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View Full Version : Schneider Super Symmar 80mm XL status question.



Henry Ambrose
7-Apr-2019, 19:17
I bought one back when they were introduced and it was one of my favorites, but sold it when I quit photography as a job. Over time I have seen comments about problems with haze. Did this affect all the 80mm lenses or just some range that can be identified? Can the problem be repaired?

Please fill me in - I may want to buy another one. Or maybe not.

onnect17
7-Apr-2019, 22:10
Interesting. I own one and the glass seems quite clear. The box reads 80-0002 so perhaps there’re more than one version.

Trying to focus fully open is a pain so I use it at 5.6


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Heroique
8-Apr-2019, 11:54
Did this affect all the 80mm lenses or just some range that can be identified?

As far as I can tell, the haze issue affected both the 80mm and 110mm lenses with the same symptoms and similar time frame.

I’ve noticed, generally, that 110mm owners have reported the malady on lenses bought new in the early-to-mid 2000’s, but I may not have a perfect understanding of which 110mm lenses carry the highest risk. I've never come across serial number ranges to avoid.

From what I know about symptoms of either lens, if you look through the front of a stricken lens, the whitish, cloud-like (“cumulus”) haze might typically appear halfway between the center of the lens and the filter threads, and spread slowly over time, moving & lengthening in a circular path (concentric w/ the filter threads). The growth of the haze is a slow process, and can take a few years to become plainly conspicuous. This is for properly used and stored lenses.

* Here's the good news: If the 80mm or 110mm lens is clear today, I believe it likely enjoys a future-safe condition.

Richard Wasserman
8-Apr-2019, 12:41
My 110mm Super Symmar developed haze and I brought it to Bob Watkins at Precision Camera. He cleaned it for a nominal fee and it’s been fine since then-about 2 years.

Jac@stafford.net
8-Apr-2019, 12:56
My 110mm Super Symmar developed haze and I brought it to Bob Watkins at Precision Camera. He cleaned it for a nominal fee and it’s been fine since then-about 2 years.

Do you think it helps service because you live within reasonable driving distance? Really, I would drive a long way if it helped. TIA

Peter Lewin
8-Apr-2019, 14:16
Just took a look at my 80 XL (serial 14922107) and it looks fine, no haze. I bought it new from Badger a long time ago, can't remember the year. But that implies that not every XL lens suffered from "Schneideritis."

Henry Ambrose
8-Apr-2019, 14:52
For some reason I remember talk about the XLs having a particular problem. Sounds like the occasional "schneideritis" is all it is. The one I owned was bought new and was nothing but wonderful for the years I owned and used it. I am open to more comments if anyone has something to add.

Oren Grad
8-Apr-2019, 16:28
"Schneideritis" is a term usually used to refer to flaking of the black coating on the inside surface of the optical cells. This is different:

https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?94746-110mm-Super-Symma-Hazer%97Schneider-Drops-the-Ball

https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?97102-Schneider-defective-products

https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?9823-Super-Symmar-XL-80mm-haze-on-glass

https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?15123-Schneider-Super-Symmar-XL-series-haze-and-fog-problems

Henry Ambrose
8-Apr-2019, 18:12
Thank you, Oren.

I forgot to not rely on the forum search feature and missed those threads, but I guess that means that I did correctly remember a problem with the lenses.

So, how’s the 72 Super Angulon XL? Reliable? Dependable? I sure liked the size and very nice fall off of the 80, but maybe its not to be.

Richard Wasserman
8-Apr-2019, 18:54
Do you think it helps service because you live within reasonable driving distance? Really, I would drive a long way if it helped. TIA

I'm sure Bob W. does equal quality work no matter how the items arrive at his shop. Of course it's fun to go there in person to see the goodies he's working on and chat with him. Be sure to let me know if you do decide to make the trip so we can meet up.

JMO
8-Apr-2019, 19:26
+1 for Richard's advice about Bob Watkins and his service, and also if you might like to visit as I have 3-4 times.

Bernice Loui
8-Apr-2019, 20:04
Previously mentioned:

"Have one of the first five 110mm & 150mm SSXL imported to the US. The technical sales guy told the story of this first group of SSXL having hand ground all glass Aspheric elements, about the late 1990's. This was due the demand on delivery and technical problems with making the uber-precise moulded Aspherical element for production. It appears the problems with the 110mm SSXL corresponds with the time-frame when Schneider made the change from hand ground Aspheric to uber-precision moulded Aspheric element. This appears to have happened about 2000 or ?

The two (110mm & 150mm) first hand built Aspheric element lenses from this batch of SSXLs here has never had any problems, they are both excellent performers in every way. As for light fall off, this is a problem inherent in wide angle LF lenses, the solution is apply the proper center filter and continue on."

https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?149059-110XL-Fog-Issue-Serial-Range




Bernice

swmcl
9-Apr-2019, 02:30
My 110mm lost its ability to focus. No matter where I placed the lens it wouldn't focus. So eventually I had to send it from Australia to California and the official Schneider factory. They re-cemented it and cleaned it etc. As far as I know it is still OK (I haven't used it in a while...) but I will admit to being a little apprehensive every time I take it out.

