PDA

View Full Version : Kodak 10 Inch f/6.3 Commercial Ektar with Acme No. 4 shutter



ManWithManyHobbies
6-Mar-2019, 17:42
Looking for those only with 'direct hands on experience' with this 'exact' lens please. I would like to know what 4x5 camera this lens will fit on and function as it should, no guessing please. I know it won't fit on my Wista 45N. <g> The lens fits on a Wista lens board fine but once I try and mount it, some of the lens actuators (no matter how I orientate the lens on the Wista board ... rotation wise) interfere with Wista U-brace. There also doesn't seem to be enough room between the front of Wista lens board and the back of the lens (meaning the gap between the two) so that the lens board fits under the two 'clips'.

1. Is there a solution?

2. What 4x5 will this lens work on as it should?

Thanks in advance,
-JW:

LabRat
7-Mar-2019, 02:05
I use mine with a GVII, and works great, as well as other Acme #4 mounted lenses and other large shutters... Large FS cameras, such as monorails should be ok...

You might be able to extend the front of the Wista board with a step extension just beyond where it clears the supports and maybe allows some front tilt...

Good luck!!!

Steve K

Andrew Plume
7-Mar-2019, 04:39
Hi JW

Shouldn't be any problem mounting this on to a standard Sinar board i.e. 140mmsq and there are plenty of 4 x 5 Sinar's around on the used market

regards

Andrew

mdarnton
7-Mar-2019, 06:12
This lens definitely works on Cambo. If the Wista uses thin metal boards there should be room to shim the lens away from the board with a custom-made washer or two, which may help with the board lock clearance (I did this for my Pacemaker Graphic board with a No 4 Shutter like your lens is most likely mounted in.) but that won't help lever-clearance problems, probably.

Dan Fromm
7-Mar-2019, 07:26
mwmh, it seems that Wista makes a top hat lens board. Getting one might save you the cost of another camera. One might solve your problem. I b'lieve there's a recent post about a 3-D printed one, but a quick search (Google Advanced Search in largeformatphotography.info) didn't find it.

Larry Gebhardt
7-Mar-2019, 08:06
I have the same shutter, but with a 12" Commercial Ektar, mounted on a Shen Hao Linhof style board. I did the machining (hole saw) myself and screwed the flange to the board. This combination works with a Chamonix 45N and a Canham MQC57 with the Linhof adapter.

How big is the gap in your mount? You should be able to add a spacer to gain a bit of clearance. I bet a good photographic machinist like S K Grimes could help you out.

ManWithManyHobbies
7-Mar-2019, 08:12
mwmh, it seems that Wista makes a top hat lens board and save the cost of another camera. One might solve your problem. I b'lieve there's a recent post about a 3-D printed one, but a quick search (Google Advanced Search in largeformatphotography.info) didn't find it.

I'm new to LF but not film (Pentax 67 end-user) so some of the terminology and configurations are a stumbling block for me. I found these two items. I'm not sure if either would work with my Kodak 10"f/6.3 Commercial Ektar in Acme No. 4 shutter.

https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipM3f6v-T_BJ9wNDWUOf_Q-dJUdpO0OMGu1qCk-xGpg9cbPLWYm8kcMPcRo4Fze-lQ?key=a2FJaGpDcE5LOGs3a3AxNkNXWWFVaC1RMVlRTmVR

https://www.ebay.com/itm/20mm-55mm-75mm-Extension-Lens-Board-For-Linhof-Technika-Wista-ShenHao-Chamonix/181047886359?hash=item2a274b8217:g:uxcAAOSwRNtb4Ux3&frcectupt=true

-JW:

PS: This is probably the thread you're speaking of?

https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?148185-3-D-printed-lens-boards

Dan Fromm
7-Mar-2019, 08:47
Exactly. Thanks for finding the thread, it is the one I remembered but couldn't find. Note, Cambo boards won't fit your camera.

As I understand your problem, the front standards' uprights (you called them a u-brace, is that Wista-speak?) interfere with the shutter's controls. A top-hat board will hold the shutter clear of the uprights.

Larry Gebhardt
7-Mar-2019, 08:53
How do you have the lens mounted in the board? If you are using the mounting flange behind the board as a locking ring it will place the shutter very close to the board and given the size I can see it interfering with the camera.

Bernice Loui
7-Mar-2019, 09:16
Lenses in Ilex-Acme# 4 shutter is inherently too big for field cameras with small lens boards. This results in trade-offs when the lens mount is modified to fit field cameras with small lens boards. The extender cylinder lens boards will solve the problem of mounting the Ilex-Acme# 4 shutter on to the Wista 45N lens board, trade off being a front heavy camera which affects camera stability, impaired front tilt dependent on how far the shutter body is extended away from the U support and what once was a small light weight field camera is not longer small or light weight with this lens applied to this camera system.

