Headache from Fixer Fumes?

[Two23]

I've been spending about an hour each night in my bathroom tray developing glass plates. My method has been to set up the HC-110 with lights on, then turn them off and immediately slide the plate into it. Water stop bath, and while that's going on I then pour my Photographer's Formulary 4 fixer into the tray and move the plate from the stop into the fixer. Fix for ~4 minutes, then into a rinse. While I have rinse water running I pour the fixer back into the bottle. The tray remains wet from the fixer, of course. I do have my bathroom fan on, and I'm wearing a glove on my right hand which I only dip into the HC-110 to retrieve the plate. Have not been wearing a glove on my left hand, which I use to pull the plate from the fixer. I wash my hands first chance I get.

All of this has been working sort of OK, but tonight I went for a double batch. That meant leaving the fixer in the tray while I started my second batch. Fan on but bathroom door closed, with towel blocking the crack at the bottom. I did get a slight headache afterwards--rarely get headaches. My sinuses and eyes also feel a bit irritated. Don't have this problem using the Stearman 445 tank, of course.

So, any suggestions? I'm positive it's the PF4 that is bothering me. I could try turning on the central air fan to pump more fresh air into the bathroom, but I'm not sure that would be enough. I have two other thoughts. After I do the stop bath, can't I then open the door to the subdued light while doing the fixing? I think that would solve my problem. I surely should be able to open the door during the final rinse I would think. I could then put the fixer back into the bottle and rinse out the tray. Or, should I change fixers? Eventually I plan on building a real dark room in my basement and would have better air circulation in that. Likely won't do that for at least a year or two though. What do you guys do? I feel like the headache and slightly burning eyes/nose is a warning to heed.


Kent in SD

[Alan9940]

I can't stand the ammonia smell of TF4 or TF5 in open trays or my dip-n-dunk film processing tanks and I work in a fairly large darkroom. I much prefer Kodak F-24 which is odorless. Downside is you have to mix it yourself from raw chemicals.

[G Benaim]

If it's an ammonium thiosulfate fixer that may well be the cause. I had similar issues plus nausea and switching to plain fixer, sodium thiosulfate for any open tray work made a big difference.

[Two23]

If it's an ammonium thiosulfate fixer that may well be the cause. I had similar issues plus nausea and switching to plain fixer, sodium thiosulfate for any open tray work made a big difference.

Might well have to do that. Could use up the PF4 in the tank, and use something else in trays. What are some examples of Na thiosulfate fixers?


Kent in SD

[G Benaim]

The old kodak powdered fixer is one but you can buy the ingredients at the formulary and mix yourself, not too difficult at all. Also pool supply stores may carry the thiosulfate.

[Duolab123]

Kodak's standard powdered fixer (F5) stinks. You cam make up Kodak F6 which is very low odor and still has a hardener for your precious plates. It's formula is listed all over just Google it. It's a Sodium thiosulfate based fixer. Ansel Adams used this back in the old days.
Once the plate is in stop bath you can turn on subdued lights as long as you proceed directly to fixer no problem.

[Pere Casals]

Fan on but bathroom door closed, with towel blocking the crack at the bottom.

This provides null ventilation.

If no fresh air can enter then no air can go out, the air volume that enters it's the same than the one that exits, if not your bathroom would be left with no air.

You should provide a free (light tight) entry path for fresh air, then you'll have a ventilation.

____________________________


Use a daylight tray, this is a paper safe, you can develop with lights open and the door open.

After development done close lights, place the sheet in the stop bath and wait some 30s , then you may open lights again and fix lights open, and door open.

You only need to close the lights and the door to drop the sheet in the developer (paper safe) and to place it in the stop bath. You also may use a second paper safe for the stop bath, to not wait.

You also may use a citric stop bath

[j.e.simmons]

I found that it was the stop bath that affected me. I’d suggest a session using plain water as stop. At worst, you’ll eliminate that as a cause. If the stop is the problem, you could replace it with citric acid.

[Two23]

Thanks for the thoughts. I'm using distilled water for stop bath, so it's not that. If I can crack the bathroom door open which would allow a lot of air in with just a small amount of diffused light after taking plate from stop bath and dropping into fixer, I think that would solve the problem right there. I would also dump the fixer back into the bottle when finished and rinse the tray while doing the final wash.


