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pepeguitarra
15-Mar-2019, 07:10
I intent to use Southern California sun light to contact print my 8x10s. I am building a contact frame with a dark slide on top that will allow me to do my test strip first, then I will contact print the full page using the same device. Have you done it? What can I expect? This is an alternative to building a dark room. I already have information on how to print temporarily in the bathroom but I want to explore the sun. Thanks.

bob carnie
15-Mar-2019, 07:25
I intent to use Southern California sun light to contact print my 8x10s. I am building a contact frame with a dark slide on top that will allow me to do my test strip first, then I will contact print the full page using the same device. Have you done it? What can I expect? This is an alternative to building a dark room. I already have information on how to print temporarily in the bathroom but I want to explore the sun. Thanks.

Ian Leake who visits here has made a device to measure the light consistently for repeating results... it slips on the contact frame and I would be of great help ... I did a workshop in Riverside CA one year and was amazed at the intensity of the Southern California light..

Pere Casals
15-Mar-2019, 07:26
I intent to use Southern California sun light to contact print my 8x10s. I am building a contact frame with a dark slide on top that will allow me to do my test strip first, then I will contact print the full page using the same device. Have you done it? What can I expect? This is an alternative to building a dark room. I already have information on how to print temporarily in the bathroom but I want to explore the sun. Thanks.

With regular photopaper ?

With direct sunlight you may need an exposure of around 1/1000s, I guess.

Direct sunlight throws some 100,000 lux, in the shade you have 20,000.

An enlarger may produce say 100 lux, but it's often used way under that

John Kasaian
15-Mar-2019, 08:22
Early on, Ansel Adams used sunlight.
IIRC his biggest issue concerned passing clouds.
His account was written up in one of the books in his trilogy, perhaps in The Print?

Randy Moe
15-Mar-2019, 08:31
I also plan to do this. Just for fun. I have a darkroom.

As Pere, suggests, it's a lot of light. Maybe I will use slower AZO.

And on the covered porch under heavy clouds.

Test strips indeed!

I will meter and compare

Pere Casals
15-Mar-2019, 08:33
Early on, Ansel Adams used sunlight.


1900 kodak manuals were instructing how to use sunlight for printing.



but I want to explore the sun.

A way would be using a film holder to build the contact frame, and using the view camera with a lens/shutter/diafragm to dim light. Just a piece of white paper placed on the lens would provide a good light diffusion.

pepeguitarra
15-Mar-2019, 08:51
I also plan to do this. Just for fun. I have a darkroom.

As Pere, suggests, it's a lot of light. Maybe I will use slower AZO.

And on the covered porch under heavy clouds.

Test strips indeed!

I will meter and compare

I saw a video of a guy from East Europe doing collodion (and other derivative print methods) using the daylight. He put it on the sun and suggested that it would take 3 minutes, but in the shade, it would take 20 minutes and get better shadow detail. I intent to experiment first in the shade, and if needed the sun. Maybe I will have a ground glass instead of a transparent glass for the contact.

Doremus Scudder
15-Mar-2019, 10:04
You guys need to find/make some good old-fashioned POP (printing-out paper). Exposure was done in sunlight, it was self-masking, ensuring good highlights and shadows and took a rather long time to expose in the sun. Exposure was checked by lifting a corner of the negative and actually viewing the image to see how it was doing. When properly exposed, the image was fixed and then toned. Very beautiful images on old POP, in my opinion. I think someone still makes a paper like this...

Best,

Doremus

Drew Wiley
15-Mar-2019, 10:26
It's the ONLY way it was done for most the 19th Century, employed by thousands of photographers worldwide, so implying there's a proven track record is an understatement. Plenty of tips in literature, mostly involving how to achieve consistency. Bob's tip to use some kind of light integrator which actually measures the cumulative amount of light falling on the contact frame can save a lot of headaches. But you have to differentiate whether you are going to be dealing with some kind of routine graded or VC silver paper quite sensitive to light generally, or with much slower, mainly UV-sensitive alternate coatings. There are various light measuring options sold on the internet. Sandy King wrote a review about them and UV printing devices, but mostly relative to carbon printing. You could contact him, unless he chimes into this thread first. I've played with sunlight using Azo, with excellent results.