Beyond getting the 10" C-Ektar mounted to the Wista 45N, does the entire set up have enough bellows for using this lens at infinity and shorter focus distances?

There are better 10" - 250mm/240mm lens choices for the Wista 45N. It appears lenses in a Copal, Compur, Prontor, Seiko, or similar# 1 shutter would be a better choice for the Wista 45N.


On a Sinar or similar flat front camera, a number four shutter is a non-issue, except these are not going to be small-lightweight and hike with back packable like this Wista 45N and similar.


Bernice

ManWithManyHobbies
7-Mar-2019, 13:10
Here are a few images of the overall situation. As you can see it easily fits on the Wista lens board but not to well on the camera itself. I'm not sure IF a extension board will solve the problem since I've never even seen one but I understand the concept. I'm more than willing to give it a try. Plus I would have no idea if it would have an effect on the movement of the tilt compared to not having an extension. Personally I don't see camera stability being an issue but then again I'm a noob to 4x5. My Fujinon SWD 90mm should be heavier than the Ektar plus it's even longer. According to the Wista 45N specification sheet it has a maximum extension of 300mm (which I have not verified). For whatever it's worth, I didn't plan on doing any 4x5 backpacking and would always be somewhat close to my truck or jeep. I purchased this lens because I like the looks of the images taken with it, plus it was in very nice condition for its age. Who knows maybe I won't like it once used, ya never know. Just a personal thing ya know.

PS: I should note that the lens board 'will not' go under the two lens board clips. it's close but something is preventing that from happening. It could be the actuators/levers on the circumference of the lens hitting the U-channel frame, or maybe there isn't enough space/clearance/gap between the lens board and the back of the camera lens, dunno.

188522

188523

188524

188525

ManWithManyHobbies
7-Mar-2019, 13:10
... and a couple more pics.

188526

188527

Cheers,
-JW:

Dan Fromm
7-Mar-2019, 13:20
As I said, a top hat board will put the shutter in front of the standard.

Jim Noel
7-Mar-2019, 13:25
I use mine on the 5x7 Deardorff and the 4x5 Toko with no difficulties.

ManWithManyHobbies
7-Mar-2019, 13:29
Hi JW

Shouldn't be any problem mounting this on to a standard Sinar board i.e. 140mmsq and there are plenty of 4 x 5 Sinar's around on the used market

regards

Andrew

Thanks Andrew. Being a noob to LF, I did ask IF this lens would fit on a Wista lens board and naturally it does. What I didn't ask is IF the lens once attached to a Wista lens board would work on the Wista 45N.

ManWithManyHobbies
7-Mar-2019, 13:33
As I said, a top hat board will put the shutter in front of the standard.

Since I'm a noob I need to ask. Are you saying this exact top hat would work IF I can find one instead of the extension one I posted earlier that's on eBay?

https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipM3f6v-T_BJ9wNDWUOf_Q-dJUdpO0OMGu1qCk-xGpg9cbPLWYm8kcMPcRo4Fze-lQ?key=a2FJaGpDcE5LOGs3a3AxNkNXWWFVaC1RMVlRTmVR

Chauncey Walden
7-Mar-2019, 13:50
If you take the flange off the board and mount it on the lens reversed and then hold the lens to the board how many clearance problems does that help? That flange was designed to be on the front of the board which will increase the clearance by the minor thickness of the board and if the lens has enough threads to mount it backwards on the lens then you gain the entire thickness of the flange. Then when mounting the flange in whichever direction works best to the front of the board it would be a simple matter to add gaskets and use longer nuts and bolts to get what ever clearance you need.

Andrew Plume
7-Mar-2019, 13:59
Thx Jw

good luck with this

regards

Andrew

Dan Fromm
7-Mar-2019, 14:08
Since I'm a noob I need to ask. Are you saying this exact top hat would work IF I can find one instead of the extension one I posted earlier that's on eBay?

https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipM3f6v-T_BJ9wNDWUOf_Q-dJUdpO0OMGu1qCk-xGpg9cbPLWYm8kcMPcRo4Fze-lQ?key=a2FJaGpDcE5LOGs3a3AxNkNXWWFVaC1RMVlRTmVR

I don't know because I don't know how deep your 45N's front standard is and how high the top hat is. Remove the lens from the board, put the board on the camera and hold the lens far enough in front of the board that the levers clear the standard and measure the distance from the back of the shutter to the front of the board. You'll need a top hat that gives at least that much extension.

