Of Rotaries, XTOL Replenished, and Foam

[m00dawg]

Figured this might be a good place to ask since I'd imagine some fellow LF folks might be using XTOL replenished since dev'ing sheets can require a lot of chemicals. In fact that's the very reason I started down the path of using XTOL-R. The problem I'm having is I'm getting foam which I haven't quite figured out how to mitigate/remove so I can pour most of the solution back into my replenishment bottle. It wasn't as much of an issue when using an accordion bottle but is a problem with glass.

I went with a glass bottle since it has a narrow neck to make pouring easier and also I don't have to fiddle as much with the accordion. Instead my plan was to just put in my 75ml of stock then top it off with the used developer all the way up to the top to avoid an air gap. Trouble is, because of that foam, I'm left with foam at the top. It settles down after about 24 hours but then to fully remove the air gap I have to go back and add a tiny bit more developer.

I tried using my funnels that have a screen on the bottom, but the bubbles seem to either go right through or get created by pouring the dev in. I thought about maybe using a coffee filter but wasn't sure if that was pulling out any chemicals I want in the solution?

I suspect this would be less of a problem with hand inversions over rotary processing which I'm now doing. I know I can hand process with a 2500 but my rotary setup along with XTOL-R has been pretty consistent and it also lets me be a little lazy :P

Long story short, anyone have suggestions on how to tame XTOL foam?

[koraks]

If you poor developer in until the bottle is full, the foam siply overflows, no? That's what I do with RA4 developer which I replenish and which also foams like crazy.

[m00dawg]

If you poor developer in until the bottle is full, the foam siply overflows, no? That's what I do with RA4 developer which I replenish and which also foams like crazy.

I thought about that, but then the foam gets everywhere haha and I have to worry about cleaning it up. Hmm I suppose I could put the glass jar in the sink if it'll sit flat then wipe it down. I was thinking of maybe trying to skim the foam off the developer in the beaker somehow before I pour it back in.

[pau3]

Are you getting foam with all your films or only for some specific brands? In any case, a thorough pre-rinse may help to get rid
of any wetting agents the films may have incorporated in their emulsions. Try to perform it in two steps: pre-rinse, dump the water, pre-rinse again.

[m00dawg]

Hmm that's a good point.

All my films, in varying degrees cause it. It seems to be worse with sheet films than roll films. I'm guessing the end wings on the 2500 spool contribute to more agitation there perhaps. I feel like my XTOL is foaming more than it did though I haven't changed anything. Thinking it has to do with it starting to become seasoned.

I used to be huge into pre-rinsing but I recall reading, I think in Ilford docs, NOT to pre-rinse when using a rotary though it didn't say why. In hand tanks I always pre-rinsed. Seems like that's better for the developer as well since it doesn't pick up those wetting agents or anti-halation layers.

EDIT: After reading through this (https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?46017-no-pre-soak-for-Ilford-films) post about pre-soaking I think I might go ahead and give it a go. I haven't had any unevenness by not pre-soaking for any films _except_ a few sheets from the new CHS ii which had uneven development. They had a line where the developer was sitting in the tank while I was pouring it in before I put it on the rotary (wasn't but a few seconds). Pouring the dev out of the tank after CHS ii has a bright yellow color, almost the color of Ilford stop bath. I assume that is the anti-halation layer but maybe pre-soaking may help with it.

Worth a shot anyway if it will help with the foam.

[koraks]

Do you use wetting agent in your tank? Do you thoroughly rinse the tank after use? Maybe it's just carryover from the previously processed roll.

And yes, I pour back the developer over the sink so the foam can easily be washed away. Rinse the outside of the bottle after capping it and dry it with a towel.

[Pere Casals]

Long story short, anyone have suggestions on how to tame XTOL foam?