Mark Sampson
15-Mar-2019, 12:41
POP is gone. Kentmere in England was the last manufacturer; they supplied Chicago Albumen Works in the USA. Kodak discontinued their Studio Proof paper in the 90s. When Ilford took Kentmere over, they discontinued it, as its manufacture could not meet health & safety requirements (on top of the tiny market for it, I suppose). Too bad, I'd have liked to try it. But if you want to use the sun to print, the 19th century (alternative) print processes look like the way to go.

Jac@stafford.net
15-Mar-2019, 13:07
As Pere, suggests, it's a lot of light. Maybe I will use slower AZO.

Can we still get real AZO?

Randy Moe
15-Mar-2019, 13:22
No, but I have a good supply. found on the floor of an abandoned Detroit Darkroom with broken windows. Chilled as it lay...

Recently on this forum 20X24 inch AZO was sold. A good quantity.

One print in the 2018/2019 Print Exchange is a portrait on AZO.

Top of the stack!




Can we still get real AZO?

adelorenzo
15-Mar-2019, 13:41
No, but I have a good supply. found on the floor of an abandoned Detroit Darkroom with broken windows. Chilled as it lay...

Wow! That's quite a find and a I bet its a great story Randy.

Mike in NY
15-Mar-2019, 14:15
Freestyle sells a PoP kit that you can use to make your own. See it here: https://www.freestylephoto.biz/070110-Formulary-Printing-Out-Paper-Salt-Process-Powder-Kit-500ml

Randy Moe
15-Mar-2019, 14:15
It's a great story!

A person in Detroit found me on this forum about 6 years ago. Not an active member.

He offered me 2 free Elwoods if I came and got them. They were in an abandoned Darkroom above an old man bar. I was living in Chicago and could barely walk, my ankles were shot. I was 50 lbs heavier than now.

I crawled into my old Ford van and got there as soon as I could.

The donor wasn't his best either, but his 16 year old son was game. The young man did most of the work, we old men tried to not fall down the outside stairs. It was cold and wet. I slipped the muscle some cash. They both were happy.

The bar patrons ignored us the entire time.

2 Elwoods were put in the van, then we got a third from a yard. 1 5X7, 2 8X10.

Just as we were leaving the Darkroom, I spotted 2 Kodak yellow boxes in the middle of the floor. I picked them, they were heavy, one sealed. 500 sheet boxes of 8X10 AZO, no date. I didn't know anything about AZO, but asked if I could take that too. The donor said sure. I bet it would have been trash shortly as the whole room was in shambles. Actually the entire building was very rough.

I gave one 8 X 10 Elwood away to a friend and still have the other 2.

The 5X7 is in my Darkroom and the 8X10 is in a dry shed waiting...for Godot perhaps...




Wow! That's quite a find and a I bet its a great story Randy.

peter schrager
15-Mar-2019, 14:30
You guys need to find/make some good old-fashioned POP (printing-out paper). Exposure was done in sunlight, it was self-masking, ensuring good highlights and shadows and took a rather long time to expose in the sun. Exposure was checked by lifting a corner of the negative and actually viewing the image to see how it was doing. When properly exposed, the image was fixed and then toned. Very beautiful images on old POP, in my opinion. I think someone still makes a paper like this...

Best,

Doremus
the paper is gone. No one makes it anymore. you can either do alternative process like cyanotype; platinum/ppalladium etc.
there is also POP Collodion paper which I learned to make with Mark Osterman. that's a beautiful process and also uses the sun
using regular photo paper is going to be hard. I'm not saying it's not doable but why bother?? the printing speeds are way too fast.
most of all have fun!!
Best, Peter

jnantz
15-Mar-2019, 17:17
Sunlight works great with Physautotypes and Retina Prints.
http://www.photo-museum.org/niepce-invention-photography/

Doug Herta
15-Mar-2019, 19:38
Can we still get real AZO?

The closest thing to AZO at this point is Lodima (amidol spelled backwards - lodima.org) which I have tried and like. There is another slow silver chloride paper in the market -Adox Lupex. Have not tried it.

The challenge with the sun is the differing amounts of UV depending on haze, time of day, etc. I would try cyanotypes (Blueprint) chemistry before sticking POP, silver chloride or (god forbid because of the expense) platinum or palladium out in the sun. The variability of the UV quantity in the sunlight drove me to using a bank of UV florescent tubes so I could get consistent results. The sun in Seattle is much more variable than in So Cal so YMMV!

