Technika lensboard to Chinese copy comparison

[Greg Davis]

Thanks to AJ Edmondson for lending me an original board, I compared it to a couple different Chinese copies from eBay. The price make them attractive, but only if they work.


https://youtu.be/uWOLlahcj3Y

[Tin Can]

Especially for the Copal 3 size, which we often mount very heavy lens, I would like to see how they crack in 1/2.

I did have a copycat 'Linhof' type board fail by crack.

[Bob Salomon]

Very interesting, but as I have frequently mentioned, Linhof has tightented the specifications of their boards and their cameras several years ago and, unfortunately, the Linhof board you chose to measure is 30 odd years old and not the current board.
All Linhof boards made since reunification in 1989 are marked Germany. All boards made from the end of the war to 1989 are marked West Germany.

Not all boards marked Germany are made to the tighter specifications. To be sure use one made in the past few years to compare to copies.

The tightening of the specs mean that the newer boards may not fit into older Master and earlier models without scraping off the paint finish on the long edges of the board with a butter knife.

[Leigh]

The main falacy with this is that the effort does not include analyzing the metal content.

As a machinist and a moderator on the largest machinist forum on the web, I see many
comments about how raw materials from the large country across the Pacific have very
bad inclusions (i.e. like rocks and similar unmachinable content) as well as non-uniform
strength profiles.

it takes extensive analysis using expensive equipment to find irregular alloys. It seems
to be common practice to throw whatever scrap metal is handy into the melting vat,
then use whatever comes out to form ingots identified by whatever metal constitutes
the highest percentage of the content.

- Leigh

[Greg Davis]

The main falacy with this is that the effort does not include analyzing the metal content.

As a machinist and a moderator on the largest machinist forum on the web, I see many
comments about how raw materials from the large country across the Pacific have very
bad inclusions (i.e. like rocks and similar unmachinable content) as well as non-uniform
strength profiles.

it takes extensive analysis using expensive equipment to find irregular alloys. It seems
to be common practice to throw whatever scrap metal is handy into the melting vat,
then use whatever comes out to form ingots identified by whatever metal constitutes
the highest percentage of the content.

- Leigh

That’s interesting. I look forward to your review. Let us know when you finish it.

[Leigh]

That’s interesting. I look forward to your review. Let us know when you finish it.
You'll be waiting a long time.

I don't buy anything made over there in the first place.

You fail to understand one key factor...
They do not exercise anything resembling quality control. So the results of analyzing one example of a product cannot be expected to represent the characteristics or quality of that product in general.

- Leigh

[Sal Santamaura]

...They do not exercise anything resembling quality control...Japan almost universally embraced the statistical quality control approach "preached" by W. Edwards Deming, who'd been rejected by U.S. industry. As a result, products from that island country went from being derisively referred to as "Japanese junk" to displacing western industrialized nations for the reputation of highest quality in the world.

I see no such trend in Chinese products. There may be exceptions, but most continue to represent the bottom of the barrel in terms of quality, safety and durability. So much wasted potential. Sad.

[Kiwi7475]

I think some of us are getting too wrapped up too much in this.
The bottom line is that it appears to be a product of decent quality, I myself have 3 of them as well as original Linhoff’s and they’re perfectly usable and do the job they’re supposed to do just fine.
I appreciate the quality is not the same, the material purity is not the same, the control isn’t there per se, but as usual the cost difference makes it such that one could absorb one or two with issues for the price of an “original” one.
I appreciate the video and the message. For those that want higher quality and a brand name, we all know where to go.

[Jonathan Barlow]

You'll be waiting a long time.

I don't buy anything made over there in the first place.

You fail to understand one key factor...
They do not exercise anything resembling quality control. So the results of analyzing one example of a product cannot be expected to represent the characteristics or quality of that product in general.

- Leigh


Which brand of Swiss Made computer are you using to post replies to this forum?

[Jac@stafford.net]

There is an old Chinese joke. A Chinese manufacturer established a new plant by a mountain and several years later out of curiosity voyaged across the mountain only to find a perfect copy of his factory.

[Bob Salomon]

There is an old Chinese joke. A Chinese manufacturer established a new plant by a mountain and several years later out of curiosity voyaged across the mountain only to find a perfect copy of his factory.

