Justify the acquiring of a new Linhof Technika?

[Greg]

So retired 10+ years ago. Stopped shooting for clients about 5 years ago. Sold off a lot of my FX Digital equipment in 2018 that I no longer used. Now am seriously considering acquiring a new 4x5 Technika to be used with probably 4 of my current 4x5 lenses. The resulting system would be easily backpackable for day hikes. Have owned and used several 4x5 and 5x7 Technikas in the past, so definitely am familiar with the brand and the quality of Linhof's construction and engineering.

So now am trying to justify acquiring a new 4x5 Technika. B&H lists Technikas as still being available with a waiting time. Master "classic" for $9,411.99 and Master Technika 300 for $10,234.50. Both prices obviously nothing to sneeze at and for me already causing causing heart palpitations, but then acquiring a new Technika would definitely be my last 4x5 camera.

My first car was a 1956 VW Beetle. Up to about 10 years ago, always had and drove a traditional Bug. Few years ago acquired a 1979 restored Beetle Conv. and had no problem justifying its cost (which was way more than a new Technika). Justifying the cost of acquiring a new Technika, on the other hand not so easy, to say the least...

Looking for forum members who own and use relatively new Technikas. How did they justify acquiring them? Honestly, were they worth acquiring in the end?

Bob, please feel free to post your opinion....

[Joe Jesus]

I have never used a brand new technika, only secondhand III and IV models. However, one could buy a used Master tech for less than $2,000 and then send it off to be CLA'd for much, much less than the cost of a brand new technika. At $10k, I can't see a reason to buy a new camera over a well-kept secondhand example.

I had a 1974 Beetle for a little while. I paid $2k for it and had about $10k worth of fun with it. I imagine the same ratio applies to used Linhofs!

[rdeloe]

Wonderful to know that you can still buy large format equipment new... but also surprising. There's such a massive amount of really good quality used kit out there. I'm curious to see what advice you get to help you make your decision.

[Tin Can]

I bought a new 1970 Beetle for $1850 out the door in 1970, then drove 100,000 miles in under 2 years.

It even saved my life in the last 3 feet, but really glad there was no passenger...

Insurance gave me $1100 and dropped me.

Priceless experiences, and they do float!

ymmv


I have never used a brand new technika, only secondhand III and IV models. However, one could buy a used Master tech for less than $2,000 and then send it off to be CLA'd for much, much less than the cost of a brand new technika. At $10k, I can't see a reason to buy a new camera over a well-kept secondhand example.

I had a 1974 Beetle for a little while. I paid $2k for it and had about $10k worth of fun with it. I imagine the same ratio applies to used Linhofs!

[Gudmundur Ingolfsson]

There are many Technikas out on fleebay in a next to new condition for a quarter of the new price, but if you insist on a virgin.... But on the other hand the nice guys at LINHOF München need all the business they can get.

[Two23]

I personally would just buy a good used one and use the other $7,500 for travel.


Kent in SD

[Gudmundur Ingolfsson]

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l1313&_nkw=linhof+master+technika&_sacat=625&LH_TitleDesc=0&_osacat=625&_odkw=large+format+lens

They are built to last.

[Bob Salomon]

So retired 10+ years ago. Stopped shooting for clients about 5 years ago. Sold off a lot of my FX Digital equipment in 2018 that I no longer used. Now am seriously considering acquiring a new 4x5 Technika to be used with probably 4 of my current 4x5 lenses. The resulting system would be easily backpackable for day hikes. Have owned and used several 4x5 and 5x7 Technikas in the past, so definitely am familiar with the brand and the quality of Linhof's construction and engineering.

So now am trying to justify acquiring a new 4x5 Technika. B&H lists Technikas as still being available with a waiting time. Master "classic" for $9,411.99 and Master Technika 300 for $10,234.50. Both prices obviously nothing to sneeze at and for me already causing causing heart palpitations, but then acquiring a new Technika would definitely be my last 4x5 camera.

My first car was a 1956 VW Beetle. Up to about 10 years ago, always had and drove a traditional Bug. Few years ago acquired a 1979 restored Beetle Conv. and had no problem justifying its cost (which was way more than a new Technika). Justifying the cost of acquiring a new Technika, on the other hand not so easy, to say the least...

Looking for forum members who own and use relatively new Technikas. How did they justify acquiring them? Honestly, were they worth acquiring in the end?

Bob, please feel free to post your opinion....

If you will be using gg or want to use very wide angle lenses then get the 3000. You should check dealers like a FotoCare Ltd., Cameras West, Samy’s as well as B&H. Omega Brandess is the US distributor. Check with them as to what is in stock in the USA.

[David Lindquist]

I bought a Linhof Master Technika 3000 new in March 2010. It was $7395 plus California sales tax at Camera West, Walnut Creek CA. (Their price was about the same as B&H's at the time). This was offset some by trading in a 4x5 I had had for some years. Of course I had the advantage of not needing much else, already having lenses, film holders, tripods, etc. and a 4x5 capable darkroom. You sound like you may be in a similar position. By the way I did not make my living doing photography. At the time I had been retired for four years.

So why did I buy it? It replaced a wooden camera that was getting a bit long in the tooth. And I'm a bit of a freak for fine mechanics. And I was fortunate that I could afford this, not on a recurring basis of course. As you say, it's the last 4x5 camera I'll buy. I like the camera a lot and don't regret paying what I did. And of course with the passage of time the cost gets amortized and the probability of regret goes down, down, down. :)
David

[Keith Pitman]

I don't think you can "justify" it. But if you want it, buy it. You'll enjoy it forever.

[Mark Sampson]

+1 to Mr. Ingolfsson's, and Mr.Pitman's, comments. My dream 4x5 happens to be a Linhof Technikardan 45S but new or used, not in the budget now or maybe ever.
So I'll urge you to live the dream- and to quote Alexander Calder; "fine tools contribute to fine work".

[dasBlute]

buy one used, travel and stay in awesome places [and take great pictures!] with the leftover funds :)

I'm a guitarist, and like camera's two things stand out:
- severely diminishing returns at the higher end
- ultimately, the guitar does not play itself :)

[Corran]

The resulting system would be easily backpackable for day hikes.

No way no how would I recommend a Technika solely for hiking/backpacking. I have/use a Master Technika...bought second-hand for 1/6 the "new" price but in "new" condition, or better than new as it had new, better bellows.

The Master Technika is 6.5 pounds according to the specs online (I haven't weighed mine specifically but that sounds right). My Chamonix 45n1 is less than half that. My 8x10 camera is even a bit lighter! And for all that weight, what do you get? Slightly more precise movements, a lot of headache using wide-angles, and a rangefinder that you probably won't use.

Let me reiterate - the Tech is a pain to use with wideangles, 90mm and lower, especially in situations where you want to use GND filters. With my 90mm, after dropping the bed, my 4x6" GND filters bottom-out on the bed of the camera. So I can only have the filter go so low. Quite annoying. Of course you can work around some of this, but nevertheless if you, say, already had invested in that system, you've got to shell out for a whole new system to fit the camera. Oh, and if you want to use wider lenses, you'll have to spend mega-bucks to get the helicals and special lens boards. I finally gave up on trying to use my 47mm XL / 58mm XL lenses on my Technika.

The Chamonix does everything I need it to do, and the loss of precision in the movements is inconsequential for landscape. My only gripe is there isn't a focus lock. But I also have the first model and it's been beat to hell hiking hundreds of miles with me, over my shoulder, knocking around my bag, or whacking into trees. Any of the variety of wooden cameras I would suggest over the Technika any day of the week. What the Technika excels at is shooting handheld, shooting studio work, and using big / heavy lenses. I still use mine on occasion for landscapes when I am not going far and want to use some specialty lens, like my 75mm Biogon. But it is not a "general purpose" camera and every time I take it out on a hike for more than a couple miles I regret it.

[Daniel Casper Lohenstein]

Looking for forum members who own and use relatively new Technikas. How did they justify acquiring them? Honestly, were they worth acquiring in the end?


Hi,

IMHO spending 10000 $ for a new camera is not justifiable. - Of course, Technikas deliver very high quality (given a costly overhaul on a regular basis). But this is exactly the reason why your prints will show no difference between a new Technika and a Technika that is 50 years old.

I'd rather buy a reasonable recreational vehicle to travel around and take photographs in Greenland, Argentina, New Zealand, Nouvelle Calédonie, Russia, Bolivia ... - while the others don't even dare to take their holy grails out of their vitrines.

If it should be a new camera, I'd prefer a Chamonix or a Shen Hao. They're versatile, especially with wide angles.

You also can engage a young and innocent darkroom assistant for collecting your mail orders at the post office, finishing your prints and cleaning the darkroom.

You could - at last - buy those superduper Halbe picture frames, https://www.halbe-rahmen.de/en/, they're made to last, and they open the door to every gallery.

BTW: is your darkroom really light tight? Your prints are as good as the weakest link in your quality chain, no matter how strong the strongest link may be.

Regards

[EdSawyer]

Agreed that there is no possible way a new technika is worth anywhere near that kind of money, when as-new examples exist on ebay and elsewhere for 1/6 - 1/10 the price. it being "New" really doesn't get you anything in this case except an extreme amount of depreciation.

