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ndwgolf
11-Mar-2019, 00:31
Guys
I’m thinking of buying a Rodenstock Macro 210mm lens to use with my Chamonix 8x10 to shoot flowers and basically close up macros.............. what do you guys think of this lens??
Neil

Bob Salomon
11-Mar-2019, 02:50
Guys
I’m thinking of buying a Rodenstock Macro 210mm lens to use with my Chamonix 8x10 to shoot flowers and basically close up macros.............. what do you guys think of this lens??
Neil

Excellent for. 1:3 to 3:1 if you have enough bellows for the ratios and a good enough head to support the camera using that much draw.

Oslolens
11-Mar-2019, 04:30
As Bob said! My Wehman got really wobbly with a 20" Ilex at portrait distance, so I added an extra tripod point on the camera. Or just place the camera on the same table as the motif?
The 210 has max aperture f5.6, and this makes life more easy ;)

Big Wehman, Toyo 5x7" and a small Chamonix

Ken Lee
11-Mar-2019, 06:42
It's a great lens (I had one for years) but isn't the focal length rather short for 8x10 ? In other words, isn't the angle of view rather wide ? Are you concerned about foreshortening ?

ndwgolf
11-Mar-2019, 06:45
Are you concerned about foreshortening ?

What’s that??

Oslolens
11-Mar-2019, 06:46
What’s that??I had to google, and Wikipedia site about perspective came up

Big Wehman, Toyo 5x7" and a small Chamonix

Ken Lee
11-Mar-2019, 07:04
What’s that??

Here's an example of foreshortening: When shooting at close distance, near portions of the subject appear disproportionately larger than distant portions the subject.

http://www.kennethleegallery.com/images/forum/foreshortening.jpg

To avoid foreshortening we can choose a lens of normal or longer focal length, which will allow us to shoot at a normal or greater distance from the subject. At greater distance, the apparent difference in size between near and far portions of the subject is ameliorated.

On 8x10 a typical normal focal length is 300mm. In rough terms, a 210mm lens on 8x10 is like a 105mm lens on 4x5 or a 35mm lens on 35mm film or "full-frame" digital. Would you do macro work with a wide angle lens ? Only if you wanted that particular sense of perspective: it's your creative choice.

I used my 210mm Macro Sironar on 4x5 and 5x7. You can view some sample images here (http://www.kennethleegallery.com/html/macroSironar/). In all cases, perspective appears normal, not exaggerated because using a longer lens allowed me to fill the frame from a greater distance.

Even for portraits, shooting distance (and subsequent choice of lens to fill the frame) affects perspective: see https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4164807 (https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4164807). At close distance with a wide angle lens, we observe foreshortening: the noses in these portraits appear to be enlarged.

Bob Salomon
11-Mar-2019, 07:30
Guys
I’m thinking of buying a Rodenstock Macro 210mm lens to use with my Chamonix 8x10 to shoot flowers and basically close up macros.............. what do you guys think of this lens??
Neil


I had to google, and Wikipedia site about perspective came up

Big Wehman, Toyo 5x7" and a small Chamonix

Foreshortening is not perspective.
It is the optical effect that items closer to the lens are reproduced larger then items further from the lens. The shorter the Ellen’s the greater the effect, the longer the lens the smaller the effect.

Distortion is controlled by the angle not the focal length.

You could get the 300mm Makro Sironar if foreshortening is a problem (shooting round plates that need to remain round) but you will need much more bellows extension and this is a much heavier lens then the 210.

If you are shooting objects head on then foreshortening is not a problem, neither is shooting irregular shaped things like rocks or flowers. It all depends on what you need to shoot and what result you need.

Oslolens
11-Mar-2019, 07:31
On 8x10 a typical normal focal length is 300mm.

In rough terms, 210mm lens on 8x10 is like a 105mm lens on 4x5 or a 35mm lens on 35mm film or "full-frame" digital.