I don't know because I don't know how high the top hat you're thinking of is. Ask the vendor for the distance between the tube's face and the front of the board. If this is at least as much as needed (see previous paragraph), it will do. If not, not.

Michael Graves
7-Mar-2019, 14:13
I owned this combination for several years until I acquire a 10 3/4" Gold Rim Dagor. The lens worked well on my Chamonix 45N1 and didn't even make my Horseman L45 breathe hard. My sample covered 5x7 with a little wiggle room for movements, but didn't come close to covering 8x10. The one thing I have done with all Ilex #4 shutters and Linhof-style boards is to front mount the flange and screw the lens in from the front. I don't know if that was the correct way or not...but it works for me.

Larry Gebhardt
7-Mar-2019, 15:15
Unscrew the flange from the back of the lens. Screw this to the lens and position it to the front of the lensboard. Just hold it for now. See if that solves your clearance issues. If so get some machine screws and screw the flange to the front of the lensboard. You can add a spacer between the two if needed. The way you have it is half on the rim and isn't right. It won't fit in some cameras. So get the whole thing centering in the raised lip on the back of the board.

Larry Gebhardt
7-Mar-2019, 15:21
Here's some pictures of my hack job.

188530188531188532

ManWithManyHobbies
7-Mar-2019, 17:24
Unscrew the flange from the back of the lens. Screw this to the lens and position it to the front of the lensboard. Just hold it for now. See if that solves your clearance issues. If so get some machine screws and screw the flange to the front of the lensboard. You can add a spacer between the two if needed. The way you have it is half on the rim and isn't right. It won't fit in some cameras. So get the whole thing centering in the raised lip on the back of the board.

Sounds like a plan Larry. I'll make a short video and post a link here.

-JW:

ManWithManyHobbies
7-Mar-2019, 19:36
Here's a quick cell phone video of the overall situation and proposed solution. I suppose the spacer could even be an o-ring if I can find one the approximate diameter and thickness. Heck even multiple o-rings if necessary.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVNyRrJR2E4&feature=youtu.be

Cheers,
-JW:

fuegocito
7-Mar-2019, 20:07
One solution would be make a wooden spacer that is the thickness of the sunk-in space and mount it to the lens board(via screws going through the board from the back), then screw the flange to the wood and you'll be all good.

Mark Sampson
7-Mar-2019, 20:23
Reminiscent of my (unsuccessful) attempts to put a 12"/6.3 Ektar on a 4x5 Tachihara back in the 1980s. In those days there was no forum to help a newbie out- and in fact the lens was just too heavy for the camera. Several years later I solved my long-lens issue by purchasing a used 300/9 Nikkor-M. But it looks like this one can be made to work. The Commercial Ektars are fine lenses and worth the effort- best of luck!

Larry Gebhardt
8-Mar-2019, 05:36
JW, watched your video. I think it will work. However I'd put the spacer, if needed, behind the flange so you have more contact with the lens threads. I'd also get the lens oriented how you want it and let that decide the position of the screws - don't worry about aesthetics as the screws will be hidden.

cowanw
8-Mar-2019, 06:33
For aesthetics, I would screw a circular spacer on the back of your present board and screw a second board on the back of that spacer. This sort of thing is common when going from different board to board; different either by mount or size.

Chauncey Walden
8-Mar-2019, 13:30
JW, exactly what I said back in #17, including putting a gasket between the board and the flange. The flange won't go anywhere but you don't want your lens slipping off a couple of threads.

ManWithManyHobbies
8-Mar-2019, 17:26
JW, exactly what I said back in #17, including putting a gasket between the board and the flange. The flange won't go anywhere but you don't want your lens slipping off a couple of threads.

I know and appreciate the suggestion. I'm still thinking.

ManWithManyHobbies
8-Mar-2019, 22:16
Ok, here's what I've come up with so far.

188563

188564

-JW:

Larry Gebhardt
9-Mar-2019, 03:35
I don't think there will be room for screw heads on the back of the board. Some/most cameras use the raised ring on the back of the technika board for a light trap and have parts that will interfere. I had to tap the holes and then cut the screws flush on the back. Make the spacer as thin as you need it to keep the mass close the the camera. You might not need any spacer if you can orient the lens correctly.

ManWithManyHobbies
9-Mar-2019, 08:33
I don't think there will be room for screw heads on the back of the board. Some/most cameras use the raised ring on the back of the technika board for a light trap and have parts that will interfere. I had to tap the holes and then cut the screws flush on the back. Make the spacer as thin as you need it to keep the mass close the the camera. You might not need any spacer if you can orient the lens correctly.

You are exactly right Larry. I forgot to model the back of the lens board. <duh> BTW I did make the thickness of the adapter as short as possible.

