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pgk
20-Mar-2019, 04:17
As posted on an UK LF website:

Wray were another of those British lens manufacturers who started making photographic lenses somewhere around the 1880s - maybe - the exact date is vague. I own several Wray camera lenses; all are barrel lenses in brass, and all share the same mounting thread which is also used by some Taylor Hobson lenses so I think it is one of the RPS 'standard' threads. This is handy because it means that I have been able to make an adapter to mount them all in front of a Copal 3 shutter.
Three are Rapid Rectilinear lenses for 5" x 4" of around 6" focal length. One uses Waterhouse Stops, one uses a lever iris diaphragm and one uses a rotating aperture controlled diaphragm. All take the same sized cap - though I only have one for all three. I'll try to post images at some point, however the most interesting of these is the rotating aperture because it is an extremely early lens (s/n 1XX) and has clearly had the rotating aperture control retro-fitted because part of the engraving has been truncated and cut in half when the control was fitted. By the look of it, this was probably carried out by Wray as it is a very good match in appearance with other parts of these lenses. I'm fascinated to think that it was possible to have such major surgery carried out to what was a 'standard' lens and it shows how much such items were valued. Wray built some wide-angles during the same period (WAL - Wide-Angle Landscape, and WAR - Wide-Angle Rectilinear) which I'm looking for in the same thread mount. Any further information or comments would be welcomed.

https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/images/attach/jpg.gif

mdarnton
20-Mar-2019, 06:41
In these days the idea of custom work and updating from a big factory seems strange, but it used to be very common. Leica sold a service of updating their old models with current features, often very extensively, and may even still do this with things like switching viewfinders from various stock models. Graflex would make you whatever you wanted, as long as they could assemble it from a range of standard parts using their normal cabinetry methods.

andrewch59
20-Mar-2019, 16:57
I have a 10X12 f8 ser 1854, which takes waterhouse stops, one of the first lenses I owned.
189051

pgk
21-Mar-2019, 02:56
Thanks. I'd be interested in collating some early serial numbers and trying to work out their dates. As ever there is poor information about when Wray started making photographic lenses. Later their Symmetrical appears on numerous cameras and is plentiful so I assume that having found a good income generator they went into mass production. Their early lenses look almost like they were one-offs or if not were made to customers requirements and specifications with regard to the aperture system fitted.

Andrew Plume
21-Mar-2019, 04:39
You've probably seen this:-

http://www.earlyphotography.co.uk/site/SRL_lenses.html#Wray

regards

Andrew

pgk
21-Mar-2019, 05:21
Thanks Andrew I have. My minimal researching suggests that Wray initially produced to order because as with some other makers, each early lens seems to have been different to many others. I still can't find out precisely when Wray started building photographic lenses; there are varying estimates from the 1870s to late 1880s. The RPS Photographic Journal (https://archive.rps.org) has two relevant entries though. The first refers to an exhibition at 5A Pall Mall East in London in October 1886 at which "apparatus on the table" included lenses by W Wray. The second from January 1888 has a reference to someone stating that he was using a Wray Wide-angle 6x7 (inches I assume and referring to wide open coverage?) to cover 10" x 8" stopped down and another to cover 10" x 12". So the latest date from which Wray had started making photographic lenses would presumably be 1886, although it could still be earlier.

Wray seem to have been instrumental in promoting aperture diaphragms by all account except oddly, many of their early lenses are built for Waterhouse Stops or use wheel apertures. I do wonder if photographic lenses were made sporadically from somewhere in the 1880s until they finally became a profitable arm of the business and were then produced in much larger numbers?

goamules
21-Mar-2019, 09:09
That's interesting to know about their threads matching some TTH. I know about their Patented thread, where the flange is marked and it takes exactly 3 turns to screw in. I don't know about a "RPS standard thread". Is there anything written on that you can link to?

pgk
21-Mar-2019, 10:12
I'm still looking into the RPS threads information - searching through the Journal takes time. Try: http://www.earlyphotography.co.uk/site/lens_mounts.html and go down to 'Threads'. It appears that Wray too adopted a 'standard' thread system and it was used for a long time because I have lenses from Wray from the 1880s and from 1920ish, and from TTH from around the 1950s, all of which use the same flange thread. The proposed 1881 RPS thread fits in with the start up of manufacturing photographic lenses by Wray just after this date because it would certainly make sense to be an early adopter of a new 'standard' which might potentially become very widespread.