.

If Pepper No 30 is on 8x10", and 3:1 scale, it would be like a 210mm on 35mm film. You have to try it to see believe it ;) Have not tested, only done the math: 35*2=70mm at 1:1. 3*70=210mm

Big Wehman, Toyo 5x7" and a small Chamonix

Pere Casals
11-Mar-2019, 08:27
At close distance with a wide angle lens, we observe foreshortening: the noses in these portraits appear to be enlarged.

This is also can be named "nose job", or "recent septorhinoplasty", or Taekwondo effect, usual in smartphone headshots, photoshop may solve it a bit. Anyway I'd say that foreshortening (in graphics) is more related to subject's "inclination":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perspective_(graphical)#Foreshortening

"Foreshortening is the visual effect or optical illusion that causes an object or distance to appear shorter than it actually is because it is angled toward the viewer".


Foreshortening is not perspective.

It is... See "Perspective (graphical)" in wiki, section Foreshortening.

_______

IMHO, in photography & paintings, Foreshortening is mostly about an inclinated subject, in the sense explained in the wiki article. (Andrea Mantegna, The Lamentation over the Dead Christ)

And this, of course, it may matter macro work, but not always.

Bob Salomon
11-Mar-2019, 08:53
Guys
I’m thinking of buying a Rodenstock Macro 210mm lens to use with my Chamonix 8x10 to shoot flowers and basically close up macros.............. what do you guys think of this lens??
Neil


This is also can be named "nose job", or "recent septorhinoplasty", or Taekwondo effect, usual in smartphone headshots, photoshop may solve it a bit. Anyway I'd say that foreshortening (in graphics) is more related to subject's "inclination":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perspective_(graphical)#Foreshortening

"Foreshortening is the visual effect or optical illusion that causes an object or distance to appear shorter than it actually is because it is angled toward the viewer".



It is... See "Perspective (graphical)" in wiki, section Foreshortening.

_______

IMHO, in photography & paintings, Foreshortening is mostly about an inclinated subject, in the sense explained in the wiki article. (Andrea Mantegna, The Lamentation over the Dead Christ)

And this, of course, it may matter macro work, but not always.

No, perspective is the angle of the camera to the subject.

Pere Casals
11-Mar-2019, 11:50
No, perspective is the angle of the camera to the subject.

Bob, angle is the half: "The two most characteristic features of perspective are that objects appear smaller as their distance from the observer increases; and that they are subject to foreshortening"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perspective_(graphical)#Types

...yes, foreshortening can be related to the the angle object vs camera, but two equal objects at same angle may be presented with different sizes on paper, simply because one is farther.

In photography we may change the relative sizes of two objects, by adjusting focal/distance, this is also about perspective. No doubt you are aware of that...

Perspective is an ample concept...

Bob Salomon
11-Mar-2019, 11:57
Guys
I’m thinking of buying a Rodenstock Macro 210mm lens to use with my Chamonix 8x10 to shoot flowers and basically close up macros.............. what do you guys think of this lens??
Neil


Bob, angle is the half: "The two most characteristic features of perspective are that objects appear smaller as their distance from the observer increases; and that they are subject to foreshortening"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perspective_(graphical)#Types

...yes, foreshortening can be related to the the angle object vs camera, but two equal objects at same angle may be presented with different sizes on paper, simply because one is farther.

In photography we may change the relative sizes of two objects, by adjusting focal/distance, this is also about perspective. No doubt you are aware of that...

Perspective is an ample concept...

Read some text books on photography. Perspective is controlled by the angle of the camera to the subject. Foreshortening is an optical property and is not perspective. You can increase or decrease foreshortening by changing the lens focal length. But perspective remains the same.

Pere Casals
11-Mar-2019, 12:22
Perspective is controlled by the angle of the camera to the subject. Foreshortening is an optical property and is not perspective. You can increase or decrease foreshortening by changing the lens focal length. But perspective remains the same.

