Pre-soak and final wash in Jobo expert drums

[Tim V]

Hi all,

I'm about to order a CPP-3 plus expert drums to process 8x10" and 4x5" film.

Currently, I use PMK but by popular account, I might want to switch to Pyrocat-HD? Or at least consider dividing the development to 2x 1000ml volumes. But I digress...

My main question pertains to the use of expert drums, particularly with regards to how people pre-soak the film before development, then wash the film after fixing.

For the pre-soak, I'm wondering if people simply put the drum on the roller base and pour in the water. Let it rotate inside the drum as with any of the other subsequent chemicals, drain then repeat, before finally moving on to the developing stage?

For the final wash, I'm assuming that people do a cursory wash with a couple of cycles of fresh water, then remove film and put it in a tray or archival washer? Is it possible to properly clean the film inside an expert drum?

Lastly, for pyro developers such as PMK and Pyrocat-HD, do people still recommend using the slowest rotation speed?

Any other tips would be appreciated, I'm just trying to educate myself so when the gear arrives I feel confident I know where to start.

Thanks,

Tim

[Vaughn]

I use Pyrocat HD in Expert drums (3005 and 3006). The 3006 with six 5x7s I do with two batches of Pyrocat.

I am using a motor base -- my pre-rince is usually two batches of water for 5 minutes each. I wash in the drum (3 or 4 five-minute fills), but finish in trays.

[Fred L]

When I used PMK, I would presoak in the drum on the roller base. Same with the wash, x number of fill, roll and dumps.

[cowanw]

I on the other hand soak in the drum standing in the sink for 5 minutes while I get everything ready and rinse after pouring out the fixer to storage bottles with two fills in the standing position. Then open with the drum almost full (much easier) and into the print /film washer. I use a Beseler type roller.

[Mfagan]

I pre-soak on the roller—running same speed as I will use for processing. i start off at a slower speed for a few revs to make sure that the drum and lid are coaxial. Otherwise the lid might loosen and let light in and chemical out (experience the hard way). I rinse using the roller as well to avoid the risk of scratches from handling. I figure the fewer times I handle a neg, the lower probability of scratching. Rinsing for me is three one-minute changes of tap water ((correct temperature), one minute perma wash, three more one-minute tap water, finish with one minute steam distilled water with a few drops of photoflow. Never tested effectiveness of rinse — maybe it’s excessive or insufficient, but it works for me.

[Pere Casals]

pre-soak the film

Most modern films (kodak, ilford, fuji) do not need pre-soak at all, many decades ago it was different. Professional film processors does not pre-soak, including BW, C-41, E-6, not matering if it was rotary or roller transport or any other.

Film stock for hollywood movies has a pre-bath to remove the protective remjet layer that prevents scratches from movie camera harsh film transport.

Modern film includes wetting agents intended to provide an even development that are removed by the pre-soak, so if you anyway pre-soak at least do it a long enough time because, if not, pre-soaking is what it would lead to an uneven development. See ilford datasheet.

Anyway do a side by side test and see. You may have to correct a bit development time depending on how you process.



Lastly, for pyro developers such as PMK and Pyrocat-HD, do people still recommend using the slowest rotation speed?

Yes, if not you will have more stain in the fog+base, I guess this comes from air (oxygen) mixed in the developer because excessive rotary speed.

In general Pyrogallol or Pyrocatechin based developers should not be used with rotary, if doing it then use a low speed to take less air. A silicone based defoamer (2 parts per million) may also help, because it also prevents a bit the formation of small air bubbles inside the liquid.

Some stain developers Rollo-Pyro and 510-Pyro are suitable for rotary, Rollo-Pyro is PMK with ascorbic acid that I'd say it works as an antioxydiant.





Washing


Put twice the water than the developer volume, rotate 3 min, dump. Repeat from 3 to 6 cycles. To me 3 cycles are enough if you dump well all water. Last wash can be done with distilled water + photoflo. I make 3 cycles + another one with minimal amount of distilled+photoFlo.





Any other tips


If you use an alkaline rapid fixer (TF-4 or equivalent) then there is no reason to use an acid stop bath. When acid fixers were used the acid stop bath was to protect acid fixer from alkaline contamination/damage. Use plain water instead.

[Tin Can]

Glad I read this last post.

I don't use Rotary but do use gas burst.

Seems I need to move to N2 gas burst from compressed room air if I want success with Pyro.

