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Corran
13-Mar-2019, 17:04
I know I'm not the first to do this, but I have been wanting to give it a go for myself, recording some on-location sound to accompany my photographs.

I have been interested in recording natural sounds since I was young. When I was in middle school and bought one of the first MP3 players on the market, I found that it had a built-in microphone for dictation. I used this on occasion to record sounds from when I would wander the vast forest behind my parent's house. As I got older, recording became a big interest, and in college I made a business out of recording live concerts. While I have somewhat retired from that, I still have most of my gear, including some high-end mics that I've been wanting to take into the woods.

So I packed up some gear today and went back to Blood Mountain, which I had hiked this past Sunday (see the Small Format / Medium Format threads). I recorded sounds at some of the same locations to match my images and made a simple video. For those interested in the technical, I used a pair of Earthworks QTC1 mics (now sold as QTC40's) in conjunction with a Jecklin Disk for more spacious stereo sound. Wind, as expected, was an issue, but I tried to mitigate it as much as I could with basic windscreens. I just bought online some 100mph windscreens so I will try those out next time. Anyway, I recorded into a Zoom H6 recorder at 96kHz, 24-bit. These mics are really amazing because they capture from 4 to 40,000Hz, twice as high as typical good human hearing, and the fidelity from complex high-frequency sounds is obvious (such as water). I had to bring along a beefy USB powerbank for the Zoom recorder because these mics are super power-hungry and kill a set of batteries instantly.

Here's a pic of the setup:
http://www.garrisaudiovisual.com/photosharing/rec1ss.jpg

Here's the video with 5 images from the Blood Mountain hike from the Byron Reece Trailhead to the summit via the Appalachian Trail, and back on the Freeman Trail. For you eagle-eyed viewers, you'll notice one image on 8x20 I shot in 2017 that I added since it was taken at the Byron Reece Trailhead.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUvKxn6Tfbo

Might give a go to recording some more of these at some of my favorite local hikes. What do you think? Already done to death? A good companion to photographs? Would love to hear your thoughts and feel free to share your own photographs+sounds videos or recordings.

Tin Can
13-Mar-2019, 21:41
Really like!

LabRat
14-Mar-2019, 01:29
A good background, but audio recordings take a long time to get a decent run time, unless it's a loop, and things get repetitive fast, and you increase your chance to pick up unwanted noise (even you)... Planes go by, cars etc and wind will cause that compression effect (but sounds great going through trees!!!) Moving water, rain is great but not always wet in accompanied photos, so can be tough to marry... Can often be apples and oranges mixed together...

I did environmental recording for awhile, and I think it is much easier to just take an exposure and let it do the talking it that supreme moment of time...

But good luck, and happy hunting!!!

Steve K

CreationBear
14-Mar-2019, 06:44
Very cool, you ought to throw a shotgun mike in the pack, especially this time of year--nothing quite conveys "airy high country" like the "cronk" of a raven. The wood thrushes will start sifting in soon, too, and you can always find phoebes streamside as well. (Extra points if you can catch a grouse drumming...:))

Corran
14-Mar-2019, 09:10
Thanks guys.

Steve, good point, though I was surprised at how different some of the flowing water sounded in various locations. A couple weeks ago I was at a waterfall that was really pounding, and would've liked to have that recording. Really need the heavy-duty windscreens though for that kinda thing due to wind/moisture. Also, I didn't quite find a good place yesterday, but I want to get some stereo sound that has extreme left-to-right movement to really enhance the experience.

CB - yes, I thought about bringing a shotgun (mic :)) but I didn't hear much wildlife yesterday. The birds are abundant in my backyard though so I might give it a whirl out there sometime. The crows around our house wake me up in the morning and have convened on top of my car on occasion, ruining my paint job...

Many moons ago I was hammocking outside my house just for fun and some raccoons started fighting about 50 feet from me. Talk about a hellish noise. Wish I could record that, just to show people the absolutely freakish sounds those animals make!

Tin Can
14-Mar-2019, 09:59
I subscribe to a free ambient sounds website. Or buy the guy a cup of coffee. I did.

Creative Field Recording https://www.creativefieldrecording.com/about-2/

He is pretty intense about sound with updates now and then.

Many downloadable files from all over the world.