goamules
21-Mar-2019, 10:49
All the major British lens makers had standardized threads by the 1870s. You can use the same flanges for many types of Dallmeyers, for instance. However, I never heard they were standardized among each other. Also, the TTH was a patented thread. It was so marked and I've NEVER seen any other maker that used it, at least during the 19th or first half of the 20th century. If your Wray's happen to fit, it's surprising, but probably accidental.

pgk
21-Mar-2019, 11:10
I think TTH patented the chamfered start up of the thread. Many threads used were of 'Whitworth' type so there could have been coincidental use, but I suspect not in this case. The British camera and optical manufacturers were somewhat incestuous with many interlinking relationships. Somewhere TTH and Wray probably had some connection somewhere I'd guess and the spin off could well have been some degree on commonality of thread usage. FWIW I have come across almost certain coincidental thread usage - the thread used for the front of one Grubb lens happened to be the same as the flange thread on a Ross lens - probably a pure coincidence because its not used on any other Grubb lens I've come across as yet (again probably 'Whitworth' type threads).

goamules
21-Mar-2019, 11:26
Yeah, I have a 1880s Hermagis petzval that fits a 1950s Wollesak Raptor flange! If something is close it can feel "right", but probably wasn't a conscious collaboration.

Steven Tribe
27-Mar-2019, 02:11
... Wray seem to have been instrumental in promoting aperture diaphragms by all account except oddly, many of their early lenses are built for Waterhouse Stops or use wheel apertures. I do wonder if photographic lenses were made sporadically from somewhere in the 1880s until they finally became a profitable arm of the business and were then produced in much larger numbers?

I think that Wray were always a marginal company. Lancaster would have been a fierce competitor as far as pricing - and they had their own range of cameras to equip.

A lot of the early wide-angle designs had lens that were exceptionally close together. Enough space for a simple WH slot/stop or wheel stop mechanism to be mounted - but not for an iris system. Wray was also busy in the stereo pair market and there is a clear advantage in having ensured F settings with fixed wheel apertures. Many makers continued to use WH stops with their established designs, even after irises had become available. The isis design will always mean loss of a slight loss of speed which can be important for Petzvals. It will also always be more expensive in purchase and subject to catastrophic failures!

tonyowen
27-Mar-2019, 03:09
1] Early Photography web site section -> lenses -> lens mounts -> screw
Also
2] From Lens Collector's Vade Mecum
" There was some sort of informal agreement on threads in Victorian times, many coming in a 1.5inx28TPI
thread, and also a 2in one- but with serious problems of standardization so that fit is not to be relied on. (This
was probably due to Dallmeyer and Wray adopting a older Ross thread.) And many other threads were used,
eg. by Lancaster and Swift who had different standard sizes. By B.J. Photo. 25/05/1888 p331, there was a
demand for a Committee to look into a better and more standardized thread. The Photo News reports a
meeting on standards in 02/05/1890 p341, and says diameters of 1.5, 2.0, 2.5, 3.0in and 24 threads per in,
and then in 1in steps with 12 threads per inch, with the supply of adaptors to take smaller lenses into bigger
mounts were considered. The meeting included Mssrs Taylor, Beck, Swift, Dallmeyer, and others. By the next
meeting on 27/06/1890 p501, some 200 copies (an interesting figure!) of a circular with the suggestions had
been sent out to opticians in London and some 10 or 12 responded at a meeting. One point was that A.Ross's
smallest size was widely used and was about 1.5in (and the next 2in) and Mr Dallmeyer offered to find out the
exact specification (diameter, thread and pitch) for it, as some 100-120,000 lenses had been made in that size
by then. (Dallmeyer was a major international figure, and his figure of c.110,000 is a considered and useful
one, but will represent a considered estimate of the small lens market, ignoring Petzvals and other large
lenses.) The next meeting reported in 27/06/1890 p502, when Mr Dallmeyer announced that Mr Ross's 1.5in
was actually 1.513in and his 2in was actually 1.98in. Thus they were not really 1.5 or 2in as claimed. Add in
that other houses had no access to the originals, and relied on fitting their lenses to flanges purchased from
Ross's and that these were not of hardened metal and wore while in use, and the cause of the general lack of
interchangeability was obvious. After discussion, the meeting agreed to keep to inch sizes, in 1.0, 1.25, 1.5
and then by 0.25in increments to 2in and by 0.5in to 4in, and chose a 55° thread angle for ease of getting
Whitworth tools, and a rounded top to avoid binding if the thread were bruised, and finally chose a pitch of 24
TPI up to 3in, and above that 12 TPI with a series of adaptors from one to bigger sizes. (The 24TPI thread
would involve a deeper thread cut, now more acceptable as power machinery would probably be in use, as
were thicker barrel walls to accept it.) Notably it was Mr W. Taylor who discussed the gauges to maintain the
required standards subsequently. Essentially this confirmed and extended the existing RPS standards, which
were for 1.5, 2.0, 2.5, 3.0, 3.5, 4.0, 5.0in and had already been in use by Newton and Co, Reynolds and Co,
Suter, TTH and the London Stereoscopic Co. This is an interesting list as it suggests TTH were trend setters,
and it includes 2 names, Newton and Reynolds now largely forgotten, and a foreign make. (See also Amateur
Photo 29/12/1893, 05/01/1894) In the latter TTH say they prefer to cut the threads with a rather sharper bottom
than Whitworth so that contact with the other thread is only on the sloping thread wall and has less risk of
jamming, and bruising has less effect. They also initiated the use of a square cut end to the thread to engage
easily, and took in older lenses to retrofit this end. They mention some 20,000 TTH lenses as possibly
needing this change- this may be their production to that date. (also Amateur Photo 02/09/1892, p160).
In Europe, threads persisted as a different, partly metric series without so much standardization, except that
the Deckel/Compur shutters forced a standard in some respect on their cells and flanges, but makers were
slow to adopt them otherwise. The Leica used a metric diameter, 39mm but apparently a Whitworth form and
pitch of 26 TPI perhaps due to tooling supplies. Many European firms were using machine tools made in the
UK and used a mixture of metric diameters. and inch pitches as a result. Thus in remaking flanges, it is worth
considering the use of Imperial Whitworth tools even when the actual diameters are metric. This ceases to be
true later on- thus the later M42x 1mm was a truly metric thread and there will be others. Filter mounts are
normally in metric sizes and bayonets tend to be based on metric dimensions with corrections to allow
clearance to fit and turn. "