Bob, IMHO there is a disparity in nomenclature.

To me, in graphic arts, perspective is correctly defined in this article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perspective_(graphical). What is it wrong in that article?

My view is that the perspective word is used in many situations, for example if we speak about view cameras we may use "perspective" when related to perspective control from camera movements. A DSLR photographer may use perspective to speak about what you call Foreshortening. And painters call Foreshortening the depictiion of an inclinated object: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamentation_of_Christ_(Mantegna), see foreshortened Christ.

IMHO Perspective (Graphical) is exactly defined in Wikipedia, but how we use the word this is a nomenclature/communication issue.

Ken Lee
11-Mar-2019, 12:25
http://www.kennethleegallery.com/images/forum/faces.jpg

Terminology aside, here's a series from dpreview.com (https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4164807) where the photographer has maintained the same framing but has moved in closer with short lenses and further away with longer lenses.

We can call it whatever we like, but given the same framing, our choice of lens and distance influences the appearance of the image.

Pere Casals
11-Mar-2019, 13:01
Around 3m distance should be good...

Jerry Bodine
11-Mar-2019, 13:31
Bob is correct. Perspective is dependent on the point-of-view (moving the camera left-right or up-down) to alter the relative position of a distant object to a closer object. In other words, it's where you view the subject from. Foreshortening is the size of the background relative to that of the foreground; it's controlled by the choice of focal length (e.g., long lens enlarges the background relative to the foreground & short lens shrinks the size of the background relative to the size of the foreground). Any good book on photography illustrates each of these clearly with photo examples.

Bob Salomon
11-Mar-2019, 13:32
Guys
I’m thinking of buying a Rodenstock Macro 210mm lens to use with my Chamonix 8x10 to shoot flowers and basically close up macros.............. what do you guys think of this lens??
Neil


http://www.kennethleegallery.com/images/forum/faces.jpg

Terminology aside, here's a series from dpreview.com (https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4164807) where the photographer has maintained the same framing but has moved in closer with short lenses and further away with longer lenses.

We can call it whatever we like, but given the same framing, our choice of lens and distance influences the appearance of the image.

After I was discharged from the USAF as a photographer I took a job as as “kidnapper”. For those of you unfamiliar with this term for an area of photography that was common in the 50s and 60s, that is what baby and children photographers that did new born shots in the hospital followed up with 6 month and 1 year old shots as well as the “free” portrait offers from diaper services (remember those)!

I did children from about 6 years old up. We were issued a pair of strobes, a background and, once a month, a brick of 35mm 36 exposure PlusX. Weekly, when we dropped off the film at the company in the South Bronx we were given a list of appointments for the week. We were also given an 11x14 folio with two sample portrait prints. One a rectangular B&W shot and the other a sepia toned shot in an oval mount.
Everything had to be shot with a 50mm lens and posed with the kid’s near arm across his body.

This was a free print offer. We were told to show the customer the rectangular print as an example of what they would receive and, if they wanted to pay the photographer $1.00 before the shooting they would get the “upgraded sepia toned, oval matted print”. The photographer kept the dollar. A proof passer would contact them within 10 days to show and sell them additional prints.

We were told to tell them that the reason that we needed an answer and the dollar before shooting was because the sepia toned print required different film and processing.

Now, the reason for the 50mm and the near arm across the body and the oval mat was because at the distance we had to shoot for a ¾ portrait gave the kid a near arm the size of a NFL lineman!

That was foreshortening in action! Objects closer to the camera are reproduced larger then objects further from the camera.

This was not perspective. It was, and still is, an optical effect.

As Ken’s examples above show, the effect depends on focal length and distance.

Yes you can change the perspective and emphasize or reduce the effect by shooting higher or lower, especially with short lenses. But if you maintain the angle your choice of lens and distance alone changes the foreshortening.

BTW, after one month I quit that racket!