Kent in SD

[Tin Can]

I use have used only this fixer (http://stores.photoformulary.com/tf-5-archival-fix/) for years now. Film, glass plates and any paper.

Try it. you may like it. I don't like mixing powders and it comes as a liquid.

I also check clearing time before every use with strips of X-Ray film.

I am not so sure you should open the door or turn on lights right after the stop bath.

I always wait to turn on lights for 1/2 my fix time, which is determined by the test strip clear time x 3. OR 3 minutes in the fix. TMAX is 6 minutes.

[Richard Wasserman]

I used to have a similar problem. Years ago I switched to Ryuji Suzuki's Neutral Fixer which I mix myself and use full strength for film and paper.

The formula:

Ammonium Thiosulfate 60% 200ml
Sodium Sulfite 15g
Sodium Metabisulfte 5g
Water to make 1 liter of working solution

[Drew Wiley]

I have been using TF4 for both film and paper for at least a couple decades - as long as it's been on the market. No issues at all. But I have a very efficient ventilation system and ALWAYS wear nitrile gloves on both hands when ANY KIND of chemicals are involved. A degree of irritation build-up is inevitable if your air intake and exhaust are not properly designed; and sooner or later, sensitivity issues are a distinct risk even with relatively innocuous chemicals. Even basic stop bath can get to you. After all, it's acetic acid.

[archphotofisher]

https://www.google.com/search?q=darkroom+door+vents&oq=darkroom+door+vents&aqs=chrome..69i57.7965j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

I used many bathrooms for darkrooms; with windowless you really need supply air coming in, and the fan for exiting to the ouside. I found by using two 4'x7' sheets of black fabic, "felt" (i used to black out windows while photographing interiors worked well) attached to each side of the door opening, (leave door open) ( works best with sliding pocket doors) created light trap between sheets allowing the fabric to breath and with the fan on pulled air into the space.
there's my two bits
Gregory

[Tin Can]

I forgot when I made my first darkroom in my bathroom I did install a Doran Vent in the door and used the exhaust fan.

The first one in the google search.

And I plan to install another one soon!. Different house, this time a spare bedroom. I bought the second Doran Vent some time ago.


https://www.google.com/search?q=darkroom+door+vents&oq=darkroom+door+vents&aqs=chrome..69i57.7965j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

I used many bathrooms for darkrooms; with windowless you really need supply air coming in, and the fan for exiting to the ouside. I found by using two 4'x7' sheets of black fabic, "felt" (i used to black out windows while photographing interiors worked well) attached to each side of the door opening, (leave door open) ( works best with sliding pocket doors) created light trap between sheets allowing the fabric to breath and with the fan on pulled air into the space.
there's my two bits
Gregory

[PRJ]

I use a bathroom darkroom as well. To get around the ventilation issue I cut a piece of masonite to lay against the molding that the door closes against. This allows the light to be blocked, but air can still go through the space between the door and the masonite and under the door. Works well. I only do that during the day though. You might want to replace the fan as well with something that will move more air.

I find TF-4 obnoxious too, but I only use it in tanks. Ilford's Hypam is what I use in the darkroom. Maybe give that a whirl.

[jnantz]

Does your bathroom have a window or an exhaust fan ? The first thing I would do is use an exhaust fan, and open your window a crack to get fresh air in your processing space, and then use a fixer that doesn't reek of Ammonia, like Sprint Speed Fixer or good old Sodium Thiosulfate. It isn't good to be breathing in all those fumes, the headaches are a tip of the iceberg.

[Peter De Smidt]

I used to have a similar problem. Years ago I switched to Ryuji Suzuki's Neutral Fixer which I mix myself and use full strength for film and paper.

The formula:

Ammonium Thiosulfate 60% 200ml
Sodium Sulfite 15g
Sodium Metabisulfte 5g
Water to make 1 liter of working solution

Thanks for the formula, Richard. My main developer is DS-10. Anyway, whats the advantage of adding the sulfite and metabisulfite? I've been using straight Ammonium Thiosulfate for decades, and I haven't noticed any problems.

