Best value 90mm W/A lens value?

[Dave Dawson]

In a moment of madness I have bought a 5X4 Sinar Norma and intend to buy a 90mm f4.5 wide angle lens but am unsure if to go for a Nikon, Grandagon or super angulon.

Your thoughts please?

Obviously the price is a large factor in the selection.

Cheers Dave

[Willie]

http://www.hevanet.com/cperez/test/AngSSXL.html

A quick look will give you some information you may find helpful.
If you contemplate going to a larger format the Super Angulon XL does cover 4x10 negatives OK.
If staying with 4x5 any of those you list should be fine.

[Two23]

I've been using a Nikon 90mm f4.5 and have been very happy with it. Do make sure it will fit through your front standard though. I have to attach mine when the bellows are set to neutral.


Kent in SD

[Dave Dawson]

I've been using a Nikon 90mm f4.5 and have been very happy with it. Do make sure it will fit through your front standard though. I have to attach mine when the bellows are set to neutral.


Kent in SD

A very valid point....I should have mentioned that I intend to do mostly architecture photography so rising front will be used in most cases.

Keep your comments/thoughts coming!

Cheers Dave

[neil poulsen]

What's driving you towards the f4.5? (For example, if you're doing interior work, then the f4.5 probably makes sense.)

If you don't need the larger lens, the f8 is lighter and has the same image circle as most 90mm f5.6 lenses. (235mm @ f22.) Of course, the image circle is a little larger, 235mm @f16.

Both my 105mm SW and my 121mm SW (SA) are f8. So, I figured that I'd save on weight and traded my f5.6 SA 90mm for the f8 Nikon version.

Sinar Normas are beautifully machined cameras. Talk about precision! Of course, the Norma lensboards are large enough for the f4.5 optic. Other considerations might be whether or not you decide to use a reduction lensboard, or if your Norma bellows has a circular opening. (Or both.)

[Two23]

A very valid point....I should have mentioned that I intend to do mostly architecture photography so rising front will be used in most cases.

Keep your comments/thoughts coming!

Cheers Dave


Once the rear element is in, I have no problems.


Kent in SD

[Mark Sampson]

They're all more than good enough. Buy on condition and price.

[rdeloe]

They're all more than good enough. Buy on condition and price.

In most photography forums the OP's question would result in a fight to the death over which lens produced files with the most intense organic luminosity, or some other nonsense. One of the pleasures of large format photography is I don't have to read about the "Leica glow" or "Zeiss micro-contrast"! ;)

[Bob Salomon]

A very valid point....I should have mentioned that I intend to do mostly architecture photography so rising front will be used in most cases.

Keep your comments/thoughts coming!

Cheers Dave

Then you might find that you will need a center filter. The Germans made them the Japanese didn’t.

[Bernice Loui]

Hello Dave,

If you're planning to do architecture photography, get the Schneider XL and matching or close enough centric filter and a bag bellows for the Sinar. It is very possible large amounts of camera movement will be needed to achieve the image demands. This mean getting a lens with the largest image circle possible and the most camera movement out of the camera possible.

-Not just a question of best value, it becomes a question of what tools will meet the image requirement needs. Short term thinking of best value could result in discovering the imaging demands cannot be met by the lesser or "best value" lens which will result in a less than ideal image. Best value can be a trap unless every aspect of the image making goals are fully understood and how each aspect will affect the finished print.

*Schneider 90mm Super Angulon XL has a image circle of 259mm at f22 or 110 degrees of image circle by design.
https://www.schneideroptics.com/ecommerce/CatalogItemDetail.aspx?CID=168&IID=1840

*Center filter is likely needed to correct for light fall off at the extremes of camera movement and limit of lens image circle.

*Bag bellows is required to allow the Sinar Norma to fully utilize the image circle capability of the 90mm Super Angulon XL.



Bernice





A very valid point....I should have mentioned that I intend to do mostly architecture photography so rising front will be used in most cases.

Keep your comments/thoughts coming!

Cheers Dave

[Corran]

Bernice is right if you want/need to use excessive amounts of front rise, but the Nikkor 90mm f/8 is pretty close in terms of image circle.