[John Kasaian]

A Technika is way beyond my means, but if I were buying a used one, I'd want one new enough that Linhof would still support it with parts.

[Jim Jones]

One can spend more on a diamond than on a complete Technika outfit, and what can they create with a diamond? When someone can afford luxury, it might as well be a decent camera. 66 years ago my first new Leica cost over a month's salary, but it was worth it to me then. Now I do much better with well-used cheaper equipment.

[Bob Salomon]

No way no how would I recommend a Technika solely for hiking/backpacking. I have/use a Master Technika...bought second-hand for 1/6 the "new" price but in "new" condition, or better than new as it had new, better bellows.

The Master Technika is 6.5 pounds according to the specs online (I haven't weighed mine specifically but that sounds right). My Chamonix 45n1 is less than half that. My 8x10 camera is even a bit lighter! And for all that weight, what do you get? Slightly more precise movements, a lot of headache using wide-angles, and a rangefinder that you probably won't use.

Let me reiterate - the Tech is a pain to use with wideangles, 90mm and lower, especially in situations where you want to use GND filters. With my 90mm, after dropping the bed, my 4x6" GND filters bottom-out on the bed of the camera. So I can only have the filter go so low. Quite annoying. Of course you can work around some of this, but nevertheless if you, say, already had invested in that system, you've got to shell out for a whole new system to fit the camera. Oh, and if you want to use wider lenses, you'll have to spend mega-bucks to get the helicals and special lens boards. I finally gave up on trying to use my 47mm XL / 58mm XL lenses on my Technika.

The Chamonix does everything I need it to do, and the loss of precision in the movements is inconsequential for landscape. My only gripe is there isn't a focus lock. But I also have the first model and it's been beat to hell hiking hundreds of miles with me, over my shoulder, knocking around my bag, or whacking into trees. Any of the variety of wooden cameras I would suggest over the Technika any day of the week. What the Technika excels at is shooting handheld, shooting studio work, and using big / heavy lenses. I still use mine on occasion for landscapes when I am not going far and want to use some specialty lens, like my 75mm Biogon. But it is not a "general purpose" camera and every time I take it out on a hike for more than a couple miles I regret it.

The 3000 has a built in wide angle focusing system so no need for helical mounts. It’s drop bed goes down to 90°.

The older 2000 also has a built in wide angle focusing system so it to doesn’t require a helical.

Neither the 2000 or 3000 has a rangefinder. The 2000 is what a John Sexton uses.

[Bernice Loui]

Get the camera that appeals to you regardless of other's opinions and experiences. With that said and have been a Linhof MT previous owner (4x5 MT, and 5x7 Technika) , would not own a MT and that Linhof system again. Too limiting and there are better cameras for less $. Much like Graphic Press cameras, they are... nicer made with high precision press cameras which does not alter the fact they remain press cameras in many ways.



Bernice

[Eric Rose]

I had one for about 6 years. It drove me nuts! I thought I needed something practically bullet proof, which it is, something well engineered, which it is and maybe something with a little status, which it has. But in the end I found it to be a well made boat anchor. I went back to using a monorail and a wooden field camera.

[Corran]

The 3000 has a built in wide angle focusing system so no need for helical mounts. It’s drop bed goes down to 90°.

The older 2000 also has a built in wide angle focusing system so it to doesn’t require a helical.

Neither the 2000 or 3000 has a rangefinder. The 2000 is what a John Sexton uses.

Certainly, this helps, though I would argue the weight penalty is still high. At 6 pounds, the 2000/3000 are still double the weight of my Chamonix. What benefits are gained that are actually significant in the making of photographs? I invite you to come up and hike the Appalachian Trail some weekend - which would you rather hike to the top of Brasstown Bald or Blood Mountain with?

[Tin Can]

You can't take it with you...

buy whatever floats your boat

Maybe you won the Lotto.

I never play the Lotto, as I am sure it would ruin my life....

Shiny objects attract thieving blue Jays...https://sciencing.com/birds-like-shiny-things-8555028.html

Watch out for monkeys too...

[Bob Salomon]

Certainly, this helps, though I would argue the weight penalty is still high. At 6 pounds, the 2000/3000 are still double the weight of my Chamonix. What benefits are gained that are actually significant in the making of photographs? I invite you to come up and hike the Appalachian Trail some weekend - which would you rather hike to the top of Brasstown Bald or Blood Mountain with?

Why not just go on trail with say Sexton or Barnbaum? One uses the 2000 and a 57 Technika and the other a MT?

[Corran]

So?

[Peter Lewin]

If Greg simply wants a machine to make pictures with, the Linhof is absurd, hence the posts about other cameras which will make images that are just as good. But if a Technika will make Greg happy, it is definitely the way to go. A car is just a machine to get one from point A to point B, but many people would be happier with a Ferrari or a Porsche. A Timex will give you the time, but the lucky few enjoy their Patek Philippe’s more. The point is that enjoyment involves more than simple practicality, so if Greg can afford it, power to him!

[Daniel Casper Lohenstein]

acquiring a new Technika would definitely be my last 4x5 camera.

My first car was a 1956 VW Beetle. [...] Justifying the cost of acquiring a new Technika, on the other hand not so easy, to say the least

Looking for forum members who own and use relatively new Technikas. How did they justify acquiring them? Honestly, were they worth acquiring in the end?

Bob, please feel free to post your opinion....

If it is your last 4x5 camera then get it. You only live once, and there will be no remarks about your cameras on your tombstone.

Apparently you like german products. I know, we know, that we germans have a very unfair overage in foreign trade, resulting from desirability and attractivness of our goods. So, if you can live with this and justify it when you meet your actual commander in chief, then go for it.

Concerning new Technikas: currently I live in Switzerland, that is well known for their wristwatches. As they say here in Switzerland: the lost in value is 2/3 just in the moment you pass the money over the counter. I once was so lunatic to get a swiss watch new, now I can't even sell it, it has no value anymore - although I never wore it because water resistance is only 3m ... Now I have got a wonderful Seiko SKX007, a fantastic wristwatch, 200$, water resistant up to 200m. It serves very well, also in the darkroom where it survives chemicals and glows in the dark.

Concerning your incantation of Bob: you already made your choice, why should you wait any longer. Get it and be happy!

[Dave Wooten]

If Greg simply wants a machine to make pictures with, the Linhof is absurd, hence the posts about other cameras which will make images that are just as good. But if a Technika will make Greg happy, it is definitely the way to go. A car is just a machine to get one from point A to point B, but many people would be happier with a Ferrari or a Porsche. A Timex will give you the time, but the lucky few enjoy their Patek Philippe’s more. The point is that enjoyment involves more than simple practicality, so if Greg can afford it, power to him!

Yep! That's the ticket and justifiably tips the scales!��

[Jim Galli]

If Greg simply wants a machine to make pictures with, the Linhof is absurd, hence the posts about other cameras which will make images that are just as good. But if a Technika will make Greg happy, it is definitely the way to go. A car is just a machine to get one from point A to point B, but many people would be happier with a Ferrari or a Porsche. A Timex will give you the time, but the lucky few enjoy their Patek Philippe’s more. The point is that enjoyment involves more than simple practicality, so if Greg can afford it, power to him!

++1. It's why I have a drawer full of Pinkham Smith lenses and drive around in a '38 Ford coupe (and cannot afford either, ask my wife, and the IRS). The other justification is the old politically incorrect joke. Q. Why did God make gentiles? A. Somebody has to pay retail!

[Paul Ron]

you neeeeeeed it!
end of story!

[Tin Can]

I want to see a selfie of OP using his new toy, with evidence of purchase.

Just, saying...


you neeeeeeed it!
end of story!

[Pere Casals]

So retired 10+ years ago. Stopped shooting for clients about 5 years ago. Sold off a lot of my FX Digital equipment

You are not a rookie... sure you know what you want.

Unboxing a Technika has to be something extraordinary. Once I had one in my hands, it is an impressive piece of gear. I guess that a photographer feels that he has to craft great images to deserve the privilege to own one.

New? this is about pocket. If purchasing it new but later lacking lenses and film then that expense would be wrong. If purchasing it new and shooting a lot with it then one may deserve this camera.

[Willie]

"If it is your last 4x5 camera then get it. You only live once, and there will be no remarks about your cameras on your tombstone."

Why not? Near us there is a nice head stone with a full color Daredevil fishing lure on it. About 2 feet wide. Really looks good. A stone with a Master Technika would probably look even better. If a tall stone it could be on a Full Size Tripod.

If you like the camera - get it. New or used they are excellent. Every time you open it you'll see the precision and quality. A tool that lasts and does the job.

[Tin Can]

I just made a Linhof wish list at B&H with the camera in discussion and all available by special order Linhof accessories. No Tripods or heads.

Since no Linhof film holders are offered, I included 10 Toyo at $150 each.

Total without any lenses, as they are unavailable is $23,000.

Now what about lenses, maybe NOS is available somewhere.

What is the dream lens list and it's cost?

[Richard Wasserman]

Greg already has lenses...