[Henry Ambrose]

You might look into making or buying a vertical tank for your fix. I made one from plexiglas that worked pretty well. Its about an inch wide. Very much less surface area of fix exposed to the air. Make a cap for it and you can leave the fixer in the tank, assuming no children or pets can get to it. Make the tank opaque with a lid and you can open the door while it soaks.

[Drew Wiley]

I have available a flexible duct with an inline booster fan if I need extra fume extraction in closer proximity to something noxious in the darkroom sink. This feeds into the main fume hood and works quite well when I need it.

[Duolab123]

Buy a 3M respirator. Put these cartridges in and you won't be bothered. If your eyes water it's time to get out. I used these on the job, they work great.

https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/company-us/all-3m-products/~/3M-Organic-Vapor-Acid-Gas-Cartridge-6003-07047-AAD-60-EA-Case/?N=5002385+8709322+8711405+3294780293&preselect=8720539+8720550+8720746&rt=rud

[LabRat]

Thanks for the formula, Richard. My main developer is DS-10. Anyway, whats the advantage of adding the sulfite and metabisulfite? I've been using straight Ammonium Thiosulfate for decades, and I haven't noticed any problems.

The straight ammonium thiosulfate will clear, but not at the optimum pH for long life, at not the pH for adding hardener... Someone I know was using it straight, but developed problems with incomplete fixing with films and prints picking up pink or blue casts and fading over time... Sodium sulfite + acetic acid become sulfuric acid that is not affected by developer carryover...

For the vent, anything that can draw the air over the tray out will be a big plus, and an input vent that can equalize pressure in the room is good...

Steve K

[Drew Wiley]

Ordinary respirators aren't going to get everything. Besides, they can be pretty hot and sweaty. I've both sold and used all kinds of em, including in the darkroom for color chemistry. But even if you do take that route, it is NO SUBSTITUTE for a steady interchange of inside and outside air via a suitable intake vent plus sufficient fume extracting fan. I happen to be rather sensitive to RA4 chemistry, so what I've done for quite awhile now, including this afternoon, is, after exposing the paper and loading it in a light-tight processing drum, doing the actual chemical process steps outdoors. I have a big rotary processor on a portable cart capable of handling up to 30X40 inch drums. But I too once had my beginner darkroom days using a spare bathroom.

[Two23]

Thanks for all the tips. I think first I'm going to try: exhaust fan in bathroom plus running the central AC fan, immediately after 4 minute fix pour it back into bottle and rinse tray (while plates are in final 20 minute wash,) open the door after fixing and doing wash, wear a glove on each hand (right hand pulls plate from developer, left from fixer.) Will also wash hands as I go. If that's not enough will then buy & use Hypam fixer. I do have another bottle of fixer just received but it's Kodak fixer + hardener which contains ammonium thiosulphate and sulphuric acid. I bought it for the early batches of plates. I think I can limit my exposure by simply limiting the time fixer is in the tray to the four minutes it's being used, and then rinsing the tray out immediately. Will also open the door after fixing (subdued light) and that should clear the small room out quickly. If I continue doing a lot of this I will consider speeding up the timetable on making a well ventilated darkroom. All of this has me thinking I'm on the right path with plans to only do wet plate in a portable darkroom outdoors.


Kent in SD

[Tracy Storer]

When I tray process ULF film, or any time ventilation is not optimal, I keep the fixer tray covered until I'm ready to put my film in it then cover it again after the film goes into a rinse tray. I use the next size larger tray upside down over the fix to cover the whole thing. You could also just cut a piece of plexiglas as a cover.

[Tin Can]

That's a very useful tip

Thank you!



When I tray process ULF film, or any time ventilation is not optimal, I keep the fixer tray covered until I'm ready to put my film in it then cover it again after the film goes into a rinse tray. I use the next size larger tray upside down over the fix to cover the whole thing. You could also just cut a piece of plexiglas as a cover.

[Drew Wiley]

A single scratch will land a piece of acrylic in the scrap bin of our local plastics store at a huge discount. No good for picture framing, but great for things like tray covers or fabricating print washers etc.

[Two23]

Useful tip indeed!


