How I enjoy this hobby is not how You enjoy this hobby. Get over it.

[Jim Galli]

I've been in large format since 1993. Self taught with books and lots of trial and error and failure. At first I was going to be an important arteeest. That was no fun and too much work, and I have the attention span of a gnat. Plus I live so far in the middle of nowhere that it was silly to think I could ever run with the big dogs. And I'm a republican, so there's that. No such thing as a conservative person who is artistic. Just ask Imogen.

But, all that said, 26 years later, I've assembled a very large body of work, mostly unseen, for a while some was put on my own web pages, but that's about the extent of it. When I die my kids will have a large mess to clean up. Thousands (quite literally) of LF negatives, mostly 8X10.

But over the course of time, what I learned that I enjoy the most is just playing with the stuff. ALL of the stuff. I probably have 300 viable large format lenses and I'd venture maybe 25 - ish cameras. Yesterday I bought a Stigmatic and a Protar VII for the 4X5 outfit. I'll have fun playing with both of those, and in the course of that pleasure, likely fix their problems associated with being 90 years old and also add to the pile of negatives. But the fall-out is, I'm not a rich man. I'm just a wage earner nearing retirement. And the way my hobby pays it's way is, I buy things, I fix them, I make them better than they got to me, I preserve them for another generation, and often, I sell them. For a profit if possible. Yes, I'm a capitalist. My deal with my wife is, the hobby pays it's own way. It doesn't come out of our regular paycheck.

All in all, I've had a good time doing all this. But some people look upon me with a scowl. Selling stuff for a profit, even if you fixed it, is taboo. Evil.

The For Sale section here used to be part of the fun. That was squashed successfully. Bravo to you purists who judge me for enjoying my hobby my way instead of yours.

[Peter De Smidt]

Jim, your description applies to many people here. I don't get why you're getting any flak.

[Tin Can]

As a Demon Krat I agree with you Jim.

We are more similar than disparate.

I worked in testing laboratories all my life as a technician not a scientist. They dreamed, I made it so.

I love to fiddle about, fix things, make things and I got paid well for unusual solutions to new challenges.

I chose LF as a interesting enough endeavour to fully occupy myself in my dotage.

So far so good and I have met a few LF practitioners even here in nowheresville.

Or as we call it, Fly Over Country.

[jim_jm]

Same here. I enjoy researching, tinkering with, and preserving old photo gear almost as much as I enjoy using it.

The time and effort you spend refurbishing / restoring gear has value, and Lord knows, no one individual is ever going to get rich selling old cameras.

I've gained lots of valuable information from your posts here, and from your web site, so Thank You!

[Tin Can]

My road to financial success, is Buy High Sell Low, but sometimes I lose and make money.

Fools gold!

[BrianShaw]

This is a very sad message to read. I’m blue.

[cowanw]

Well Jim, I have appreciated the several lenses that I have bought from you, and yes I think the struggles over the classified section have resulted in entrenched positions that are undesirable.
Whatever the desire to keep things true to the original intention, whatever each person thought that was, a changing clientele will require change in the functions of the forum.
I don't see the problems largely because I use the New Posts route and just slide by the posts I don't wish to read, although it did occur to me a couple of sellers could be irritating.

Your comment that "How I enjoy this hobby is not how You enjoy this hobby" is all too pertinent in many (most ) areas in the forum. What works for A; may not work for B: how B learns may not be how A learns.
Society has become divisive and the internet exacerbates that and there is not much I can do about all these things except to note that my perception is that you are more of a Wendall Wilkie Republican than a 21st century Republican and so are permitted to be artistic.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

Jim, I'm with ya! Politics never come into things and if they do I'm gone! I do what I love because I love it. We see things the same way.

[Vaughn]

It seems many people do not realize the amount of (unpaid) work the moderators do -- yet they demand the moderators do more work in order to make themselves happy and content. Having been a moderator of what should be a very mellow site (parents of triplets or higher -- and it did not turn out so easy), I appreciate our moderators' hard work, and do not moan over their desire to make this site easier to manage.