Cost is relative—what is expensive to one person may not be to another. And anyway it's his money not ours. If he can afford it and it would make Greg happy to have a new camera then by all means he should have one. Not too long ago I bought a Master 2000 from B&H in 9+ condition for a fraction of the price of a new one (I could not afford the cost of a new model). It looked unused when it arrived and every time I use it I smile, it's just a beautifully built piece of gear which is a pleasure to use. I prefer metal cameras to wood ones. The Technika suits my needs very well, but may not be for everyone, but then what is?

[Mark Sampson]

Well, Greg, whatever your decision turns out to be, you now have a responsibility to post that here. I hope you decide to buy one, and I hope that it turns out to be the tool you need. Best of luck either way.

[John Kasaian]

there will be no remarks about your cameras on your tombstone."


I'll probably have a crudely hand written Post-it reading "couldn't afford a tombstone---he spent all his money on cameras"

[Dan O'Farrell]

A new Technica, or a new Purdey double, or a new Audemars Piguet.....
If you're not depriving your dependents of any security, and if you've earned the wherewithal to cover the cost,
then, by all means, you deserve the very best that you want. Buy it, enjoy it, use it well, and bless you for being a patron of a fine manufacturer.

[Sal Santamaura]

...Now what about lenses, maybe NOS is available somewhere.

What is the dream lens list and it's cost?Not NOS, but new new stock. Not offered at B&H. Since Greg is in the U.S., Badger's where he can easily shop:


http://www.badgergraphic.com/opencart/index.php?route=product/category&path=3_30


Anyone in Europe seeking the same thing might purchase here:


https://www.linhofstudio.com/products/Analogue-Lens-Rodenstock/

And for those working in larger formats looking for a new new lens, there's always this:


http://www.badgergraphic.com/opencart/index.php?route=product/category&path=3_332

:)

[Tin Can]

:)


Not NOS, but new new stock. Not offered at B&H. Since Greg is in the U.S., Badger's where he can easily shop:


http://www.badgergraphic.com/opencart/index.php?route=product/category&path=3_30


Anyone in Europe seeking the same thing might purchase here:


https://www.linhofstudio.com/products/Analogue-Lens-Rodenstock/

And for those working in larger formats looking for a new new lens, there's always this:


http://www.badgergraphic.com/opencart/index.php?route=product/category&path=3_332

:)

[faberryman]

Not NOS, but new new stock. Not offered at B&H. Since Greg is in the U.S., Badger's where he can easily shop:


http://www.badgergraphic.com/opencart/index.php?route=product/category&path=3_30


Anyone in Europe seeking the same thing might purchase here:


https://www.linhofstudio.com/products/Analogue-Lens-Rodenstock/

And for those working in larger formats looking for a new new lens, there's always this:


http://www.badgergraphic.com/opencart/index.php?route=product/category&path=3_332

:)

I think I know why Badger still has those new lenses in stock.

[Bob Salomon]

Not NOS, but new new stock. Not offered at B&H. Since Greg is in the U.S., Badger's where he can easily shop:


http://www.badgergraphic.com/opencart/index.php?route=product/category&path=3_30


Anyone in Europe seeking the same thing might purchase here:


https://www.linhofstudio.com/products/Analogue-Lens-Rodenstock/

And for those working in larger formats looking for a new new lens, there's always this:


http://www.badgergraphic.com/opencart/index.php?route=product/category&path=3_332

:)

Most is gray market. Why wouldn’t you want to support an American dealer with a physical location and lots of employees rather then a one man warehouse that doesn’t support much in the way of local or state economy and sells product that bypasses the legal importer and whose gray products do not have US warranties?

Lots of dealers in the USA, besides this one, FotoCare, K&H, Camera West, Samy’s, Central, Dodd, Hunt, etc.

If they don’t have it they can special order, just like this gray market specialist!

[Jac@stafford.net]

[...] sells product that bypasses the legal importer and whose gray products do not have US warranties?!

How does a product become grey market? Legal importer? Hint of monopoly?

[David Lindquist]

If you go to the Linhof website: http://linhof.com/en/ and look at their current price list for lenses you'll see for analogue lenses these five Rodenstock lenses listed plus the 90mm Schneider Super Angulon XL. The website calls it a December 2018 price list but the PDF itself says it's valid 1 September 2018.

Peskily this forum auto-corrects "Angulon" to "Angolan."

David

[Keith Pitman]

So, Greg, have you decided?

[Bob Salomon]

How does a product become grey market? Legal importer? Hint of monopoly?

What monopoly, the legal importer has a contract with the factory to set up factory authorized service, pay to train repair staff at factory, maintain repair parts, provide technical support for users, purchase and supply factory product literature for customers, agree to maintain sample product to exhibit at trade shows and for dealer training, maintains adequate inventory to support dealer sales, supply product warranty in the distributor’s country, agree to budgeted purchases of factory product on a mutually agreed schedule, produce PR for press in distributor’s country, purchase agreed amount of product literature from factory. Pays all shipment costs from factory to distributor including required packaging, pays any and all import costs at border, pays all advertising costs in country’s publications, carries product liability insurance for product from the factory sold in country.

A grey market dealer does none of this, just sits back and disrupts the marketplace.

[Daniel Casper Lohenstein]

Why don't you spend 2k$ more?

Travel to Germany, to Munich, join one of the original Linhof large format photography workshops http://linhof.com/en/linhof-workshops-und-seminare/, visit the factory in Munich, buy the camera at the factory (as the sultan of Brunei once did - they offered him an additional and complete 2x3 Technika system for free, as a gift ... Germans love to visit the VW plant in Wolfsburg, watching their own Golf or Passat getting assembled)?

Offer yourself a trip to Oberbayern, Schwaben and Franken (Neuschwanstein, Königsee, Bayreuth - R.Wagner-Festival), visit all the locations Linhof promoted in their own magazine »Photo-Technik International« ...


What monopoly, the legal importer has a contract with the factory to set up factory authorized service, pay to train repair staff at factory, maintain repair parts, provide technical support for users, purchase and supply factory product literature for customers, agree to maintain sample product to exhibit at trade shows and for dealer training, maintains adequate inventory to support dealer sales, supply product warranty in the distributor’s country, agree to budgeted purchases of factory product on a mutually agreed schedule, produce PR for press in distributor’s country, purchase agreed amount of product literature from factory. Pays all shipment costs from factory to distributor including required packaging, pays any and all import costs at border, pays all advertising costs in country’s publications, carries product liability insurance for product from the factory sold in country.

A grey market dealer does none of this, just sits back and disrupts the marketplace.

[Greg]

Thanks to all for the feedback. Acquiring a pre-owned 2000 or 3000 Linhof Technika definitely the way to go. For me, weight is not a factor, the longest hikes I take nowadays are measured in single digit miles. "fine mechanics" as Dave stated also my Achilles heel, my first 4x5 was a Sinar Norma and still use one today. So now the search begins for one in mint condition.....
Greg

[Jim Noel]

There are at the most two people to whom you must justify the purchase - You and your spouse. The rest of us don't matter in this case.

[Greg]

Thanks to all for the feedback. Acquiring a pre-owned 2000 or 3000 Linhof Technika definitely the way to go. For me, weight is not a factor, the longest hikes I take nowadays are measured in single digit miles. "fine mechanics" as Dave stated also my Achilles heel, my first 4x5 was a Sinar Norma and still use one today. So now the search begins for one in mint condition.....
Greg

I'm still looking... Since my last post, last fall found one Technika that I very seriously considered buying, but the seller was not a photographer and couldn't answer my questions, plus "returns not accepted", so just backed off. Good thing is that all my 4x5 lenses now reside on OEM Linhof boards.

Is there a web site that compares the V, 2000, and the 3000?

I have a beautiful 82 page Linhof catalog that covers the V, but have no literature covering the 2000 or 3000.

Thanks

[Oren Grad]

Greg, the Linhof website still has the current brochure for the Master and 3000, and manuals for the Master/2000/3000. You can get them from this index page:

http://linhof.com/en/download-2/

[Greg]

Greg, the Linhof website still has the current brochure for the Master and 3000, and manuals for the Master/2000/3000. You can get them from this index page:

http://linhof.com/en/download-2/

Thanks Oren, that's exactly what am looking for.
Greg

[Bob Salomon]

I'm still looking... Since my last post, last fall found one Technika that I very seriously considered buying, but the seller was not a photographer and couldn't answer my questions, plus "returns not accepted", so just backed off. Good thing is that all my 4x5 lenses now reside on OEM Linhof boards.

Is there a web site that compares the V, 2000, and the 3000?

I have a beautiful 82 page Linhof catalog that covers the V, but have no literature covering the 2000 or 3000.

Thanks

Greg, the Master Technika, Master Technika Classic, Master Technika 2000 and the Master Technika 3000 are identical in bellows draw, operating controls, body construction, bellows material except for the following:

1 the name of the Master Technika was changed to the Classic after the 2000 was introduced, save for the shape and placement of some knobs for the back movement and, during the original production of the Master there was a small, rectangular block with 2 small holes that would allow the use of a special cable release to be placed next to the focusing wheel on the right side of the bed. That cable release is no longer manufactured so on all later versions of the Master the block is still there but the holes are no longer there.
2 the difference between a 2000 and 3000 and the other Master Technikas is that the rangefinder and it’s mechanism in the body have been removed and, in their place, an extreme wide angle focusing rail has been placed inside the camera body.
3 the difference between the 2000 and 3000 are:
The 2000 has a small lever in front of the lens standard that moves left to right to move that track for extreme wide angle focusing. On the 3000 that function is done with a knob on the bottom right side of the camera housing.
The 2000 has the same drop bed drops as the Master Technika so it can be possible to have the edge of the drop bed caught with lenses wider then 75mm. The 3000 has an extra drop bed position that drops the bed 90° from the body to eliminate that possibility. Later versions of the 2000 can have that function added by the service center.
The 3000 also has bed stops on the inside extreme wide angle rails.