One day

[Pere Casals]

Seems I need to move to N2 gas burst from compressed room air if I want success with Pyro.

Randy, you may use a pyro formula that is suitable for rotary: http://www.pyrocat-hd.com/html/mixing.html

Those containing an antioxydant can be rotated or air-bursted. Pyrocat-PC contains: Ascorbic acid 4.0g / 1L.

[Lachlan 717]

Pre-soak - 2 minutes/Empty/3 minutes.

I do this as I believe that there is a significant possibility of uneven development on the (long) 7x17 sheets if dry. The pre-soak is a slight buffer to the ingress of the developer.

Developed on “F” speed for all chemicals.

Photoflo doesn’t go near my tanks for fear of residue. I hang the sheet post wash (washed in tanks with continuous flow tap water) and use an atomising spray to cover the negs with the Photo Flo solution.

[Peter De Smidt]

I've been processing 4x5 and 8x10 with Jobo Expert drums in a cpp-2 for 20 years. For bw film, I never use a pre-soak. Jobo USA did not say that one was needed for any quality reasons. They recommended a 5 minute pre-soak, as their tests showed that this gave development times close to what film manufacturers recommended for inversion development, but the recommendation was only meant to help one figure out the proper development time. I figure out my own development times, and so a pre-soak wastes time and tempered water to no good effect. I do use a pre-soak for processes, such as E6, were the developing temp is significantly higher than ambient. The pre-soak gets the film and drum up to temp, in that case. I wash film in the drum, using frequent changes of water, much like Ilford's recommended method. I see no reason to use a development regime that requires very long and wasteful washing sequences.

[Alan9940]

I pre-soak with water in the drum for 5 mins with drum rotating at development speed. I wouldn’t recommend PMK for rotary; I use Pyrocat-HD and run drum at the slowest speed. At the end, I do a few quick washes with the drum rotating, then transfer film to archival washer for final wash. Never had any issues working this way.

[Tim V]

Thank you everyone for your considered replies.

My take away is this:

1: Switch to Pyrocat-HD or Rollo Pyro as PMK may present some problems. Run the Jobo at the slowest rotating speed.

2: While some people don't presoak, most people recommend a 5 min presoak with the drum rotating at processing speed dumping and refilling the tank at least once during this time.

3: For final wash, may people wash the film in the drum as per Ilford's wash sequence, filling, rotating in the drum then dumping the water over a sequence of many times. People seem to advocate to pour wash aid / permawash into the drum in the middle of this wash cycle, which I'm happy about as it would make the whole process a lot cleaner and easier, with less chance of scratching the film with handling.

4: Like some, I always feel a bit weird about putting wetting agent in a tank. I find it hard to clean, and any residue left can cause bubbles in the following cycle.

Do people think the above is a good summation of a good process to move forward?

Thanks again for all of your help!

T

[Vaughn]

1. With PyrocatHD and six 5x7s in the 3006 Drum, I have to run two developing cycles so not to exhaust the developer. Which is actually quite nice. Less oxidation since each batch of developer is used for only half the time, and temperature is better controlled (unless one has a water bath set-up).
2. Soaking is optional, as noted. Processing temps of 70F can be significantly above room temp for me, so I like getting the tank up to temp with the pre-developer rinse. I also enjoy seeing the different colors of the anti-halation layers, lol!
3/4. No wash aid in my drums...I do that in a tray right before I hang the negs up to dry.

Sounds good to me -- you'll develop your own habits along the way, so to speak...

[Tim V]

Thanks, Vaughn.

Good to know that even with Pyrocat-HD it's best to run two developing cycles, 1000ml each.

I like the idea of preasoaking too, even if it's because I've always done it. Not a well reasoned motivation, but still. Old habits die hard, I guess. I'll have to do some experiments.

I'm wondering about putting washaid in drums, too... I'd worry about getting the drum absolutely clean afterwards and the potential for contamination during the subsequent development cycle. I don't have much room in my darkroom, but investment in a better archival washer seems to be in order if I'm to satisfy my desire to meet the best archival standards.

Thanks again for your help!

T

[Pere Casals]

1: Pyrocat-HD


Instead Pyrocat-HD you may try Pyrocat-PD, for example, that is suitable for rotary because it contains an antioxidant.




2: While some people don't presoak, most people recommend a 5 min presoak with the drum rotating at processing speed dumping and refilling the tank at least once during this time.