I'd use a LIQUID FOOD GRADE DEFOAMER

188447

This is silicone based so mostly inert, it is used at very, very low concentrations (2 ppm, parts per million, 0.002ml per 1L, buy the smallest possible bottle) with impressive effects. Check that it has no interference with development, buy I guess it won't, at all. Disolve 1ml in 1L for the intermediate dilution, then add 2ml of the dilution per 1L of developer.

These additives are used in many situations, from burger fries (to remove oil foam) to Spa resorts.

I use that proffesionally.

Silicone is dimethylpolysiloxane, it looks McDonald's uses it in some countries

https://yourquestions.mcdonalds.ca/answer/why-do-you-use-dimethylpolysiloxane-in-your-fries-its-also-an-ingredient-in-silicon-caulk-and-hair-conditioner-/
https://web.archive.org/web/20190305092826/https://yourquestions.mcdonalds.ca/answer/why-do-you-use-dimethylpolysiloxane-in-your-fries-its-also-an-ingredient-in-silicon-caulk-and-hair-conditioner-/

____________________


Anyway as you use a rotary I'd use regular Xtol one shot, you won't have much waste.

Rotary mixes a lot of air in the chem, this is not good to keep the used developer, anyway using a defoamer may be good to avoid problems.

[m00dawg]

Thanks Koraks, Pere!

Nope I don't use a wetting agent in the JOBO 2500 itself. Instead I use a Patterson tank for that. For sheets I take them off the 2500 spool one at a time and give them a dunk and let them sit for a few seconds, then put them on my drying rack. For roll film I make a U shape and sort of seesaw the film in the Pattrson tank a few times. Slightly more work than just using a wetting agent directly but since the JOBO tank and reels cost so much more than Patterson tanks, I decided it was worth following their advice just in case. On the plus I tend to reuse Photo-Flo a few times this way which saves on distilled water (it's not expensive here or anything but it means I can buy less and have to lug around less).

Good call on the anti-bubble stuff, Pere, I'll look into that! Yep I could just go back to 1:1 now that I'm solidly able to use a rotary but I've already gone down this XTOL-R path so far it's hard to turn around :P XTOL 1:1, or another devleoper, would help for when it tends to get warm here as I dev up around 24C in the summer and that makes some films (notably CHS ii) dev fast using XTOL stock or replenishment. Even in the winter I tend to be around 22-23C if I don't use an ice bath (and I've tried to avoid that so I can keep my wash water, which comes from the tap, close to the dev temps).

Foam aside, I feel like I've got my times down pretty well with my replenished solution and it does produce nice grain and seems to have a nice buffer in terms of XTOL falling off since it's a bit stronger and I can use more developer than the bare minimum in a tank for more safety margin. I can also combat the oxidation by way of the rotary by adding more stock back in. Kodak says 70ml and I've read some folks using 80, but so far 75 has worked for me. I do need to get test strips though (I "test" using FP4 bulk rolled film). I've done about 30 equivalent rolls of film with it so I think it's getting close to be fully seasoned but not quite there yet.

I dunno if I'm seeing the supposed amazing results using replenishment over 1:1 (folks on a certain other forum waxed poetic about grain) but it's been a fun experiment and does give nice results. I pushed HP5 to 1600 in 35mm and the results were pretty great. All told XTOL-R has some pros and cons for sure.

[Mark Crabtree]

I like replenished Xtol and have used it for a number of years along with a couple other replenished developers. Be aware that you may need to increase your developing times as you continue to use the developer; that is normal, and will eventually stabilize. I particularly like this developer for Fuji x-ray film where times tend to be too short, and contrast too high, in other developers.

All of the replenished developers I use have the foaming, which I believe comes from wetting agents incorporated into many films to help with even development. That is one reason some manufacturers don't recommend pre-washing before development, but also just one more reason I do like to pre-wash; it keeps at least some of that from accumulating in the replenished developer. I just let the foam run over the top, then rinse the bottle. I top it up in a sink, but standing the bottle you are filling in a tray would work fine also.