Kent in SD

[Duolab123]

190891

Don't get in a bidding war

https://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-1948-Wolff-Deep-Tank-Instant-Loading-Cut-Roll-Film-Processing-Tank/362638152160?hash=item546eeb11e0:g:b-QAAOSwoOxcXi~I

[Duolab123]

Ordinary respirators aren't going to get everything. Besides, they can be pretty hot and sweaty. I've both sold and used all kinds of em, including in the darkroom for color chemistry. But even if you do take that route, it is NO SUBSTITUTE for a steady interchange of inside and outside air via a suitable intake vent plus sufficient fume extracting fan. I happen to be rather sensitive to RA4 chemistry, so what I've done for quite awhile now, including this afternoon, is, after exposing the paper and loading it in a light-tight processing drum, doing the actual chemical process steps outdoors. I have a big rotary processor on a portable cart capable of handling up to 30X40 inch drums. But I too once had my beginner darkroom days using a spare bathroom.

These aren't ordinary respirators. But your point is well taken. After working around isocyanates for 25 years I'm sensitized. I would need to wear a respirator to be within 100 feet of the stuff. No substitute for fresh air. I have been working on increasing my blower cfm. I think I'm going to buy a central dust collection impeller. Nothing I use would be corrosive. My main concern is sound.

Not like the good old formaldehyde days! That stuff would numb you up as it poisoned you.

[Drew Wiley]

Technically, you'd need a variety of respirator cartridges. Ordinary activated charcoal ones will capture long organic molecule films for awhile, but not short acid or ammonia vapors. Serious sensitivities require a supplied air hood, hose, and external air pump. But respirator elements get expensive, and I had a direct 3M industrial dealer account! But since I got away from messing with industrial coatings, my sensitivity level has somewhat normalized. At one time the sales head of Benjamin Moore's true industrial coatings division wanted to go into private business with me as his partner; and I'd probably be dead long before now if I had taken that offer up. Gosh, things sure had some nasty solvents back then. I know someone who worked at the epoxy brewing factory across town and now can't even touch a baked enamel desk forty years old without bloating up with anaphylactic shock. But those good ole moisture-cure formaldehyde floor and boat finishes... they could sure be tough if they were mixed and cured correctly; but when they weren't, I've seen entire buildings condemned and leveled because they were too noxious to safely remove. Moisture-cure urethanes were analogous; they've been illegal for a long time now, but one of the local varnish factory owners would sometimes batch that up for his personal yacht use. Nobody involved with that stuff lived to a ripe old age.

[Duolab123]

Technically, you'd need a variety of respirator cartridges. Ordinary activated charcoal ones will capture long organic molecule films for awhile, but not short acid or ammonia vapors. Serious sensitivities require a supplied air hood, hose, and external air pump. But respirator elements get expensive, and I had a direct 3M industrial dealer account! But since I got away from messing with industrial coatings, my sensitivity level has somewhat normalized. At one time the sales head of Benjamin Moore's true industrial coatings division wanted to go into private business with me as his partner; and I'd probably be dead long before now if I had taken that offer up. Gosh, things sure had some nasty solvents back then. I know someone who worked at the epoxy brewing factory across town and now can't even touch a baked enamel desk forty years old without bloating up with anaphylactic shock. But those good ole moisture-cure formaldehyde floor and boat finishes... they could sure be tough if they were mixed and cured correctly; but when they weren't, I've seen entire buildings condemned and leveled because they were too noxious to safely remove. Moisture-cure urethanes were analogous; they've been illegal for a long time now, but one of the local varnish factory owners would sometimes batch that up for his personal yacht use. Nobody involved with that stuff lived to a ripe old age.

I finally decided that my wimpy Doran ventilator wasn't enough. It worked well but it still lacked the oomph. Yesterday I bought a blower for a central shop dust collection system. It's got a capacitor start 1 HP motor, rated at 660 cfm. I temporarily hooked to my existing duct. I need to fabricate a outlet. I'm mainly interested in solving fixer and especially toning fumes. I Jobo color films. I'm not sure what the final configuration will look like but this thing really moves air. The darkroom is where water heater and furnace reside. There's two passive air returns separate from the furnace cold air return. So I have PLENTY of make up air. I'm going to talk to my neighbor as you can hear it from outside and the grasses and flowers are blowing around. I don't want him to think I'm up to no good.
Mike
190969

[Two23]

190969[/ATTACH]


Just tell him the guys you're cooking meth for can get pretty nasty with nosy neighbors.