I'm not actually very confident about Schneider in general with this lens and the Shneideritis and all ...

Bernice Loui
9-Apr-2019, 08:34
Fujinons develop Fuji-itis, which is much the same as Schneideritis, appears to be much lesser discussed due to the popularity of Fujinon LF lenses?

This problem of _itis appears to be failure of the lens element edge coating, not the same as lens adhesive failure and does not have the same optical effects as adhesive failure which can be serious compared to lens element edge coating failure which is mostly minor to not much effect at all.

*Not proper to single out Schneider for problem of this sort as they are not the only ones with optics that have developed this problem.

As for edge coating, there are a large number of Zeiss microscope eye pieces and other microscope optics that do not have any kind of edge coating-treatment... and there years of Zeiss microscope production with optical adhesive failure across their entire offering of production of microscope optics. This is well known among microscope enthusiast-collectors.


Bernice





I'm not actually very confident about Schneider in general with this lens and the Shneideritis and all ...

Henry Ambrose
10-Apr-2019, 16:30
So...
Would it seem safe to buy a clean lens and expect it to continue that way?

rdeloe
10-Apr-2019, 17:39
Fujinons develop Fuji-itis, which is much the same as Schneideritis, appears to be much lesser discussed due to the popularity of Fujinon LF lenses?

This problem of _itis appears to be failure of the lens element edge coating, not the same as lens adhesive failure and does not have the same optical effects as adhesive failure which can be serious compared to lens element edge coating failure which is mostly minor to not much effect at all.

*Not proper to single out Schneider for problem of this sort as they are not the only ones with optics that have developed this problem.

As for edge coating, there are a large number of Zeiss microscope eye pieces and other microscope optics that do not have any kind of edge coating-treatment... and there years of Zeiss microscope production with optical adhesive failure across their entire offering of production of microscope optics. This is well known among microscope enthusiast-collectors.
Bernice

I see lots of edge coating problems in Fuji lenses. Both mine have it, as do many I see for sale on the auction site. I haven't looked as closely at other brands because I've mostly been shopping for Fujinon. Anyway, I don't notice any impact from the problem.

Oren Grad
10-Apr-2019, 18:31
So...
Would it seem safe to buy a clean lens and expect it to continue that way?

Nobody (other than perhaps Schneider, and they're not talking) has hard data on the behavior over time of a representative sample of these lenses, that would enable us to know what the odds of further trouble actually are at this point. The "if it's lasted this long without a problem it's likely to be fine" reasoning is plausible, but there's no way to know for sure. So it's a matter of how risk-averse you are, how much money you'd have at stake, and how badly you want a lens with those exact specifications.

swmcl
11-Apr-2019, 18:02
Bernice,

I respect you and what you've said in response to my post.

However, if I may speak to issues in another way...

I have a Nikkor zoom lens, an 80-200 f2.8. I have had a bunch of fungus issues with my 35mm gear lately and wanted things looked at. The official Nikon dealer in my state capital of Brisbane looked at the lens which also had a focus problem and told me it was unable to be repaired. The focus ring wouldn't turn properly and there was a bunch of condensate in the front element. Along with other lenses, one of which was a heavily fungus infected 135mm f2 specialty lens, they wanted me to essentially replace my lenses with new product at extreme cost.

I managed to find a guy who repaired camera equipment in the same city. A guy who has been doing his thing from a basement at his home for 40 years. He took all my affected lenses and cleaned them. Now they are like new.

The focusing problem was because Nikon stuck a circuit board inside the lens with a double-sided tape !! The tape failed and the pcb prevented the focus mechanism from working correctly. The Dutchman who repaired the lens glued it into place with a reliable Locktite product. He reckons it will now never fail. The dishonest Nikon authorised agent is completely discredited.

The reality is that my hard-earned dollars do not buy me product maturity (both design and manufacture) at any price. What on earth was Nikon thinking ? Why is it that a very costly Schneider lens cant be glued with stable glues ? The risk of poor product can never be eliminated no matter how much we pay. Yet we expect so much more from our shining lights on the hill. They could eliminate many of these issues for the cost of a better glue or paint etc. in the first place and they've been at the game for long enough to know what works and what doesn't or shouldn't. The desire for a quick or recurring buck is all that people and companies want.

Rgds.

Dan Fromm
12-Apr-2019, 06:43
Why is it that a very costly Schneider lens cant be glued with stable glues ?

Fair question. Synthetic cement problems afflicted a number of lens makers. In particular, Rodenstock and Voigtlaender lenses made from (guess, the start date may be later) the late 1950s to the early 1970s (another guess) suffer separations. I have a small pile of Apo-Skopars and a 58/5.6 Grandagon with severe "rings of fire."