When I first started LF, I did some architecture photography and on one church I wanted to photograph, my first lens, a Schneider 90mm f/8 Super Angulon MC, the image cut out before I had enough rise (hard black vignetting). I got a Nikkor 90mm f/8 soon after and at the same place, I was able to get it into the frame. Both these lenses claim 235mm image circle I believe, but from my test there I got more actual image from the Nikkor (some will debate the image quality, but in my photo the corners were just sky so it didn't matter). I now also own a 90mm f/5.6 XL. This monster has a 95mm filter thread (the previous lenses are 67mm) and is way heavier, for an image circle that is from the specs only 10% larger, but probably even less of a difference from the Nikkor from my experience.

On the other hand, I have seen some 90mm XL lenses sell for around the same price as the Nikkor, but that might've been a fluke. If you buy the Nikkor 90/8 it'll certainly serve you well and you can resell it easily if it doesn't work for you.

The actual best value for a 90mm lens for architecture though IMO is the Schneider Super Angulon 90mm f/8 - which can be found under $200 and will be just fine for most things, even architecture - it just has slightly less image circle. Back up or get higher and it's probably fine. Of course there will be times where you want the larger IC but it depends on what you are shooting whether or not that will matter for you generally.

[ottluuk]

Schneider's "Vintage Lens Data" webpage gives 216 mm image circle for the f/8 Super Angulon and 235 mm for the f/5.6 SA (non-XL).
Nikon's 90 mm f/8 is unusual in having as much coverage as the bigger f/5.6-4.5 models – most of the slower 90s have less.

[Corran]

Oops, maybe I misread a spec somewhere. If that's the case, it explains my early findings.

So it all depends ultimately on how much the OP thinks he will need extreme movements.

[MAubrey]

The f/6.8 Grandagon is also a solid compact compromise between the f/4.5/5.6's and the f/8's.

[Dave Dawson]

Thanks so far to all the replies (keep them coming) The problem is (as expected) that with all the recommendations I am confused as to which way to go!

I'm sure you will all agree that at the end of the day, it is down to what is available at the right price/condition at the time of purchase.

I am 'leaning' towards a 90mm Nikon. Does anyone know any 'lawful impediment' why I should not go down that road?
Cheers Dave

[Bob Salomon]

Thanks so far to all the replies (keep them coming) The problem is (as expected) that with all the recommendations I am confused as to which way to go!

I'm sure you will all agree that at the end of the day, it is down to what is available at the right price/condition at the time of purchase.

I am 'leaning' towards a 90mm Nikon. Does anyone know any 'lawful impediment' why I should not go down that road?
Cheers Dave

Go look at the MTF, distortion, color, fall off curves of the lenses, Dan Fromm has them on a site and then compare the curves to the recommendations that you see here. Remember, very few, if any posters, have personal experiences with all of the 4 major manufacturers 90mm lenses in all of their latest variations.
Since you have a Sinar you might also ask yourself why they chose Rodenstock for their Sinaron branded lenses.

[Corran]

I have used 90mm lenses from all 4. Not mentioned earlier is a Fujinon 90mm f/5.6 I had, and the Rodenstock 90mm f/6.8 I have that I use on a fixed-lens panorama camera.

The Nikkor 90mm f/8 is by far my most-used lens overall in 4x5. Hundreds of hundreds of sheets (if not thousands) have been shot with that lens. You absolutely cannot go wrong with it.

Whether or not some modern Rodenstock or whatever lens can get a few more lp/mm in the corners at specific apertures is absolutely irrelevant to me, and probably to most other photographers who make images in the real 3D world.

[Pere Casals]

I'd point that there is a 4th manufacturer... Fujinon SWD and SW 90 are also 1st class lenses.

The SW is cheap, those with inner lettering in the front are single coated, those with lettering in the outside are multi-coated and offered for around $150 + shipping.

Circles: https://www.largeformatphotography.info/lenses/LF4x5in.html

http://www.thalmann.com/largeformat/fujinon.htm



I am 'leaning' towards a 90mm Nikon. Does anyone know any 'lawful impediment' why I should not go down that road?

All four brands are very good, for ultimate resolving power you may find way more sample to sample variation than differences between manufacturers.


Two important things I'd consider is if shutter is in shape and return policy.

[djdister]

I don't think you can go wrong with most of the lenses mentioned here. Your actual budget and lens availability will introduce some reality into what you can get. I use a 90mm f/5.6 Super Angulon for 5x7 and 6x17cm roll film shots on the same camera, with great results.

[neil poulsen]

Thanks so far to all the replies (keep them coming) The problem is (as expected) that with all the recommendations I am confused as to which way to go! . . .

In that case, consider beginning with the Nikon 90mm f8. It's the least expensive, lightest option, that is none the less, an excellent optic with a substantial image circle.