And I would never call the moderators names, which is a total bullshit thing to do.

[Tin Can]

The only comparison I can think comes close to the PITA of being a moderator is Condo Board member.

I wasted 14 years doing that thankless job, even quit a few times.

I had board members lying to our Condo paid lawyer and to me as Pres. All Artists! Bah Humbug!

But somebody had to do it...

[Pfsor]

This is a very sad message to read.

+ 1.

[Dan Fromm]

Jimbo, pardon my denseness, but I just can't quite grasp what you're bleating about. Which of your many oxen has been gored, by who and how?

[faberryman]

It seems to me the classifieds work well. I don't know why Jim Galli has a problem with the way it is set up, nor what precipitated his rant. Bad day at the office?

[Pere Casals]

The For Sale section here used to be part of the fun. That was squashed successfully. Bravo to you purists who judge me for enjoying my hobby my way instead of yours.

Jim, sorry but I don't agree.

Bumping is self stimulating, if bumping is allowed then those not doing it are pushed to also do it, and then the Activity Stream fills with noise.

I guess that then new anti-bumping rules can and should be better, but something had to be done...

Those restrictions perhaps are a bit excessive, but they are not harmful, it just makes the sellers think better what price has to be offered. At the end offers will have a similar visibility if noise is removed.

Jim, my proposition is you wait a bit to see how this new system goes before judging it, probably it will be better than it looks, and probably it will need some adjustments: Thesys-Antithesys-Synthesys...

________

hmmm.... those 300 lenses... perhaps only 250 are there, those sawed in halves count like a single one each, not two!

[Jac@stafford.net]

And I'm a republican, so there's that. No such thing as a conservative person who is artistic

I'm will not let politics wedge itself between me and an artist/craftsman of your depth. To do so would be an aesthetic lobotomy. Keep on, Jim!

[BrianShaw]

Bump

[BrianShaw]

Bump

Hey... it still works! Ha ha ha.

[EdSawyer]

Are more moderators needed? I've moderated forums before, it can be work but it can be fun too. If more are needed, put out the call.

And, if clogging the "Unified View" stream by bumping ad listings is an issue, reprogram the stream to ignore those. It's just a PHP site, it's not that complicated, I'd even volunteer to look at the code. Really it would be one query that would need modification to ignore the posts in various forums (which is part of the metadata of the post, undoubtedly). There's plenty of technical solutions to solve these sort of issues. Just sayin'.

-Ed

[Oren Grad]

And, if clogging the "Unified View" stream by bumping ad listings is an issue, reprogram the stream to ignore those. It's just a PHP site, it's not that complicated, I'd even volunteer to look at the code. Really it would be one query that would need modification to ignore the posts in various forums (which is part of the metadata of the post, undoubtedly). There's plenty of technical solutions to solve these sort of issues. Just sayin'.

Ed, it is indeed technically easy to do. But we have discussed it at length on more than one occasion and for a variety of reasons we have chosen not to.

[scheinfluger_77]

I don’t buy that for a moment. We don’t know about them because they don’t get the press, IMO.
...No such thing as a conservative person who is artistic....

[scheinfluger_77]

Amen!

I'm will not let politics wedge itself between me and an artist/craftsman of your depth. To do so would be an aesthetic lobotomy. Keep on, Jim!

[Two23]

Plus I live so far in the middle of nowhere that it was silly to think I could ever run with the big dogs. ....

But, all that said, 26 years later, I've assembled a very large body of work, mostly unseen, for a while some was put on my own web pages, but that's about the extent of it. When I die my kids will have a large mess to clean up. Thousands (quite literally) of LF negatives, mostly 8X10.





Hmmm. Some day you'll be known as the "Vivian Meier of the desert." Someone will buy a pickup truck full of your negs for fifty bucks and sell prints from them for thousands. There will be a movie made about you starring George Clooney. You will become a household name, sort of like Ansel. And I'll be on the forums telling everyone, "Hey I used to know that guy!"


