Rodinal Alternatives?

[John Cook]

Various online discussions about the pending demise of Agfa and in particular the loss of Rodinal have mentioned Photographers Formulary’s version of that developer as an alternative.

My impression has always been that Agfa kept the chemical formula secret and therefore these “imitation” Rodinals were only educated guesses, not exact copies.

So, some questions arise within my little gray cells:

1. Anyone have extensive experience with the Formulary brew, and just how comparable is it? This would, of course, involve various dilution and agitation routines.

2. Would not the “original pre-war formula” Calbe R09 from JandC be a closer match to modern Rodinal?

3. Or is it time to move on to one of the lesser-touted but equally-wondrous potions, such as the FX-1 family, Neofin Blau, FX-39 or (my old favorite) Ethol T.E.C.?

[ronald moravec]

RO9 is the original formula and is somewhat more concentrated. Don`t panic when you open the bottle and it is ink black. Upon dilution, it turns almost the same color. I could not separate the two on final result.

Formulary`s version was reportedly hard to mix by ONE SINGLE person on photonet. Remember there are all kinds of newbies there.

[J. P. Mose]

It will be a sad day when they announce the discontinuation of Rodinal. I use it for 90% of my work. I will be interested in hearing if the R09, available from J&C Photo and Photographers Formulary is as good (or better).

[tim atherton]

"It will be a sad day when they announce the discontinuation of Rodinal."

well, if Agfa actually is going under, closing business by the end of the year, then they have sort of announced it

[Joseph O'Neil]

"well, if Agfa actually is going under, closing business by the end of the year, then they have sort of announced it"

There was a Simpsons Halloween episode where Bart chastises Homer for the term "Zombies" and says they prefer to be called "living impaired."

Perhaps we should refer to Rodinal not as discontinued, which is obviously an offence term (top somebody out there, I'm sure ), but rather a "sales impaired" or "distributionally challenged" developer.

:)

On a slightly more serious topic, did anybody check out the Photographers Formulary website - thier version of Rodinal - called FORMULARY PARAMINOPHENOL - is already "Out of Stock" and "Temporarily Discontinued" when you actually click on the item itself.

What the heck did all you guys do - go out panic shopping and deplete everything they had in stock? Grrrrrr......

Anyhow, J and C shows their R 09 in stock, but it is liquid form. I dunnow about the rest of you guys, but shipping chemistry - wet liquids - as compared to dry powder is sometiems a pain in the butt. Especially up here in Canada, cross border, in those post 9/11 days - grrr ( again).

joe

[John Cook]

A few years back, a German photographer who sounded like a crotchety old chemist who really knew his business did a thorough critique of the manufacturing history and chemical properties of Calbe R09 on photo.net.

His assertion was that R09 was, indeed, the original pre-war formula for Rodinal.

After WWII, the Western factories of Agfa were taken over by the Allies and retained the “Agfa” trademark. The former Agfa factories left behind the Iron Curtain had to use another trade name.

According to this gentleman, the developer formula as produced in the West was changed in order to reduce the cost of manufacture. Thus the difference between the modern Western version of Rodinal and the original formula, now manufactured and sold as Calbe R09.

He claimed, in great detail, that the original chemical formula remained superior. The cost savings achieved with the new Rodinal took their toll in image quality.

I have no way to validate these lengthy posts, and sadly they seem to have been deleted. This man and the forum moderator got into some sort of pi**ing contest about censorship and his contributions were circumcised.

I am even sorrier that I can’t recall his name. I did send him an e-mail which he most courteously answered, saying that he was getting too old and too busy to waste his time with these moderators. Our loss, I’m afraid.

After all this, however, I see no great improvement nor great difference with personal testing of R09 over Rodinal, other than very slight tinkering with time and dilution.

I believe Calbe R09 is the most logical choice for an identical Rodinal replacement.

[Donald Qualls]

If all else fails, you can convert acetaminophen ("Tylenol", or what's called "paracetamol" in Europe or occasionally (n-)acetyl-para-aminophenol, APAP, here in the States) into para-aminophenol in sodium hydroxide solution. I've read a procedure somewhere for making a developer starting with commercial "non-aspirin pain reliever" tablets -- and unlike a meth lab, you'd probably get through six months on a single bottle of the pills. I don't know if it would be possible to extract the (relatively) pure p-aminophenol from the solution, however and it takes something like 12 hours for the reaction to complete in solution, so you'd have to mix your developer the previous afternoon to use it in the morning.



Process here (http://photobanter.com/showpost.php?p=132332&postcount=1)



I wouldn't expect Formulary to be out of stock for too long, though -- they just have to weigh out more packets and fill/label/wrap the boxes, unless they're out of stock on one of the raw ingredients.

[Gregory Gomez]

Does anyone know the shelf life of unopened Rodinal or RO9 film developers?

I think the strategy for anyone wishing to use these fine film developers is to buy a huge quantity. It won't be long before we see both Ilford and Agfa go out of business.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I am really sick and tried of seeing film-based supplies and cameras disappear from the market.

I am of the mind to go out and stockpile not only film, but paper and developing supplies knowing full well that such supplies will become increasing more difficult to purchase in the future.

If black and white photography should disappear only to be replaced by digital, I think I will take up painting instead. A least painting supplies are still readily available.

And since I'm having a temper tantrum, why do companies like Kodak and Agfa doggedly hold on to their chemical formulas knowing that they will never produce them again? Why not sell the rights so we photographers can continue shooting?

I think the answer is very clear: these companies don't give a damn about their former customers.

[John_4185]

Does anyone know the shelf life of unopened Rodinal or RO9 film developers? [...]

