Sinar Norma 5x7 vs 4x5 dimensions?

[CreationBear]

I was wondering if anyone could provide a rough estimate of the dimensions of a Sinar Norma 5x7 with tapered bellows compared to a 4x5 Norma with its standard, straight bellows? (The 5x7 with a reducing back would of course be the more versatile system, but there's only so many cubes available in my pack!)

Any insights appreciated....

[Jeff Keller]

5x7 back is about 11"x11.5" (WxH - height from top of rail)
4x5 back is about 9.5" x 9.5"

They both use the same front standard

jeff

[CreationBear]

Excellent, very useful information--thanks!:)

[Bernice Loui]

4x5 to 5x7 increase in camera size is not much for almost twice as much film area.

Here are the 4x5 & 5x7 film backs end to end on the same rail:
188940

Side view:
188941


Bernice

[CreationBear]

4x5 to 5x7 increase in camera size is not much for almost twice as much film area.

Thanks, Bernice--the pictures are very helpful...and you're right, it's that "bang for your buck" question that I was trying to get a handle on. (Of course, that's a slippery slope that can lead a person to trying to carry way too much weight up the hill!:))

[Bernice Loui]

Difference in size-weight between a 4x5 Norma -vs- 5x7 Norma is not much, less than a pound and a few inches larger at the very most. Add to this, many lenses that work for 4x5 work on 5x7. Film holders are not much larger than 4x5 making the overall system not much larger than 4x5 for nearly twice the film area and fewer problems compared to 8x10. Then there are all the perks of the Sinar system from Sinar shutter to compatibility from Norma to P2 and more. It is truly a camera system that can be configure to image making needs of many, many, many challenges and needs.

Think:

4x5 = Baby Bear.

5x7 = Mama Bear.

8x10 = Papa Bear.


Mama bear was "just right"



:)
Bernice




Thanks, Bernice--the pictures are very helpful...and you're right, it's that "bang for your buck" question that I was trying to get a handle on. (Of course, that's a slippery slope that can lead a person to trying to carry way too much weight up the hill!:))

[CreationBear]

5x7 = Mama Bear.

And of course a sturdy Sinar extension rail would come in handy should I have occasion to whack one on the nose--our black bears literally fall out of trees on you down here in the Smokies.:)

At any rate, I'm just getting started in the LF world but I'm starting to appreciate the need of having at least one "precision" system--Sinar certainly seems to fit the bill. Thanks for the input!

[Jerry Bodine]

When thinking about 5x7, if you plan to print the negatives you may need a 5x7 enlarger (or contact print them). 5x7 enlargers are out there but not nearly as easy to find as 4x5.

Also, this link (http://www.cameraeccentric.com/html/info/sinar_1.html) to Norma Instruction Manual shows how to fold one up for transport; it can save a lot of "cubes" in the backpack. Look at Fig. 17 on p.12 and folding instructions on p.13.

[CreationBear]

Jerry-- great link, thanks! Definitely if the camera would be staying in the pack while I was traversing from point A to B, that would solve a lot of problems.:)

Otherwise, I did have a couple of other questions after falling into the Sinar rabbit hole this afternoon:

1.) Using the standard bellows (straight for the 4x5, tapered for the 5x7) what is the shortest focal length lens you can use and still have access to reasonable movements?

2.) Was there ever a tapered "standard" bellows for the 4x5 Norma? The reason I ask is that an American vendor that has a presence on the auction site has what looks to be a Norma in good shape, but with tapered rather than straight bellows.

At any rate, regarding 5x7--it might be the tail wagging the dog here, but in my case 5x7 definitely would push me into a hybrid workflow. Since I'm rather in the minority I think in that I don't really like the native format for landscapes (but love it for closer views) I wouldn't mind that too much.

[Drew Wiley]

Alas, although I coveted a 5X7 Norma, I stuck to 4x5 over the portability issue. I like to pull em right out of the pack nearly ready to use, and plop em right atop the Ries tripods. With 5x7, I'd have to either reconfigure it or get a custom pack built for my pack frames. But my 8x10 folder fits nicely in my same packs, so I wanted to standardize.

[CreationBear]

I like to pull em right out of the pack nearly ready to use, and plop em right atop the Ries tripods.