If you have trouble focusing because the ground glass is too dim, then move up to the f4.5 Nikon. With the f8, you can also get an idea of whether or not you need the image circle of an XL. The XL is a huge lens that requires large filters. Personally, I would get an XL, only if there were no other choice.

[Dan Fromm]

I just took a look on eBay. At the moment, the least expensive modern 90/8 lenses from, in alphabetical order, Fuji, Nikon, Schneider and Rodenstock are all Fujinons. OP, go Fuji and don't look back.

OP, if you can wait, the 90/8 Ilex Acugon is nearly identical to the 90/8 SA and usually sells for less than the Fujinons. None on offer now, though.

[Bob Salomon]

I just took a look on eBay. At the moment, the least expensive modern 90/8 lenses from, in alphabetical order, Fuji, Nikon, Schneider and Rodenstock are all Fujinons. OP, go Fuji and don't look back.

OP, if you can wait, the 90/8 Ilex Acugon is nearly identical to the 90/8 SA and usually sells for less than the Fujinons. None on offer now, though.

You referring to the 90mm 6.8 rather then f8 from Rodenstock, aren’t you?

[Daniel Unkefer]

Twenty some years ago I was shooting Architecture, for architectural clients and publication. My lens choices at the time, were the Rodenstock 90mm F4.5 Grandagon, and the 115mm f6.8 Rodenstock Grandagon. I was shooting 4x5 Norma, with Fuji Daylight and Tungsten E6 for the most part.

Now I my retirement I have an entire set of chrome Schneider Norma Super Angulons, and for the most part find them entirely satisfactory. I do have center filters but seldom find the need for them shooting in B&W.

[Dan Fromm]

You referring to the 90mm 6.8 rather then f8 from Rodenstock, aren’t you?

All Rodenstock 90s, Bob. I sorted by price+shipping. I mean, delivered price is what should matter to a buyer.

[Bob Salomon]

All Rodenstock 90s, Bob. I sorted by price+shipping. I mean, delivered price is what should matter to a buyer.

You mean price over performance? Somebody doing architecture probably is not doing it as a hobby.

[Corran]

Sure they are. The architecture thread here is 238 pages. Do you think even 1% of those images are anything but hobby images? FWIW, one image I posted there, taken on 4x5 film, was delivered to a client I had for architecture photography.

Besides which, as has already been said, there's hardly any performance difference between any modern 90mm f/whatever lens from the Big 4.

[Bob Salomon]

Sure they are. The architecture thread here is 238 pages. Do you think even 1% of those images are anything but hobby images? FWIW, one image I posted there, taken on 4x5 film, was delivered to a client I had for architecture photography.

Besides which, as has already been said, there's hardly any performance difference between any modern 90mm f/whatever lens from the Big 4.

Hardly is no difference!

[Corran]

In the popular online "LF Lens Test" site often quoted here, one 50-year-old 90mm f/6.8 Angulon tested better than a Nikkor 90mm f/8 at f/22. The issue I have with formalized tests is they are not done in real-world conditions generally. Anyway, performance on all of these newer lenses are virtually identical. It's all splitting hairs. And how many folks are printing upwards of 10x enlargements, where whatever minuscule differences between samples or lenses would be seen?

The biggest thing IMO is getting newer models with multi-coating. My first 90mm f/8 SA was MC, but now I have a couple older single-coated ones. Contrast is clearly lessened, a more specific cause for concern if mixing with other MC lenses as your contrast range will change a bit depending on the lens.

[Dan Fromm]

You mean price over performance? Somebody doing architecture probably is not doing it as a hobby.

Do you mean to say that 90/8 Fujinons aren't good enough to use?

[Two23]

You mean price over performance? Somebody doing architecture probably is not doing it as a hobby.


Well, actually I'm just shooting for fun. I do plan to begin submitting articles to South Dakota Magazine one of these days, but the pay from that won't even buy me a tank of gas. Pretty much all of the lenses made in the past 40 years are good. My 1912 240mm Dagor in Compound even stands up well to my 2002 Nikon M300 f9.:)


Kent in SD

[djdister]

You mean price over performance? Somebody doing architecture probably is not doing it as a hobby.


Gee, no one shoots architecture for fun? Someone should have told me that, like years ago...

For fun

189479

For fun

189480

For fun

189481

All shot on 5x7, just for fun...