Just test it, try with and without. Nothing better than testing things, and this is quite easy to test.

[PRJ]

I used PMK for about a decade then Pyrocat for 15 years. I just recently went back to PMK. I had more consistency with PMK and less issues. I don't think I ever had a problem with PMK now that I'm thinking about it. Pyrocat caused me some headaches. I also think highlights are nicer with PMK. Of course everyone is going to tell you what they use, but I thought you might like someone's opinion that used both for a considerable amount of time before you make the switch.

I use one liter of developer in the 3010. Never had an issue with oxidizing developer, but I use a Beseler print roller thingy, so it doesn't twist as violently as a JOBO does.

Hope that helps you.

[Pere Casals]

Never had an issue with oxidizing developer

what you perhaps got is a higher than possible stain in the Fog+Fase, you may not notice that if you are used to that fog level.

A higher stain in the fog, with variable contrast paper, works a bit like the low contrast filter, this can be compensated by using an slightly higher contrast grade in the printing.

[Vaughn]

Thanks, Vaughn. Good to know that even with Pyrocat-HD it's best to run two developing cycles, 1000ml each....T

The 3006 Drum has a max of 450ml, if I am reading the drum correctly. Sandy King recommends 75ml of working solution per 4x5 for drum development, or 130ml per 5x7 (300ml per 8x10). I bump up the concentration of the developer to speed-up/increase development, so in theory I can use just one development cycle.

[Tim V]

Thanks. I'll be using a 3005 drum for 8x10" film. I'll check the specs, but am assuming 1000ml is enough. Not sure what the tank can hold, but think that's what I've read is max.

[Tim V]

Checked:

Drum #3005
5 pieces of 5x7" to8x10" film or paper
Solution required
o Minimum 270 ml
o Maximum 1500 ml

[Vaughn]

I always thought 1000ml was the max -- well, I know 1500ml will make my Unicolor motor base complain even more! I think 1000ml is the limit of my patience when filling the tank as it spins! Did you find the max for the 3006 by any chance?

[Peter De Smidt]

You can also shoot some nitrogen into the tank before adding the developer. I really don't get why people use unnecessary pre-soaks.

[Sal Santamaura]

I always thought 1000ml was the max -- well, I know 1500ml will make my Unicolor motor base complain even more! I think 1000ml is the limit of my patience when filling the tank as it spins! Did you find the max for the 3006 by any chance?All Expert tanks will accept up to 1500 ml of solution with no problem. The limitation is Jobo processors. ATLs are good with 1500ml. All CPX models/lifts except the CPP3 can handle no more than 1000 ml. The CPP3 and its lift reportedly will do fine with 1500 ml, but more frequent lubrication of the gears is then necessary.

Other manufacturers' roller bases: you're on your own. :)

[Vaughn]

All Expert tanks will accept up to 1500 ml of solution with no problem. The limitation is Jobo processors. ATLs are good with 1500ml. All CPX models/lifts except the CPP3 can handle no more than 1000 ml. The CPP3 and its lift reportedly will do fine with 1500 ml, but more frequent lubrication of the gears is then necessary.

Other manufacturers' roller bases: you're on your own. :)

I'll have to check that out on the 3006. It is half the size of the 3005 -- 1.5 liters would probably flow out of the end, but I'll check.

PS -- Just checked...1.5 liters is the point where the fluid starts spilling out when the 3006 drum is laid flat. Way too much.

[Tim V]

From Jobo website:

Drum #3006
6 pieces of 4x5" to 5x7" film or paper
Solution required
o Minimum 210 ml
o Maximum 1000 ml



I always thought 1000ml was the max -- well, I know 1500ml will make my Unicolor motor base complain even more! I think 1000ml is the limit of my patience when filling the tank as it spins! Did you find the max for the 3006 by any chance?

[Vaughn]

Thanks -- might start filling it a bit more...been keeping it to 450ml.

[Tim V]

If using Pyrocat-HD, would filling a 3005 tank with 1200-1500ml still necessitate splitting the development into two baths? I’m assuming the more solution the less the ill effects of oxidisation?

[Peter De Smidt]

Using that much solution would put a lot of stress on the whole system.

[Larry Gebhardt]

Thanks -- might start filling it a bit more...been keeping it to 450ml.
Jobo recommends 1000ml for the 3006. http://www.jobo-usa.com/images/manuals/Expert_drums.pdf

[Sal Santamaura]

...Just checked...1.5 liters is the point where the fluid starts spilling out when the 3006 drum is laid flat. Way too much.