[m00dawg]

Oooh a tray is a good idea. I think my bottle is slightly too large to do that easily in my current setup but I think that's a good call. Maybe I can do a bit of rearranging.

Yeah to pre or not to pre, that is one question. Never thought about it until foam but then I noticed some uneven development with some of my CHS ii sheets (so maybe they have no wetting agents?) I haven't been pre-washing since moving to rotary but I'm definitely pondering it now if it helps the foam issue though looks like I'll want to be a little faster with pouring the dev in and getting the tank on the rotary at least when using sheets.

Times wise, indeed I'm hoping and expect they will go up a bit. I've started with XTOL stock times but using a rotary which seems to have balanced things out so far - I get the density I'm looking for with most films. Pancro 400 has been elusive to figure out but CHS ii only took a few go arounds (6:30 at 23C looks to be just about perfect). I've been tracking all this via a web app I wrote. That way I can look at the data using various tools if I need to (graphing dev times over a particular film, for instance, or how much solution I've replenished over what I started with, stuff like that) so if I need to increase times I can make an informed decision hopefully.

Do you use test strips? If so where does one find these?

[John Foxe Sheets]

I'd use a LIQUID FOOD GRADE DEFOAMER

188447

This is silicone based so mostly inert, it is used at very, very low concentrations (2 ppm, parts per million, 0.002ml per 1L, buy the smallest possible bottle) with impressive effects. Check that it has no interference with development, buy I guess it won't, at all. Disolve 1ml in 1L for the intermediate dilution, then add 2ml of the dilution per 1L of developer.



Hi Pere, This is great information. I purchased a commercial pool & hot tub defoamer (not the same brand you're using - I can't find that brand locally and Amazon won't ship it fast enough) and added 2 PPM to my MaxPyro developer. It seems to have improved the situation, but I still see uneven development in the form of bubbles on some of my batch of negatives. I'm processing Ilford Delta 100 5x7 film in a 3006 Expert Drum at ~36 RPM on my CPP-2, and I'm doing a 5:00 presoak and then a ~1:00 rinse prior to the development. (The rinse is to try to remove any foam that might be left-over from the presoak's removal of the Ilford wetting agent that is on the film.) Do you use the defoamer only with the developer? Or do you also use it with any of your other baths? Do you have any other suggestions that might help?

Thank you very much,
John

[Pere Casals]

Hi Pere, This is great information. I purchased a commercial pool & hot tub defoamer (not the same brand you're using - I can't find that brand locally and Amazon won't ship it fast enough) and added 2 PPM to my MaxPyro developer. It seems to have improved the situation, but I still see uneven development in the form of bubbles on some of my batch of negatives. I'm processing Ilford Delta 100 5x7 film in a 3006 Expert Drum at ~36 RPM on my CPP-2, and I'm doing a 5:00 presoak and then a ~1:00 rinse prior to the development. (The rinse is to try to remove any foam that might be left-over from the presoak's removal of the Ilford wetting agent that is on the film.) Do you use the defoamer only with the developer? Or do you also use it with any of your other baths? Do you have any other suggestions that might help?

Thank you very much,
John


IMHO you may use it with any bath as it is a pretty inert chem, it's just silicone. The 2 parts per million dose is very low to have any side effect.

I've used it sometimes in the darkroom, but normally I use it a lot in my (non photography) job. My guess is that E6 chem may include it, it is a very, very common solution in the industry for when foam in a problem: cheap, very low dose, inert, highly effective and not toxic, it has all virtudes. It is used from motor oil to frites.


McDonald's frites have it :)

https://yourquestions.mcdonalds.ca/answer/why-do-you-use-dimethylpolysiloxane-in-your-fries-its-also-an-ingredient-in-silicon-caulk-and-hair-conditioner-/
https://web.archive.org/web/20190305092826/https://yourquestions.mcdonalds.ca/answer/why-do-you-use-dimethylpolysiloxane-in-your-fries-its-also-an-ingredient-in-silicon-caulk-and-hair-conditioner-/

I'd like to know if it is included in the chewing gum to prevent people dropping foam from mouth :)

___

Seriously, just use it when foam is a problem for you.



