differences. I’ve always assumed not. If that’s true I’d look at the wear on the shutter and lens as a proxy for how it was cared for. But if you may resell it I do think the perception is that the black ones are better, and therefore worth more.

CreationBear
15-May-2019, 05:48
ya pays ya money.

Ha, no doubt, especially since my skills presently wouldn't justify owning, say, one of the "new run" Sironar-S's out there.:) The perceived value of black Copal's is something to keep in mind as well--though of course there are items where it's the older version that's more valued.

pepeguitarra
15-May-2019, 07:09
Every time I have bought a lens with a black shutter (latest model), I have had problems. I usually sent all my shutters to be CLA after they arrive. The all-black shutters have been the only ones that I have had to send for a second CLA in less than a year (two of them, except the Copal 3, which is a blessing). Coincidence? bad luck? Not sure, just facts.

Bernice Loui
15-May-2019, 07:13
Newer is not better...

Black shutter speed dial Copal shutters began with Nikkor. Eventually Copal made all their shutters with the black shutter speed dial. The Chrome shutter speed dial Copal shutters are in ways nicer as the chrome holds up better where the black is anodizing.

Zero functional difference between Chrome or Black shutter speed dial.

The non-round Iris on Copal shutters can be a disadvantage at large apertures with some lenses.

The lesser appreciated shutter is the old Compound that uses an air cylinder to control shutter speed. These are very simply, reliable, durable and have a nice round iris. The later Compur shutter with the squarish styling is another lesser appreciated shutter. These do not appear to have the problems of the earlier Compur shutter problems and they also have a nice round iris. Prontor Pro while fancy does not have a round iris. Seiko is similar in many ways to the Copal shutter, Other older are Ilex, Alphax, Rapax, Betax and... tend to have round iris.



Bernice

Tin Can
15-May-2019, 07:29
When you get a good one, never sell it.

I find the smaller the black Copal the better.

If I like the lens and it has a bad shutter I use a Sinar or Packard shutter.

Bernice Loui
15-May-2019, 07:31
Four of the lenses here were purchased new in a black Copal shutter during the late 90's. All have been good so far and to date. Others Copals are the older Chrome dial variety which have been quite problem free, but they do die from time to time. Service wise, it does appear the black shutter speed dial Copals tend to have more problems than the earlier chrome dial shutters for some reason.


Speaking of Copal shutters, the Sinar Copal shutter has been remarkably tough, reliable, accurate over decades of service and a LOT of film. Had one serviced by Sinar some time in the early 90's and has been used a lot with zero problems after that Sinar facility servicing.


Bernice



Every time I have bought a lens with a black shutter (latest model), I have had problems. I usually sent all my shutters to be CLA after they arrive. The all-black shutters have been the only ones that I have had to send for a second CLA in less than a year (two of them, except the Copal 3, which is a blessing). Coincidence? bad luck? Not sure, just facts.

CreationBear
15-May-2019, 07:36
A very useful précis, Bernice, thanks! Any thoughts on Copal press shutters? I can see how they might be handy for some kinds of conditions I encounter (e.g. running water, etc.) but there seems to enough sample variation I'm not sure I'd want to take them own. (PG's experience with black Copals would probably send me running to Best Buy...:))

Bernice Loui
15-May-2019, 07:53
No longer own any Copal press shutters. In the past, they have been good. Do think their iris location is different than the standard Copal making them not always directly interchangeable with the standard Copal, check this.

Prontor also made a press shutter about the same era which was used a LOT on Polaroid MP series cameras. These are often found with no iris as they were intended to be used with a lens mounted on the front of the shutter. Copal press shutters were also common on Polaroid MP series camera.


Bernice


A very useful précis, Bernice, thanks! Any thoughts on Copal press shutters? I can see how they might be handy for some kinds of conditions I encounter (e.g. running water, etc.) but there seems to enough sample variation I'm not sure I'd want to take them own. (PG's experience with black Copals would probably send me running to Best Buy...:))

CreationBear
15-May-2019, 08:05
check this.

Excellent, thanks for elaborating--I doubt it would be a problem with the Sinar, but in any case I don't want to sift through a lot of cable releases to find one that works.:)

Bernice Loui
15-May-2019, 08:25
HA !!!

Cable releases are a Whole -nother discussion, hesitant to disclose the number of cable releases used, tossed and coveted over the decades of burning film. What is true, there are GOOD cable releases and ones that should have never been made.