At major photo shows some of our suppliers kept a cloth in the booth that they would cover new products with if they saw Chinese attendees approaching the booth.

At one CES show that we exhibited in an American made robot vacuum cleaner was introduced in a booth near us. By the next to last day an almost identical one was roaming around a Chinese company’s booth nearby!

[PRJ]

That’s interesting. I look forward to your review. Let us know when you finish it.

That totally cracked me up. Lol.

It isn't like we are talking about an airplane wing here. Some people just loooooooove being an expert. I guess I better go check my lens boards for rocks now. Maybe a diamond accidentally got into one.

Keep making the videos Greg. You are doing a good job., although that into....

[Leigh]

For anyone who actually cares to research the problem, go to www.PracticalMachinist.com/vb/
and look around a bit. The members are professional machinists.

With 10.6 Million unique visitors/year, it's a bit larger than LFPF.

- Leigh

[Peter Collins]

Well, certainly Leigh has trump, but I'm not sure what the game is.

[Pere Casals]

There is an old Chinese joke. A Chinese manufacturer established a new plant by a mountain and several years later out of curiosity voyaged across the mountain only to find a perfect copy of his factory.

Jac, this was the past. Today this is different, they are to lead the 5G global networking, not a joke.

[faberryman]

I don't have any Linhof branded lens boards for my Technikardan. I don't know where my unmarked lens boards came from but they all seem to work fine. Nobody has asked me what brand lens board I use when viewing my work, though I will occasionally get a question about my camera and lens.

[Mike in NY]

Some of the responses on this thread border on the absurd. It reminds me of the line from Gilbert & Sullivan's HMS Pinafore: "I know that he is a truly great man, for he told me so himself."

I come to this forum hoping for exactly the kind of relevant topics and practical advice that Greg's videos offer. What's depressing is to see certain members nit-pick at such solid forum contributions, especially when their remarks wander so far from the OP's main point as to be nearly irrelevant and a waste of other members' time.

If we were to compare the value-added by Gregg's videos to the nit-picking of his detractors, there would be no contest.

Keep up the videos, Greg. I'm trying to improve my skills, my kit, and my darkroom. I've watched three of your videos today, and each one helped me accomplish that goal... while none of the detracting comments on this thread did so.

[Jac@stafford.net]

Jac, this was the past. Today this is different, they are to lead the 5G global networking, not a joke.

5G is promoted today from companies that cannot yet support it. There is too much vaporware promoted today.

[djdister]

I don't mount any of my lenses that are a Copal 3 on a Technika board - those only go into my Canham boards. Those are solid lens boards.

[Pere Casals]

5G is promoted today from companies that cannot yet support it. There is too much vaporware promoted today.

Huawei has shipped 25,000 5G base stations yet.

This is the world's biggest producer of telecommunication equipment, and they just launched its first core chip named TIANGANG designed explicitly for the 5G base station.

Last month, Huawei said its total revenue increased to US$109bn with 21% year-on-year growth, surpassing US$100bn for the first time. Intel had a US$70.7bn revenue, if one wants to compare.

Who makes the networks also owns the backdoors.

Sorry for the off.

[blue4130]

5G is promoted today from companies that cannot yet support it. There is too much vaporware promoted today.


Promoting the service maybe (att), the hardware is fully ready and not made by those companies.

[faberryman]

I don't know how many Gs my phone has, but I seem to be able to make calls just fine.

[pepeguitarra]

At major photo shows some of our suppliers kept a cloth in the booth that they would cover new products with if they saw Chinese attendees approaching the booth.

At one CES show that we exhibited in an American made robot vacuum cleaner was introduced in a booth near us. By the next to last day an almost identical one was roaming around a Chinese company’s booth nearby!

A Swiss watch maker discovered that he could build a watch using quartz and his bosses did not think it was going to be a permanent thing, after all, they were the master watch makers. They even exhibited the quartz watch made by the employee at a watch fair in Berna. Japanese with cameras came to visit the fair, and few months later, they "invented" the quartz watch. Who has a Swiss watch anymore?

[Bob Salomon]

A Swiss watch maker discovered that he could build a watch using quartz and his bosses did not think it was going to be a permanent thing, after all, they were the master watch makers. They even exhibited the quartz watch made by the employee at a watch fair in Berna. Japanese with cameras came to visit the fair, and few months later, they "invented" the quartz watch. Who has a Swiss watch anymore?