Randy Moe
16-Mar-2019, 01:11
Some of us have UV meters

Bruce Barlow
16-Mar-2019, 04:01
PT/PD works well exposed to sunlight. Surprised nobody's mentioned it.

j.e.simmons
16-Mar-2019, 04:21
I tried printing salt prints with sunlight in Florida. I found open shade to be best, giving more shadow detail and more consistent exposure times. But I went back to my UV light source. It was consistent and could be used any day - or night.

BrianShaw
16-Mar-2019, 07:51
The UV in sunlight, when that is the critical factor for exposure, varies by latitude, season, and time of day so exposure time is rather variable. Exposure can also affected by heat, especially for gelatin- based alt processes, so that is another complication to factor in to the equation.

BrianShaw
16-Mar-2019, 07:53
Some of us have UV meters

Lucky!

Randy Moe
16-Mar-2019, 08:26
No luck involved

Priorities vary

:)


Lucky!

lanactoor
16-Mar-2019, 10:27
Exposure times with modern photo paper would need to be pretty quick as mentioned before; likely fractions of a second, as if you were shooting paper negatives.

In fact, if you find contact printing via the sun unworkable, I would recommend shooting paper negatives and then doing reversal processing on them. You're left without a negative, but you do get a positive print exposed by sunlight.

POP is no longer manufactured but you can pretty easily do it yourself if you have the materials on hand.

188856

peter schrager
16-Mar-2019, 10:49
Exposure times with modern photo paper would need to be pretty quick as mentioned before; likely fractions of a second, as if you were shooting paper negatives.

In fact, if you find contact printing via the sun unworkable, I would recommend shooting paper negatives and then doing reversal processing on them. You're left without a negative, but you do get a positive print exposed by sunlight.

POP is no longer manufactured but you can pretty easily do it yourself if you have the materials on hand.

188856
those are salt prints..correct??

lanactoor
16-Mar-2019, 11:46
Yep, silver chloride emulsion by way of sodium/ammonium chloride, gelatin, and silver nitrate. There's lots of recipes out there that work fairly well and can produce a wide range of subtle variations in tones & final color. It's great fun for those so inclined.

Those were contact printed from an 8x10 negative in the noon sun for a few minutes. The one on the right is still a bit wet so the color is warmer, but I expect it to cool down a bit as it dries. Though, not as much as the one on the left, which was toned in very dilute selenium for much longer.

peter schrager
16-Mar-2019, 15:21
Yep, silver chloride emulsion by way of sodium/ammonium chloride, gelatin, and silver nitrate. There's lots of recipes out there that work fairly well and can produce a wide range of subtle variations in tones & final color. It's great fun for those so inclined.

Those were contact printed from an 8x10 negative in the noon sun for a few minutes. The one on the right is still a bit wet so the color is warmer, but I expect it to cool down a bit as it dries. Though, not as much as the one on the left, which was toned in very dilute selenium for much longer.
They are both very nice..good work and thanks for sharing!!

Duolab123
16-Mar-2019, 22:08
I picked up a box of Centennial POP sealed box. It's the stuff Kentmere made for Chicago Albumen Works. It still works. Untoned it's brick red. It has an excess of un-reacted silver nitrate in the gelatin. This stuff was all anyone used until Velox came along. I have no idea how regular photo paper would work. Just to be clear, you don't develop POP. The sun does all the darkening, then you fix in straight dilute sodium thiosulfate. Toning with Gold is what brings out the print. Or as mentioned you can use Selenium, but you need to get dilution and pH right or in a matter of seconds you will go wow that's beautiful, to why is my print fading away.
If you use selenium you need to make sure the print is well fixed or the Se will react with the residual silver chloride. Gold doesn't react with silver chloride.

I'm more interested in Carbon and gum bichromate than POP. Azo and other straight silver chloride emulsion papers are amazing. The blacks are incredible, toning with Se or Kodak Blue Toner (Gold) makes for amazing cold blacks.

Jim Andrada
17-Mar-2019, 16:17
Yes indeed. Mark is right on. Platinum/Palladium, and others are printing out processes.

We have no shortage of sunlight here in Tucson.

Drew Wiley
18-Mar-2019, 17:54
If you print on ordinary silver paper instead, you could slow down the exposure using neutral density lighting gels over the contact frame.