Is this worth anything?

[robbiemcclaran]

I have a brass Wollensak "Extra Rapid Symmetrical" lens for 8 x10. Shutter works, but several of the aperture blades seem to have come disconnected from whatever mechanism operates it. I don't know the first thing about lens repair and while I am reasonably handy with tools, I can see myself royally screwing this thing up trying to fix it. So the questions are:

Does anyone repair these old lenses?
Is it worth the expense of repairing it?

Thanks.

188619

[Greg]

As long as nothing is broken, re-aligning aperture blades isn't really all that hard, it just demands a whole lot of patience. Try Googling instructions for re-aligning aperture blades. In the 1990s (remember Archie, Veronica?) found a text only, at the time, set of steps/directions for re-aligning aperture blades... took me a try or two as I remember to get the hang of it, but in the end was able to re-align the aperture blades in my 12' Wollensack. Well worth the effort. Your Wollensack "Extra Rapid Symmetrical" optic is well worth the time and effort.

[pepeguitarra]

As long as nothing is broken, re-aligning aperture blades isn't really all that hard, it just demands a whole lot of patience. Try Googling instructions for re-aligning aperture blades. In the 1990s (remember Archie, Veronica?) found a text only, at the time, set of steps/directions for re-aligning aperture blades... took me a try or two as I remember to get the hang of it, but in the end was able to re-align the aperture blades in my 12' Wollensack. Well worth the effort. Your Wollensack "Extra Rapid Symmetrical" optic is well worth the time and effort.

I have the same lens with the same problem. I got it to put it on my restored old camera. I am interested in finding out the value. I opened it and tried to adjust, clean, but I could not/ have not patience. I paid about $20 for it, and I hate to pay $100 for the repair.

[Mike in NY]

A lens and its shutter are a "packaged deal." In my opinion, a nice lens in a dysfunctional or unreliable shutter is all but worthless. But a nice lens in a CLA'd (Cleaned, Lubricated, Adjusted) shutter, even a very old one, can be a valuable piece of photographic equipment. I am very handy, and had an expendable shutter whose blades needed to be reset. I knew exactly whom to send it to, but decided, as a free experiment, to try it myself with my precision tools. Suffice it to say, I was not successful. My hands were not steady enough, my eyesight was not focused enough, and I didn't have a manual or shutter diagram for what I was doing. So the sequence of disassembling and reassembling all the parts got out of hand, especially when I turned the shutter over and a tiny screw fell out of - where - I don't know.

So, I wouldn't buy a lens in a vintage or antique shutter without assuming the shutter needs servicing for $100 or more, in order to make the lens useful. Is it worth about $100 to you to CLA the shutter? Only you can answer that. But to help you decide, compare the ~$100 CLA of your shutter to the cost of a modern 8x10 lens in a modern accurate shutter that sells for many times the amount you paid. Of course, modern lenses and shutters have advantages over vintages lenses - and potentially disadvantages, but I would digress into the personality of a lens if I went there. I won't for now.

[robbiemcclaran]

A lens and its shutter are a "packaged deal." In my opinion, a nice lens in a dysfunctional or unreliable shutter is all but worthless. But a nice lens in a CLA'd (Cleaned, Lubricated, Adjusted) shutter, even a very old one, can be a valuable piece of photographic equipment. I am very handy, and had an expendable shutter whose blades needed to be reset. I knew exactly whom to send it to, but decided, as a free experiment, to try it myself with my precision tools. Suffice it to say, I was not successful. My hands were not steady enough, my eyesight was not focused enough, and I didn't have a manual or shutter diagram for what I was doing. So the sequence of disassembling and reassembling all the parts got out of hand, especially when I turned the shutter over and a tiny screw fell out of - where - I don't know.

So, I wouldn't buy a lens in a vintage or antique shutter without assuming the shutter needs servicing for $100 or more, in order to make the lens useful. Is it worth about $100 to you to CLA the shutter? Only you can answer that. But to help you decide, compare the ~$100 CLA of your shutter to the cost of a modern 8x10 lens in a modern accurate shutter that sells for many times the amount you paid. Of course, modern lenses and shutters have advantages over vintages lenses - and potentially disadvantages, but I would digress into the personality of a lens if I went there. I won't for now.