When we introduced the Rollei 6008 as the U.S. distributor I received a fax from a company in China that said that if we would send them one they would copy it and save us a “lot” of money!

[Tin Can]

We desperately need 5G or better, but...

[HMG]

At major photo shows some of our suppliers kept a cloth in the booth that they would cover new products with if they saw Chinese attendees approaching the booth.

At one CES show that we exhibited in an American made robot vacuum cleaner was introduced in a booth near us. By the next to last day an almost identical one was roaming around a Chinese company’s booth nearby!

I'll treat this story as apocryphal. To my knowledge, the CES show has always been 3-4 days.; giving that Chinese company 1 to 2 days to create an almost identical copy. A bit much, even for the masters of imitation.

That doesn't change the fact that there is a long history of intellectual property theft. But we're fooling ourselves if we think that all they can do is copy. And they're not slaves to the next quarter's earnings statement.

[Bob Salomon]

I'll treat this story as apocryphal. To my knowledge, the CES show has always been 3-4 days.; giving that Chinese company 1 to 2 days to create an almost identical copy. A bit much, even for the masters of imitation.

That doesn't change the fact that there is a long history of intellectual property theft. But we're fooling ourselves if we think that all they can do is copy. And they're not slaves to the next quarter's earnings statement.

CES had been longer.

[Pere Casals]

We desperately need 5G or better, but...

No, we don't need that at all, but anyway this will shape future.

Two years ago I attended an IOT (Internet Of Things) seminar, a case was Amazon Dash Button design.

5G is the infrastructure for the internet of things, in the near future most of IP nodes won't be computers or smartphones for people, but things, from cars to coffee pots, and bulbs.

In a car perhaps each independent subsystem will have its own connection. Today each turbofan in an airplane may have a dedicated connection to the jet engine manufacturer, so engines can be monitored by who knows about them... this way will be popular in all the industries.

Then it happens that chinese corporations, for the first time, are to lead a critical technologic revolution. This has global security concerns

[Greg]

That doesn't change the fact that there is a long history of intellectual property theft. But we're fooling ourselves if we think that all they can do is copy. And they're not slaves to the next quarter's earnings statement.

Reminds me of a story my Dad told us in the late 1960s. He worked in a machine shop on and off to supplement his self employed job as a carpenter. One time the owner was very proud of a micro drill bit that the company machined. So proud that he sent it to a similar machine shop in Japan. Some weeks later he received the bit back with a hole drilled through it!

[Kiwi7475]

It seems we stopped talking about LF 29 posts ago.


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[Tin Can]

So what exactly is all this data going to run on?

Not wires, not fiber, but radio.


No, we don't need that at all, but anyway this will shape future.

Two years ago I attended an IOT (Internet Of Things) seminar, a case was Amazon Dash Button design.

5G is the infrastructure for the internet of things, in the near future most of IP nodes won't be computers or smartphones for people, but things, from cars to coffee pots, and bulbs.

In a car perhaps each independent subsystem will have its own connection. Today each turbofan in an airplane may have a dedicated connection to the jet engine manufacturer, so engines can be monitored by who knows about them... this way will be popular in all the industries.

Then it happens that chinese corporations, for the first time, are to lead a critical technological revolution. This has global security concerns

[Sal Santamaura]

...What's depressing is to see certain members nit-pick at such solid forum contributions, especially when their remarks wander so far from the OP's main point as to be nearly irrelevant and a waste of other members' time...

I've read all 32 of this thread's posts and wrote two of them. In none has anyone "nit-picked" Greg's contribution. Rather, as often happens, the OP's topic leads to related discussion. Chinese copy products almost always suffer when their quality is compared to that from which they were copied. Reality sucks, but it's real. Anyone who finds that a waste of time will likely continue to purchase low-quality Chinese products and participate in the progressive degradation of things solely because of low price.

It's interesting to note that I don't have a single Linhof-branded Technika-type lensboard among the dozens in my equipment cases. All of them, most purchased new several decades ago, are either Wista or ones made by Mike Walker. None of them use aluminum of lower quality than Linhof-branded boards.

[Pere Casals]

So what exactly is all this data going to run on?
Not wires, not fiber, but radio.

Today if you buy an Amazon Dash Button you have to connect it to your internet router, it uses a wifi connection... this works but you have to configure the connection.