Kent in SD

[Peter De Smidt]

Make sure not to suck combustion products, mainly carbon monoxide, from the furnace or the water heater into spaces were you'll be.

[Duolab123]

Make sure not to suck combustion products, mainly carbon monoxide, from the furnace or the water heater into spaces were you'll be.

I've got a furnace with powered exhaust system. I think it will be fine. I won't be using this that much. Mainly for toning. I will open darkroom door when toning. You are absolutely correct about the water heater, it's a passive gravity convection vent to the roof. The heat from the water heater flame has enough oomph to get the convection going. Growing up in a house with a 1901 gravity furnace, coal converted to natural gas. I remember my Dad going up to my sister's bedroom with the old Kirby vacuum, getting the warm air to start rising. It would stall.
Your points are well taken. I will be careful. I have a central CO monitor /smoke alarm system, one of the alarms is located in my darkroom so, I should know if something goes wrong.

[Duolab123]

Just tell him the guys you're cooking meth for can get pretty nasty with nosy neighbors.


Kent in SD

I've got the beard, need to shave my head and get a Heisenberg hat!:o

[Duolab123]

One other thing, the furnace has a negative pressure switch, I tripped this where we used to reside. We had floors refinished in March, I opened some windows and turned on a whole house fan. It tripped the pressure switch on the furnace, which quit, I didn't have enough windows open. Paid 100 bucks to learn that lesson.

[Duolab123]

Here's what I ended up with. I tried out pouring 28% acetic acid into a conical graduate. No odor detected by my nose. The grating reduces the volume of air (and noise) as well so I won't create back draft down the water heater vent. I will make a bracket to support. I'm not going to permanently attach to blower, so I can fit this attachment to the blower when needed, stow the rest of the time. No more choking on Selenium toner fumes. Heck I may even go back and try sulfide toners.
Best Regards Mike

[Duolab123]

Here's what I ended up with. I tried out pouring 28% acetic acid into a conical graduate. No odor detected by my nose. The grating reduces the volume of air (and noise) as well so I won't create back draft down the water heater vent. I will make a bracket to support. I'm not going to permanently attach to blower, so I can fit this attachment to the blower when needed, stow the rest of the time. No more choking on Selenium toner fumes. Heck I may even go back and try sulfide toners.
Best Regards Mike

With the photo :rolleyes:
190980

[Drew Wiley]

Darkroom in an old motorhome in the middle of nowhere in New Mexico?

[Tin Can]

Dust free

[Two23]

Did two batches back to back again tonight--four plates. I didn't pour the fixer in until the plates were in the stop bath, and then put them in immediately. Bathroom exhaust fan and house central air fan on with air coming through strong from AC vent. Gloves on both hands. Removed towel from under the door (very dim light on other side.) After fix, placed plates in final 20 minute wash and immediately place a large flat lid over the fixer tray. Did the second batch, placed in stop bath, uncovered fixer and set in there. Removed towel from under door. Immediate after getting final wash started for second batch I drained the fixer back into bottle, rinsed the tray out. This time not only did I have no headache, my eyes weren't burning and nose wasn't irritated. I think I've got it under control. Will order some Hypam to use when tray fixing.

Thanks for the suggestions.:) I've now successfully done about six batches in trays and think I'm getting it down. This is boosting my confidence to tackle wet plate. I've made a lot of progress since the first of the year!


Kent in SD

[Duolab123]

Final iteration of my setup. I can just pull the plenum and pipe off the blower when not in use. This thread got me motivated to get this done.

190984

Good discussion!

[Duolab123]

Did two batches back to back again tonight--four plates. I didn't pour the fixer in until the plates were in the stop bath, and then put them in immediately. Bathroom exhaust fan and house central air fan on with air coming through strong from AC vent. Gloves on both hands. Removed towel from under the door (very dim light on other side.) After fix, placed plates in final 20 minute wash and immediately place a large flat lid over the fixer tray. Did the second batch, placed in stop bath, uncovered fixer and set in there. Removed towel from under door. Immediate after getting final wash started for second batch I drained the fixer back into bottle, rinsed the tray out. This time not only did I have no headache, my eyes weren't burning and nose wasn't irritated. I think I've got it under control. Will order some Hypam to use when tray fixing.

