PDA

View Full Version : Schneider-Kreuznach G-Claron 150mm f11



Thierry Schreiner
22-Mar-2019, 07:35
Hi to all,

Just wanted to know if anybody of you has come across a Schneider-Kreuznach G-Claron 150mm f11 ? (lens marked 1:11/150)


I just got one lying in front of me. Serial number 11 787 795. So supposedly it should be a Dagor type.

Any info is appreciated.


Thank you in advance for your input and best regards


Thierry Schreiner

ic-racer
22-Mar-2019, 07:38
Can you post a picture of it? What is the coverage?

Thierry Schreiner
22-Mar-2019, 08:00
Hi,

189084

No idea yet about the coverage, as i just got the lens today.

Outside diameter of the front and rear lens group: 31,5mm.
No filter thread. It came in a late series 150mm G-Claron barrel.

Mounting thread of the front and rear lens group: 29,5mm. So it could fit a size 0 shutter.




Best regards

Dan Fromm
22-Mar-2019, 08:36
Thierry, you could ask Schneider. They've replied to similar inquiries.

Have you counted reflections? That's the best way to tell a dagor type from a plasmat type.

Cheers,

Dan

Luis-F-S
22-Mar-2019, 08:47
My Dagor type G-Claron is f9. Has the Dagor reflections.

L

Dan Fromm
22-Mar-2019, 09:01
My Dagor type G-Claron is f9. Has the Dagor reflections.

L

Focal length and serial number?

lassethomas
17-Jun-2020, 10:43
Just received a few lenses that I found for a fair price at an auction site.

Among them a Schneider G-Claron 1:11/150.

204839
204840

Probably from an old repro camera, it came in a barrel mount.
It's very small and light and fits nicely in a #0 shutter.

204841

Compared to a 150 mm f9 G-Claron it is smaller (if that's possible :)), and could well be a half stop slower seen from the front.

I've tried to find some info on the net but came up with more or less nothing. There is a G-Claron WA that is f/11 but this is not marked as such.
And the WA seems to be larger.

Any info or knowledge is appreciated

Dan Fromm
17-Jun-2020, 12:07
There are two versions of G-Clarons, the earlier dagor types and the later plasmat types.

I have a dagor type 150/9 G-Claron with a higher serial number than yours so yours should be a dagor type. There are two ways to check. The dagor type's front filter threads are M32.5x0.5, the plasmat type's are M35.5x0.5. A dagor type cell will show two strong reflections (from air-glass interfaces) and two weak reflections (from glass-cement-glass interfaces). A plasmat type cell will show four strong reflections and one weak. The weak reflections can be hard to see.

I suspect, could be mistaken, that your "11" is an engraving error.

I also suspect that your lens' cells have been remounted in a newer barrel. Your barrel is the new type that was introduced with the plasmat type G-Clarons. But I could be mistaken about when the new type barrel came in.

lassethomas
17-Jun-2020, 13:14
There are two versions of G-Clarons, the earlier dagor types and the later plasmat types.

I have a dagor type 150/9 G-Claron with a higher serial number than yours so yours should be a dagor type. There are two ways to check. The dagor type's front filter threads are M32.5x0.5, the plasmat type's are M35.5x0.5. A dagor type cell will show two strong reflections (from air-glass interfaces) and two weak reflections (from glass-cement-glass interfaces). A plasmat type cell will show four strong reflections and one weak. The weak reflections can be hard to see.

I suspect, could be mistaken, that your "11" is an engraving error.

I also suspect that your lens' cells have been remounted in a newer barrel. Your barrel is the new type that was introduced with the plasmat type G-Clarons. But I could be mistaken about when the new type barrel came in.

Well, you are right about it being a dagor type. Two strong and two week reflections.
I also have a 150/9 plasmat type with 35.5 filter threads, and the difference in reflections are obvious.

Not sure about "11" being an engraving error though. It's about half a stop slower than the 150/9 plasmat I have. Measured from the entrance.
And there are no filter threads at all.