Used only the good ones.


Bernice


Excellent, thanks for elaborating--I doubt it would be a problem with the Sinar, but in any case I don't want to sift through a lot of cable releases to find one that works.:)

Tin Can
15-May-2019, 08:35
An hour ago I 'won' a rare cable release for $77 delivered.

Been waiting for it at least 7 years.




HA !!!

Cable releases are a Whole -nother discussion, hesitant to disclose the number of cable releases used, tossed and coveted over the decades of burning film. What is true, there are GOOD cable releases and ones that should have never been made.

Used only the good ones.


Bernice

Dan Fromm
15-May-2019, 09:00
To expand a little on Bernice's comments, Copal Press shutters' have the same tube length as cock-and-shoot Copals (and Compurs and Prontors) of the same size but have the diaphragm closer to the rear end of the tube. Lenses whose rear cells go deep into the shutter can't all be used in Copal Press shutters.

Copal Press shutters as sold for the Polaroid MP-4 (no diaphragm) and Polaroid Gel Cams have slightly longer tube lengths than the Compur/Copal/Prontor spec calls for and some have diaphragms that don't open as wide as the spec says they should. Be careful when repurposing them.

Mark Sampson
15-May-2019, 09:26
I've used lenses in Copal shutters, chrome and black rings, since the early 1980s. Despite extensive use, none of them have ever required service; most were bought used. I'll call it a non-issue. It's true, you can't know how much work a used shutter has had, but see Mr. Fromm's post early in this thread.

Bob Salomon
15-May-2019, 09:55
Just to add a distributor’s experience. We were the US importer and distributor for Rodenstock from 1986 till 2015. During that period we sold thousands of lenses in Copal shutters to dealers, industry, military, government, etc.. I can not remember a shutter problem during that period and we extended a 3 year warranty on every one of those shutters. It is a non issue. Black Copal shutters are very reliable.
We were also the Linhof distributor from the mid 70s till 2015 and sold Linhof tested lenses in Compur and Copal shutters, until Compurs were discontinued as well as both Copal and Compur shutter’s supplied on lenses for the Technoramas, Technar and other Linhof speciality cameras. Shutters were never a problem.
We also sold lots of Prontor Professional shuttered lenses from when the shutter was introduced till they went out of production. Again no problems whatsoever. Same with the Rollei Linear Motor shutter for view camera lenses and the Rodenstock eShutters. No problems.

Please note, the Rollei shutter for view camera lenses, we had many problems with the ones in their medium format cameras.

Corran
15-May-2019, 12:01
Press shutters generally have 5 aperture blades. Nikkor lenses in black-rim Copals sometimes have 5 blades too, and then newer ones have 7 (they are marked with an "S" in a circle on the side of the shutter).

While often the # of blades are quoted and discussed (also whether rounded or straight) in regards to out-of-focus regions, it also can affect points of light and how many lines radiate out from them (starbursts). This only happens with straight blades and the # of lines equals either the # of aperture blades if even and double the number of blades if odd.

Anyway - my experience, with a great number of used lenses over the years, is that older silver-rim shutters often need CLA's and newer black-rims don't. I have never had a black-rim Copal that was anything but perfect. Anecdotal, but I would say I've had at least 40-50 lenses in and out of my hands in Copal shutter. YMMV.

CreationBear
15-May-2019, 13:02
I have never had a black-rim Copal that was anything but perfect. Anecdotal, but I would say I've had at least 40-50 lenses in and out of my hands in Copal shutter. YMMV.

Well, I think I know where to start with my Chi-square inquiries now...:) Thanks again for all the responses--and I will have to study the matter of cable releases a bit more thoroughly it seems.:)

Dan Fromm
15-May-2019, 13:49
About used Copal shutters needing service.

I've harvested #0 Copal Press and one #0 cock-and-shoot Copal from mug shot cameras. All were gummed and needed overhaul.

I've bought several despised lenses in cock-and-shoot Copal #1s for less than the going price of used #1s for their shutters. All had speeds that were variable enough to need service.

Same goes for MP-4 Polaroid Copal Press shutters. These are almost ideal -- top speed of 1/125 is slightly limiting -- for front-mounting and are usually quite inexpensive 'cos they have no diaphragms. Some were fine, for a while. Others were too inconsistent or gummed up when received.

