Wisner Manufacturing

[Robert McClure]

Any new information on Wisner Manufacturing above and beyond the Wisner web site info?

My impression has been that other manufacturers have seemed to offer fewer lines, or at least manufacture one line at a time. Sort of like biting off no more than they could chew at one time.

Mr. Wisner seemed to offer quite a number of different lines (twenty-something, wasn't it?), models, etc. I cannot imagine what it would have been like to manage all of that and try to still still do it well. Geezz!

My further impression was that the company moved to a smaller, less expensive facility, settled all current/in-house obligations and probably tried to improve its cash picture.

Next, if I were involved (thankfully, I 'm not), I'd change some business practices - like not taking big deposits, and promising only what I could deliver within a certain time. Like the other folks seem to do.

Did Mr. Wisner fall victim to trying to be all things to all LF photographers? Try to get too big?
Try to be "Mr. Everything?"

I don't really know the answers and was curious about who knew what.

[Brian Ellis]

Mr. Wisner is putting on a large format workshop here in the Tampa-St. Petersburg area, some time in November I think. That would indicate to me that he perhaps isn't devoting full time to getting the company back on its feet. I don't know anything beyond that. I don't plan to attend the workshop but if anyone is interested let me know and I'll provide detailed information, it's about $350 for a weekend so it isn't cheap.

[Oren Grad]

The Wisner website was updated within the past week to push the earliest date for new orders back to Dec 1. No other changes, but at least it indicates that somebody is still at least semi-conscious there.

[Donald Brewster]

z-z-z-z-z-z-z-z-z-z. Either the Wisner camera works for you or it doesn't. If it does, buy it. If it doesn't, buy someone else's camera. I use a camera made by a company that went out of business. It is called a Deardorff. It doesn't make the camera any less useful, and there isn't any Deardorff factory service either.

[Michael Kadillak]

Michael:

Not a silly question at all. The reason that your time talking to Wisner directly is energy questionably spent is because three people independently asking the same question within days of each other will get three different answers. Analogistically like pulling the handle on a slot machine. This is not the case with folks like Dick Phillips or Keith Canham who are truthful and as honest as one could possibly ask for.

However, getting the answer to your question is a rather simple task. First, the right person needs to have a direct conversation with the former shop manager that is supposed to take over the new operations and see if they worked out a "deal" for her continued commitment to the new venue. If she is not on board or has pursued other employment opportunities a remake of the company is not going to happen and the lid to the coffin needs to be nailed on and the organ player needs to get to the church. Secondly a simple amount of private investigation is in order by those nearby that may be dealers and have an incentive to know what is the plan. One could easily check out in person the new building that is supposd to house the new operation in MA. Is it completed and what size is it? Talk to the neighbors about what went into the building - woodworking equipment or antique organs or furniture? Then let us know.

The longer the period of uncertainty as to kick starting the potential business plan for the new Wisner company, the less likely it will matter as Shen Hao will be hitting the market shortly with a ULF camera that will sequester a good portion of the current demand with a tremendous price point in the business and no funny stuff.

Should be interesting how this plays out.

Cheers!

[Eric Rose]

I'm so tired of this.

[steve simmons]

There are several new cameras, from 4x5 up, that will be hitting the market in the next few months. Richard Ritter has a new 7x17 and there are others in the pipeline.

steve simmons

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

The longer the period of uncertainty as to kick starting the potential business plan for the new Wisner company, the less likely it will matter as Shen Hao will be hitting the market shortly with a ULF camera that will sequester a good portion of the current demand with a tremendous price point in the business and no funny stuff.

Michael,

There have been rumors circulating for almost a year that a 7x17 Shen Hao will be hitting the market "any day now". Nobody has yet seen such a camera and there are no specs on the Shen Hao web site. Do you have any up-to-date information on the expected dates when the Shen-Hao ULF cameras will actually be available? Any specs on their ULF cameras?