Here are both

204848

It's not important of course. I just was a bit curious.
Probably to dim to focus probably, but size and weight are very small.
So far no time to test it on the camera, but i'll take it for a test run soon.

ic-racer
17-Jun-2020, 13:57
About a year ago someone posted questions about one like that. I figured he was using it as an enlarger lens, since it was in a barrel, but he never replied back as to how it worked.

https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?151294-Schneider-Kreuznach-G-Claron-150mm-f11&p=1490502&viewfull=1#post1490502

lassethomas
17-Jun-2020, 14:55
About a year ago someone posted questions about one like that. I figured he was using it as an enlarger lens, since it was in a barrel, but he never replied back as to how it worked.

https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?151294-Schneider-Kreuznach-G-Claron-150mm-f11&p=1490502&viewfull=1#post1490502

Thanks,

But as you say he never replied back.

Robert Opheim
17-Jun-2020, 15:09
I looks like F/9 is shown on the side of the front elements for the setting of the aperture. When looking thru the lens (if this is true) is there a visible aperture change you can see?

lassethomas
17-Jun-2020, 15:42
I looks like F/9 is shown on the side of the front elements for the setting of the aperture. When looking thru the lens (if this is true) is there a visible aperture change you can see?

Yes, the barrel reads f9, but the engraving on the front element says 1:11. And yes, there is about a third to half stop difference, compared with the 150/9, when measured from the entrance (with a caliper).

lassethomas
17-Jun-2020, 15:48
Well, perhaps I misunderstood you.

Yes, mounted in the barrel, even att f9 on the barrel markings I can see the blades making a clear hexagon. It is never wide open. So the scale seems out of calibration.
The barrel was probably not intended for the lens

Dan Fromm
17-Jun-2020, 15:55
lasse, measure the diameter of the entrance pupil with the aperture indicator at 9 and at 11. Divide the measured diameters into 150 and tell us what you got.

lassethomas
17-Jun-2020, 16:21
lasse, measure the diameter of the entrance pupil with the aperture indicator at 9 and at 11. Divide the measured diameters into 150 and tell us what you got.

f9 on the barrel gets me f/9.8
f11 on the barrel gets me f/12
f16 -> f17,8

Seems to a third stop off.

As I have a G-Claron 150mm/f9 I measured it in the same barrel:

f9 on the barrel gets me f/9.3
f11 on the barrel gets me f/11.1
f16 -> f16.3

The lens is defiantly not a f/11, but I don't think the barrel was originally calibrated for it

lassethomas
17-Jun-2020, 16:24
Also measured it without aperture and it came out as f/9

Dan Fromm
17-Jun-2020, 16:59
The lens is defiantly not a f/11, but I don't think the barrel was originally calibrated for it

As I suggested, older lens in newer barrel.

Steve Goldstein
30-Mar-2022, 06:00
From time to time I see a 150mm f/11 G-Claron offered for sale. In every case a photo shows that the front lens cell is clearly engraved with f/11, not f/9. There's one offered on eBay right now with a serial number (11693xxx) that places its manufacture around 1971.

My Nov 1967, Sep 1976, May 1982, and Aug 1998 Schneider literature PDFs all list the 150mm as an f/9 lens. The G-Claron-WA was an f/11 lens, but it was offerered only in 210mm, 240mm, and 270mm as far as I know (I only have the May 1982 info sheet on these) and in every image I've seen it had the letters "WA" in its markings.

Does anyone know more about these f/11 150mm G-Clarons?

xkaes
30-Mar-2022, 07:32
I have two Schneider brochures that list the G-Clarons -- 150mm to 355mm. All are f9-64, 6/4, flat-field APO design with 64 degree coverage for close-up work.

I see nothing about "WA" lenses. Maybe it was an early or short-lived variant. Seems less likely to be a literature error -- like with Fuji literature.

Is there something in special about this lens?

Fuji had an early 150mm W f6.3. It was slower than their other W lenses -- f5.6 -- because of the design. Maybe the same sort of thing was a limitation on the early G-Claron -- at 150mm they could only get to f11?????

Oren Grad
30-Mar-2022, 08:41
I see nothing about "WA" lenses.

See attached.

Steve Goldstein
30-Mar-2022, 09:04
Thanks Oren. That’s the same version as the one I have.

My earliest literature dates from 1967 and lists the 150 as f/9, while the lens in question dates (from its serial number) to around 1971. This doesn’t lend much support to the “earlier 150s could only get to f/11” theory, I’m afraid.

Jason Greenberg Motamedi
30-Mar-2022, 09:26
No knowledge, but I do observe that the barrel is marked at f9 rather than f11.

Dan Fromm
30-Mar-2022, 09:32
I have two Schneider brochures that list the G-Clarons -- 150mm to 355mm. All are f9-64, 6/4, flat-field APO design with 64 degree coverage for close-up work.