Kent in SD

[Two23]

It seems to me the classifieds work well. I don't know why Jim Galli has a problem with the way it is set up, nor what precipitated his rant. Bad day at the office?

When I'm looking to buy something, it's always specific. It's never just scanning the latest FS and impulsively buying. When wanting to buy something I just do a forum search.


Kent in SD

[Vaughn]

It seems to me the classifieds work well. I don't know why Jim Galli has a problem with the way it is set up, nor what precipitated his rant. Bad day at the office?
Way back when, Jim's for sale posts could be quite fun. A lot of back-and-forth, stories, etc. that also kept his sale threads on top and many of us entertained. Same with other sellers -- comments made, questions asked with some quite informative. There were positives in the old system. However the classifieds are not archived, so any useful info given on the for sale threads are not saved, thus lost to the community as a whole. They created a lot of other negatives, also, and the weight of the negatives caused the moderators to change the system.

[Oren Grad]

However the classifieds are not archived, so any useful info given on the for sale threads are not saved, thus lost to the community as a whole.

Vaughn, the threads are all still there, if one has patience to slog through the returns from vBulletin's brain-dead search tool or trawl laboriously through the FS subforum index.


They created a lot of other negatives, also, and the weight of the negatives caused the moderators to change the system.

That's right.

[Jim Galli]

Hmmm. Some day you'll be known as the "Vivian Meier of the desert." Someone will buy a pickup truck full of your negs for fifty bucks and sell prints from them for thousands. There will be a movie made about you starring George Clooney. You will become a household name, sort of like Ansel. And I'll be on the forums telling everyone, "Hey I used to know that guy!"


Kent in SD

Going for Michael Disfarmer of the desert. But thanks for your gracious words, all of you.

[Eric Biggerstaff]

Shoot Jim, I have always loved your posts and what you do (and sell). Keep on keeping on, just don't stop!

[rdenney]

Jim, I’m confused. I don’t see how the changes that have been made affect your ability to sell stuff at all. If you have stuff people want at a price they are willing to pay, nothing we have done will keep them from buying it.

In the past, there was a problem with sellers like you, who some accused of being a commercial concern, which we used to prohibit. You were a specific example among several that was the basis for allowing small commercial sellers, simply to avoid drawing a line that would put people like you on the other side of it. As a result, your type of commercial operation is now fully blessed.

In the past, sellers often had to endure public questions about why they were selling stuff, as if a person needs a better reason than “I’d rather have the money.” We put an end to that. Or, they would argue about the details of what was being sold or how it was described. Sellers like you complained about that, too, and we fixed it.

If frequent bumping is the only way to perceive product being moved, perhaps the market for vintage and antique lenses has softened.

One thing is for sure, the complaints we are seeing now are from a few sellers. We don’t get as many complaints from buyers. But we sure used to. A buyer can now look down the FS forum pages pages and see what’s on offer from everyone, not just from the most bump-happy few.

Perhaps there are better ways to stand out than bumping.

One thing is for sure: We tried the free-for-all with the don’t-complain-to-us-if-you-get-ripped-off disclaimer, and the problems of that little classifieds section grossly dominated the whole management of the forum. Hard feelings and not a few huffy departures were the result. Other forums are run by those wanting to make the forum a business, and so they have a proprietary interest. An audio forum requires a subscription fee to access the sales area, for example, as part of how the forum owner seeks rent. That is not the vision our owner has expressed, or that the moderators have any interest in pursuing.

In some forums, the hobby under discussion is one of acquisition. Other forums focus on usage. We’d like to be the latter, but recognize that the former is part of it.

Rick “who also likes playing with cameras, and whose heirs are also going to find a body of work nobody will much care about” Denney

[Jody_S]

Jim, everyone who pursues an expensive hobby such as LF for many years has to do what you do, unless they're independently wealthy and can afford to buy the best of everything and stick it on a shelf until they die. We may have one or two members here in that category, but the rest of us either limit ourselves to small kits that work or indulge our buying habits by selling. Politics has nothing to do with it, it's a question of economics. Not even capitalism, since I don't think your goal was to build a lf empire that you could hand down to your children's children's children for them to continue profiting from.