I b'lieve, might be mistaken, that when the makers didn't know that their new adhesives would be troublesome. And I suspect that they didn't do accelerated life testing.

About Schneideritis. I'm a fan of Boyer lenses, have a pile. It should be called Boyeritis.

Your Nikon story is appalling. Nikon is a member of the Mitsubishi group. My father spent some time with Mitsubishi Electric's turbine generator group in the early '50s, teaching them Westinghouse trade secrets. He came home very impressed with Mitsubishi's adoption of "Deming thought." That Nikon seems to have abandoned Deming's ideas is very upsetting.

Pfsor
12-Apr-2019, 07:23
... He came home very impressed with Mitsubishi's adoption of "Deming thought." That Nikon seems to have abandoned Deming's ideas is very upsetting.

Indeed, some people could get sleeping disorder from it. :)
But back to the OP's question. The answer is that the glue was an innovative product and did not have the historical time behind it before it started to be used. And no, not everything can be tested on artificial ageing. Even manufacturers learn from their mistakes. You too have learned to walk that way. That's how progress works. Looking at the process 50 year later you should not say - why didn't they know it like we do today? Because we have learned it thanks to them! So, instead of complaining - send a letter of thanks to Schneider! And buy their lenses! :)

Bernice Loui
12-Apr-2019, 07:56
Not the same as the Nikon problem. Problems with adhesive out gassing corrosive stuff is common and must be considered for some designs where this is important.

Nikon has a history as a microscope manufacture. Do not think or believe their microscope optics are exempt from optical adhesive problems or other potential problems inherent with this technology. In the case of modern camera stuff that has been combined with electronics, there are many more details that can go very wrong. Getting them to work well, last the test of time, cost and more are all balanced in various ways in the resulting production product. A consumer or "Pro" lens that might cost say $3000 is not going to be the same as a Angenieux zoom lens that cost $100,000 or a Canon, Fujinon HDTV wide range zoom lens costing $100,000 or the lens used on disposable film cameras from back in the day? It comes down to market needs and crafting a product that can best meet market expectations and needs of those users for a given cost.

Nikon has move on to being a major Semiconductor process equipment provider, their cameras are mostly secondary these days. And yes, Nikon still makes microscopes, good ones to excellent ones.

What is quite remarkable is the optical offerings today on modern cameras at their market cost. While they are in many ways most difficult to not repairable due to their construction or availably of replacement parts or materials used, question becomes how long should any lens last? Have a few Rapid Rectilinear that are at least one hundred years old the lens is quite knackered with aging effects on the optical glass. My take on service life of any lens, if the lens has provided a good and reasonable service life for it's cost. Good enough. I'm not expecting any lens or technical item to last indefinitely as all things can and will pass, Impermanence and change is a given reality.

Specific to the 80mm SSXL, find a good example, purchase it, enjoy it by creating expressive images, know Schneider can service-repair if needed for now. IMO, the SSXL is a wonderful LF lens, enjoy them much over the decades.

Optical adhesives are complex as they do have aging effects, refractive index needed to be compatible with the optical glass they are used with and more. They are subject to a wide variety of potential environmental effects and unknowns at the time of their application or manufacture. This is the way of technology. While there is a deep understanding among those who are deeply involved with technology, there are always a host of unknown factors that can and will surface over time.


Bernice




Bernice,

I respect you and what you've said in response to my post.

However, if I may speak to issues in another way...

I have a Nikkor zoom lens, an 80-200 f2.8. I have had a bunch of fungus issues with my 35mm gear lately and wanted things looked at. The official Nikon dealer in my state capital of Brisbane looked at the lens which also had a focus problem and told me it was unable to be repaired. The focus ring wouldn't turn properly and there was a bunch of condensate in the front element. Along with other lenses, one of which was a heavily fungus infected 135mm f2 specialty lens, they wanted me to essentially replace my lenses with new product at extreme cost.

I managed to find a guy who repaired camera equipment in the same city. A guy who has been doing his thing from a basement at his home for 40 years. He took all my affected lenses and cleaned them. Now they are like new.

The focusing problem was because Nikon stuck a circuit board inside the lens with a double-sided tape !! The tape failed and the pcb prevented the focus mechanism from working correctly. The Dutchman who repaired the lens glued it into place with a reliable Locktite product. He reckons it will now never fail. The dishonest Nikon authorised agent is completely discredited.

The reality is that my hard-earned dollars do not buy me product maturity (both design and manufacture) at any price. What on earth was Nikon thinking ? Why is it that a very costly Schneider lens cant be glued with stable glues ? The risk of poor product can never be eliminated no matter how much we pay. Yet we expect so much more from our shining lights on the hill. They could eliminate many of these issues for the cost of a better glue or paint etc. in the first place and they've been at the game for long enough to know what works and what doesn't or shouldn't. The desire for a quick or recurring buck is all that people and companies want.

Rgds.