I see nothing about "WA" lenses. Maybe it was an early or short-lived variant. Seems less likely to be a literature error -- like with Fuji literature.

Is there something in special about this lens?

Fuji had an early 150mm W f6.3. It was slower than their other W lenses -- f5.6 -- because of the design. Maybe the same sort of thing was a limitation on the early G-Claron -- at 150mm they could only get to f11?????

In post #3 above Mr. Grad addressed the f/11 WA G-Clarons.

Early f/9 G-Clarons were dagor types. They were replaced in the 1960s by f/9 plasmat types. archive.org is currently off-line for maintenance. When it comes back, go to http://web.archive.org/web/20100922053809/http://www.schneiderkreuznach.com/
archiv/archiv.htm to see the catalogs.

Steve, I think I found the lens you referred to. Auction #185363718449. The s/n makes it a dagor type. My copy of the dagor type catalog shows only f/9ers. I have no idea why it is engraved 1:11. The cells are in a modern G-Claron barrel. AFAIK, the change from dagor type to plasmat type was accompanied by a change in barrel design.

xkaes
30-Mar-2022, 09:55
Thanks Oren. That’s the same version as the one I have.

My earliest literature dates from 1967 and lists the 150 as f/9, while the lens in question dates (from its serial number) to around 1971. This doesn’t lend much support to the “earlier 150s could only get to f/11” theory, I’m afraid.

Does anyone have actual knowledge, not speculation, about this seemingly oddball lens?

The PDF says the WA f11 lenses are a 4/4 design, not 6/4 like the f9 versions. Unfortunately, it doesn't say anything about the angle of coverage -- which I would guess is less. The WA lenses may or may not have been an earlier line of lenses, but it was definitely a different version -- and explains the slower f-stop. Typically, faster lenses, or lenses with more coverage, have more elements.

Oren Grad
30-Mar-2022, 11:32
I've merged three threads on the same topic. A tough one - we still don't have an answer!

Dan Fromm
30-Mar-2022, 12:08
The PDF says the WA f11 lenses are a 4/4 design, not 6/4 like the f9 versions. Unfortunately, it doesn't say anything about the angle of coverage -- which I would guess is less. The WA lenses may or may not have been an earlier line of lenses, but it was definitely a different version -- and explains the slower f-stop. Typically, faster lenses, or lenses with more coverage, have more elements.

Look here: http://schneiderkreuznach.com/archiv/pdf/g_claron_wa.pdf

Coverage is given at the bottom of p. 2

lassethomas
30-Mar-2022, 13:06
Look here: http://schneiderkreuznach.com/archiv/pdf/g_claron_wa.pdf

Coverage is given at the bottom of p. 2

I just get a 404 on that link

xkaes
30-Mar-2022, 13:13
Here's a more complete spec sheet. Perhaps this is what Dan is referring to, but it does not have the 150mm.

https://jbhphoto.com/store/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/g-claronwa01.pdf

Dan Fromm
30-Mar-2022, 13:55
Here's a more complete spec sheet. Perhaps this is what Dan is referring to, but it does not have the 150mm.

https://jbhphoto.com/store/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/g-claronwa01.pdf

There never was a 150/11 WA G-Claron. 210, 240 and 270. That's all.

For the WA G-Claron brochure I referred to in post #27 above, go to http://web.archive.org/web/20100922053809/http://www.schneiderkreuznach.com/archiv/archiv.htm and look around. FWIW, I got a 404 when I clicked on the link in post #27 above. Sorry 'bout that.

xkaes
30-Mar-2022, 15:47
From time to time I see a 150mm f/11 G-Claron offered for sale. In every case a photo shows that the front lens cell is clearly engraved with f/11, not f/9. There's one offered on eBay right now with a serial number (11693xxx) that places its manufacture around 1971.

My Nov 1967, Sep 1976, May 1982, and Aug 1998 Schneider literature PDFs all list the 150mm as an f/9 lens. The G-Claron-WA was an f/11 lens, but it was offerered only in 210mm, 240mm, and 270mm as far as I know (I only have the May 1982 info sheet on these) and in every image I've seen it had the letters "WA" in its markings.

Does anyone know more about these f/11 150mm G-Clarons?


So why are we having the conversation?

lassethomas
30-Mar-2022, 15:50
There never was a 150/11 WA G-Claron. 210, 240 and 270. That's all.