Regards
Tony

pgk
27-Mar-2019, 03:43
Thanks for this - interesting. FWIW the following about iris diaphragms might also prove to be of interest datewise regarding the adoption of iris diaphragms:

"THE PHOTOGRAPHIC JOURNAL. [JAN. 28, 1887]
Mr. CONRAD BECK exhibited some of his photographic lenses fitted with an Iris diaphragm of a most ingenious form, which ..... had only recently been applied to photographic lenses. This diaphragm consisted of a series of metal flaps fixed in the middle of the lens, working one behind another, and opening from a point to full aperture. actuated by a lever outside the lens mount, with graduated markings for retaining the size of the openings in accordance with the Society’s standards.
Mr. A. MACKIE remarked that this form of stop was introduced into photographic lenses some three years since .....
Mr. C. BECK also stated that the Iris diaphragm was mentioned in an old edition of Newton’s “ Optics.” By its introduction into large lenses, a considerable amount of weight in metal stops was avoided.
The CHAIRMAN said that if the diaphragm itself was not new, yet Mr. Beck had carried out the principle in a very perfect way, as now shown in its adaption to the lenses exhibited by him."

"The Photographic News [January 27 1888 Page 63]
Edinburgh Photographic Society
“Mr Forgan exhibited a rectilinear lens by Wray, which had been fitted with an iris diaphragm, being the first one of the kind turned out by this maker. Attention was called to the ease and convenience of touch which characterised it, and which made it quite apparent that this is the diaphragm of the future; …. It is not claimed that this is a new application of this diaphragm, but each maker who adopts it ought to be commended ….."

The lowest serial number of a lens clearly built by Wray and having a diaphragm almost certainly built into it at time of production s 12XX which makes sense. All earlier lenses have either Waterhouse or rotating wheel stops with my (the earliest I've come across) lens having been modified - although it is possible this was a factory trial lens or 'prototype' I suppose - I doubt we will ever know though unless someone unearths some records from Wray. In 1888 the additional cost of a diaphragm (where one could be fitted) was 15/- (0.75p) which loosely equates to something around £100ish today. Not a cheap option for what would have been seen as convenience which would explain why other aperture systems remained in use.

So the 1880s were an interesting time for British lens makers with old and new entering the photographic lens market (Wray ~1886, TTH ~1887, Swift ?, and so on) and innovations being extensively utilised. As far as I can tell Beck, Wray and TTH all ended up under the Rank Organisation umbrella (along with Hilger & Watts and others, and only TTH survived as a spin off although renamed as Cooke.