Thanks for the input, Drew--good light is definitely ephemeral up high! (And strange how it never seems to change back once it's gone...:)) At any rate, I could probably manage the 5x7 on its main rail in my old school Dana, though trying to keep anything less than an "expedition" load-out sorted is a challenge--cavernous packbag but a dearth of compression options, I'm afraid.

[Drew Wiley]

Well, they're modular, so you can have your cake and eat it too, meaning both a 4x5 and 5x7 system, if you can find all the components in good condition, and have enough budget. The tricky part will be finding a clean 5x7 bellows. I wouldn't opt for generic in this case. Or you can mix n match with later F and P parts if necessary. I just can't afford yet another format. I can always crop down 8x10 exposures into prints more like an oversized 5x7 rectangle if desired.

[Jerry Bodine]

Around 1970 I bought the 4x5 Expert and the 5x7 Expert; yes, the 4x5 included the tapered bellows, and as I recall I found the straight bellows limited movements with 90mm Super Angulon more than I liked; the tapered bellows was better but I gravitated to using the bag bellows mostly. For 5x7 the tapered bellows handled the movements fairly well with the 121mm Super Angulon (which covers 8x10 barely), but again I tended to use the bag bellows more. Bag bellows are versatile and have multiple uses as you can see in the link provided above. If you look for them be aware that there are two types: a) standard one, and b) one that's used with the Sinarsix meter and a probe allowing readings at the film plane. Straight bellows are also versatile and can double as a lens hood, supported by an auxiliary standard and the hex rod with bellows clop.

[CreationBear]

Well, they're modular, so you can have your cake and eat it too, meaning both a 4x5 and 5x7 system,.

Yes, a 4x5 reducing back would definitely be must, especially since I have access to 4x5 enlargers. (Still coming to terms with just what kind of output is most feasible...:))

Jerry--thanks so much for that information, it helps a lot. Up to this point, most of my shooting has been on the long end, so the 4x5's straight, 18" bellows would probably get the most use, but I'd definitely carry a bag bellows with me--on most trips, at least.:)

[Drew Wiley]

If you have a supplementary 4x5 back (not just a 4x5 reducing frame for 5x7), you can select from all kinds of Sinar as well as Horseman 4x5 bellows. For example, I have a 28 inch Horseman box bellows that doesn't sag and need an intermediate standard like you'd need with Sinar box bellows. But the original Norma 4x5 tapered bellows is the real cat's meow for this format. Works over a wider range of focal lengths, both shorter and longer, than the subsequent box-style bellows. I don't know why they stopped offering them, except that they would have been conspicuously more expensive to make. You can't just slice off a given section of long box folds, assembly-line style. Each one was its own project.

[CreationBear]

But the original Norma 4x5 tapered bellows is the real cat's meow for this format.

That's a significant bellows draw with that Horseman--much wind and your rig would end up on Modoc Plateau.:)

At any rate, thanks for the heads-up on the tapered bellows--I got in touch with the vendor and was surprised that they were the same 18" as the straight version (though they wouldn't go out on a limb as to whether they were actually OEM.) Otherwise, I could definitely start filling gear bins with Sinar bits-and-bobs...no doubt there would be a curveball or two, but the system does seem to have an admirable consistency over all those many decades.

[Drew Wiley]

Well, I have had not only the Sinar, but my 8x10 folder replete with larger Ries tripod, lifted up by and dropped as much as thirty feet away by sudden Spring gusts - luckily in every instance landing on soft foliage without any damage. I did once get a Sinar rear standard post broken by a horrific wind gust in a mountain storm; but was able to lock the broken section down and complete the trip. The modularity of the Sinar system made it easy to permanently repair. So nowadays, when in doubt concerning strong winds, I bring quicker MF gear instead, minus any kite bellows, of course. But most of my life, I've preferred working with longer lenses, so have gotten well attuned to how to work with long bellows extensions. It the vibrations of gusts that affect image sharpness. I've actually taken very precise view camera shots in sustained winds in excess of 70 mph, in one case lying on the ground (actually, lake ice) to use my own body as extra tripod weight, to keep the camera from flying off, and tripping the shot with an especially long cable release.

[CreationBear]

sustained winds in excess of 70 mph.

Ha, if my essential load out ever included a Bibler or Hilleberg, I'd probably have to start thinking pretty seriously about my business model...:) Good to know it can be done, though!