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Oren Grad
7-May-2019, 13:55
Based on three years of experience with the current version of the Forum guidelines, we are adding the following clarifications to the rules on bumping within the FS and WTB subforums. These clarified rules go into effect immediately, but will not be applied retroactively.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________

Rules on bumping: clarification of FS/WTB guidelines

Posts that violate these rules may be deleted without notice. Repeated violations may result in suspension of FS access.

FS threads

* Price changes may be made through an additional post, but no more often than every 7 days. This is a per-thread rule, not a per-item rule. For example, if you post a thread with 7 items, you may not post a price change for item #1 on one day, a price change for item #2 on the next day, item #3 on the third day, etc. You must include any desired price changes within a single update post, made no more frequently than every 7 days. Price changes must be a minimum of 10% or $10, whichever is greater.

* When ALL items in a listing have sold or have been withdrawn, a post saying so may be added immediately prior to closing the thread.

* Closing a listing after 30 days and re-posting a new thread with the same offer is still allowed.

* NO OTHER BUMPS ARE ALLOWED.

* Please enter descriptive text and pictures within 30 minutes of starting the thread, using as many posts as needed for the amount of text and number of pictures in your description. After 30 minutes, any updates other than price adjustments or closure of the thread must be made via edits to the initial posts. This includes, but is not limited to, the following types of change:

- Changes in item description.
- Changes in attached photographs.
- Addition of "or best offer".
- Changes in payment or shipping terms.
- "Payment pending" notices.
- Notices that some of the items in a listing have sold or have been withdrawn.

* If edits are made to correct errors in identification of the item(s) being sold, the moderators can assist with any corresponding changes required to the thread title.

WTB threads

* All changes should be made via edits to the original post. No bumps are allowed.

Vaughn
7-May-2019, 14:02
Thanks, Oren (and the rest of the crew)! Nice and clear.

Tin Can
7-May-2019, 15:09
Looks good!

dodphotography
7-May-2019, 15:26
Not trying to ruffle feathers but people have privately told me that these rules have driven them from selling here anymore because posts get lost and people just donít see them...

Iíve noticed a stark drop in the number and quality of items being sold here and them finding their way into Facebook groups.




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Oren Grad
7-May-2019, 16:00
Not trying to ruffle feathers but people have privately told me that these rules have driven them from selling here anymore because posts get lost and people just don’t see them...

I’ve noticed a stark drop in the number and quality of items being sold here and them finding their way into Facebook groups.

We've had this discussion many times, but I guess I need to repeat the bottom line once more.

The rules here are designed to enable us to manage the FS and WTB subforums in a way that's even-handed and fair to all, within the constraints placed on us by our forum software, and without consuming a disproportionate share of the moderators' volunteer effort.

The main purpose of the Forum is to share information. The FS and WTB subforums are secondary features, provided as a convenience for members, but limited by the constraints we face. The FS subforum is neither designed nor intended to be a high-powered sales tool.

Finally, we are not trying to compete with other sales venues. Everyone is welcome to choose whichever best suits their purposes. If you decide that your needs are best met by listing elsewhere, that's fine - we don't begrudge the choice, and we wish you well.

Vaughn
7-May-2019, 16:03
That's cool...this place was not created as a marketplace. The selling of 'rare' film, lenses, and cameras at very high prices should be done elsewhere. My opinion, of course.

Jim Galli
7-May-2019, 18:08
Attila speaks. Go ahead and ban me, I haven't sold anything here since you changed it all.

dodphotography
7-May-2019, 18:12
That's cool...this place was not created as a marketplace. The selling of 'rare' film, lenses, and cameras at very high prices should be done elsewhere. My opinion, of course.

Did a few spoil it? Because Iím a Normal guy not a shop trying to profit on people. This is a niche group of people... the forum worked and they tried to fix something that wasnít broken


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Vaughn
7-May-2019, 18:43
No, just that the forum was getting clogged with for sale posts that kept getting bumped multiple times...which throws actual discussions (the reason for this forum) to the back pages that much faster. There were other reasons as well -- search for the threads concerning this issue if you would like more info.

If someone is interested in buying something, it is easy enough to click on the For Sale section every once in awhile and read all the for sale threads in one place, or to make a WTB post.