Last time I looked he was trying to capture treetop sound!

CreationBear
14-Mar-2019, 10:06
I thought about bringing a shotgun

Well, there are certainly still places here in the Mountain South where si vis pacem, para bellum represents the better part of valour.:)

At any rate, good luck with your "soundscape" project--like so much on this particular forum, you'll probably run into the "through a glass darkly" problem in getting feedback since everyone's output device(s) vary so widely, but I could see where sound loop could be a "value added" part of an installation and/or gallery space.

(BTW, don't be in your hammock when a screech owl starts whinnying above your head...:))

Corran
14-Mar-2019, 10:31
Thanks for the link Randy, I'll check him out. I have a lot of respect for Foley artists - it's an interesting genre. I have done a tiny bit of it, back when I was the sound designer for a few small indie movies. Atlanta is the new hot place for movie production and many of my friends/family think I should work on sets but that's not my thing.

CB - I have thought a lot about sound and also video in the gallery. I don't think it's something that has been explored enough. I have a few video ideas that I think would be pretty amazing but I don't have the gear or money to do what I want to do (specifically I have some ideas for extreme slow-motion video). In terms of my video - lots of folks take video outdoors and add natural ambient sound. A static black-and-white image evokes something different. Timelessness? I haven't seen such a pairing before. A bit of "old and new" combined.

Regarding output devices - I am lucky enough to have a very nice monitor setup with KRK monitors/sub, so my auditory experience is top-notch. I imagine listening to this from a cell phone or laptop is uninspiring to say the least.

Andy Eads
14-Mar-2019, 13:08
My brother and I were traveling through the Columbia Gorge near Pony Tail Falls. He did not have a camera along but I was happily shooting stills with a Nikon D750. He asked if I would make a video of the falls and so I did. I made videos professionally for about 4 years of my career. The sounds of the wind, water and people fit so well with the video. But I felt the stills had their own character and would stand alone better without the sounds. I don't think this is a universal rule but I am a still photographer at heart. I will leave the sound and motion to others.

Vaughn
14-Mar-2019, 14:18
Sounds like a fun project. :cool:

I found some discordance between images of water and the sounds of water. While images without water and with the slow pan of the prints worked well, I felt there was a fight between the frozen light (my brand-new term for photographic images of moving water) and the sound of water. What I was hearing and what I was seeing were two very different things that did not reinforce each other well. The sound just sounded 'added', not a part of the image.

The scenes without water worked for me because of the panning within the still image. Panning a still image is different from a slow pan of the scene itself with a camera. Because spacial relationships do not alter when panning a still image, my brain interpreted the movement of the panning as the branches themselves moving...an interpretation influenced significantly by hearing the sound track (which is what I meant by positively reinforcing each other).

Good luck in the project!

Corran
14-Mar-2019, 16:13
Thanks for your thoughts Vaughn! I was thinking a lot about the use of sound with a static image and how it would be interpreted. I get what you are saying with regard to the water movement, or lack thereof. The interesting thing to me, is the water was moving for the image, since it's a long exposure, so my mind sees that and interprets it as movement. Of course I'm not a good judge because I was there and took the image / made the recording so I have a different implicit reaction but it is very interesting.

I am reminded of those back-lit images with "moving" water effects that were often seen in Chinese Buffets when I was young. I used to see them for sale at weekend flea markets and I actually bought a translucent print of a forest scene was I was a teenager that I think was supposed to be back-lit. It's still in my old room in my dad's house.

Peter De Smidt
14-Mar-2019, 16:15
Those are some pretty pricey microphones!

Corran
14-Mar-2019, 16:43
Ayup! These were the first real "pro" mics I bought when my business was ramping up, back almost 15 years ago now. They were actually purchased second-hand from a retired NPR recording engineer who had them custom made in black finish (normally, they are silver). I also have a pair of their cardioid siblings, the SR-30 model, which might be a good companion for directional sound rather than the cheap shotgun I have, if not too far away.

Tin Can
14-Mar-2019, 17:00
Then there were moving scenes without sound.

I remember these well. Now worth big cash.