I was skeptical when the For Sale forum rules were changed. mostly because I thought the mods gave themselves more work policing it for no reason other than making a vocal minority of the community STFU. But I don't go around complaining about it because it's the seller's job to find ways of getting his wares to market. I don't complain about eBay turning itself into a giant flea market full of counterfeit Chinese goods and scammers, because no good thing lasts forever and if I want to sell, it's my job to find the buyer. I now sell more at camera fairs than eBay, and virtually nothing here. Besides, I enjoy the face-to-face that I get when some kid eager to explore lf asks me questions about the lenses and gear on my table. When they say they're buying something they can't afford or really shouldn't buy, I tell them 'how do you think I got all these lenses?'

I'm considering making a very cheesy, amateur website with a bunch of my photos, and a list of the lenses I have for sale with their price and condition. Using the name I use to sell on eBay. I know others have tried Etsy and the like, I don't know how much success they have but every time I follow a link there the lens has already sold. That could just be marketing. I guess I could find out by listing a bunch of rare soft focus lenses on my website at bargain prices, then crossing them out and marking 'sold'. I have a healthy respect for successful salespeople, it's an art.

FYI, I'm Canadian, so not a Republican, but for the first time in my entire life last year, a candidate that I voted for won an election. I'm still in shock.

[Tin Can]

This may be Jim Galli's first post. https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?7537-My-first-8x10-lens&p=21074&viewfull=1#post21074

This is just an old FS item by Jim.

https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?31958-Burke-amp-James-8X10-Grover-with-4X5-back-Classic!&p=305543&viewfull=1#post305543

[jnantz]

Hi Jim

Sorry, I'm kind of confused. Im not really sure what your political affiliation has to do with anything. I guess its a hobby, and again like most people, your personal work is under appreciated. Regarding the classifides, I stopped attempting to sell anything about 5 or 6 years ago. I guess you are in the same boat as the rest of us ?

John

PS. Big THANKS to the moderators.

[ic-racer]

This place may not be friendly to small time dealers. Get over it. :)

Seriously, though, none of Jim's ads have ever bothered me, but I think somehow I have the "For Sale" section turned off when I'm browsing here.

[Jim Galli]

Hi Jim

Sorry, I'm kind of confused. Im not really sure what your political affiliation has to do with anything. I guess its a hobby, and again like most people, your personal work is under appreciated. Regarding the classifides, I stopped attempting to sell anything about 5 or 6 years ago. I guess you are in the same boat as the rest of us ?

John

PS. Big THANKS to the moderators.

John, the political part of my "rant" was probably mis-calculated. But I've always felt marginalized in anything that has to do with the "arts" as a conservative. As to selling stuff, at this point I'll probably just blow the stuff out on ebay and move on to other things. Somehow the fun is gone, mostly. Not to worry, I'll make bad pictures of old cars until life catches up with me and I can't any longer.

[Jim Galli]

But there may also be some complaining about the rules as being the cause of a general decline in the use of the sorts of things we talk about and trade.

Many of us are already fully equipped, and the wave of buying used pro-grade large and medium-format film stuff being handed down from pros has perhaps run its course. Some items are getting more expensive (priced a good Pentax 67 lately?) but most are not, and this reflects the market. A year or so ago, I paid $300 in a high-end brick-and-mortar store for a Sinar P Expert kit (no lenses), with case and all the accessories, in really excellent condition. That $300 would barely have bought a Calumet ten years ago, and it’s what I did pay for a used Calumet 30 years ago when the Sinar would have been 10-20 times as much. I paid twice that a decade ago for a clapped out Sinar F that I had to just about rebuild.

If sales aren’t working as well here, don’t be too quick to blame the guidelines.

Rick “respectfully submitted” Denney

Partial quote from the other thread. This is very well said I think. It's just a different time now, less interest, less everything, and for me at least, less fun. Yes, prices are going down.