Thanks ...

188586

ManWithManyHobbies
9-Mar-2019, 09:31
Since I can register the spacer in the bore, I suppose I could JB Weld the adapter to the lens board instead of screwing it. I also could put an o-ring over the thread on the back of the lens to allow some lens rotation when I screw on the spacer and still have a nice tight fit.

188587

Larry Gebhardt
9-Mar-2019, 09:44
Since I can register the spacer in the bore, I suppose I could JB Weld the adapter to the lens board instead of screwing it. I also could put an o-ring over the thread on the back of the lens to allow some lens rotation when I screw on the spacer and still have a nice tight fit.

188587

Something seems off. My shutter is the same size and fills the whole inner area of the ring/light trap - see the photos I posted earlier.

ManWithManyHobbies
9-Mar-2019, 09:57
I've also been meaning to ask why the bore eccentrically centered in the ring on this Wista board?

188590

cowanw
9-Mar-2019, 10:27
That is for use on a Linhof Technica wherein the off centre board centres the lens. You can still use it but clearly you are already using a bit of "Fall". Frankly a centred board would be much simpler to do your modifications.

Larry Gebhardt
9-Mar-2019, 10:30
I've heard it was to allow a bit of fall for cameras that don't have any. With it offset you would raise the front standard to put the lens in the center.

ManWithManyHobbies
9-Mar-2019, 15:02
Thanks, I simply didn't understand. They're actually pretty close.

188613

-JW:

Larry Gebhardt
9-Mar-2019, 15:29
I'd look at the back and center on the light trap.

ManWithManyHobbies
9-Mar-2019, 18:06
I'd look at the back and center on the light trap.

Sorry Larry, I'm a noob to LF, i don't understand the terminology.

-JW:

Larry Gebhardt
9-Mar-2019, 18:18
Sorry Larry, I'm a noob to LF, i don't understand the terminology.

-JW:

JW, if you look at the back of your lens board it has a raised ring. I believe that's a light trap to keep stray light from sneaking past the lens board. Some cameras have an opening only as large as the diameter of this ring. So you don't want anything sticking out of the back of the board outside this ring or it will interfere with mounting the board on the camera. The back side of the flange is very close to the size of the ring, so you'll want it centered in the ring in order for it to work.

ManWithManyHobbies
9-Mar-2019, 20:02
JW, if you look at the back of your lens board it has a raised ring. I believe that's a light trap to keep stray light from sneaking past the lens board. Some cameras have an opening only as large as the diameter of this ring. So you don't want anything sticking out of the back of the board outside this ring or it will interfere with mounting the board on the camera. The back side of the flange is very close to the size of the ring, so you'll want it centered in the ring in order for it to work.

There's a lip on the backside of the spacer. The purpose of it being to center the spacers in the bore of the lens board. It doesn't protrude past the backside of the lens board and is flush with the backside. I won't use any machine screws and JB Weld it to the lens board. Then I won't have to contend with any machine screw head interference issues.

-JW:

Ken Lee
9-Mar-2019, 22:00
You're a knowledgable and resourceful craftsman, but if this runs into a dead end or down a bottomless pit you should feel free to contact S.K. Grimes (http://www.skgrimes.com).

This would be trivial for them and they could make something perfect for your requirements: the finished product would look like that lens and shutter was deigned just for your camera.

Grimes made 2 adapters for me so I could shoot a 1950's Artar lens on both my 1920's 5x7 Kodak 2D and also on any camera with a Technika board. See http://www.kennethleegallery.com/html/lenses/index.php#Alphax (http://www.kennethleegallery.com/html/lenses/index.php#Alphax)

If you don't care to wait on the end of their work queue, you can pay a bit more and have them rush the project.

ManWithManyHobbies
9-Mar-2019, 22:36
Thanks for the suggestion Ken, it's appreciated. I have the ability to make this from 'machining an object' perspective. I just don't have a complete understanding of LF camera components. BTW, S.K. Grimes just happens to be engraving a aperture cover for a Schneider-Kreuznach Xenar 150mm I snagged at Goodwill. I'm sure I'll be going through a similar scenario mounting that too. Who knows, I may end up buying a 4x5 monorail type camera down the road which will handle these with no issues.

Thanks for your time,
-JW:

Chauncey Walden
11-Mar-2019, 10:06
I've found the ring on the back of the Linhof/Wista boards to be more of a nuisance than anything else. All of the boards I have made for my Linhof are flat on the back. I have never had a light leak problem. If the board is a good fit in the camera there will be no problem. That said anything on the back side of the board, like screw heads, nuts, etc,. gets flat black paint to avoid reflections coming from the light on the film, or stray light from the lens on the bellows.