Corran
7-May-2019, 20:47
We've had this discussion many times, but I guess I need to repeat the bottom line once more.

The rules here are designed to enable us to manage the FS and WTB subforums in a way that's even-handed and fair to all, within the constraints placed on us by our forum software, and without consuming a disproportionate share of the moderators' volunteer effort.

The main purpose of the Forum is to share information. The FS and WTB subforums are secondary features, provided as a convenience for members, but limited by the constraints we face. The FS subforum is neither designed nor intended to be a high-powered sales tool.

Finally, we are not trying to compete with other sales venues. Everyone is welcome to choose whichever best suits their purposes. If you decide that your needs are best met by listing elsewhere, that's fine - we don't begrudge the choice, and we wish you well.

That's all well and good, but it's truly unfortunate that folks caused y'all headaches and caused these changes.

As I think we all know, LF items, especially in certain categories, are hard to find sometimes. This forum's classified was a very valuable resource for me both starting out as a LF photographer as well as for selling equitably a great number of items.

The loss of the Classifieds is still a blow to the community, even if it was always "secondary." And yes, we have truly lost the Classifieds save for a few folks having fire-sales (which are bought up and flipped on eBay/Facebook) and the stragglers still trying to use the space normally.

Like Jim I haven't sold anything I've listed here in years. It all gets sold on eBay or Facebook. At this point I think it'd be better to just close the entire section and let it go.

neil poulsen
7-May-2019, 21:38
Please define "bumping"?

I can think of two definitions . . .

A. Reposting an add with a fresh thread after 30 days.

B. Adding a post to an existing thread.

Originally, the term "bumping" was used when each additional post caused an existing thread to be "bumped" to the top of the category's queue. That type of "bumping" no longer occurs in the FS/WTB section.

If "B" above, is it outside the new guidelines to use multiple posts for adding additional photos at the initial posting of a sale?

As for changing a price, I rarely do that until I start a fresh thread after 30 days on the same sale.

From my perspective, it would be nice to shorten the time after which one can repost an add in a new thread on the same sale. (From 30 days to something less.)

Oren Grad
7-May-2019, 21:57
Thanks for the question, Neil.

Closing a listing after 30 days and re-posting a new thread with the same offer is still allowed. This will bring the listing back to the top of the subforum index. I've added this to the text of the announcement.

The clarifications announced here have to do with additional posts within a thread.

In starting a thread, you can use as many posts as you need to accommodate all of your text and pictures. But these posts must be made within the first 30 minutes. After that, any changes to the description must be made by revising the existing posts.

Although adding posts no longer brings a thread back to the top of the FS or WTB subforum indexes, it still brings it to the top of the "Today's Posts" and "New Posts" views. In practice, a subgroup of sellers has continued to violate the spirit of the guidelines by bumping aggressively within the wiggle room that was allowed by the last revision. The clarifications announced here draw bright lines so that there is no longer ambiguity about what is allowed.

dodphotography
8-May-2019, 03:04
Thanks for the question, Neil.

Closing a listing after 30 days and re-posting a new thread with the same offer is still allowed. This will bring the listing back to the top of the subforum index. I've added this to the text of the announcement.

The clarifications announced here have to do with additional posts within a thread.

In starting a thread, you can use as many posts as you need to accommodate all of your text and pictures. But these posts must be made within the first 30 minutes. After that, any changes to the description must be made by revising the existing posts.

Although adding posts no longer brings a thread back to the top of the FS or WTB subforum indexes, it still brings it to the top of the "Today's Posts" and "New Posts" views. In practice, a subgroup of sellers has continued to violate the spirit of the guidelines by bumping aggressively within the wiggle room that was allowed by the last revision. The clarifications announced here draw bright lines so that there is no longer ambiguity about what is allowed.

No one sees the sub forum index, it occupies such a small % of the screen


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Jim Galli
8-May-2019, 05:58
At this point I think it'd be better to just close the entire section and let it go.

Agree. If it's so painful for everyone, shut it down. The "concession" hasn't worked.

dodphotography
8-May-2019, 06:01
Agree. If it's so painful for everyone, shut it down. The "concession" hasn't worked.

I agree...