John Sexton has the 2000. If you know him you might ask him. I don’t believe he has seen or used the 3000.

[Greg]

Thanks Bob, your outline really simplifies things for me.
Greg

[Daniel Casper Lohenstein]

Thanks Bob, your outline really simplifies things for me.
Greg

What about a Horseman FA?

Same technical back, same front standard, smaller lens boards, focus from 65-300, but without range finder, and nearly half the weight of a Technika?

[Ben Calwell]

Greg, I share your admiration for Linhofs. I have a 5x7 Tech III. It's not much to look at (I stripped all the old, peeling leatherette off and haven't yet replaced it), but it's built like a tank and a pleasure to use. For my Last Camera, though, and based strictly on looks, I'd like to have an Ebony. Never used or held one, but they certainly are beautiful.

[mpirie]

I'm in the fortunate position to own both a Linhof Master Technika 2000 and an Ebony SV45TE.

The Linhof has it for the engineering and precision, but the Ebony is a VERY flexible (in the right way) camera and is drop-dead gorgeous.

If the weather is questionable, then it's the Linhof I grab, but there's something very satisfying about using a wooden camera.

Mike

[Ben Calwell]

I agree, Mike. I have a Wista DX in rosewood that I like, but Ebonys really call to me. But like you say, you can't beat the engineering and precision of a Linhof.

[Greg]

Follow Up to when I started this thread expressing interest in acquiring a Technika:

So finally I was able to borrow a 4x5 Technika outfit to try out. I actually took out a temporary insurance policy on the Technika outfit for a short period of time. Cost little but was a pain to write up by my insurance company. Probably more because my insurance agent had retired last year, and the current agent was wary of the high replacement costs.

I must say the Technika is one lovely and precise (actually more precise than I had thought it would be) piece of equipment to use. Weight difference between the Technika and the Chamonix is 2 1/2 pounds (1,130 grams). The Technika was 1 inch thicker than my Chamonix when folded up and so the Technika wouldn't fit inside my sectioned backpack in which the Chamonix is already a tight fit. So ended up going to a couple of places that I have shot before "from the back of my car".

In the end decided not to go the Technika route. Justification for switching to a Technika just isn't there now for me... Find myself shooting a lot more whole plate, 8x10, and 11x14 and contact printing the negatives. Still shoot a bit of 4x5 on occasions, but seemingly less and less lately, and no more chromes.

But if I were to have started off with using a Technika in the late 1970s, all bets are that I would have still been using one now. The Technika that I borrowed and used was certainly a pleasure to use.

And thanks for all the posts and comments...

[David Lindquist]

And thank you for letting us know how this turned out.

David

[Tin Can]

Ditto!

[Michael_4514]

One can spend more on a diamond than on a complete Technika outfit, and what can they create with a diamond? When someone can afford luxury, it might as well be a decent camera. 66 years ago my first new Leica cost over a month's salary, but it was worth it to me then. Now I do much better with well-used cheaper equipment.

I did spend more on a diamond, but a woman came with it.

[DG 3313]

I don't have a boat, motor cycle or girl friend....my wife said, "you can have any camera you want".........

[Bertha DeCool]

I owned a Toyota Land Cruiser FJ40 in the mid-'70s. Poor grade steel meant most have returned to the elements from whence they came but there are survivors and restorations out there for $25K+.
I could never justify buying one but, if I could afford that for a part-time vehicle, I'd do it in a heartbeat.
You want it, you can afford it? No need to justify to anyone.
Except maybe your spouse...

[Daniel Casper Lohenstein]

A life without a Technika is possible, but meaningless. (Loriot)

[giganova]

You see the exact same discussions on the rangefinder forum whether it makes sense to buy a new Leica M-A for $5,200 when Ebay is full of used film M bodies for a fraction of the price. For some it makes sense, for others it doesn't. There is no right or wrong answer.

$10k buys you a lot of sheet film. ;) I'd rather invest $10k in travel to exotic places to take pictures.

[Andy F]

The cost of the Linhof is absurd and I really think they should be ashamed of themselves for charging so much. Still, it is an amazing piece of equipment and life is short. Also, if you think about it how much money does a person spend over the years on crappy technology that will not last. If over ten years you have to buy 4 cell phones and 2 computers and maybe 2 ipads then your also spending a ton of money. Still they do cost a lot.

[Daniel Casper Lohenstein]

The cost of the Linhof is absurd and I really think they should be ashamed of themselves for charging so much. Still, it is an amazing piece of equipment and life is short. Also, if you think about it how much money does a person spend over the years on crappy technology that will not last. If over ten years you have to buy 4 cell phones and 2 computers and maybe 2 ipads then your also spending a ton of money. Still they do cost a lot.

Hello,

many thanks to the OP also from my side. I think it's quite useful that a decision process can be followed in this thread. There are a few more things that the interested reader might consider.

1. A Technika from Germany will perhaps be inherited in the third or fourth generation. A new Linhof is a statement, too. They don't produce in Shenzen, but in Munich where people don't stay without complete health insurance or starve to death - even if they become unemployed. They work 51% of the year for taxes, social and health insurance etc., 37,5 hours a week. That's "Gemeinsinn", community spirit, not Chinese-style "socialism" aka "Manchester capitalism". Leitz outsourced to Portugal or Canada, Rollei to Singapore, others to China .... They should not be "ashamed", not Linhof in Munich. IMHO the current new price of a technical camera is the normal price for a product of this quality and functional range in the given production conditions. Everything else is dumping, wage dumping, material dumping, social dumping and so on.

2. We're not real puritans: we try out some things and in the end we stick to one thing and the rest has to go. Truth is not something that is immovably fixed from the beginning. It arises only little by little in reflection and action, in exchange with others and in comparison. The OP has tried out a Technika. Mee too. I like to take the Linhof for hiking in Swiss Alps, in the south of France, in Italy. I never have to have the feeling that something goes wrong with the camera. It just fits, nothing wobbles, and you can trust it. From 75 to 360. The one kilogram more I accept for it.

3. Many wooden field cameras do not allow to transport the lens inside the camera. You have to remove the lens, and that means: it becomes bulky. I can store a Apo-Ronar 300 w. Copal 1 shutter inside the camera, as well as a Super-Angulon 8/75. And dust gets in the interior of the wooden field camera. In addition, the Technika remains quite compact on the outside, whereas a wooden field camera can have numerous wheels and levers that stick out. There is also the danger that sharp objects in a backpack, e.g. the lens board of the externally mounted lens, could prick the bellows. I think a Technika with a normal lens can be more compact and perhaps lighter than a wooden field camera with a dark cloth, a wrapping cloth and two separate casings for the camera and the lens.

Kind regards

[Tin Can]

My all metal VGC Prewar Linhof Standard 5X7 is far lighter than postwar

I also have VGC Linhof Kardan Color 8x10"

Both will never be sold by me

I doubt I buy any new camera again

[Kiwi7475]

Arguing in favor or against is futile.

It is definitely a luxury item, made for the elite bourgeoisie or the high end professional, as many other consumption items (luxury cars, etc.). Whether it can be a heirloom piece or not is just one more bourgeoisie consideration, most people will be glad if they leave this world not passing on debt to their descendants.

I don't know that it costs $10k to design and manufacture this thing (including all the health insurance and good working conditions/benefits), and definitely I don't know that it is worth $10k. Both of which are different things.

We all go through a personal evaluation process in considering an expensive purchase for something that will not bring us money back (ie. not a tool that generates income). Can I afford it? Will it give me that something more that a lesser expensive equivalent will not? What am I giving up in purchasing it? etc. etc.

This is a most personal decision, no one can take OP's spot on this. It will be worthwhile for some, outrageous to even consider for others, and so on.

For me, I can buy something that will do what I need for a heck of a lot less, and use the reminder of my hard earned dollars for many other things, photography related and not. So the decision is trivial.

[Bob Salomon]

Arguing in favor or against is futile.

It is definitely a luxury item, made for the elite bourgeoisie or the high end professional, as many other consumption items (luxury cars, etc.). Whether it can be a heirloom piece or not is just one more bourgeoisie consideration, most people will be glad if they leave this world not passing on debt to their descendants.

I don't know that it costs $10k to design and manufacture this thing (including all the health insurance and good working conditions/benefits), and definitely I don't know that it is worth $10k. Both of which are different things.

We all go through a personal evaluation process in considering an expensive purchase for something that will not bring us money back (ie. not a tool that generates income). Can I afford it? Will it give me that something more that a lesser expensive equivalent will not? What am I giving up in purchasing it? etc. etc.

This is a most personal decision, no one can take OP's spot on this. It will be worthwhile for some, outrageous to even consider for others, and so on.