[Chance2]

I've been on the other side (on other forums), selling one or two items, and only on occasion, only to see my ads buried because a seller (quite often a "pro") has gotten into a back and forth with someone over what a great deal something is... or, someone comes along to tell everyone what a great guy the seller is... or, a seller gets bump happy with their multiple listings..

Unless there's been some recent changes that I'm unaware of, I think the system is pretty equitable as it is, but I can appreciate the OP's position. Maybe there's room for another category of ads where the rules would be enforced differently.

[PRJ]

I think the classifieds here work great these days. You can see what is for sale since the last time you checked. As you are scrolling down, when you see something familiar you know there is nothing else new. It used to be a mess.

There is an awful lot of navel gazing at LFF for some reason. Could be the old-white-guy syndrome. I think it drives people away frankly.

[Peter Collins]

+1 Jim Galli. My words would just be superfluous. You be the articulate man!

[Mark Sampson]

Jim,
nobody ever marginalized you here for your political views... because we haven't talked about politics... until you brought it up.
Perhaps you could take Edgar Degas as your exemplar... brilliant artist, hard-core conservative, and rabid anti-Semite as well as being a pioneering photographer.
If the market for old photo gear is declining, it's not because of this forum's sales rules. And while gear is an important part of large-format photography, it's only part of the whole.
I've enjoyed your posts and have enjoyed everything I've seen on your site... and you've added a great deal of knowledge to this community, for which I thank you. And I'm proud to own one of your prints.
Don't give up LF photography or posting on this forum- you've added a great deal to the common knowledge- more than I ever have, for sure.

[c.d.ewen]

Somehow the fun is gone, mostly.

My feelings, exactly. As you say, times change, people change.

There used to be a certain camaraderie amongst the casual sellers, e.g., Jim, myself, eddie (Gunks), Andy (C.P.Goertz/Dagor77) and others. That's missing now because folks rightly complained about some sellers posting a lot on the FS forum without ever contributing to the knowledge base on the non-sales forums. I'm afraid the solution chosen for that problem, and the discussions that went on at that time, took a lot of that fun away.

Charley

[Jeff T]

It takes the fun out of a hobby when you expect your hobby to make money. There are better ways to grow your money. I appreciate Oren and Rick and all the moderators for keeping the site alive and enjoyable for LF photography, not e-commerce, and I do support the necessary changes. Sure, I understand that we have a need to sell gears we don't use anymore to raise funds for other photographic needs, but it's no fun when the majority of the posts are about buying and selling.

I enjoy the discussions under Comments in the For Sale about the special features about a particular lens, however, I did not enjoy the comments on valuation or negotiation tactics. I was a bit sad when that went away. Bumping is annoying in any forum and I am glad when that went away.

Jim Galli, I hope you continue to make more images, and participate in discussions since I am always happy to see your posts.

[jnantz]

Jim I think many people feel marginalized when the whole world wants fast food and it takes 1 hour to cook dinner.
I've never seen any shade sent your way about your artworks because of your political affiliation...
As far as I am concerned I think you should make a very large book with all your images in it,
and sell "copies" of it on blurb. I am sure people worldwide would purchase it, and my guess is because
it shows a slice of life that people sometimes romanticize about or they might recognize that town from
the movie they made IDK 15 years ago nearby :) AND it will help people who find these old workhorse lenses
and cameras you know so much about. You might even get to do a blitz on the TV talk circuit
( with your circuit or banquet cameras ! ) and be picked up by galleries you didn't know existed.

Lemons into lemonade or whatever they say.

[Bernice Loui]

Change is constant, change is a given.

Been at this LF stuff since the mid 1980's and MUCH has changed. Back then 4x5 color transparencies was the primary and common means toward color image printed media production. Black & White sheet film was the oddity back then with B&W film being much less common than color transparency film. Folks that wielded a view camera were serious about their work, they were often on the other side of the photography divide of roll film -vs- sheet film.

-Few hobbyist were sheet film image makers back then as were field camera. Majority were monorail cameras used in a studio or similar controlled setting.