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Tin Can
8-May-2019, 06:10
Good grief what an odd bunch of Radicals calling for FS thread shutdown.

The FS/WTB threads works well for me and I am a radical.

Let it be (https://youtu.be/QDYfEBY9NM4)

Jim Fitzgerald
8-May-2019, 07:19
Way too much trouble to sell anything and most on here have little or no success, myself included. Way to many restrictions and I understand what the moderators position is. So whatever! The forum discussion have not been very interesting as well. I don't spend much time here anymore .

Pfsor
8-May-2019, 07:23
Way too much trouble to sell anything and most on here have little or no success, myself included. Way to many restrictions and I understand what the moderators position is. So whatever! The forum discussion have not been very interesting as well. I don't spend much time here anymore .

+1

dodphotography
8-May-2019, 07:46
+2


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bloodhoundbob
8-May-2019, 08:08
Good grief what an odd bunch of Radicals calling for FS thread shutdown.

The FS/WTB threads works well for me and I am a radical.

Let it be (https://youtu.be/QDYfEBY9NM4)

Amen, Randy. If one does not want to use it, don't use it. It obviously works for some, as I see quite a few SOLD notifications.

Luis-F-S
8-May-2019, 08:32
Iíd rather list here than elsewhere because Iíd rather deal with photographers than the general public. If others donít want to itís their choice.

Corran
8-May-2019, 08:43
Amen, Randy. If one does not want to use it, don't use it. It obviously works for some, as I see quite a few SOLD notifications.

You're right, it does work for some. Especially Fire-Sale items.

You may be surprised where some of these items are going.

By the way, I have been sold an item on this forum by an innocuous-sounding person/username, only to have the item show up marked as having been sold by a well-known dealer. One that was a member here and posted under other usernames. I'll let you figure out the rest.

dodphotography
8-May-2019, 08:50
You're right, it does work for some. Especially Fire-Sale items.

You may be surprised where some of these items are going.

By the way, I have been sold an item on this forum by an innocuous-sounding person/username, only to have the item show up marked as having been sold by a well-known dealer. One that was a member here and posted under other usernames. I'll let you figure out the rest.

That person... rotary machines anyone? Ruined this place


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Tin Can
8-May-2019, 08:51
Yes some know whom, he should be banned as a business. That is in the rules, I believe.

Others sell low to promote usage and keep the flame going. I have also sold low.

I have had many simply give me LFPF items by PM or email.

One joined LFPF solely to give me gear he found. He just wanted it to go to a user. Not the landfill.


You're right, it does work for some. Especially Fire-Sale items.

You may be surprised where some of these items are going.

By the way, I have been sold an item on this forum by an innocuous-sounding person/username, only to have the item show up marked as having been sold by a well-known dealer. One that was a member here and posted under other usernames. I'll let you figure out the rest.

Oren Grad
8-May-2019, 09:02
One that was a member here and posted under other usernames.

Posting here under multiple usernames is a violation of Forum guidelines. If you are aware of someone who is doing that, please report it, with supporting evidence.

Corran
8-May-2019, 09:03
I certainly appreciate the folks selling low to get gear into the hands of users. Been on both sides of that equation.

Edit: Oren, I wish I would've kept the supporting evidence. This was a couple of years ago now and I was in the middle of a lot of other things and never got around to mentioning it to you (I fully intended to do so). It seems others have seen/noticed it so perhaps they will talk to you about it further.

Oren Grad
8-May-2019, 09:04
Yes some know whom, he should be banned as a business.

Small businesses are expressly allowed under the guidelines that have been in effect for three years now.

Tin Can
8-May-2019, 09:21
I thought there was a $100,000 yearly sales limit.

If that was lifted then I have nothing to say.


Small businesses are expressly allowed under the guidelines that have been in effect for three years now.

Oren Grad
8-May-2019, 09:28
I thought there was a $100,000 yearly sales limit.

If that was lifted then I have nothing to say.

From the guidelines:

No for-sale postings by retail establishments with more than $1,000,000 in annual revenues.

The revenue limit has not been changed since this went into effect three years ago.

Tin Can
8-May-2019, 09:32
and it was so

Peace



From the guidelines:

No for-sale postings by retail establishments with more than $1,000,000 in annual revenues.