I still see uneven development in the form of bubbles on some of my batch of negatives.

Please post a crop of the scan with the uneven development.

Ilford datasheet says: "A pre-rinse is not recommended as it can lead to uneven processing." https://www.silverprint.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Delta-100.pdf

Pre-rinse removes surfactants in the emulsion that are important for an even development, still many people are happy with pre-soak, you do a long enough pre-soak to not have problems, but anyway I'd try without pre-soak.

What it delivers problems is a too short pre-soak, because it removes the surfactants and emulsion is left with a non uniform wetting. Most moderm films are designed to not require pre-soaking.



Regards,
Pere

[John Foxe Sheets]

IMHO you may use it with any bath as it is a pretty inert chem, it's just silicone. The 2 parts per million dose is very low to have any side effect.

Thanks - I'll try it in all baths.


Please post a crop of the scan with the uneven development.
Here are two photos that show the issue. One is a closeup of the other. (Note that I adjusted the scans to make the problem more visible.)
193728193729


Ilford datasheet says: "A pre-rinse is not recommended as it can lead to uneven processing."

Thanks - I know. But they also say (elsewhere) that since Jobo recommends pre-rinse that you should do it and make sure you do it for at least 5:00 - which is what I'm doing. FWIW, I tried without a pre-rinse and the problem was even worse, but that was without the defoaming agent...

Thanks,
John

[Pere Casals]

193728193729


This problem is not from foam, I guess.

> Check if it is a bad fixing, fix it again in fresh fixer.

> Check if it is anti-halation layer that is not well removed https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/removing-solubility-of-anti-halation-layers-of-various-films.54119/#post-790211 , try with an hypo-clear bath with the sheet of the crop, or of add a table spoon
of sodium sulphite i the pre-soak and rinse before developer

Are you sure that this is from development ?

>>> I guess you know that the emulsion side has to face the inside of the tube, but it had to be mentioned.

[John Foxe Sheets]

This problem is not from foam, I guess.

> Check if it is a bad fixing, fix it again in fresh fixer.

> Check if it is anti-halation layer that is not well removed https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/removing-solubility-of-anti-halation-layers-of-various-films.54119/#post-790211 , try with an hypo-clear bath with the sheet of the crop, or of add a table spoon
of sodium sulphite i the pre-soak and rinse before developer

Are you sure that this is from development ?

>>> I guess you know that the emulsion side has to face the inside of the tube, but it had to be mentioned.

Thank you Pere. The process noted in the linked post is quite similar to mine. The only meaningful differences are no pre-soak, longer fix (I use two 2:00 fixes), no hypo-clear, and few other baths overall. I was using hypo-clear but I don't think it was making a difference. But I'd tried so many thing since then that I'm not 100% sure. I'll try again with fresh fix and then hypo-clear and see how things go. I'll let you know.

I'll be heading to a show tonight that I have a piece in, so it won't be until tomorrow... Here's the piece that's in the show:
193736
One Bridge, Many Suns
2017 Solar Eclipse
Palladium print
Six sheets of 5x7 film, 18 exposures total

And yes, I know the emulsion goes on the inside. But thanks for asking - it never hurts to be sure!

Best regards,
John

[Pere Casals]

And yes, I know the emulsion goes on the inside. But thanks for asking - it never hurts to be sure!

Me, I've even loaded sheets with emulsion facing holder's septum !! :)

[John Foxe Sheets]

I'm happy to say my last test was a success. The key difference from my previous tests was that I stop dumping the chemistry as soon as the major flow is completed. I had been letting things trickle for too long. Here is a screen shot of the scans of the three negs I developed...
193831

Thank you for your assistance, Pere!

[Pere Casals]

Great!