Forever. No kidding. Stock up.

And since I'm having a temper tantrum, why do companies like Kodak and Agfa doggedly hold on to their chemical formulas knowing that they will never produce them again? Why not sell the rights so we photographers can continue shooting?

I rather doubt there are any secrets left to keep. What we need to know is known.

[tim atherton]

"I rather doubt there are any secrets left to keep. What we need to know is known."

So whats the formula for Neutol WA...?

[Gregory Gomez]

"I rather doubt there are any secrets left to keep. What we need to know is known."

Thanks for the information about the shelf life.

But I am not so sure what you mean by your last comment. Like, wow, that went right over my head.

[John_4185]

Tim Atherton Neutol WA...?

:) Call me a skeptic (I've heard worse), but I find it hard to believe there is any special virtue to any developer other than, perhaps staining ones. Is Neutol WA one of them?

Truly, other than the stainers(sic), in all my young life of sixty years, D-76 and Rodinal work very well for all purposes... although I have two gallons of FG7 I'd like to try, but probably won't.

[Gregory Gomez]

The story gets sadder.

I called Keeble & Shuchat, a prominent local photo dealer, about the plight of Agfa. What I was told was this: unless someone buys Agfa, lock, stock, and barrel by December 31, 2005, Agfa plans to close their doors.

So far only a few companies, Kodak is one of them, has shown a interested in buying a portion of Agfa's business, but not all, and that was unacceptable to Agfa.

So unless there is an eleventh-hour solution, we can say good-by to Agfa by the end of the year.

[Gregory Gomez]

Well...

I just called Adolph Gasser, and was told the same story. It seems grim to me. Also Adolph Gasser went on to say that Agfa was unable or unwilling to meet their prior, agreed upon shipment of film and developer to this venerable photo dealer.

[John_4185]

So far only a few companies, Kodak is one of them, has shown a interested in buying a portion of Agfa's business,

Do not take my angst lightly. I don't believe Kodak would buy any film works for any reason except to bury them alive, to kill them, to see them gone from the world. Kodak is out of the analog world except in the 35mm motion picture business, and (quite surprisingly) in the 8mm (first) and 16mm film business, with the later in dire straits already. We are dead in the eyes of Kodak. Let's move on.

[Oren Grad]

I expext that the portion of AgfaPhoto that buyers like Photo-Me, Kodak and Fuji have been sniffing around is their minilab business, not the B&W products.

I'm not sure why AgfaPhoto is insisting on sale of its entire business as a unit if they're resigned to a total liquidation anyway - perhaps that will change as the clock ticks down - but so long as they do, it's hard to envision a plausible scenario under which the B&W film and paper business is rescued.

[Oren Grad]

expext=expect, at least at certain hours of the day... < sigh >

[John_4185]

I'm not sure why AgfaPhoto is insisting on sale of its entire business as a unit if they're resigned to a total liquidation anyway

Germany has some labor issues that might seem peculiar to Americans. Killing a whole division at once might relieve the company of having to deal with plants full of workers under pay with nothing to do. No kidding. Look at Volkswagen where they have production facilities way oversized for their current market so that certain plants are full of workers who have nothing to do but collect paychecks for just showing up and doing nothing. Labor and management have been tightly coupled since shortly after WWII and only complete elimination will empty the plants.

Dunno. Just a thought.

[Wayne]

Rod Inal

1891-2005

RIP

[Jay Lnch]

I tried Photographers Formulary’s version once and did not like it at all. Very flat.....

[Gregory Gomez]

I went out yesterday and bought up the remaining supply of Rodinal at Keeble & Shuchat and Adolph Gasser.

I now have enough developer on hand to develop 4,000 6x9cm negatives and over 16,600 35mm negatives, all for about $500.

I'm now in the process of triple wrapping each bottle with aluminum foil, followed by a double layer of plastic, to minimize interaction with outside air. I will then refrigerate the Rodinal bottles at 60 degrees Fahrenheit.

With any luck, I will have enough Rodinal to last the rest of my life.

If HC-110 has similar keeping properties as Rodinal, I will most likely stockpile it as well.

Next, I plan to accumulate Tri-X film in 35mm, 120, and 4x5 sheet sizes. It won't be long before Kodak will stop making these products in their pursuit of the digital unicorn.

[Wayne]

I'm doing all that, AND wrapping my house in aluminum foil too.

[Kevin Crisp]

I'm not so sure Rodinal has keeping properties similar to HC110. In a fridge, even in a mostly empty bottle, HC110 hangs in there for many years. The slop on the side of the bottle will turn a little brown but the yellow syrup doesn't and remains at full strength. I have had Rodinal go bad in 3 to 4 years even when refrigerated in the unopened factory bottle. I've extended that a bit by putting it into small amber glass bottles (see Specialty Bottle web site, they're in Seattle) with no air and keeping those in the fridge. I guess whether it lasts "the rest of your life" depends on some other circumstances as well.

[John_4185]

I'm now in the process of triple wrapping each bottle with aluminum foil, followed by a double layer of plastic, to minimize interaction with outside air.

A bit excessive. If the foil is to block light, then one will do. Plastic is not necessarily air-proof. You might be surprised that some plastic is designed to pass air and other gasses. Chances are the Rodinal bottles are fine, as-is.

You could decant the chemistry to brown bottles. They make them bottles expressed caps that push out the last of the air when you screw them down.

[Sal Santamaura]

Mr. Ingolf Marzenski of A&O Group, the firm that purchased AgfaPhoto's minilab and chemical business, just informed me that Rodinal and Neutol WA are among the black and white chemicals they will continue to manufacture.