Just to clarify, the shutter works just fine. The aperture blades are the problem as they are not aligned and a couple of them have become detached. And like you sir, I have neither the patience, steady hands, or disassembly manual, so it's unlikely I would attempt the repair myself. So far googling "how to align aperture blades" instructions, as Greg suggested above, has not been a success. I can only imagine tiny screws, springs, ball bearings and various other parts bouncing across the not so pristine floor of my work space.

Also to clarify, the lens was a bonus prize when I purchased my 8 x 10 some 20 years ago. Since then it has been sitting in my cabinet waiting to be put back in action.

So my question, is this lens a desirable enough piece to send out for repair, or even, can it be repaired? Or should I just put on my desk as a combination paper weight / "conversation piece"? It certainly does look cool.

[Mike in NY]

I'm trying to make sure I understand your situation... the shutter blades are the problem, but they are part of the shutter, correct? So a CLA of the shutter would result in proper repositioning of the aperture blades.

[robbiemcclaran]

I'm trying to make sure I understand your situation... the shutter blades are the problem, but they are part of the shutter, correct? So a CLA of the shutter would result in proper repositioning of the aperture blades.

Sorry if I have confused you. Unless I am missing something, aperture blades and shutter blades are separate devices. The shutter blades function properly. The aperture blades are busted. A CLA may well be a good thing to do, but this lens will require a more significant repair to put the aperture back in good order.

188625

[LabRat]

A tell-tale sign something was an issue in the past was the missing f scale... Might have been removed as someone maybe thought without the plate would think there was more "wiggle room" to free the stuck iris, and it seems like it was forced...

One would have to check the iris blades to see what they are made of first to determine if they can be flattened, and see if the pivots are still in place...this is the go/no go point... Some of the era's blades were made of rubber or materials that can stick together, and a no go, as they need to be smooth to operate...

I have some of these shutters (smaller) and not reliable with their consistent speed in general, and didn't respond to overhaul well at all, so not one I would trust in the field, so don't go bonkers on it... The Compur Compound is much better...

Maybe good as a display piece, but you might put a fixed WH stop in it to try it, but it won't be a miracle lens either, but have some fun with it...



Steve K

[pepeguitarra]

Sorry if I have confused you. Unless I am missing something, aperture blades and shutter blades are separate devices. The shutter blades function properly. The aperture blades are busted. A CLA may well be a good thing to do, but this lens will require a more significant repair to put the aperture back in good order.

188625

In my case, the aperture blades are perfect, but the shutter blades are the ones sticking and not opening completely. But, trying to help, I put too much oil and the whole thing needs to be cleaned, dried, lubed and adjusted.

[paulbarden]

Sorry if I have confused you. Unless I am missing something, aperture blades and shutter blades are separate devices. The shutter blades function properly. The aperture blades are busted. A CLA may well be a good thing to do, but this lens will require a more significant repair to put the aperture back in good order.


I can see open holes in the ends of two of the displaced aperture blades. This suggests that there are rivets missing from those locations on the blades*, and the rivet posts are what locates the blades in the mechanism plate. Once the rivet posts break off the blades, it’s pretty much game over, even if the rivets are still inside the shutter somewhere. A repair on that level is not something you’d want to attempt yourself, and even a pro repair service might not be able to help.

*Ive repaired a Compur shutter that had a rivet come off one end of an aperture blade, and it was very tricky indeed (reassembling the blades is not for the faint of heart!). I’m not familiar with the design of your Wollensak shutter, so it’s possible that the blades do not have the pivot posts riveted to the blades, but are fixed to the mechanism plate instead. If that’s the case, it might be easier to reinstall them. However, I see quite a bit of distortion on the blades at the pivot point, which suggests the blades came out of place because somebody forced the aperture lever when it was stuck with oil or otherwise seized up. Distorted aperture blades are a nightmare to reinstall!

[paulbarden]

In my case, the aperture blades are perfect, but the shutter blades are the ones sticking and not opening completely. But, trying to help, I put too much oil and the whole thing needs to be cleaned, dried, lubed and adjusted.

Shutter blades that stick are not suffering from a lack of lubrication, they stick because old lubricants have volatilized and settled on the blades, making them stick together! Shutter (and aperture) blades must be absolutely clean and dry to operate correctly. Adding oil to either is as good as gluing them together.