Scene-O-Rama (https://youtu.be/swSuPDm1AYs)

Vaughn
14-Mar-2019, 17:22
Thanks for your thoughts Vaughn! I was thinking a lot about the use of sound with a static image and how it would be interpreted. I get what you are saying with regard to the water movement, or lack thereof. The interesting thing to me, is the water was moving for the image, since it's a long exposure, so my mind sees that and interprets it as movement. Of course I'm not a good judge because I was there and took the image / made the recording so I have a different implicit reaction but it is very interesting.

I am reminded of those back-lit images with "moving" water effects that were often seen in Chinese Buffets when I was young. I used to see them for sale at weekend flea markets and I actually bought a translucent print of a forest scene was I was a teenager that I think was supposed to be back-lit. It's still in my old room in my dad's house.

And I remember a Hamm's beer sign at a cafe in Maricopa, CA in the late 50s/early60s; "From the Land of Sky Blue Waters" with the water effect done mechanically rather than lights. I had my first malted milkshake there.

Take what I said with a grain of salt -- it is probably not the majority opinion/reaction. But combining the two should take considerable thought. Like having text with one's images...does add or not to the total. Would the subtlity of a single blade of highlighted grass moving in an otherwise still scene be lessen with the sound of wind, for example. Or can it be inhanced? Can just the visual image make the viewer feel the light breeze on their cheek...and with the addition of sound, can the viewer not only feel the breeze, but sense its direction?

Fun stuff!

Corran
14-Mar-2019, 18:03
The scrolling mechanical scene is very interesting!


and with the addition of sound, can the viewer not only feel the breeze, but sense its direction?

That's what I'm really interested in!

jp
14-Mar-2019, 18:40
Don't know much about your mics but Zoom recorders are great. I work with a drummer who records his gigs with a Zoom and it's a big challenge to make a recording from his point of view, and the zoom does well at it. We've also recorded spoken word for phone systems and the zoom did a much better job than a lav mic plugged into a laptop.

I've been in nature many times and have been very awed by the sounds, so I understand why you want to do it... I've had mixed results.. One video the trees were coated with ice and the wind was clinking the little branches together; thinks icycles rattling instead of leaves rustling... My Nikon's mic was better than my cell phone, but it caught my breathing as well as the ice sounds and didn't do justice to the ice... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VaV_24ggX3Y

So I bought an inexpensive TAKSTAR powered mic for my Nikon which does better.. The shotgun style is not so much to hear things far away but to be less sensitive to noises behind the camera or in the periphery.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3-5goz5vFQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLzwN-vLNiM I don't do enough with recording sound in nature to own a portable recorder and nice mics. If I did, it would be easy to record it separately, line it up in the video editing, and then remove the camera's sound recording.

So I think sound goes well with short video clips/vignettes of places for me... For still B&W photos, I think of them as abstractions so I'd pick non-reality based sound to go with them... But if you can figure out a way for still B&W photos and recorded onsite sound to work together it would be a good exciting challenge.

You've got much nicer gear to get the recording process away from the noisy person recording, and hope you can get nicer sounds than anyone is able to appreciate in listening.

Corran
14-Mar-2019, 19:02
Audio nerd time ;)

The Zoom recorders are nice but the preamps have nasty distortion in the lower-mids that annoys the crap out of me. This is mostly evident in recordings of band/orchestra music, in louder sections. Not too much of a problem here, but depending on what I'm recording, it might become problematic. Since we are having a nice rainstorm with some thunder, I am recording that tonight because why not? Just sticking the mics out door in my basement. The results in the low frequency area will be interesting.

Anyway, for location recording, I like the Zoom well enough but I always wanted a Sound Devices 702. Those were like $2000 back last I remember. My workhorse for recordings was a 24-channel Alesis behemoth in a rolling rack complete with UPS system. That ain't going in the woods, weighing in at about 80 pounds! The Zoom (actually, an older model) was useful for the location movie production shoots I did. I upgraded to the H6 after that one died and it is a great unit. Still has that distortion though...but I am really sensitive to such things.

I have heard those ice sounds and that would be a great example of an unusual sound to record. I agree about the difficulty with regard to video vs. static images. A challenge for sure. Will keep trying.

mmerig
14-Mar-2019, 21:22
Thanks for the sound and pictures. I really enjoyed them. I have never been to the southeast US, and your photos provide nice examples of some of what is out there.