Oops; I forgot the 3006 was so much shorter than the 3004 and 3005. I have regularly used 1000 ml of 1+3 diluted Perceptol in the 3006 for a reduced load of four 4x5s, however, and it stays inside perfectly.

[Duolab123]

I've got a 3010, 3006, and a 3005. For 4x5 I still use my 2509n reels. I use my trusty IR goggles. There's no way I could get those darn panels on without the goggles.

The best part about the reels is ease of washing. I have accumulated a Calumet? syphon film washer. Washing in the tank with a hose down the center column works too.

When I use the Expert drums, I wash with tempered water on the machine. Usually 6 or 7, 1 minute washes. I try not to over think it.

I don't shoot a lot of sheet film so I'm no authority :o

[Vaughn]

If using Pyrocat-HD, would filling a 3005 tank with 1200-1500ml still necessitate splitting the development into two baths? I’m assuming the more solution the less the ill effects of oxidisation?
Sandy King recommends 300ml per 8x10 for normal working strength PyrocatHD, so in theory, 1500ml would do 5 sheet of 8x10 in the 3005.

[Peter De Smidt]

Or two developer additions of 750ml.

[andreios]

Just to make clear, you make two batches normal dilution developer and run each the f them for half the suggested time? I always thought that various times for various films have the diminishing strength of developer sort of "built in" the calculation / tested time...

[Peter De Smidt]

One should always determine development times through testing.

[Vaughn]

One should always determine development times through testing.
+1, and then be consistent.

Personally, and by nature, I do not test and am not consistent -- and I did not worry about adjusting time for using two developer runs since I was taking an experienced guess on the total time anyway. But I take notes and sometimes can find them before diving back into the dark. Generally I have learned how to learn from the failures, repeat the successes, and even sometimes tell the difference between them.

Using two developer runs changes a lot of factors.

[Tim V]

I wondered if 1500ml in the large tank would be too heavy, but that’s the max volume listed in Jobo’s Spec sheet. It may be that this is fine if using a manual base but not recommended for use on the machine, I.e. it exceeds safe load range.

The other options for pyro in rotary are of course Pycrocat-MC and ABC+\Rollo Pyro. Do people have any preference here? From reading, both have been formulated with the Jobo in mind.

Lastly, my understanding of dividing the development bath into two volumes in this instance is as Vaughn has outlined, being making two equal strength and volume developer mixes and changing the first batch in the middle of the dev time, then finishing at the normal time. I know some people do weaker strength in second lot for specific purposes, but in this instance that’s not what I’d be doing as it’s just to counteract effects of oxidisation.

Am I in the ballpark?

[Peter De Smidt]

If you try that much solution, don’t use the lift lever to raise the drum!

[Tim V]

1000ml is safe though in a 3005 drum, right? Or still on the limit of too heavy?

[Peter De Smidt]

I’ ve used that much w/o problems, but I never use the lift arm with Expert drums. Grab the lift structure in the waterbath, the part farthest from the lift handle, to raise and lower the drum. Time it so the gears engage smoothly.

[Tim V]

Thanks for the tip!

Now, to decide between Rollo Pyro / ABC Plus and Pyrocat-HD or MC...

I would preferably like to develop with one bath and not have to worry about dumping and replacing at the halfway point, but if it’s recommended to use 300ml per 8x10” sheet, then it might be unavoidable.

[angusparker]

1000ml is safe though in a 3005 drum, right? Or still on the limit of too heavy?

Works fine.

[angusparker]

Thanks for the tip!

Now, to decide between Rollo Pyro / ABC Plus and Pyrocat-HD or MC...

I would preferably like to develop with one bath and not have to worry about dumping and replacing at the halfway point, but if it’s recommended to use 300ml per 8x10” sheet, then it might be unavoidable.

Pyrocat-HD in A and B with glycerol


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[Tim V]

Thanks. Are you saying HD with a 1:1:100 mix? Do you split development into two baths? My question relates to Sandy’s recommendation to use 300ml per 8x10” sheet, which would me filling the 3005 drum to its 1500ml capacity which seems beyond the limit of the Jobo motor and lift. It’s essentially the same volume recommendation for MC. I’m not sure what is recommended for ABC+/ Rollo, but assume it’s the same.






Pyrocat-HD in A and B with glycerol


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