Thanks for the suggestions.:) I've now successfully done about six batches in trays and think I'm getting it down. This is boosting my confidence to tackle wet plate. I've made a lot of progress since the first of the year!


Kent in SD

Covering up the tray really helps. I've done this by inverting the same size tray and using this as a cover. Glad you are doing well. One question, doesn't wet involve something like ether? I know nothing about it other than I'm glad I can buy film, I've seen some remarkable works from modern wet plate.
Buy a old van ,you won't need a burro and a wall tent :o

[Drew Wiley]

Maybe burros contributed some special ingredient missing in modern wet-plate work. Ever notice how brownish the old plates are?

[Duolab123]

Maybe burros contributed some special ingredient missing in modern wet-plate work. Ever notice how brownish the old plates are?

;)

[Davidson1987]

Guys, I understand that this is quite an old trade and maybe you will find this off topic, but I really really need some advice. I still can not start a new discussion and therefore have found a relatively suitable discussion. Recently, I am increasingly experiencing severe headaches and I would like to know your opinion about this. I decided to use Kratom because the reviews on the Internet are just excellent and many say that Kratom is a panacea for all diseases. Nevertheless, I would also like to know your opinion. I found the best kratom (https://thegoldenmonk.com/kratom-strains/super-green-kapuas-kratom-review/) and want to know if you used this substance at one time?

[Drew Wiley]

Nice but noisy. The next phase would be to install a remote fan that pulls the air. I do have a supplementary booster air extractor similar to that which can be placed close to noxious vapor containers, but ordinary use just the main fume hood which has a big externally mounted squirrel-cage fan, and is quiet.

[Rick A]

I used to use PF4 fixer, but the ammonia odor gave me headaches as well. I started using a different fixer and the headaches stopped. I switched to Eco Pro Neutral Fixer and haven't had problems in years now.

[Tin Can]

I use PF5 with distilled water as my only fixer

Even with it's low odor I cover it in gas burst tanks

but open tray printing it's fine for me

if something hurts you, get away

[jp]

I have used both photoformulary tf4 and tf5. The tf5 is about 1/4 as smelly as tf4 and worth it for tray use. I would also avoid tf4 for tray use but it does a great job in tanks like patterson/combiplan/stearman/jobo.

[Greg]

When I was a student in a summer workshop at RIT in the 1970s, each student was assigned to a darkroom during class time. On the first darkroom day visited another student in his darkroom because this was the first time he was in a darkroom and wanted to see if he needed any help. Was knocked back by the fumes... He had filled his stop bath tray with undiluted Acetic Acid.

[Two23]

When I was a student in a summer workshop at RIT in the 1970s, each student was assigned to a darkroom during class time. On the first darkroom day visited another student in his darkroom because this was the first time he was in a darkroom and wanted to see if he needed any help. Was knocked back by the fumes... He had filled his stop bath tray with undiluted Acetic Acid.



WOW! I did solve my problem by simply keeping the bathroom fan on, pouring the fixer only when the plate was ready, and immediately pouring it back into the bottle when done, and then rinsing out the tray.


Kent in SD

[Drew Wiley]

undiluted Glacial Acetic Acid??? Are you sure you weren't walking into a body disposal episode of Breaking Bad?

[Greg]

undiluted Glacial Acetic Acid??? Are you sure you weren't walking into a body disposal episode of Breaking Bad?

No but very close to it at the time.

[Duolab123]

When I was maybe 8 years old, I broke into my Dad's darkroom cabinet. I was going to show my buddy how to print. I couldn't remember which chemical came first etc. Dad had a quart of glacial acetic acid. I poured out about 50 mL into an Ace hard rubber tray before I realized I had made a grievous error. I think I managed to pour it back into the bottle, probably took me a couple running away and holding my breath.
As I grew older, thankfully, I will never forget the label my dad had pasted to the bottle, "Glacial Acetic Acid 10cc/L" :rolleyes:

[Rod Klukas]

The suggestion of a light trap Louver in the door will be the best though for your health, though.
The attached louvers could be used in off set pairs if your bathroom door is hollow. Paintable.

They work. 205887 I used them for a few years.

Rod