[robbiemcclaran]

I can see open holes in the ends of two of the displaced aperture blades. This suggests that there are rivets missing from those locations on the blades*, and the rivet posts are what locates the blades in the mechanism plate. Once the rivet posts break off the blades, it’s pretty much game over, even if the rivets are still inside the shutter somewhere. A repair on that level is not something you’d want to attempt yourself, and even a pro repair service might not be able to help.

*Ive repaired a Compur shutter that had a rivet come off one end of an aperture blade, and it was very tricky indeed (reassembling the blades is not for the faint of heart!). I’m not familiar with the design of your Wollensak shutter, so it’s possible that the blades do not have the pivot posts riveted to the blades, but are fixed to the mechanism plate instead. If that’s the case, it might be easier to reinstall them. However, I see quite a bit of distortion on the blades at the pivot point, which suggests the blades came out of place because somebody forced the aperture lever when it was stuck with oil or otherwise seized up. Distorted aperture blades are a nightmare to reinstall!

Thank you. This is exactly the info I was looking for. And unfortunately much as I had suspected. I can find myself at least part way around small internal combustion engines but will leave shutters, watches and the like to professionals. In this case I think I have a lovely brass paper weight.
Cheers.

[robbiemcclaran]

A tell-tale sign something was an issue in the past was the missing f scale... Might have been removed as someone maybe thought without the plate would think there was more "wiggle room" to free the stuck iris, and it seems like it was forced...

One would have to check the iris blades to see what they are made of first to determine if they can be flattened, and see if the pivots are still in place...this is the go/no go point... Some of the era's blades were made of rubber or materials that can stick together, and a no go, as they need to be smooth to operate...

I have some of these shutters (smaller) and not reliable with their consistent speed in general, and didn't respond to overhaul well at all, so not one I would trust in the field, so don't go bonkers on it... The Compur Compound is much better...

Maybe good as a display piece, but you might put a fixed WH stop in it to try it, but it won't be a miracle lens either, but have some fun with it...



Steve K

What's interesting about the missing f/stop scale is someone in the past has etched (scratched) crude markings indicating the stops. Which would indicate it was working at the time.

But as you suggest, I think this is a nice display piece.

I know that some vintage lenses have strong appeal to certain photographers, for their specific characteristics. But I don't get the impression this lens is particularly rare, so not worth the effort or expense of putting it right.
Cheers

[jnantz]

Hello
You could always remove the aperture blades, shoot it wide open ... or
cut a slot in the barrel and use waterhouse stops :)
Great lens ,, no mattter the condition of the iris ..!
John

[robbiemcclaran]

Hello
You could always remove the aperture blades, shoot it wide open ... or
cut a slot in the barrel and use waterhouse stops :)
Great lens ,, no mattter the condition of the iris ..!
John

Funny you should say that, as I was thinking the exact same thing! Could be an interesting experiment, worth playing with. I have to confess though, having never cracked open the case of any kind of shutter, much less one of this vintage, I'm unclear where to start. I did remove the two obvious screws but it seems there is another fastener or two holding the case together. And I didn't want to just jam a screwdriver in there to pry it open, again fearing an explosion of springs and ball bearings. Any tips appreciated.
Cheers!

[jnantz]

:) Great minds think alike !
I don't have a clue how I would remove that, I have a travel clock in a drawer in pieces
to remind me of how sometimes ...
Maybe if you can't find something online you can just bring it to a repairshop and have him or her remove
the iris, probably won't cost much.. and instead of cutting a slot you could put them infront of your lens like a box camera.
I've made simple lenses like that, they work OK if you set the bar low :)

have fun!

[Robbie Bedell]

Robbie, Since that is an old Wollensak shutter the lens will probably fit into a Betax or Gammax shutter. I made that switch with an old Centar lens and it works very well and is a very good lens..The Betax and Gammax can be found in working condition for not a whole lot of money...

[Eric Rose]

For me the question would go like this. If I saw a photo made with the same lens and it had a wonderful signature look would it then be worth spending $100 to repair it.

[Keith Fleming]

I prefer Robbie Bedell's recommendation, but since the iris still works, a Packard shutter would also work. Used ones are rather inexpensive--though you might need to fabricate a box for the lens-shutter combination. If you go that far, it probably would be good to have a universal iris on the front of the box, and the Packard on the rear--for use with multiple old lenses.