A friend of mine has been recording out-side sounds for years, in the Yellowstone region. I have not heard his recordings, but he has described his process (and I am already familiar with the sounds themselves). I would imagine that your skills are as good or better (or maybe just different) than his. If you want to compare notes, I could get a hold of him about it.

Corran
14-Mar-2019, 22:22
Thanks mmerig. I would definitely be curious to hear what others are doing. Some searching on YouTube netted a fantastical amount of nature recordings, most of it not very good, mostly designed as background noise (remember CD kiosks at the mall or Wal-Mart selling "relaxation" CDs of nature sounds??). Even searching with "high fidelity" and other keywords found little of quality. I am sure there are folks pursuing it seriously out there, but perhaps not on the top of the YouTube search algorithm!

jnantz
15-Mar-2019, 03:41
Hi Bryan
Great stuff !
Have you ever worked with Recordios ( they cut 33 rpm or 78 rpm records on lacquor plates ) or wire recorders ( record sound on a wire filament )
They might be a sound avenue to travel down or DUB onto :) . I had both at one time, they are a lot of fun, and can often be found on the enormous online garage sale.
John

Tin Can
15-Mar-2019, 04:08
John I had both in 1963 and they were very old then.

Fun but lo fi

I have another Wire Recorder now, needs work

Modern audio gear can easily replicate the lo fi sound

Corran
15-Mar-2019, 12:25
I dabbled with 1/4" tape for a while when I was younger. While I might be an ardent supporter of shooting film, recording "analog" just wasn't for me. Though I did like the effect on occasion, it was just a pain in the butt.

Peter De Smidt
15-Mar-2019, 12:31
For awhile I had one of the big Ampex tape recorders. I found it in the abandoned equipment room of my university. When I asked, they said, "It's yours!" Alas, I never got it working.

Tin Can
15-Mar-2019, 12:46
Ancient audio gear does not compare well with ancient prints.

Electricity, electronics, computers have been a much longer path to quality as compared to the rather quick rise to quality with early photography.

Photography matured faster and didn't degrade until the tiny film years of Disc cameras.

But any film is better than any wire recorder...

Tin Can
15-Mar-2019, 15:53
Bryan check out Van Gogh in the Lounge

Pics & Muzak

LabRat
16-Mar-2019, 11:35
Using tape formats today are somewhat like using LF... It is smaller, easier to just use digital and be able to record with a large memory (but with a lot of button pushing) ready to go when you are... For nature recording, just the ticket... But for music/speech recording, tape has a vibe and tone with its own qualities that like a camera system that like a photograph, sounds (looks) great when properly presented (like on a proper listening system, not just a phone or tablet), but present larger logistics issues, like size, weight, media storage, keeping unit aligned/tech issues etc... But a nice full sound (image), and the rig really looks kool... (Sound familiar???)

Microphones are a lot like lenses, with different FOV's, and depending on type or vintage, have a differing rendering like comparing new modern glass (with its cold, hard but very detailed look, to older vintage glass with a smoother, more rounded look...

John was talking about older recording formats that equate to a pinhole or meniscus lens now, not detailed, but with a vibe of its own...

The talk about if we should be using it at home, is a bit of a waste, as most will be merely copying albums etc to listen to, and not do live recording where it's voice does become part of the whole, like in in merely taking pix of stuff, rather creating photographs that the process adds something to the whole...

Then there is the issue of where do you put the media to store/use for the future when it is in its material form responsibly so it lasts, rather than the cloud??? Yea, a pain in the ass!!!

I now work in pro audio (building/repairing/restoring ribbon mics), and have a full vintage analog and cutting edge digital recording studio at my disposal, but my co-workers ask me why I would even consider shooting single sheets of film with all the tech choices of today, and I remind them of how great our vintage gear shines on certain recordings, and that is why...

But another curse to get caught in... ;-)

Steve K

Peter De Smidt
16-Mar-2019, 11:54
Steve, are any of the ribbon mic kits worth doing?

LabRat
16-Mar-2019, 12:30
Steve, are any of the ribbon mic kits worth doing?

They will work (I assume) as they are simple devices, and should sound ok, but I am not familiar with the kits...