[ottluuk]

On the EU side at least, some of the best deals in lenses seem to be lenses mounted on shutterless Sinar DB boards – especially the rebranded Sinarons for some reason. The catch of course is that you also need the not-so-cheap Sinar behind the lens shutter to use them. But if the OP intends to build an extended set of lenses for the Norma in the long run, it's another thing worth considering.

[Pere Casals]

Sinar DB boards – especially the rebranded Sinarons for some reason.

The reason is that no shutter is included, and shutters may be more expensive than the glasses, simply because shutters in shape are scarcer than glasses.

Sinar, Technika, etc selected glass had an additional QC. Always it had been a sample to sample variation, those mentioned stamps are not a drawback at all.

While a great studio solution, a Sinar/Copal shutter may not be suitable outdoors, because of the lower max speed. Wind moves vegetation, hair, etc and we may want 1/200.

[Daniel Unkefer]

"In a moment of madness I have bought a 5X4 Sinar Norma and intend to buy a 90mm f4.5 wide angle lens but am unsure if to go for a Nikon, Grandagon or super angulon. Your thoughts please? Obviously the price is a large factor in the selection. Cheers Dave"

Dave,
I have over a dozen special Norma lenses with "rabbit ears". Some have shutters and some in barrel mount. I have three Norma mechanical shutters. The 90mm F8 Super Angulon was available in this way. The advantage is OPERATING SPEED. With Norma cables interconnecting the front and rear of the camera, you can operate the all the Norma controls from the rear, no more going back and forth (to the front of the camera) to operate and check settings. As Sinar rightly pointed out, nearly as fast to operate as a reflex camera! When the light hitting a building is fleeting, this is a distinct advantage! The mechanical shutter's fastest speed is 1/50. I have never needed faster than that in all my years. What is useful are the really really long mechanical speeds on the shutter. You wouldn't know that unless you actually operate one for a while........... The Norma has a vast truly impressive system. Why not take advantage of it? Finest quality you can buy :) There is more to expressive photography than stats and charts. You take off in the direction that the equipment takes you.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4267/34996525620_5da83acf9c_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/VjwkNL)WL Surveillance 70mm Hartblei 1006 120 Biogon ADOX Borax (https://flic.kr/p/VjwkNL) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

My 5x7 Norma camera complete with all Norma Automatic cables, in my studio.




Last year I finished this homemade Sinar Norma Handy. I love using this camera. It utilizes the 65mm F8 chrome Super Angulon and is cobbled together with Norma parts.

Low cost and it does a beautiful job.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4692/39396426651_b3262020f7_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/232jZ6n)Sinar Handy with Strap and Cable Extension (https://flic.kr/p/232jZ6n) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

[Daniel Unkefer]

Dave,
Here is one of my Sinar Norma 90mm F8 Super Angulon lenses. I have a couple of these. This one is not in a shutter (barrel mounted) so it would require the Sinar Norma mechanical shutter. I also have a similar Norma lens, in a Compur shutter (which will also work with the Mechanical shutter). Also shown is a Schneider 90mm F8 Center Filter, made specifically for this lens.

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7894/46791730114_724593fb41_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2ehPRau)Sinar Norma 90mm F8 Sup Ang with Center Filter (https://flic.kr/p/2ehPRau) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

I think I paid about $150 for this lens...........

[EdSawyer]

tl;dr: The Nikon 90mm f/8 is the lens to beat for 90mm on 4x5. Significantly greater resolution than any/all others, as borne out by empirical objective testing. The smaller size and reasonable price are an extra bonus!

[Bernice Loui]

Been using a Sinar shutter outdoors and indoors since the mid-1980's, think the fastest shutter speed of 1/50 on the Norma version and 1/60 on the later version has not been used more than the number of fingers on one hand over all those decades.

The far more useful shutter speeds are the speeds below one second. If large apertures are needed, apply ND filters as needed to achieve the shutter speed required. The lack of shutter speeds below one second on Copal-Ilex-Compur in lens shutters have been more of a problem than the shutter speed limit of 1/50 or 1/60 on the Sinar shutter.

If stopping action/motion is needed, a view camera is not the ideal tool.



Bernice




While a great studio solution, a Sinar/Copal shutter may not be suitable outdoors, because of the lower max speed. Wind moves vegetation, hair, etc and we may want 1/200.

[Corran]

As you are fond of saying Bernice - it depends on how/what you shoot!

[Pere Casals]

If stopping action/motion is needed, a view camera is not the ideal tool.