On another tack, I have a Wollensak Versar in an equally-bad Regular shutter. The iris no longer makes a perfect circle due to leaves being messed up. But if I remove the front lens cell and open the iris all the way, the rear cell works as a good soft-focus lens--and the softness can be controlled by stopping down the iris slightly. The iris on mine cannot be stopped down very much though.

Keith

[Mark Sawyer]

I paid about $20 for it, and I hate to pay $100 for the repair.

It's worth $20. If you pay $100 more to repair it, it's worth $120. Simple math in LF photography.

[BrianShaw]

It's worth $20. If you pay $100 more to repair it, it's worth $120. Simple math in LF photography.

But when you try to sell it, nobody is likely to pay “what it is worth.” I’m not sure that such simple arithmetic is how to compute “worth”... whatever that really is.

[Dan Fromm]

My first thought was that the lens was nothing special. I was wrong.

I don't know whether it makes sense to use it, but it is at least an interesting curiosity. Four elements in four groups, convertible. See http://www.cameraeccentric.com/html/info/wollensak_10.html for details.

[Paul Ron]

worth? in non working condition... weigh the shutter without the lens. subtract 35% of the weight... then multiply that by $1.65... thats what it is worth as scrap brass!

worth vs value.... in working condition using that lens n shutter... the photos have potential value which in turn can be the worth of the lens generated by its use.

a broken down taxi is worthless sitting in the garage!

as a decoration... its priceless!... but so is garbage.

rebuilding the iris is possible as long as you have all the blades n they are not missing the anchor pins. the end with the slot goes on another pin that moves the blades, hopefully those pins are still intact. also the blades must be flat n undistorted or they will never operate properly even if you do get them back in the correct order.

being you gave up on repairing it, your options are, use it wide open with waterhouse stops, or put the cells in another shutter or make a nice display stand for the mantel.

btw its actual worth is what someone is willing to pay for it... ebay is the real proving ground.

[Whir-Click]

I purchased a Wollensak Regular shutter in very much the same condition, confident that I could re-stack the dislocated aperture blades (aka iris leaves). I couldn’t. Some blades were missing, some were crinkled, some had torn ends which wouldn’t stay on the studs anymore.

I considered the same options helpfully mentioned on this thread (find a parts shutter with a working aperture mechanism, shoot wide open, make Waterhouse stops, or re-shutter into a newer shutter). I was lucky enough to find a good replacement through the forum. If I hadn’t, I would have tried Waterhouse stops with heavy black paper.

Good luck with your lens!

[robbiemcclaran]

So many good thoughts here, thanks to all. Will explore moving the glass bits onto another shutter, or perhaps do a test shooting wide open. In all honesty with my current workload etc, this will remain a side project. But will chime in if I make any progress. Thanks to all for your thoughts and suggestions.
Cheers!

[Mark Sawyer]

My first thought was that the lens was nothing special. I was wrong.

I don't know whether it makes sense to use it, but it is at least an interesting curiosity. Four elements in four groups, convertible. See http://www.cameraeccentric.com/html/info/wollensak_10.html for details.

Seems to be four elements in two groups, a Rapid Rectilinear. The photo of the separated elements is misleading, but the description describes it as "composed of two combinations of imported glass each one consisting of a crown and flint accurately ground and polished and cemented together." (And it's not entirely "symmetrical", as the front has a focal length of 28.5 inches while the rear is 20 inches.)

[BrianShaw]

RR’s can be very respectable lenses to use. I used a B&L RR quite a bit in the past. But I didn’t know they were convertible.

[Dan Fromm]

They are. But I have to wonder which is wrong, the cross-section or the text.

[Mark Sawyer]

They are. But I have to wonder which is wrong, the cross-section or the text.

I'd first look for any sign of cement failure...

[Dan Fromm]

I'd first look for any sign of cement failure...

Easy for you to type and me to read. But I don't have the lens to look at. Do you?

Counting reflections will answer the question if the cement is still good.

[Mark Sawyer]

Easy for you to type and me to read. But I don't have the lens to look at. Do you?

Counting reflections will answer the question if the cement is still good.

Agreed. For the owner, mine is just the easy first test. If there's no obvious separation proving it's cemented, proceed to your second test. I'd recommend the owner unscrew one cell and check that for reflections, so the test is of a simpler configuration. (Personally, I'd remove the glass elements from the mount and see if it's one cemented group or two separate elements, but some people may not be comfortable with that.)