Imagine you buy a freezer with a 5G cheap ($3) mobile hidden inside... it will be always connected to the manufacturer. If motor reheats or if there is a gas leak then manufacturer will know it so he may solve it.

Again, sorry for the off.

[faberryman]

Imagine you buy a freezer with a 5G cheap ($3) mobile hidden inside... it will be always connected to the manufacturer. If motor reheats or if there is a gas leak then manufacturer will know it so he may solve it.
Just think about the liability the manufacturer would incur if if failed to notify you of a gas leak and your house blew up.

[Mike in NY]

Chinese copy products almost always suffer when their quality is compared to that from which they were copied. Reality sucks, but it's real. Anyone who finds that a waste of time will likely continue to purchase low-quality Chinese products and participate in the progressive degradation of things solely because of low price.

In this case, no, and no.

The video demonstrated that one of the Chinese versions was a very serviceable lens board worth being used. Did you not view the video, or if you did, did you miss that part?
Ergo, if someone were to purchase that Chinese made lens board at ~7% of the original manufacturer's asking price, it wouldn't be for a lens board of such lower quality as to make a material difference to their photography.
Moreover, no one has performed a test of the metal alloys used in any of the boards shown versus user requirements, so there is no empirical evidence to back up your claim that it's inferior, at least to the point of not being fit for purpose.


And how many large format cameras of relatively high quality are our members buying from China right now? Many.

So reality doesn't always suck. What sucks is whenever there is a lack of transparency in free markets that prevent people from making purchasing decisions based on more information and their own purchasing criteria, whether it be price alone, or a desire to support traditional LF manufacturers, or to buy domestic whenever possible, or any other criteria they may have.

For the record, my 8x10, 5x7, and both of my 4x5's are all American made, and it wouldn't be appropriate to assume I'm going to run out and buy a Chinese lens board just because of price or someone's video. I work in an industry that places an extraordinarily high value on research and transparency in free markets in a global economy. And Greg's video contributed to that transparency. Did it make everything possibly knowable transparent? No. But after watching it, I had more information about available options than I had before. And that's why I come to this forum.

[Bob Salomon]

In this case, no, and no.

The video demonstrated that one of the Chinese versions was a very serviceable lens board worth being used. Did you not view the video, or if you did, did you miss that part?
Ergo, if someone were to purchase a Chinese made lens board at 7% of the original manufacturer's asking price, it wouldn't be for a lens board of such lower quality as to make a material difference to their photography.
Moreover, no one has performed a test of the metal alloys used in any of the boards shown versus user requirements, so there is no empirical evidence to back up your claim that it's inferior, at least to the point of not being fit for purpose.


And by the way, how many large format cameras of relatively high quality are our members buying from China right now? Many.

So reality doesn't always suck. What sucks is whenever there is a lack of transparency in free markets that prevent people from making purchasing decisions based on more information and their own purchasing criteria, whether it be price alone, or a desire to support traditional LF manufacturers, or to buy domestic whenever possible, or any other criteria they may have.

For the record, my 8x10, 5x7, and both of my 4x5's are all American made, and it wouldn't be appropriate to assume I'm going to run out and buy a Chinese lens board just because of price or someone's video. I work in an industry that places an extraordinarily high value on research and transparency in free markets in a global economy. And Greg's video contributed to that transparency. Did it make everything possibly knowable transparent? No. But after watching it, I had more information about available options than I had before. And that's why I come to this forum.

So, you learned how 2 Asian copy boards that are currently made compare to a least 30 year old Linhof board whose specs have changed.
What you did not learn is how they compare to a current Linhof board.
This might not be important to the camera that you use but it might be very important to someone who wants to use them on a more recent Linhof!

[Mike in NY]

Yes, you've already made the point before, Bob. And after reading it a second time, it still leaves me asking, so what? We've still learned something that we didn't know before as a result of the video, and even more because of the addition of your insights. So what is wrong with that?

Since many forum members use cameras that are over 30 years old, and since the video showed that one of the new Chinese lens boards is an adequate match for the lens boards from over 30 years ago that go with those older cameras, then that's something we know now that we didn't know before.

I could have sworn when I joined this forum that it was for the purpose of sharing and expanding knowledge. Where that video is concerned, so far so good. Maybe the next video will go further.