As far as the price goes, don't look for the Shen Hao ULF cameras to be priced as attractively as originally indicated. Early price quotes from the factory listed a price of the 7x17 Shen Hao as $2700. Emile de Leon provided an updated price of $3700 about a month and a half ago. That's about $200 higher than the most recent price shown on the Wisner web site for a 7x17 Technical (although the Wisner prices will probably go up if/when they start taking new orders) . It's also more than the expected prices for both Jim Chinn's and Richard Ritter's soon to be released 7x17 models. It appears there are several manufacturers poised to fill any void in the ULF market created by Wisner's prolonged absence. Shen Hao may indeed be one of the companies entering the ULF market, but they do not appear to be the price leader (like they are in the 4x5 field camera market). How much of the ULF market share they garner is yet to be seen. With other Shen Hao products, their primary appeal is the low prices. If they lack that advantage in the ULF market, they may have a tough time competing with the other new manufacturers. If their ULF cameras are built using the same materials as their smaller format models, they will also be very significantly heavier than the competition. While a lot of folks will tolerate the extra weight if the price is attractive, far fewer will pay more money for a heavier camera with a shorter bellows (again, assuming their ULF models will be similar in design and materials to their 5x12 and other current cameras).

I'm not trying to bash Shen Hao here - just pointing out that it's far from foregone conclusion that they will "own" the ULF market if Wisner falters. They are just one of several who will be vying for that market share. The more the merrier. Such competition is good for us all.

Kerry

[Michael Kadillak]

I understand completely Kerry. All I was wanting to convey is that the fact that other camera makers are attempting to find a way to enter this domain and supplant or compete with suppliers and that is as you said a very good thing. Where Shen Hao balances weight, bellows length and price are yet to be determined. Emile indicated that at the end of the month more information should be available, but we will have to wait and see. I believe that Sandy King has provided some recommendations to Shen Hao on the 5x12 camera and it sounds like they are receptive to advice they feel comes from respectable sources.

From my personal point of view, anything that tips the scale under the weight of my 35# Wisner 11x14 Tech Field would be a good thing. Two days in the field with this camera is equal to one day at the gym. At least it feels like it.

If Wisner did come back I feel that he would price his cameras just slightly below Canham and that would diminish his lower priced incentive that got him to this point. I personally think that the door is already closed and I wish Ron the best in his future sailing, writing books or lecturing.

Onward!

[Ted Harris]

Richard Ritter's 7x17 weighs around 10 pounds. The 'chasis' can esily be converted to 11x14 too and it will also be very light.

[Robert McClure]

Michael Alpert,

It has always amazed me how the asking of the most innocuous of questions to this forum can, at times, stir so much emotion. Sometimes even anger.

I read the many and varied responses from interested, knowledgeable, and informed contributors. I have thought to myself that this is why I love this forum.

One who responded is, I think he had said, an engineer who runs his own company and seems to have a lot of experience in LF. Another publishes a magazine dedicated to LF photography. Another has articles in the above magazine, it seems, almost every issue. And he, like the others, appears to be an accomplished photographer.

I learned that Mr. Wisner is doing a workshop, that his site was updated the past week, and that Eric Rose is "tired."

From two contributors I learned a who lot about the LF market in general and about some specific manufacturers' planned offerings. I was thrilled to learn that there was so much going on with the 7x17 format, my own format of choice.

I mean, for a guy who is enthralled with LF photography and wants to learn all he can about all aspects of it, can you blame me for posing my questions here? I start a thread, and in less than 24 hours there magically appear comments and answers from a small crowd of really saavy folks.

My fourth grade teacher used to tell us there was no silly question.

[Robert McClure]

Michael,

Touche, Michael. You are entirely correct. Some of what I had written started down a path not productive (from my own perspective, actually, now that I reread it).

As for keeping to issues more closely related to the work of LF photography, I can certainly understand your perspective. You make a valid point.

But I observe that a certain measure of vitriol seems to remain in your above response. Subtle, but quite present. Which relates to my original comment about innocous questions stirring such emotion.

I ask another question, then. Why? Why are you so obviously angry about what I wrote? I am baffled.

Someone you don't even know asks a few questions on a forum and you become incensed.

I wonder how that anger manifests itself in your work. On the other hand, anger can actually be productive, I believe.

God, I love this forum!!!

[Robert McClure]

Michael,

Wow! I think you're right, Michael. My sincerest apologies if I have misjudged your remarks. But you are quite a writer.

Since you nailed me on my, more or less, technical mis-use of the forum (touche!), I will contact you offline to ask further questions.

Sincerest Regards,

[Todd Wright]

Being a Wisner camera owner myself I have ask myself the same question Robert openly asked on this forum. There are a lot of Wisner camera owners out there probably asking themselves the same. One question that for a while (years) has bothered me was what if Wisner goes out of business? From the post that I have read it sounds as if a camera of his breaks he may not work on it for the simple fact there has been a lot of post on him not answering the phone and even answering his mail. Then there is the question of if a shop ready exist? Would you feel conferrable sending him your camera with all that has been said in the past year?