The basic bigger differences between cheap mics and high end mics are QA, thinner ribbon material (lighter that responds more quickly/evenly with less mass to overshoot), much better output transformers that step-up the very weak signal, and better overall internal architecture that does not cause internal refractions etc... Then you will need a good pre/preamp to boost the weak signal up to normal mic (low) level...

They have a great natural sound, but a limited polar response (like FOV), and most designs record equally well from behind, but adds the room reflections well for presence... The light ribbons resonate way above the human hearing range, so a peak does not shout at normal hearing range, so smooth uncolored response you hear...


Installing the ribbon is tricky, but possible, but there's getting the tension ok, but there are ways it will work fine, so not rocket science, but hope they include their instructions in the kit!!!

I'll answer any questions that come up about it, if you go that road...

Steve K

Jac@stafford.net
16-Mar-2019, 12:42
Are sounds a higher or lower pitch at greater altitudes? I hiked everywhere as a kid, cannot remember; lost most of my hearing in the war and more later. I am skeptically exploring new-tech hearing aids - a total b*tch to tune. Just wondering if the difference is worthwhile pur$uing.

If the sounds are different I hope Coran pursues the realm.

LabRat
16-Mar-2019, 12:52
Are sounds a higher or lower pitch at greater altitudes? I hiked everywhere as a kid, cannot remember; lost most of my hearing in the war and more later. I am skeptically exploring new-tech hearing aids - a total b*tch to tune. Just wondering if the difference is worthwhile pur$uing.

If the sounds are different I hope Coran pursues the realm.

Altitude no, distance yes... There is that Doppler effect thing where a distant train whistle increases in pitch as it gets nearer to you, and falls after it passes...

As for hearing aids, depends on you hearing (loss) pattern, as I understand you can become hypersensitive to other peaks you can still hear...

Steve K

Jac@stafford.net
16-Mar-2019, 14:57
As for hearing aids, depends on you hearing (loss) pattern, as I understand you can become hypersensitive to other peaks you can still hear...

I cannot hear little bird tweets, my wife, childrens' voices, the turn signal or warnings in my car, the shutter on any camera, my footsteps and much more. Am I blessed or what?

Before I retired my boss would occasionally complain that I was near deaf and my response was that if the company wanted me to hear they could spend the money to buy hearing aids. No go. It was better to retire happy.

Corran
16-Mar-2019, 15:08
Steve, I am out recording right now but I will have to email you later re: Ribbon mics. I have some that need work. I love ribbon mics but obviously not for outdoor recording!

LabRat
16-Mar-2019, 17:56
OK, I'll answer questions... Have the make & model # handy...

Contrary to popular belief, ribbon mics are fragile, but also strong at the same time IF USED CORRECTLY!!! That is, if they are not exposed to strong blasts of air directly from the front or back, like directly in front of a kick drum or bass cabinet, but if the mic was placed slightly off - axis so the wave blast would skim the front or rear, they would be fine... Even at 140 db for ours!!! Blowing into them brings bad news...

They can be used for outdoor recording, but they are a bit heavy and clunky, (and do need the pre-preamp) as long as you are not in strong wind... So quiet, calm nature can be ok...

Steve K

Corran
16-Mar-2019, 18:07
Can't control the wind so taking them outside is a bad proposition. And they need too much gain which induces too much noise in quiet environments. And the high-frequency fall-off makes them very colored. Not a good choice. But I used them all the time for music recordings, from guitar cabinets to symphony orchestras.

LabRat
16-Mar-2019, 18:19
Can't control the wind so taking them outside is a bad proposition. And they need too much gain which induces too much noise in quiet environments. And the high-frequency fall-off makes them very colored. Not a good choice. But I used them all the time for music recordings, from guitar cabinets to symphony orchestras.

A small condenser is fine for that, but the ones with the built-in FET preamp will sometimes have a noise floor on the most quiet recordings...

Steve K

Corran
16-Mar-2019, 21:07
Well apologies for all of the gear talk above. But I did make some more recordings today at Amicalola Falls, the tallest waterfall in GA. This park is just up the road from my place and I photograph there all the time, so I paired the recording with pictures from the last 3 years (120 and 4x5 film).