Bernice, this is true for wet plate, but with TMY or HP5 we can shot 1/400 f/16 in Sunny conditions, and 1/200 f/11 in open shadows. At marked 1/400 my Compurs are around 1/300 actual.

It is true that most shots are made much slower... but with ISO 400 film we may freeze the wind effects if we want that...



tl;dr: The Nikon 90mm f/8 is the lens to beat for 90mm on 4x5. Significantly greater resolution than any/all others, as borne out by empirical objective testing. The smaller size and reasonable price are an extra bonus!

For sure that the Nikon is excellent, but it is not alone.

If you take a look at member Arne Croell tests: https://www.arnecroell.com/lenstests.pdf

He tested ten 90mm lenses, one is the Nikon SW sporting > 80 lp/mm in the center and 40 in the corner at f/16. But the super Angulon XL and the Geronar WA (!!!) are equally good. The antique lenses (1950s and 60s) do have lower ratings.

Suprisingly the Geronar WA it's also good performer, with 80 in the center at f/16 and 34 in the corner.

Of course there is a sample to sample variation, and all three are diffraction limited by f/22

[rdeloe]

In a moment of madness I have bought a 5X4 Sinar Norma and intend to buy a 90mm f4.5 wide angle lens but am unsure if to go for a Nikon, Grandagon or super angulon.

Your thoughts please?

Obviously the price is a large factor in the selection.

Cheers Dave


I once took a close look at the Norma, and along the way I discovered a wonderful resource prepared by Philip Morgan called the "Rough Guide to Sinar Normal CLA". I can't find the file anymore on the Internet, but I have a copy of the PDF. If you're interested, send me a PM and I'll email a copy. It's step-by-step with pictures.

[Pere Casals]

I once took a close look at the Norma, and along the way I discovered a wonderful resource prepared by Philip Morgan called the "Rough Guide to Sinar Normal CLA". I can't find the file anymore on the Internet, but I have a copy of the PDF. If you're interested, send me a PM and I'll email a copy. It's step-by-step with pictures.

I use that manual with my norma, it can be found at www.archive.org :
https://web.archive.org/web/20140728034706/http://www.philipmorgan.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/RoughGuideSinarNormaCLA.pdf

[Daniel Unkefer]

I use that manual with my norma, it can be found at www.archive.org :
https://web.archive.org/web/20140728034706/http://www.philipmorgan.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/RoughGuideSinarNormaCLA.pdf

Yes!

A Warning! DO NOT attempt to work on your Norma without consulting Philip's excellent concise guide.

What you will do if you don't, is permanently mess it up! That could become expensive fast.

[Hmuessig]

tl;dr: The Nikon 90mm f/8 is the lens to beat for 90mm on 4x5. Significantly greater resolution than any/all others, as borne out by empirical objective testing. The smaller size and reasonable price are an extra bonus!

Second that. The Nikon 90mm f/8 is a stunning lens. Kerry Thalman is right to include it in his "classics" list. Their f/4.5 is not bad but given a choice I'd go with the f/8. Yeh the ground glass image is darker but for architectural interiors either a flashlight aimed back at the camera or a laser pointer makes focusing pretty easy. And as others have pointed out it has the image circle of the faster lenses -- all except the Schneider XL.

[Dave Dawson]

It seems that all the comments have now stopped......Thanks to all that contributed. I am leaning towards the Nikkor 90mm f8 lens but notice that the second hand price is virtually the same as the f4.5 so it will a case of finding one in good condition at a good price at time of purchase.

Cheers Dave

[EdSawyer]

They should not be too hard to find. I have 2, both in great shape. I would think anywhere in the $300-400 range (or less) is a fair price.

[ottluuk]

... I am leaning towards the Nikkor 90mm f8 lens but notice that the second hand price is virtually the same as the f4.5 so it will a case of finding one in good condition at a good price at time of purchase.


I think it's still worth reminding that if you happen to spot a good deal on a clean f/4.5 – 5.6 lens from Fuji, Nikon, Rodenstock or Schneider, any of them is still a good solid choice. The f/8 lenses are of course smaller and lighter but on a full-size monorail like the Norma – well, it's not going to be a very light and compact set one way or the other.
There may be some differences in sharpness and contrast from one model to another but they are all high end lenses designed for professional use. How much one can actually exploit the advantage of a slightly better lens will depend on the whole workflow – materials used, scanner/enlarger performance, final print size etc.