Well, yes agreed.
But there are obviously dagor type G-Claron 150mm lenses engraved as "1:11/150" on the front cell. In a different casing compared with the f/9 version and with no filter thread (got one). see post #7.
Even though they're not mentioned in any still existing literature.
Whether they really are f11 or f9 is another matter.

Never got round the try mine out. It's really not the most pressing question mark to straighten.

lassethomas
30-Mar-2022, 15:55
So why are we having the conversation?

It's a sort of a mystery. Not an important or especially thrilling one. But mysteries are always intriguing, aren't they?

Dan Fromm
30-Mar-2022, 16:23
So why are we having the conversation?

Anomalies prompt questions. I think that the question you quoted in post #31 above answered your question.

Sal Santamaura
30-Mar-2022, 16:40
....there are obviously dagor type G-Claron 150mm lenses engraved as "1:11/150" on the front cell. In a different casing compared with the f/9 version and with no filter thread (got one). see post #7.
Even though they're not mentioned in any still existing literature.
Whether they really are f11 or f9 is another matter...

Perhaps the engraving refers to a magnification ratio rather than maximum aperture? Maybe that's why the notation isn't "f/11." :)

Dan Fromm
30-Mar-2022, 16:52
Perhaps the engraving refers to a magnification ratio rather than maximum aperture? Maybe that's why the notation isn't "f/11." :)

1:some other number has often been used to indicate relative aperture. In this case, 1:11 means f/11.

Paul Ewins
30-Mar-2022, 16:57
I've checked the production lists (Hartmut Thiele's "Grosses Fabrikationbusch Schneider-Kreuznach Band II") and there are multiple batches for both a 150/9 and 150/11 G-Claron produced in the 1970/71 period. These were regular sizes batches of 600 - 1000 lenses at a time with no mention of them being special orders. There is also quite a bit of prototype work going on with G-Clarons at this stage, and the first mention of the 150/11 is a batch of three prototypes on 6 July 1970. At a guess 1970/71 is the changeover point from the Dagor to the Plasmat and what we see are the last of the 150/9 Dagors alongside a 150/11 Plasmat fitted into the Dagor barrels. This then gives way to 150/9 Plasmats in a new barrel which becomes the standard from this point. Again, this is a guess.

FWIW the first mention of a WA Dagor is a prototype 270/6.3 G-Claron WA in September 1972 and then a 210/11 WA Claron in August 1973.

xkaes
30-Mar-2022, 17:23
I've checked the production lists (Hartmut Thiele's "Grosses Fabrikationbusch Schneider-Kreuznach Band II") and there are multiple batches for both a 150/9 and 150/11 G-Claron produced in the 1970/71 period. These were regular sizes batches of 600 - 1000 lenses at a time with no mention of them being special orders.

And there are some other examples of lenses that appeared in small numbers during the evolution of an old line to a new line -- and the numbers produced were so limited that they never made it into the official advertising brochures. With Fuji this apparently happened between some of the SW lenses switching to the NSW series, and some of the W lenses moving to the NW line-up. And then the "So what IS this lens?" questions pop up.

Drew Wiley
30-Mar-2022, 19:57
I've never seen one of those, but it's probably no error. There were different series of G-Clarons, depending on intended application, some in barrel for limited graphics applications, such as small "stat" copy cameras needing a wide angle lens. The f/9 plasmat design GC's equipped in shutter are wonderful all the way from closeup to infinity; but I'd personally avoid the WA for general photographic usage.

arri
31-Mar-2022, 01:03
The G-Claron 11/150mm is made of four elements in two cemented groups, similar to the Zeiss Protar, not the Doppel Protar, or the Rodenstock Perigon.
The different ist that the G-Claron is 100% symmetrical.
Angle of view is around 85°.
Very sharp when stoped down to f/22
Like all G-Claron it is apochromatic cerrected.
Guess Schneider tried to offer a wide angle lens for reprographic usage. The less speed is not a problem in reprographic usage.

The following six element G-Cs and G-Cs WA with air spaced elements are better corrected for colour work, upcoming more and more end of the 1960th.
I guess that is the reason why the fully cemented 11/150mm when only made in very small charges.

This is a well known process, Schneider changed the Angulon to the Super Angulon and the 6.8 Symmar to the 5.6 Symmar in the same way, both lens designs were renewed with airspaced elements.