All said I hope Wisner is around for along time to come, the type camera he builds is truly a work of art. If it weren’t for Ron where would the ULF camera be? He went out on a limb when he started building these big cameras when there was no one else.

As to the what if my camera breaks question. A few years ago some one told me about Richard Ritter. Richard has worked on my camera twice so far. Both times my fault. First time back the camera worked better then it ever had. Second time back he found a way of preventing the lens lock from coming undone and letting a lens fall off.

[Robert McClure]

Todd,

(You have discovered, as I have, that after the first day or so a thread on this forum is sort of like yesterday's newspaper. Oh, well ...)

I agree with you that Ron Wisner deserves considerable credit for what he did. He really was/is "Mr. Large Format," at least to my way of thinking.

If your (Wisner) camera breaks, fixing doesn't seem to be that big of a deal, considering the numbers of Richard Ritters and others who are ready and able.

Good Luck to You!

[Ron Wisner]

I rarely look at this forum, but happened to be here today for another thread and noticed this one. After twenty-five years in this business, I decided that fifteen employees and too many balls in the air was too much. I have other things I want to do. I also have serious concerns about the future of film. Thus, I decided to clean house, downsize and remake the business on my terms. I was also well aware that this would make for better customer relations, as things had just become too unwieldly. I sold our 5000 square foot building and built a new, two-story 1,000 sqft. building across town.

My decision to stop taking orders until every order and obligation is either refunded or shipped is stated on our website. I have kept that promise, having shipped product or refunded cash worth six figures since May, when I voluntarily stopped taking orders. There is very little left in the way of obligations except for some ongoing support such as lens boards and some holders, or specific cameras about which the customers and I have communicated (about four cameras).

If you have a repair that is under warranty, the warranty will be honored as long as I am breathing. Until the new shop is finished (we are still insulating and wiring), we are taking care of minor orders like lens boards and warranty repairs in our temporary shop. Email me before you ship any warranty repairs.

When the new shop is ready and we start taking orders again, it will be for existing customers only. No new customers. This includes established dealers. If you want one of our cameras and you have not done business with us, you will have to go through a dealer. The dealer will contact
us and ask if we are taking orders. We will only accept a limited number of orders per month. The cameras will be considerably more expensive and there will be fewer of them. The product line will also be smaller.

We will not accept deposits of any kind from any customer or dealer.

I hope this serves to answer your questions.

Ron Wisner

[Ron Wisner]

You are just making yourself look bad, Dan. Cheap shot.

[Gregory Gomez]

Thanks Ron for your candid response.

Let me give you an equally candid reply. Let’s see, you will be offering much less, charging considerably more, and refusing new customers who do not use a dealer. Well, that seems like the American Way. Why even try being competitive, right?

Instead of worrying about the future of film, you should be more concerned about the future of your business and the good will you have obviously lost.

Going forward, I guess Shen Hao will quickly be taking over a considerable portion of the large format market share, and I guess he’s not afraid to work hard or to charge a fair price either. Perhaps that’s the Chinese Way? I think Shen Hao will be putting you out of business in the not so distant future.

[Ron Wisner]

Let’s see, you will be offering much less, charging considerably more, and refusing new customers who do not use a dealer. Well, that seems like the American Way. Why even try being competitive, right?

Mr. Gomez,
Yes, I believe you have it. I am not interested in more market. I am interested in less market. I am interested in servicing my old customers who have stuck by me and whom I owe warranty support. I am interested in getting back to craftsmanship. Those who want it will pay for it. I am interested in taking more pictures.

[Anthony Hampton]

Well, I am certainly glad I came across this thread. I have wanted to get a LF camera for some time now. I had my mind set on one of the Wisner models, both for their beautiful craftsmanship and their quality. Unfortunately, I didn't get to order one before the website indicated no new orders would be accepted. In my opinion, Mr. Wisner is making a mistake. There are probably quite a few like me that would have been dedicated Wisner customers if we were able to purchase sooner.

[David Karp]

Anthony,

If you still want a Wisner, I believe that Midwest Photo Exchange (MPEX.com) has some in stock. They may be used, but that should not matter if they are in good shape. Talk to Jim when you call, he is the most knowledgeable and a really good guy. I have purchased a lot of used equipment from him. It has all been at least as good as described, probably better.

Quality Camera in Atlanta is another store that sells Wisner, or at least they did in the past. There have been good reviews on this store, but my only experience was to buy a rail for my old Cambo from them.

Of course, there are also other choices, like a Canham, Lotus, or Ebony.