In my limited experience, factoring the price of a CLA into the price of a used shutter is absolutely necessary.

CreationBear
15-May-2019, 16:23
In my limited experience, factoring the price of a CLA into the price of a used shutter is absolutely necessary.

Good advice--I found the same to be true for Pentax 67's...great cameras, but entropy will have its due.:)

JimL
15-May-2019, 18:34
The thing I don't like about the Press shutters is that when the lens is open using the preview lever, the aperture is automatically set to full open. This means you can't stop down to check your depth of field while viewing the ground glass (unless the shutter is set to B and held open with the cable release, which to me is a pain).

Bob Salomon
16-May-2019, 06:44
The thing I don't like about the Press shutters is that when the lens is open using the preview lever, the aperture is automatically set to full open. This means you can't stop down to check your depth of field while viewing the ground glass (unless the shutter is set to B and held open with the cable release, which to me is a pain).

Then you have never used the Prontor Professional series of shutters.

Bernice Loui
16-May-2019, 07:13
Prontor Pro shutter works GOOD !


Bernice



Then you have never used the Prontor Professional series of shutters.

Bernice Loui
16-May-2019, 07:17
Shutters should be tested for shutter speed accuracy with a calibrated shutter tester. This is the only way to really know if a given shutter is good, bad or needs service. Sound and function are not enough if the goal is exposure accuracy and consistency is a requirement. Run a bunch of shutters on a good shutter tester and one will discover how much shutter speed variation can be between shutters or some shutters have remarkable accuracy and consistency.

Regardless of brand, age and all that test the shutter in question with a certified accurate shutter tester.



Bernice

pepeguitarra
16-May-2019, 07:50
How and where can you get a shutter tester? Is this good ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOcGn07YUpc

Tin Can
16-May-2019, 08:16
I bought that from the original maker in the video. Now 7 years ago.

No it's not certified.

But it works good enough for me.

Don't forget shutters are 'allowed' to be plus or minus 20% of a set speed.

A big window.

Some shutters beat that. Some shutters are easier to fix as they are either simple, or modern and if parts are available.

Shutter repair people want gifts of shutters to raid for parts.

I have never paid for or tried to DIY fix any shutter except Packards. I am also against magic solvents as they are dangerous.

Soon shutter repair people will be even more rare, it's a lost art and fading business.

Really expensive watch makers may be the next step.

They make the parts at very high cost.


How and where can you get a shutter tester? Is this good ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOcGn07YUpc

jim10219
16-May-2019, 08:17
How and where can you get a shutter tester? Is this good ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOcGn07YUpc

I've heard those acoustic shutter speed testers can give problems on certain shutters, as there can be a lot going on other than just the sound of the shutter blades. I've never used one though, so I can't say anything for sure.

I have, however, built my own shutter speed tester using a phototransistor, battery, capacitor, resistor, a few wires, and a box. It's easy and cheap to make is you have a soldering iron. It works by using an audio editing program to measure the time the shutter is open. The trick to it's accuracy lies in the speed of the phototransistor and your ability to interpret the results. There are lots of DIY tutorials out there for how to make them.

There are also commercially produced dedicated units that are designed to give you fast, accurate readings without any of the headache of interpreting the results. They cost a good bit more, but some people find the convenience worth it.

Tin Can
16-May-2019, 08:26
That link is about a light behind the shutter and a photo sensor as switch plugged into the audio in.

No actual sound is used. Maybe a couple clicks created by circuitry inside the dongle.


I've heard those acoustic shutter speed testers can give problems on certain shutters, as there can be a lot going on other than just the sound of the shutter blades. I've never used one though, so I can't say anything for sure.

I have, however, built my own shutter speed tester using a phototransistor, battery, capacitor, resistor, a few wires, and a box. It's easy and cheap to make is you have a soldering iron. It works by using an audio editing program to measure the time the shutter is open. The trick to it's accuracy lies in the speed of the phototransistor and your ability to interpret the results. There are lots of DIY tutorials out there for how to make them.

There are also commercially produced dedicated units that are designed to give you fast, accurate readings without any of the headache of interpreting the results. They cost a good bit more, but some people find the convenience worth it.

jim10219
16-May-2019, 08:47
Soon shutter repair people will be even more rare, it's a lost art and fading business.

Really expensive watch makers may be the next step.