I have a G-Claron 11/150 in use and I removed the glass elements for a cleaning, that´s why I´am knowing it is a four element lens and the reason is like I descriped.

It is a very interessting lens, I have a small Schneider collection with some prototypes and this is a gem of it.

xkaes
31-Mar-2022, 05:54
I have a G-Claron 11/150 in use and I removed the glass elements for a cleaning, that´s why I´am knowing it is a four element lens and the reason is like I descriped..

But is it a WA G-Claron?

Drew Wiley
31-Mar-2022, 10:03
Could you post a picture of where the WA designation is printed, or at least describe the position, if on the same element as the 150 focal length designation or not? There is always the hypothetical possibility of a mismatched set.

lassethomas
31-Mar-2022, 11:13
The G-Claron 11/150mm is made of four elements in two cemented groups, similar to the Zeiss Protar, not the Doppel Protar, or the Rodenstock Perigon.
The different ist that the G-Claron is 100% symmetrical.
Angle of view is around 85°.
Very sharp when stoped down to f/22
Like all G-Claron it is apochromatic cerrected.
Guess Schneider tried to offer a wide angle lens for reprographic usage. The less speed is not a problem in reprographic usage.

The following six element G-Cs and G-Cs WA with air spaced elements are better corrected for colour work, upcoming more and more end of the 1960th.
I guess that is the reason why the fully cemented 11/150mm when only made in very small charges.

This is a well known process, Schneider changed the Angulon to the Super Angulon and the 6.8 Symmar to the 5.6 Symmar in the same way, both lens designs were renewed with airspaced elements.

I have a G-Claron 11/150 in use and I removed the glass elements for a cleaning, that´s why I´am knowing it is a four element lens and the reason is like I descriped.

It is a very interessting lens, I have a small Schneider collection with some prototypes and this is a gem of it.

If what you say is true about angle of view it should cover 5x7, even with a little movement.
Interesting. This I'll have to try

arri
31-Mar-2022, 11:30
But is it a WA G-Claron?

I think so because of the reduced speed, the only four lens elements and the large angle of view. But it has not the air spaced disign like the later G-Claron WA lenses, that it the different.

It is not engraved with "WA"

Schneider offered the airspaced 210mm G-Claron WA as the shortest focus. Maybe it were the only one the market accepted or needed. So it were senseless to offer a 150mm WA Claron when no one needed it.

Today the G-Claron lenses are much more interesting for us photographers and so the 11/150mm lens is interessting as an extreme small and light weight lens exspecially for 5x7" format.

Not really an important lens because of its very limitated availability.

Drew Wiley
31-Mar-2022, 11:48
It is entirely possible there were even custom design application tweaks. G-Claron was unfortunately a blanket MARKETING name for a whole category of close-range corrected lenses originally designed for retrographic use, but which subsequently branched off to cumulatively embrace several distinct optical designs. A few months ago I was looking at two side by side used 270's, both in shutter, one a WA, and the other, a typical late GC. They looked different even outwardly; and unfortunately, were both way too abused, scratched, and fogged up to interest me personally. The official brochure/spec catalog for even the last of the series still gave very conservative process camera specifications per image circle, angle of view, etc, rather than the far more liberal possibilities in general purpose photography like most of Scnheider's other LF lenses.

Paul Ewins
31-Mar-2022, 19:19
Arri, what's the serial number for your lens? I'm just wondering where it fits in the chronology.

arri
7-Apr-2022, 01:21
It is out of the same charge, only the last two numbers are different, I have the serial # 11 693 155 and it came in a f/9 barrel. The modern style one which were used from Schneider since the early 1980th, I guess.

Maybe the original barrel were one without an aperture because of the reduced speed of f/11

Reproduction lenses having the best performance at full open, in the graphic copy work, ratio 1:1, the stopping down is only for avoid a less of sharpness in case of a bended object.

In use as a taking lens it is necessary to stop it down for a better image quality because this lenses are not computed for oo work.

I used this lens for some pictures and at f/22 in 4x5" it is a pretty sharp and an perfect lens for a small and light weight wooden camera.

Paul Ewins
7-Apr-2022, 17:54
Thanks for that. It was from a batch of 600 lenses, so definitely not a prototype. Regardless of the barrel that it came in, we can probably regard the four element construction as typical for the 150/11 which makes it a very interesting departure from the rest of the G Claron range.