For me, I can buy something that will do what I need for a heck of a lot less, and use the reminder of my hard earned dollars for many other things, photography related and not. So the decision is trivial.

But you probably not buy something for a heck of a lot less then a good, used Super Technika IV. Maybe for not much less then a 50 year old Master Technika. And both would outlast that heck of a lot cheaper camera or have the capability of the used camera.
The Master Technika was introduced in Sept. of 73. That’s a long run for one camera!

[David Lindquist]

Looking at B&H today, their price for the Master Technika Classic is $12929 and the Master Technika 3000, $12416. These are also the list prices shown by Omega-Brandess.

Linhof & Studio shows $7847 for the Master Technika Classic and $7526 for the Master Technika 3000 (prices converted from G.B.P. today using an on-line currency conversion website).

The price list currently on Linhof's website is two years old; the dollar equivalents of their prices shown in Euros are $8032 and $7607 respectively, again these are based on two year old figures. Of course if you are buying in a Euro or G.B.P. area there would be V.A.T.

As I said in March 2019 in post #19, I did buy a new Master Technika 3000 in March 2010.

David

[LabRat]

For the "cost is no object" crowd, this is not an issue...

My cheap (1951/52) Tek III I obtained 35 years ago has worked hard for me and is still going, so a lifetime investment...

Great they are still making them (at a cost)...

Steve K

[Kiwi7475]

I used a Super Technica IV for a while. It was painful to use 90mm and 75 mm lenses. Not impossible but difficult. Also it was almost twice the weight of a wooden field camera, and I wanted to hike a lot with it. So I sold it.

But your point is well taken. When you come down from $10k to like $600-$800 for a well used Tech IV or even $1k to $1.5k for a Master, then we're talking, and it makes a LOT more sense if it fits your needs. But that is NOT OP's original question. This also makes you wonder how much purchasing a new model will quickly depreciate over time, and so how much of a good smart investment it really is :-)

[Mark Sampson]

"Fine tools contribute to fine work". -Alexander Calder
The very best of anything is never cheap. In addition, the Linhof Technika was designed and built to be a superlative professional tool. Thus, in modern times anyway, a tax write-off for its professional buyer. Likely less so in the last 20 years- but the concept of building to a high standard, and not down to a price, remains. Many such products have become status symbols; Ferrari, Rolex, Leica come to mind. Hard to imagine a Technika as such (except in our very small cohort). I'm glad that they are still in production, and I'd buy a new Linhof today if I could.

[Bob Salomon]

I used a Super Technica IV for a while. It was painful to use 90mm and 75 mm lenses. Not impossible but difficult. Also it was almost twice the weight of a wooden field camera, and I wanted to hike a lot with it. So I sold it.

But your point is well taken. When you come down from $10k to like $600-$800 for a well used Tech IV or even $1k to $1.5k for a Master, then we're talking, and it makes a LOT more sense if it fits your needs. But that is NOT OP's original question. This also makes you wonder how much purchasing a new model will quickly depreciate over time, and so how much of a good smart investment it really is :-)

A Technika, a Leica, etc. are tools. Tools that will last decades under hard use. A car, be it a Ferrari or a Fiat is a car, it will be driven, it’s tires will wear, it beats periodic maintenance. It’s why they depreciate so much when first driven. But then the Ferrari eventually will become a collectible and possibly never driven again.
A LInhof remains a tool, even decades later.

Using a 75 or 90 on a IV simply means a recessed board and a dropped bed. Not very difficult.

[Tin Can]

The age old answer

If you have to ask the price, you cannot afford it

[Kiwi7475]

A Technika, a Leica, etc. are tools. Tools that will last decades under hard use. A car, be it a Ferrari or a Fiat is a car, it will be driven, it’s tires will wear, it beats periodic maintenance. It’s why they depreciate so much when first driven. But then the Ferrari eventually will become a collectible and possibly never driven again.
A LInhof remains a tool, even decades later.

Using a 75 or 90 on a IV simply means a recessed board and a dropped bed. Not very difficult.

Not all tools are equal. The ones you mention are luxury tools. You buy more than the appropriate tool that is needed for the job. You buy "an inessential, desirable item which is expensive or difficult to obtain". That is the dictionary definition of luxury and I think it applies swimmingly.

Like I said before, this is a personal decision and arguing against or in favor is futile. The world is full of luxury items, pick your poison (cars, cameras, watches, ... whatever) but be smart with your wallet.

[Daniel Casper Lohenstein]

Hello,

I don't think a Technika is a luxury product. On the contrary. It is the expression of a solid company policy that focuses on sustainability and availability.

Here you can find a book: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B50p4jef-eUcdGpoVWRRQjVFVlk/view

This book is worth reading. You will find something about the history of Linhof. When the Technika was sold as one of a few serious technical cameras, Linhof had over 800 employees. One learns about the expansion and the transition to CAD and CAM, about the factory canteen and housing construction.

At Laflex you can also find brochures from that time: http://www.laflexcamera.com/brochures You can see the variety of Linhof developments, which were always tailored to the needs of professionals.

In order to transfer important knowledge, Linhof has been emphasizing training since the sixties. Back then: https://drive.google.com/file/d/16_Hwlzm-hZcMql3bg0Ixv3KRnV9MDbDw/view Today: http://linhof.com/linhof-workshops-und-seminare-2/

Here you can see that Linhof actually still repairs all cameras from 1959 on: http://linhof.com/en/service-2/ 1959 is the cut-off date because there are no older spare parts available. It concerns mainly the Linhof Technika IV MK1, which was then replaced by an improved MK2 model. Buy a Technika V, and you will probably be able to get it repaired completely.

The real estate prices in Munich are high. A friend paid the equivalent of monthly 1500 USD for 25 square meters, that was in 1995. Linhof stores all the spare parts, runs the complete workshop, takes care of the support from all over the world. Linhof still exists. One could have founded successor companies. The repair of old cameras would then be in the hands of subcontractors. How long they would still be around is not known.

To me, all this doesn't sound like "luxury article", but like solid work for people who value sustainability and availability. Like Bosch or Dewalt gear. Especially when I have to earn my money hard, I will be disappointed with many cheaper solutions. Bourgeoisie is a different concept.

I spent the first 36 years of my life in Germany, so I know that the price for a Linhof Technika is a normal commercial price for the offer mentioned. Whether the demand is still there today is another story. But those who do not want to afford a Technika do not have to grumble.

Or, if one grumbles about the Technika, perhaps one cannot afford one. It's like Alberich in Richard Wagner's "Rheingold": he completely renounces love because he cannot manage to seduce one of the three Rhine daughters.

Of course most men in the world are poor. For them, a Linhof is a luxury, sure. But they don't shoot in 4x5 inch anyway.

Greeting




Arguing in favor or against is futile.

It is definitely a luxury item, made for the elite bourgeoisie or the high end professional, as many other consumption items (luxury cars, etc.). Whether it can be a heirloom piece or not is just one more bourgeoisie consideration, most people will be glad if they leave this world not passing on debt to their descendants.

I don't know that it costs $10k to design and manufacture this thing (including all the health insurance and good working conditions/benefits), and definitely I don't know that it is worth $10k. Both of which are different things.

We all go through a personal evaluation process in considering an expensive purchase for something that will not bring us money back (ie. not a tool that generates income). Can I afford it? Will it give me that something more that a lesser expensive equivalent will not? What am I giving up in purchasing it? etc. etc.

This is a most personal decision, no one can take OP's spot on this. It will be worthwhile for some, outrageous to even consider for others, and so on.

For me, I can buy something that will do what I need for a heck of a lot less, and use the reminder of my hard earned dollars for many other things, photography related and not. So the decision is trivial.

[Bob Salomon]

On my first business trip to the LInhof factory they gave me a tour before lunch.
There were a pair of swinging doors entering the main work area. Just to the side of those doors was a beer vending machine.
Once inside that room were rows and rows of long tables, each holding 4 or 6 employees. Each with fine finishing tools, files, small hammers, screwdrivers, etc.. they were finishing the body castings for the MT. All fine hand work by master machinists.
When we went to lunch in the factory cafeteria the table were set with China and silverware and were all in one room. The executive area was in the same area but curtained off. Waiters and waitresses served all of the tables.

This was in 1981.
A couple of years later I made another trip and noticed that the beer machine was gone. Then we entered that big room and found all of the tables and machinists were gone. In their place were several very large and very long cad/cam machines carrying out the work of all those machinists. The dining area was also gone.

On that trip we found a large pile of unfinished bodies for the MT that were in a “discard” pile. We asked why and they showed us that those castings had very small potholes on the areas that would be chrome plated. The factory tried filling and smoothing over those pit holes but when plated any of those areas would have what looked like a water spot on the chrome.
We asked them if they could salvage those bodies by painting them with the same electrostatic black paint that they used on Kardan, Technoramas, tripod heads, etc.. they said that they could if we bought all of them. So we did at a much lower price to us and then sold them to our dealers at a much lower cost to them. They were available through the rest of the 80s.