They make the parts at very high cost.
I'm actually seeing it go the opposite way. More and more people are learning to do this work on their own instead of sending it out to have a professional do it. Thanks to the internet as a source of free information and sourcing obscure parts, there's a growing class of people who are far more inclined to take on difficult repair projects. It's especially true for the younger generations, since wage growth hasn't kept up with inflation for decades now, they're being forced to attempt DIY projects previous generations would pass on since they can't afford to send things out to expensive professionals or throw it out and buy a replacement when it breaks. Plus they tend to be more experience oriented, and what is a DIY project, if not an experience?


That link is about a light behind the shutter and a photo sensor as switch plugged into the audio in.

No actual sound is used. Maybe a couple clicks created by circuitry inside the dongle.
Oh. Well in that case, it's probably the same as what I had made.

Sal Santamaura
16-May-2019, 09:03
A shutter testing tangent. I've a Calumet shutter tester, bought new probably close to 30 years ago. It works perfectly. Recently, after acquiring a used lens, I went to check its shutter performance. Something was amiss; the tester wouldn't register past a certain count when aligning things with the shutter preview lever open. My dense brain woke up after a couple of attempts. The lamp's bulb had recently been replaced with an LED substitute. Screwing in the old incandescent bulb instead restored proper tester function.

Every time that LED's switching power supply cycled it off, my Calumet tester started counting again. Keep at least one incandescent bulb handy if you're going to check shutters. :)

Tin Can
16-May-2019, 09:11
I have been doing DIY since I was watching my parents, build a cabin, drill the well by hand, dig the outhouse hole, make the boat, make me special small water skies. In the 50's.

I DIY everything I can still do, at age 68. Made a boat 20 years ago. Made a lot of sculpture, fixed 100's of bicycles and motorcycles. Made VW Mud Buggies, etc in the 70's.

But shutters are beyond my beat up hands and dim eyes going forward.

I am building 2 tiny houses, next to my ancient house. Just in case....

I was late to Punk Rock as when it started getting big about 1978 I thought I was too old. But 1983 to 2003 I was in the mosh pit...Punk Rock made DIY, imho


I'm actually seeing it go the opposite way. More and more people are learning to do this work on their own instead of sending it out to have a professional do it. Thanks to the internet as a source of free information and sourcing obscure parts, there's a growing class of people who are far more inclined to take on difficult repair projects. It's especially true for the younger generations, since wage growth hasn't kept up with inflation for decades now, they're being forced to attempt DIY projects previous generations would pass on since they can't afford to send things out to expensive professionals or throw it out and buy a replacement when it breaks. Plus they tend to be more experience oriented, and what is a DIY project, if not an experience?


Oh. Well in that case, it's probably the same as what I had made.

Corran
16-May-2019, 10:23
From what I've seen on a few camera groups on Facebook, home "repair" is usually a soak in Ronsonol with the top cover removed.

Most of them are shooting a sheet/roll or two and then sticking them on the shelf...

Regarding the shutter speed tester - I bought the one offered on Kickstarter recently (last year? 2017?). It's buried on my desk somewhere and I can't remember the name of it or who made it. Perhaps it is now commercially available?

JimL
16-May-2019, 14:09
Then you have never used the Prontor Professional series of shutters.

I have not... I should have clarified - I was referring to the Copal Press shutters. Although the Prontor professional is self-cocking, would it be regarded as a "press" shutter?

Larry Gebhardt
16-May-2019, 14:37
A shutter testing tangent. I've a Calumet shutter tester, bought new probably close to 30 years ago. It works perfectly. Recently, after acquiring a used lens, I went to check its shutter performance. Something was amiss; the tester wouldn't register past a certain count when aligning things with the shutter preview lever open. My dense brain woke up after a couple of attempts. The lamp's bulb had recently been replaced with an LED substitute. Screwing in the old incandescent bulb instead restored proper tester function.

Every time that LED's switching power supply cycled it off, my Calumet tester started counting again. Keep at least one incandescent bulb handy if you're going to check shutters. :)

Sal, thanks for reporting that. You have likely saved me a lot of troubleshooting time when I go to test shutters next. Most of my bulbs are now LEDs.

Bob Salomon
16-May-2019, 16:10
I have not... I should have clarified - I was referring to the Copal Press shutters. Although the Prontor professional is self-cocking, would it be regarded as a "press" shutter?

“Press” shutter’s are all self cocking. Although the Prontor Professional does far more then regular press shutters.