The revenue limit has not been changed since this went into effect three years ago.

rdenney
8-May-2019, 10:46
Several have indicated that their only reason for forum participation is to buy and sell stuff, and the limitations on doing so render the forum not worth their time. Interests change and participation here is entirely at will, of course.

It has been true for my entire ten years here (still a newb compared to some) that the sales forum has been intended as a classifieds section for regular members to buy and sell amongst themselves. It has taken much of that time to make the FS forum act like a classifieds.

And the result is this: far less complaining about deals that went bad, incorrect listings, bump hogs, secret commercial enterprises, ridiculous prices, fraudulent claims, etc. etc. Those whose main reason to be here was sales, who felt they had to depend on practices like repeated bumping, have moved on to venues better suited to their approach. Better for them; better for those who remain. This forum is not bent on world domination and is happy to coexist with other services not central to our discussion group mission.

But there may also be some complaining about the rules as being the cause of a general decline in the use of the sorts of things we talk about and trade.

Many of us are already fully equipped, and the wave of buying used pro-grade large and medium-format film stuff being handed down from pros has perhaps run its course. Some items are getting more expensive (priced a good Pentax 67 lately?) but most are not, and this reflects the market. A year or so ago, I paid $300 in a high-end brick-and-mortar store for a Sinar P Expert kit (no lenses), with case and all the accessories, in really excellent condition. That $300 would barely have bought a Calumet ten years ago, and itís what I did pay for a used Calumet 30 years ago when the Sinar would have been 10-20 times as much. I paid twice that a decade ago for a clapped out Sinar F that I had to just about rebuild.

If sales arenít working as well here, donít be too quick to blame the guidelines.

It is true that the guidelines are there to address practices about which we received abundant complaints, and which also caused many silent defections. There is no solution space here, if the objective is to make everyone happy. All we can do is remain true to the vision of this forum: a discussion group enhanced by a convenient way to move items surplus to needs to a forum acquaintance with the minimum of fuss.

Rick ďrespectfully submittedĒ Denney

Sal Santamaura
8-May-2019, 11:12
Human nature is "interesting." Give people a free service, then read complaints that they can't dictate its terms. :)

Vaughn
8-May-2019, 11:19
My feeling, too, Sal -- though respectful suggestions and thoughts on the matter should be appreciated.

Tin Can
8-May-2019, 11:27
Some hipster Kats will demand fresh fish.

Helcio J Tagliolatto
8-May-2019, 17:17
....

Many of us are already fully equipped, and the wave of buying used pro-grade large and medium-format film stuff being handed down from pros has perhaps run its course. Some items are getting more expensive (priced a good Pentax 67 lately?) but most are not, and this reflects the market. A year or so ago, I paid $300 in a high-end brick-and-mortar store for a Sinar P Expert kit (no lenses), with case and all the accessories, in really excellent condition.
....

Rick “respectfully submitted” Denney

I think you have correctly identified the reasons.

Taija71A
14-Sep-2019, 12:16
From the guidelines:

No for-sale postings by retail establishments with more than $1,000,000 in annual revenues.

The revenue limit has not been changed since this went into effect three years ago.


... The main purpose of the Forum is to share information...

Really? Okay...

And how has that change ($1,000,000 in annual revenues) worked for the greater 'Benefit' of the Forum and its Forum Members?
--
We now have a Forum Member that does nothing more -- Than use the Forum for his own 'personal' Sales Business.
Has 'said' Forum Member made any 'Meaningful' contributions to the Forum (by way of 'informational' Forum Posts) as of late?

Taija71A
14-Sep-2019, 12:32
Attila speaks. Go ahead and ban me, I haven't sold anything here since you changed it all.
Me thinks... That 'Attila' likes "Flogging a Dead Horse."
--
In the last three years (or so)...
This Forum has turned into a virtual Ghostown (a deserted town with few or no remaining inhabitants).

BrianShaw
14-Sep-2019, 12:57
Proof positive that yesterday was Friday the Thirteenth with a full moon. Ha ha.

Taija71A
14-Sep-2019, 13:34
"Howling at the Moon"... Has its benefits. ;)

Sal Santamaura
14-Sep-2019, 13:37
...In the last three years (or so)...
This Forum has turned into a virtual Ghostown (a deserted town with few or no remaining inhabitants).Interesting "observation" from someone who hasn't been here in a year.