Cost of camera, cost of lenses, cost of all related to wielding a view camera limited Foto hobbyist interest in sheet film 4x5 and up. There was also technical ability. Back then by the time a photographer was using a view camera as a serious image making tool, they would have likely had formal education, training, apprenticeship with smaller roll film formats long before using a view camera as a image making tool. Along that road, understanding what print image quality was much about.

-These folks had come to understand what high quality images were about.

With the coming and maturity of digital imaging (Began with Kodak's first digital camera in 1975) which is a disruptive technology, that generation of sheet film based image makers began the transition to digital imaging tools. As more time passed, they retired or got out of the image making service due to their expertise and services being of lesser value relative to a new generation entering the image making service and market demands for their offerings. Cost of images also changed as the monetary and material cost of a digital image is not the same as a film based image. As the market shifting towards digital centric images film based images had less market value in many ways.

All these changes in the world of image making flattened the market value of view cameras and all things related to view cameras. This opened up the opportunity for Hobbyist to own view camera stuff that once was beyond their monetary means. This also brought in a generation of image makers with zero experience using film and the production of film based images. Rather than suffering and enduring the long difficult journey of learning and understanding what is required to produce high quality film based images, some of these folks go to the "Web" as their source of knowledge, how to do, what to buy, how to deal with problems. All of this is OK except self proclaimed experts that can market themselves via mass appeal can grow a following based in presenting a good sell rather than promoting what this image making stuff really is.

-Many examples of this here on LFF and else where.

Point of all this verbiage is about how sheet film image making has gone from the industry standard high quality image making tool to a Foto hobbyist dominated interest. Little wrong with this, if the hobby and art world can sustain the market for sheet film related stuff as that adaptation to change is a means of survival for film based image-making. Those who resist change and lack the ability to adapt is likely on the path to extinction.

-Then we have the Foto hardware collectors that need a perceived safe place to put their $. Most of these folks are not interested in making images, they just want to own and admire.


-Last are the Foto wheeler-dealers who are more like hunters in the wild seeking prey to profit from. They hunt and troll every possible resource for Foto gear that has market value then flip it for a profit often based on what the market will pay for the given widget. Knew a foto gear dealer who paid for his medical school education back in the 80's by flipping foto gear. Not much wrong with this as their time and effort was spent hunting and trolling for this stuff then offered to those who do not have the time, interest, or resources to locate this stuff. This endeavor can have significant monetary rewards or losses directly due to what the market is interested in and will pay. Adding value is not Capitalism, it is much of what business is about with any form of _ism.

As the market for film based view camera stuff continues to shrink so will market value of this view camera stuff. This is NOT true for some pockets of the sheet film world as illustrated by the growth and market value of BIG film related items over 8x10 aka ULF.... which connects to another story and discussion.


Bernice

[Tin Can]

Yes and just now the 'news' about EVER (https://www.everalbum.com/)

https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/security/millions-people-uploaded-photos-ever-app-then-company-used-them-n1003371?cid=eml_nbn_20190509

Imaging faces is big biz and a huge privacy problem that we will not solve.

Ever watch 'Person of Interest'?

[aaronnate]

I guess I'm not too sure where the complaints are based as I spend little time in the classifieds. I appreciate the input, expertise, and images Jim shares. That being said, I, suffering from chronic lackoffundasitis and knowing little to nothing about lenses, have often contemplated stalking Jim to find his Lost Dutchmanesque lens mine where Petsvals and Dallmyers grow from rock lens boards in the wall.

One's political affiliation is much like one's sexual orientation. Totally their own business and none of mine, as long as they are happy with who they are. If makeing images, and fixing and selling lenses is what makes you happy, then do it. Ignore the jerks who tell you otherwise.

[invisibleflash]

OP...whatever. No photo police to boss us around. Whatever floats your boat.

I liked your secret weapon lens...

http://tonopahpictures.0catch.com/Secret%20Weapon%20Lens/More_SW_Lens.html

If they are going to trash all those negs when you kick off, send to me and I will scan and put on the Internet Archive.