I tried to make recordings that had some unique elements in the foreground or left-to-right. As noted, the water sounds paired with the static images can be difficult to translate. I will continue experimenting here and next will try for more wind, leaves, etc. once my new wind screens come in.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKOeoadqdpg

CreationBear
17-Mar-2019, 07:19
A nice set of photos--I'd definitely like to see the stream/riparian vegetation shot again if you happen to have the link on LF.:)

Otherwise, I'll look forward to your amassing your sound library--I've spent an unconscionable amount of time waist-deep in streams here in the Southern Highlands, and for myself the charm of their "music" has always been that classic mix of repetition interspersed with novelty.

Gary Beasley
17-Mar-2019, 08:37
I noticed while listening with ear buds the sound is predominated by the high frequencies. Are the lowers harder to get a good record of? A good undertone of the lows can give more sense of power to water movement where appropriate.

Corran
17-Mar-2019, 09:50
Hi Gary! I won't go into all the intricacies of microphone design and frequency response but one of the things I noticed yesterday was that there wasn't that much low frequency to pick up. I didn't take a single photo yesterday, and focused on listening, and it was an interesting experience. I used to just sit in the woods and listen/meditate, but since starting photography I tend to focus on visual aspects rather than auditory. That's another reason I am doing this, to help re-focus my attention. Anyway, the flow of water at Amicalola had a preponderance of high frequency and the water really doesn't "pound" down. A consequence of the cascading falls, rather than hard drops.

A couple weeks ago I was out at a different falls and noticed the pounding of some sheer drops. I want to go back and record that. But I didn't want to "fake" it at Amicalola by boosting the bass artificially with EQ (and it still wouldn't sound the same).

Gary Beasley
17-Mar-2019, 10:19
That is interesting. Ever try to analyse what proportion of infrasound is present? I know you cant really hear it but you do sense and react to a certain amount of it. Get out and record a thunderstorm sometime.

Corran
17-Mar-2019, 10:28
Oh I've done that a lot, in fact a couple nights ago. I don't have any photographs to go with it so I haven't used it in a video, but my 10" subwoofer shakes the house when the thunder hits.

Here's a test out of curiosity, click this: rain/thunder (http://www.garrisaudiovisual.com/photosharing/shortthunderexample.wav)

It was a mild-mannered storm, no loud crashes, but a good test. So the mics I am using pickup sound flat all the way to 4 Hz. This is unusual for most microphones, and there's a lot of other stuff going on with regard to distance to the source, directionality of the microphone, etc. that is just not really appropriate for this forum but if you are interested, research low-frequency response of cardioid vs. omni microphones and you can read all about it.

Gary Beasley
17-Mar-2019, 12:51
Thats a nice clip, has a lot of presence to it. Close your eyes and you can feel the environment around you.

Tin Can
17-Mar-2019, 14:59
Bryan, I trust you do know what you are doing with sound.

I fiddle about with recording, but my tinnitus is so astoundingly loud I cannot stand silence. I listen to music or spoken world 24/7 365. I use classical to sleep to and perhaps folk by day.

My shed is very quiet, no drywall, just sound traps. I need to fix my music system in there.

Yet walking in woods, I do hear birds, frogs and wind in the trees. A woods is never silent.

Water does make interesting music.

The roar of ocean waves crashing on rock or beach is very relaxing.

Keep at this project.

I know you will!:)

Corran
17-Mar-2019, 16:19
Thanks Randy. I feel your pain - I went partially deaf in high school due to a viral infection in my right ear. I have tinnitus in that ear but it mostly doesn't bother me unless I focus on it.

Indeed, walking in the woods, I try to be aware of the symphony of sounds. I recorded some in my backyard earlier today and heard some fascinating birds later which are shy when I am around (I went back inside for a half-hour while it was recording). Didn't get any today, but I also love the woodpecker sounds we hear occasionally in the morning or evening.

Randy
20-Mar-2019, 17:07
What do you think? Already done to death?
Well, if it has been done I must have missed it. I think it is a great idea. Next - some city-scapes with sound...?

Corran
20-Mar-2019, 17:17
Hey, definitely a good idea! Next time I am in Atlanta perhaps.

jmooney
17-Jul-2019, 09:12
Amazing! I have thought of doing the same thing for a while now!!