[GG12]

Whether a Technica is worth $8k or $10k is one matter. But the use of tools is another. Two small stories:

- in 1990 I went to work in a political office, and my mentor had a Montblanc fountain pen. So I bought one too. Still used today, its been back once for service. Sure it cost a lot, but all its done since then is use ink. Luxury one might say or is this perhaps long-term sustainability? Lot better than throwing away a bunch of plastic ones.

- about a year ago I bought some Snap-on screw drivers for some ridiculous amount of money. They are known to have very good tools, and I'm generally too cheap to buy any of them. However, one year later, its the screwdriver I'm always looking to use. Just feels right.

[Daniel Casper Lohenstein]

Whether a Technica is worth $8k or $10k is one matter. But the use of tools is another. Two small stories:

- in 1990 I went to work in a political office, and my mentor had a Montblanc fountain pen. So I bought one too. Still used today, its bee back once for service. Sure it cost a lot, but all its done since then is use ink. Luxury one might say or is this perhaps long-term sustainability? Lot better than throwing away a bunch of plastic ones.

I have always written my excerpts, books and articles with Pelikan fountain pens and Waterman ink (Serenity Blue). Then I normally read the text with Dragon Naturally Speaking to get it into my Computer, where I use LaTeX to produce my manuscripts. This all happens very quickly and intuitively. But now I have noticed that the water-soluble Waterman ink fades out. If I had written everything with a Montblanc, I could have used the document-proof carbon or iron gallus black inks and nothing would have faded.The Montblanc is the only fountain pen that can work with these inks. The fact that I would have paid a few hundred Dollars more would not matter now, after 30 years.

[Kiwi7475]

Let's open our eyes a bit. The median salaries in Munich range from $20k for a cashier to $70k for an attorney (https://teleport.org/cities/munich/salaries/#salary-rankings).
The salaries across most of Germany are going to be somewhat similar to that for the larger cities, and definitely lower for smaller cities/countryside. Since I don't think most people can dispose of 10% to 50% of their gross income to buy a camera, then this is probably a product made for the top 1% german earners (*). Btw, those salaries are not that far off compared to similar professions in many US cities either. Do you still think that it is not a luxury product? To be a luxury product btw is not in conflict with that product being of high quality (which by all means it is).

(*) The average income in Germany is $47,450. To be in the top 1% in Germany you need to make $277,000 (https://www.businessinsider.com/how-much-money-you-need-to-make-top-1-percent-2020-2), so a $10k item would consume $3.6% of the gross income.


Hello,

I don't think a Technika is a luxury product. On the contrary. It is the expression of a solid company policy that focuses on sustainability and availability.

Here you can find a book: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B50p4jef-eUcdGpoVWRRQjVFVlk/view

This book is worth reading. You will find something about the history of Linhof. When the Technika was sold as one of a few serious technical cameras, Linhof had over 800 employees. One learns about the expansion and the transition to CAD and CAM, about the factory canteen and housing construction.

At Laflex you can also find brochures from that time: http://www.laflexcamera.com/brochures You can see the variety of Linhof developments, which were always tailored to the needs of professionals.

In order to transfer important knowledge, Linhof has been emphasizing training since the sixties. Back then: https://drive.google.com/file/d/16_Hwlzm-hZcMql3bg0Ixv3KRnV9MDbDw/view Today: http://linhof.com/linhof-workshops-und-seminare-2/

Here you can see that Linhof actually still repairs all cameras from 1959 on: http://linhof.com/en/service-2/ 1959 is the cut-off date because there are no older spare parts available. It concerns mainly the Linhof Technika IV MK1, which was then replaced by an improved MK2 model. Buy a Technika V, and you will probably be able to get it repaired completely.

The real estate prices in Munich are high. A friend paid the equivalent of monthly 1500 USD for 25 square meters, that was in 1995. Linhof stores all the spare parts, runs the complete workshop, takes care of the support from all over the world. Linhof still exists. One could have founded successor companies. The repair of old cameras would then be in the hands of subcontractors. How long they would still be around is not known.

To me, all this doesn't sound like "luxury article", but like solid work for people who value sustainability and availability. Like Bosch or Dewalt gear. Especially when I have to earn my money hard, I will be disappointed with many cheaper solutions. Bourgeoisie is a different concept.

I spent the first 36 years of my life in Germany, so I know that the price for a Linhof Technika is a normal commercial price for the offer mentioned. Whether the demand is still there today is another story. But those who do not want to afford a Technika do not have to grumble.

Or, if one grumbles about the Technika, perhaps one cannot afford one. It's like Alberich in Richard Wagner's "Rheingold": he completely renounces love because he cannot manage to seduce one of the three Rhine daughters.

Of course most men in the world are poor. For them, a Linhof is a luxury, sure. But they don't shoot in 4x5 inch anyway.

Greeting

[Bob Salomon]

Let's open our eyes a bit. The median salaries in Munich range from $20k for a cashier to $70k for an attorney (https://teleport.org/cities/munich/salaries/#salary-rankings).
The salaries across most of Germany are going to be somewhat similar to that for the larger cities, and definitely lower for smaller cities/countryside. Since I don't think most people can dispose of 10% to 50% of their gross income to buy a camera, then this is probably a product made for the top 1% german earners (*). Btw, those salaries are not that far off compared to similar professions in many US cities either. Do you still think that it is not a luxury product? To be a luxury product btw is not in conflict with that product being of high quality (which by all means it is).

(*) The average income in Germany is $47,450. To be in the top 1% in Germany you need to make $277,000 (https://www.businessinsider.com/how-much-money-you-need-to-make-top-1-percent-2020-2), so a $10k item would consume $3.6% of the gross income.
They also have free medical among other services that we have to pay for here, like higher education. Their incomes are not directly comparable to the U.S.
But a German driver’s license is awfully expensive compared to the U.S.. here in GA mine is free!

[Daniel Casper Lohenstein]

Let's open our eyes a bit. The median salaries in Munich range from $20k for a cashier to $70k for an attorney (https://teleport.org/cities/munich/salaries/#salary-rankings).
The salaries across most of Germany are going to be somewhat similar to that for the larger cities, and definitely lower for smaller cities/countryside. Since I don't think most people can dispose of 10% to 50% of their gross income to buy a camera, then this is probably a product made for the top 1% german earners (*). Btw, those salaries are not that far off compared to similar professions in many US cities either. Do you still think that it is not a luxury product? To be a luxury product btw is not in conflict with that product being of high quality (which by all means it is).

(*) The average income in Germany is $47,450. To be in the top 1% in Germany you need to make $277,000 (https://www.businessinsider.com/how-much-money-you-need-to-make-top-1-percent-2020-2), so a $10k item would consume $3.6% of the gross income.

Former Technika buyers were mostly professional photographers. Perhaps today's Technika buyers are mostly amateurs.For professionals a Technika was worth a more serious thought, I think, a tool that became profitable at a certain point in time. Perhaps a Technika will never "pay off" in amateur photography. Certainly we are talking about the desires of amateurs.

However, I do not know many people who are interested in 4x5 or even analog. Most of them have affordable digital devices. If a cashier wants to own a Linhof, he will find a way: either rent a camera, buy a used one, save money to get a new one, or leave it and keep dreaming. But if he really considers to buy a new one with support and sustainability: there will be somebody in Munich picking up the phone.

[giganova]

Linhof are not luxury products. They are utilitarian, professional products like forklifts, nothing like a Ferrari. If someone needs a forklift, they will buy one. They don't even look cool on your Steinway Grand to brag at parties, vintage wooden cameras with a brass lens would fit that bill much better. :p

[grat]

Linhof are not luxury products. They are utilitarian, professional products like forklifts, nothing like a Ferrari. If someone needs a forklift, they will buy one. They don't even look cool on your Steinway Grand to brag at parties, vintage wooden cameras with a brass lens would fit that bill much better. :p

But the Wista forklift has a nearly identical set of features, and costs 30% less (new).

And most people would get more use out of an Intrepid or Chamonix pallet jack, because it's more portable and easier to use.

The Chamonix even looks good on a Steinway. :)

... I think I may have overstretched the metaphor a bit. :rolleyes:

[Corran]

A (new) Technika (made for film) is definitely a luxury product. It's no surprise that used Master Technikas sell for $600-$1000 despite selling "new" at B&H for $13,000 now. I don't really care what the thing is made of or who made it, that's obscene, just like the rest of Linhof's catalog. The fact that it depreciates to less than 10% of its value kinda shows that, whilst other common 4x5 cameras sell used at 80% of their new price (Chamonix comes to mind).

Maybe someone can justify its use as a "tool" but film photography is 99% now the domain of amateurs, hobbyists, and artists, none of whom are likely to "need" an MT. I have two, that I bought used for roughly $1,000 and the other for $400. I like the camera but I'm also much more likely to grab my Intrepid 4x5 that cost $350 new for shooting most of what I shoot. For architecture I grab my Toyo GII which has more ability to use ultrawide lenses and only cost me $250. Sure, some of this is because film photography is now not the professional standard but regardless it is what it is.

I like the MT for shooting handheld, which is admittedly one of the only ways one can do that with multiple lenses.

They are very fine machines and that's great but just like Leica film cameras that are still sold new, they are a luxury item. Perhaps not as stereotypical as a Rolex or other mostly cosmetic luxury good but nevertheless, they don't really do anything that the average film user needs that some other camera can't do for drastically less money.