Methinks you dost protest too much. :)

Taija71A
14-Sep-2019, 13:53
Correct. It has been a while since I last posted. Thus I was really 'surprised' by what I saw...
When I "Logged-in" -- Earlier this afternoon. :(
--
I of course was not complaining. Just making a couple of 'observations' and comments Re: Some of the Forum Posts
("Nothing More and Nothing Less!").
--
However...

Did you look at the FS/FT Forum today? I couldn't help but notice the 'Rapid Decline' in the Number of individuals viewing that 'specific' Forum:

>> For Sale/For Trade (10 Viewing). <<

Did you count the Number of 'Today's Posts'? You could read them all in 5 Minutes (and still have time to spare).
It was 'factual' points like these... That led me to the 'Ghostown' observation.
--

Agree. If it's so painful for everyone, shut it down. The "concession" hasn't worked.

As other Forum Members have observed; 'perhaps' the changes that were made three years ago...
Were not in the best interest -- For the 'Long-term' vitality of this Forum?

calebarchie
14-Sep-2019, 15:45
I have posted WTB ages ago with no responses yet, kind of just gets lost in there. Strange that you cannot have a discussion in the threads either, other forums allow that and members can pitch in and assist. Very different here...

Eric Woodbury
14-Sep-2019, 15:59
When we had discussions here long ago, the first couple were generally okay, then people got lost in the weeds. And folks would take jabs. It was annoying. Better now, not perfect, but better.

Dan Fromm
14-Sep-2019, 16:05
I have posted WTB ages ago with no responses yet, kind of just gets lost in there. Strange that you cannot have a discussion in the threads either, other forums allow that and members can pitch in and assist. Very different here...

Y'know, it could be that no one wants to sell what you expressed an interest in buying. That is, no one who noticed your request had the thing(s) to sell.

I don't follow the WTB section so I don't know whether you stated the price you'd pay. If you offered way below market that may have put off people who have the item(s) you wanted to buy.

Tin Can
14-Sep-2019, 16:18
If something doesn't sell in 3 weeks, I close the thread and delete the price, I don't say it was sold.

6 months later it sells without a bump.

I do check WTB occasionally but seldom have what people want.

Jim Graves
19-Sep-2019, 20:50
The "For Sale" thread is a mere shadow of its former self ... sad ... and a loss for sellers and buyers.

Ari
1-Feb-2020, 21:50
But there may also be some complaining about the rules as being the cause of a general decline in the use of the sorts of things we talk about and trade.

Many of us are already fully equipped, and the wave of buying used pro-grade large and medium-format film stuff being handed down from pros has perhaps run its course. Some items are getting more expensive (priced a good Pentax 67 lately?) but most are not, and this reflects the market. A year or so ago, I paid $300 in a high-end brick-and-mortar store for a Sinar P Expert kit (no lenses), with case and all the accessories, in really excellent condition. That $300 would barely have bought a Calumet ten years ago, and it’s what I did pay for a used Calumet 30 years ago when the Sinar would have been 10-20 times as much. I paid twice that a decade ago for a clapped out Sinar F that I had to just about rebuild.

If sales aren’t working as well here, don’t be too quick to blame the guidelines.

Rick “respectfully submitted” Denney

I must respectfully disagree here, that most of us are well-equipped, thus the FS participation has abated as a result.
This ignores all newbies who come along and need some cheap starter gear, as well as some older members looking for something different.
Where would I, and many others, be without that kind of help and easy availability of gear? And the discussions of gear?
The discussions also fostered a fraternal spirit, one that lent itself to helping others. I remember Christopher offering to send me a Linhof part for free my first week here.
As a result, I used to offer up some small freebies in the FS section every month, as a way to give back a little bit. You won't find that spirit here anymore because we all have to wear blinders, look straight ahead, and not pass notes to each other.
And I'll add: moderating is a thankless pain in the butt, and of course it isn't our forum.
Let the forum take on whatever character it was intended to have. It may leave a mess sometimes, but it could also be a refreshing, revitalizing mess.

Mods, I'll go stand in the corner now.