[Bernice Loui]

Having owned-used both 4x5 and 5x7 versions of Linhof Technika, nice but no thanks. There are better cameras available at lower cost in many ways.

Keep in mind these began as press cameras, evolved into field cameras.. and their inherent design limitations remain.


Bernice

[Bob Salomon]

Having owned-used both 4x5 and 5x7 versions of Linhof Technika, nice but no thanks. There are better cameras available at lower cost in many ways.

Keep in mind these began as press cameras, evolved into field cameras.. and their inherent design limitations remain.


Bernice
LInhof only made one press camera in 45 and that was the Standard Press that Berkey wanted to compete against the Graphics in the USA. Since it was made to be a press camera it did not have back movements.
The Technika was always made to be a technical camera. That was what Karla received the patent for. An all metal camera with full back movement; tilt, swing, rise - not much, fall - not much, and shifts - not much. As well as full front movements.
Something no press camera had.
In other words it is an all metal folding camera with full movements and the ability to use lenses from extreme wide to 400mm with no change of bellows or needing more rail. Plus, most models can be used handheld as a rangefinder camera with lenses from 72 to 360mm.
Hardly a “press camera”.

[Sal Santamaura]

It's entertaining to watch what happened after Hiromi retired and those who couldn't afford new Ebony cameras were "forced" over to complaining about Linhof. :)

[Corran]

I've used an Ebony, not impressed in the slightest.

[Havoc]

Today I took apart my Linhof 220. I'm not impressed with the build quality and certainly not with the engineering behind it. More McGyvers meets A-Team than swiss watchmaking.

[giganova]

The cost of the Linhof is absurd and I really think they should be ashamed of themselves for charging so much.
I couldn't disagree more. I find it amazing that a company that was founded in 1887 is still producing high-precision, hand-machined cameras in the same building as 133 years ago. What an accomplishment! Of course it is very expensive to keep highly trained workers employed to produce a handful of cameras because the market essentially disappeared. Do you think they are charging so much just for fun? I guess they have been at the verge of bankruptcy for decades but somehow managed to stay afloat, which is quite amazing.

[wyofilm]

When need people* to buy new Linhof cameras so that the photographers of tomorrow have something to shoot with. With that being said, I bought a Technika IV a little over a year ago, and for about that same price I am having it overhauled. In the end, a fairly expensive camera. However, I expect this camera to well outlive me.

*People does not include me in this case, because dang that is a lot of money for a camera.

[Greg]

Wow... post a simple question and there are over 90 follow up posts to it!!! Over the years I have known and/or worked with probably a dozen Linhof Technika owners. One was a camera collector and the others serious users. But even the camera collector that I had worked with took out his Technika outfit on a regular basis and used it. He even let me borrow it one time. Every one of those owners knew how to operate and take advantage of their camera's features. The Technika reminds me of Porsche cars. Superbly precision design, engineering, and construction with amazing capabilities. Definitely a high end product akin to a Technika. But a big difference with the Porsche owners... I see many people around here this time of the year driving around in their $100,000.00 plus Porsches. By observing how they drive, I can deduce that at least half of them have no idea how to drive their Porsches. About 10 years ago I had a neighbor who drove a $150,000.00 plus model who I swear never revved her engine above 3K. Heck back then I revved my classic 1970s Beetle engine up to 3.2K all the time.

[Tin Can]

Oops into my territory. I have had more VW's than cameras and I have a lot of cameras

Back in the day we flogged any VW, my new 1970 Bug was constantly shifted way past 3.2K, for 100K miles in under 2 years then the damn hit another car...


Wow... post a simple question and there are over 90 follow up posts to it!!! Over the years I have known and/or worked with probably a dozen Linhof Technika owners. One was a camera collector and the others serious users. But even the camera collector that I had worked with took out his Technika outfit on a regular basis and used it. He even let me borrow it one time. Every one of those owners knew how to operate and take advantage of their camera's features. The Technika reminds me of Porsche cars. Superbly precision design, engineering, and construction with amazing capabilities. Definitely a high end product akin to a Technika. But a big difference with the Porsche owners... I see many people around here this time of the year driving around in their $100,000.00 plus Porsches. By observing how they drive, I can deduce that at least half of them have no idea how to drive their Porsches. About 10 years ago I had a neighbor who drove a $150,000.00 plus model who I swear never revved her engine above 3K. Heck back then I revved my classic 1970s Beetle engine up to 3.2K all the time.

[Bob Salomon]

I couldn't disagree more. I find it amazing that a company that was founded in 1887 is still producing high-precision, hand-machined cameras in the same building as 133 years ago. What an accomplishment! Of course it is very expensive to keep highly trained workers employed to produce a handful of cameras because the market essentially disappeared. Do you think they are charging so much just for fun? I guess they have been at the verge of bankruptcy for decades but somehow managed to stay afloat, which is quite amazing.
Not the “same building”. Valentin LInhof started by making shutters. Then cameras. The building you see now was heavily damaged in WW ll. It was rebuilt after the war. When this building was originally built the area was mostly farm land and it was built to resemble a farm building. That helped it escape bombing until late in the war.
There are a series of photos on a wall of their factory showing the factory after the bombing and then showing the rebuilding.

[Bob Salomon]

Oops into my territory. I have had more VW's than cameras and I have a lot of cameras

Back in the day we flogged any VW, my new 1970 Bug was constantly shifted way past 3.2K, for 100K miles in under 2 years then the damn hit another car...

I’m on my 12th VW. Everything from the 2 window bug to the Kardan Ghia to that strange little station wagon in the early 70s to several Passats, the CC and now the Jetta.
VW even traded me my Passat for the original W12 Phaeton for a week. Unfortunately they would not let me keep it. I offered them that I lease the Phaeton for the same payment for my Passat lease. Instead they gave me a book, 2 bottles of German wine and a very nice rosewood wine opener set.

[Tin Can]

Had the fuel injected fastback

It got 28 MPG at 90 MPH

Astounding



I’m on my 12th VW. Everything from the 2 window bug to the Kardan Ghia to that strange little station wagon in the early 70s to several Passats, the CC and now the Jetta.
VW even traded me my Passat for the original W12 Phaeton for a week. Unfortunately they would not let me keep it. I offered them that I lease the Phaeton for the same payment for my Passat lease. Instead they gave me a book, 2 bottles of German wine and a very nice rosewood wine opener set.

[Dugan]

Kardan Ghia .

Bob, your Linhof is showing. :)

[Sal Santamaura]

It's entertaining to watch what happened after Hiromi retired and those who couldn't afford new Ebony cameras were "forced" over to complaining about Linhof. :)


I've used an Ebony, not impressed in the slightest.


OK, then, both bases covered in one thread. :)

[Corran]

Well except I am capable of owning an Ebony, and have 6 Linhof cameras. Just because something is expensive, doesn't mean it's automatically better, is the point. But there's always someone who thinks its just "sour grapes..."

[Daniel Casper Lohenstein]

IMHO, this is a debate based on envy.

One should actually congratulate the OP: large format photography is so important to him that he is considering underpinning this point of view with a statement - with the investment in a new tool that literally opens up perspectives and points of view (the other day a woman in a nature reserve asked me: "Can you see anything?").

Instead, people are spoiling this esprit by devaluing it as bourgeois luxury thinking, by talking down the working tool and pointing out that you would get just as far with a plywood camera.

But in reality the whole 4x5 story is already "luxury". Of course that's not what the low-cost producers tell the beginners. IMO, a special flavour of "luxury" is spending hours running around with a tripod and a dark cloth, operating a shaky focus, researching cheap film cassettes on Ebay, then messing up a sheet of 4x5 in a cheap camera, and in case that doesn't work, buying expired film or shoddy new material, and in case that good pictures still come out, flanging an enlarger attachment. And at the end to say that 4x5 was only meant to be tried out in order to gain experience. And to shoot a Youtube video about it.

If you have to earn money with your pictures (what a nightmare!), you will work digitally in the 21st century. For example with a Nikon D6 and the adequate flash, zoom, computer printer etc.

Tschau zäme!


Wow... post a simple question and there are over 90 follow up posts to it!!!

[Tin Can]

You won your Internet today!


IMHO, this is a debate based on envy.

One should actually congratulate the OP: large format photography is so important to him that he is considering underpinning this point of view with a statement - with the investment in a new tool that literally opens up perspectives and points of view (the other day a woman in a nature reserve asked me: "Can you see anything?").

Instead, people are spoiling this esprit by devaluing it as bourgeois luxury thinking, by talking down the working tool and pointing out that you would get just as far with a plywood camera.

But in reality the whole 4x5 story is already "luxury". Of course that's not what the low-cost producers tell the beginners. IMO, a special flavour of "luxury" is spending hours running around with a tripod and a dark cloth, operating a shaky focus, researching cheap film cassettes on Ebay, then messing up a sheet of 4x5 in a cheap camera, and in case that doesn't work, buying expired film or shoddy new material, and in case that good pictures still come out, flanging an enlarger attachment. And at the end to say that 4x5 was only meant to be tried out in order to gain experience. And to shoot a Youtube video about it.

If you have to earn money with your pictures (what a nightmare!), you will work digitally in the 21st century. For example with a Nikon D6 and the adequate flash, zoom, computer printer etc.

Tschau zäme!

[Daniel Casper Lohenstein]

Thank you. Not my own thought. But something repeated in an appropriate sense. We are all very privileged. So the camera doesn't matter anymore.

[Corran]

Sure, we all engage in a luxury activity compared to starving kids in Africa. If that concerns you and you have $13k burning a hole in your pocket, you'd be just as well spending $1500 on a new Chamonix or something similar and donating the other $11,500 to a charity.

Envy: a feeling of discontented or resentful longing aroused by someone else's possessions, qualities, or luck.

One of the aspects about owning an expensive item is also being realistic about its abilities. Despite owning two Master Technikas, on Saturday I hiked and made 5 4x5 photographs (https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?44249-Large-Format-Landscapes&p=1563386&viewfull=1#post1563386)with two different 3D-printed cameras, an Intrepid and a Mercury. The Mercury is I think around $200 and is vastly easier to use than the Technika as an ultrawide camera (my Mercury is dedicated to just a 47mm XL on a helical). The Intrepid is a great camera and I've been very happy with it, using lenses from 90mm to 240mm. The two cameras together still weigh several pounds less than my Technika.

And of course the photographer makes the photograph, not the camera. Let's not forget.

[Sal Santamaura]

Well except I am capable of owning an Ebony, and have 6 Linhof cameras. Just because something is expensive, doesn't mean it's automatically better, is the point. But there's always someone who thinks its just "sour grapes..."

It's important to read all the words in a post. Specifically, the word "new." A half dozen used Linhof cameras are not a half dozen Linhof cameras purchased today at new prices. Or a half dozen Ebony cameras, when they were in production, purchased at new prices.

It's also important to recognize that many times those reacting to posts in forum threads assume everything's about them when it's not. Especially when there are multiple posters whining about the cost and "luxury status" of a particular company's newly manufactured product, not just them. :)

[Corran]

Okay Sal :rolleyes:.

As an aside, I thought these two feeds were interesting comparatively:

https://www.instagram.com/intrepidcamera/

https://www.instagram.com/linhof_munich/

I follow both.

[Kiwi7475]

Wow... post a simple question and there are over 90 follow up posts to it!!! Over the years I have known and/or worked with probably a dozen Linhof Technika owners. One was a camera collector and the others serious users. But even the camera collector that I had worked with took out his Technika outfit on a regular basis and used it. He even let me borrow it one time. Every one of those owners knew how to operate and take advantage of their camera's features. The Technika reminds me of Porsche cars. Superbly precision design, engineering, and construction with amazing capabilities. Definitely a high end product akin to a Technika. But a big difference with the Porsche owners... I see many people around here this time of the year driving around in their $100,000.00 plus Porsches. By observing how they drive, I can deduce that at least half of them have no idea how to drive their Porsches. About 10 years ago I had a neighbor who drove a $150,000.00 plus model who I swear never revved her engine above 3K. Heck back then I revved my classic 1970s Beetle engine up to 3.2K all the time.


Wow... post a simple question and there are over 90 follow up posts to it!!! Over the years I have known and/or worked with probably a dozen Linhof Technika owners. One was a camera collector and the others serious users. But even the camera collector that I had worked with took out his Technika outfit on a regular basis and used it. He even let me borrow it one time. Every one of those owners knew how to operate and take advantage of their camera's features. The Technika reminds me of Porsche cars. Superbly precision design, engineering, and construction with amazing capabilities. Definitely a high end product akin to a Technika. But a big difference with the Porsche owners... I see many people around here this time of the year driving around in their $100,000.00 plus Porsches. By observing how they drive, I can deduce that at least half of them have no idea how to drive their Porsches. About 10 years ago I had a neighbor who drove a $150,000.00 plus model who I swear never revved her engine above 3K. Heck back then I revved my classic 1970s Beetle engine up to 3.2K all the time.

See what you did? :-)

I think now you owe it to all of us and to yourself to buy a new Linhof and report back whether you think the purchase can be justified! ;-)

[Havoc]

While I do agree that nobody has to justify his purchases except on the base of not hurting yourself and those next to you, I cannot find "quality and engineering" a reason to justify it. I have just seen the Linhof 220 from the inside and as an engineer, this is not quality and not good engineering. Certainly not to justify what it has cost all those years ago. This is a mediocre camera sold for more than it is worth, just on the nametag pasted on it. I do not think that companies change their habits more than a leppard can change its spots.

If you think that it will get you better photos or that you will feel better about your photos or whatever, go ahead. But not that you have bought something of exceptional quality or engineering.

[Daniel Casper Lohenstein]

Okay Sal :rolleyes:.

As an aside, I thought these two feeds were interesting comparatively:

https://www.instagram.com/intrepidcamera/

https://www.instagram.com/linhof_munich/

I follow both.

People photographing themselves with devices. Over and over again. If Weston had taken mobile phone pictures of himself standing on the dune, of the ground glass of his 8x10 ... Today everything is documented on Youtube, Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, TikTok. Authenticity seems to be the existence in a given situation with a given accessoir. - "To exist" is defined as "being like this", with an individuating prosthesis of an otherwise collectivized uniform self-praxis. Was it different 75 years ago? - What I learn from the discussion here is that you obey your heart and otherwise stay out of everything. Otherwise, you'll just be unhappy.

[Tin Can]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder

and most buyers like what they paid for

or they send it back

Even Edsel are now valued and sold very poorly new

EDSEL PRICE GUIDE

http://www.edsel.com/pages/prices.htm

[Corran]

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/cvjNBf3-TBSxGGgBHmdgWizpFiBFT1IULAg9nBvoBbWTCF02QITQVutnrv6drM6lT5xTpNEkkzmyU6sOh4cGueOX2MPqRf9gC8m_dgGuO93Eip4ZsiqhkwPDLTucoACmXH6A2g

https://artsy-media-uploads.s3.amazonaws.com/6B049-6-swsiaduWDpV38w%2Fansel.jpg

[Havoc]

Even Edsel are now valued and sold very poorly new

Edsels might be beautiful but I would never call them quality or well engineered. Not even owners would call them that.

[Tin Can]

Na


edsels might be beautiful but i would never call them quality or well engineered. Not even owners would call them that.

[Bob Salomon]

Edsels might be beautiful but I would never call them quality or well engineered. Not even owners would call them that.

Edsels cost our family a lot of money.
My grandfather owned the DeSoto Plymouth dealership in Bridgeport, CT. He retired in 56 but kept the showroom. He rented it on a long term lease to a new car dealer selling the Edsel when they came out. A couple of years later he was stuck with the showroom as Edsel disappeared. Having no choice he finally sold the building for far less then it was worth and it became the Pontiac dealership.
If he had waited it out a few more years I would have been in the car business selling VWs as that’s what his brothers did in New Haven with their dealership.

[Havoc]

Again I find that few have real experience of quality and engineering of Linhof. I agree that mine is based only on the 220 and a single problematic shutter. Compared to all the other stuff I have that is a bad record.

[Bob Salomon]

Again I find that few have real experience of quality and engineering of Linhof. I agree that mine is based only on the 220 and a single problematic shutter. Compared to all the other stuff I have that is a bad record.

You have the old tan 220 which hasn’t been made since the 70s or one of the later black ones?
If you are having a problem with the shutter it is a Compur. Have a professional give it a long overdue CLA. Probably should them also do it to the body also. As long as parts aren’t needed it should become very useable.
The most common problem with the tan one was with the cord that fired the shutter from the Rollei pistol grip trigger.

[Daniel Casper Lohenstein]

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/cvjNBf3-TBSxGGgBHmdgWizpFiBFT1IULAg9nBvoBbWTCF02QITQVutnrv6drM6lT5xTpNEkkzmyU6sOh4cGueOX2MPqRf9gC8m_dgGuO93Eip4ZsiqhkwPDLTucoACmXH6A2g

https://artsy-media-uploads.s3.amazonaws.com/6B049-6-swsiaduWDpV38w%2Fansel.jpg

This is a full-scaled zone system fine art portrait from bottom up front, in his best suit, from his best side, no snapshot or selfie with selfie stick ...

[abruzzi]

This is a full-scaled zone system fine art portrait from bottom up front, in his best suit, from his best side, no snapshot or selfie with selfie stick ...

but there's almost no shadow detail above his shoulder....

[Tin Can]

U need to see the print


but there's almost no shadow detail above his shoulder....

[Daniel Casper Lohenstein]

but there's almost no shadow detail above his shoulder....

So what? Dark, mysterious shadows are definitely part of the program, in II and I.

[giganova]

Linhof Technikas are really fine pieces of equipment, especially the Master Technika 3000 without the useless (to me) rangefinder. If I had the spare $, I'd get me one. Inspired by your post, I took my Master Technika V completely apart yesterday, cleaned and lubricated it and it operates now butter smooth like new again.

[Bob Salomon]

Linhof Technikas are really fine pieces of equipment, especially the Master Technika 300 without the useless (to me) rangefinder. If I had the spare $, I'd get me one. Inspired by your post, I took my Master Technika V completely apart yesterday, cleaned and lubricated it and it operates now butter smooth like new again.

3000.