[Bob Salomon]

Yes, you've already made the point before, Bob. And after reading it a second time, it still leaves me asking, so what? We've still learned something that we didn't know before as a result of the video, and even more because of the addition of your insights. So what is wrong with that?

Since many forum members use cameras that are over 30 years old, and since the video showed that one of the new Chinese lens boards is an adequate match for the lens boards from over 30 years ago that go with those older cameras, then that's something we know now that we didn't know before.

I could have sworn when I joined this forum that it was for the purpose of sharing and expanding knowledge. Where that video is concerned, so far so good. Maybe the next video will go further.

I agree, but comparing specs of a 30+ year old board to current copy boards can easily lead you to conclusions that are not accurate.

[Kiwi7475]

The conclusion is that the cheapos are good enough. The Linhof’s could be perfect or shitty, and it wouldn’t change the first conclusion.
Therefore assume the new ones are perfect, just perfect in all senses. Then decide that justifies paying ~12 times more for it.
For some it will for some it won’t. No one is wrong.




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[jnantz]

Hi Greg:

Great video as usual! My guess is even if the metal is substandard airplane aluminum with stones and coal dust and hen's teeth mixed in, at 14 or 20$ each they are easy to replace cheaply. Thanks again for such an informative series of videos --

John

[AJ Edmondson]

Makes me feel like I need to apologize to Greg for having provided him with a thirty-something year old board to compare.

Joel

[Tin Can]

I'm sure some of us could do destructive testing with Brinell hardness tester (https://youtu.be/RJXJpeH78iU) and a MTS machine (http://www.mts.com/en/index.htm).

I used both for decades.

Perhaps i should withdraw my suggestion to crack 1 or 10 in half like a cookie.

However if I ever break any lens board in actual photography usage I will report.

My apologies to OP, Greg Davis.

[Pfsor]

I'm sure some of us could do destructive testing with Brinell hardness tester (https://youtu.be/RJXJpeH78iU) and a MTS machine (http://www.mts.com/en/index.htm).

I used both for decades.

Perhaps i should withdraw my suggestion to crack 1 or 10 in half like a cookie.


And what would the hardness value tell you about the braking point of the lens board??

[Bruce Barlow]

Jac, this was the past. Today this is different, they are to lead the 5G global networking, not a joke.

5G is a technology designed by the Chinese, the Deep State Silicon Valley billionaires, and transdimensional aliens to control our minds. It's true. I heard it from Alex Jones, so it must be completely true and accurate.

[Sal Santamaura]

...Chinese copy products almost always suffer when their quality is compared to that from which they were copied. Reality sucks, but it's real...


...In this case, no, and no.

The video demonstrated that one of the Chinese versions was a very serviceable lens board worth being used. Did you not view the video, or if you did, did you miss that part?...

In this case, yes, not no. "Lower quality" does not mean the opposite of "very serviceable" in a given application. "Almost always" is not incompatible with "here's one out of a small sample (two) that appears to be good quality." Did you not read the specific words I wrote and, if you did, did you miss that those differences?


...Ergo, if someone were to purchase that Chinese made lens board at ~7% of the original manufacturer's asking price, it wouldn't be for a lens board of such lower quality as to make a material difference to their photography...

An unfounded claim directly contradicted by Greg's video. One of the two Chinese lens boards he reviewed was shown to have sufficient dimensional nonconformity to make placement imprecise and loose.


...I don't have a single Linhof-branded Technika-type lensboard among the dozens in my equipment cases. All of them, most purchased new several decades ago, are either Wista or ones made by Mike Walker. None of them use aluminum of lower quality than Linhof-branded boards.


...no one has performed a test of the metal alloys used in any of the boards shown versus user requirements, so there is no empirical evidence to back up your claim that it's inferior, at least to the point of not being fit for purpose...

No one has mounted a very heavy lens in the Chinese board that Greg doesn't recommend. I wouldn't. The fact is that Chinese metallurgical deficiencies are well known in many fields. Ask a plumber about the "black iron" pipe available at big box stores. As a Boeing engineer, I was shocked to have been selected to sit on a federal jury hearing the case of a defendant charged with 12 felony counts of selling counterfeit aircraft parts. After that experience, I take LULAND's claim of using aircraft-grade aluminum with a grain of salt.


...And how many large format cameras of relatively high quality are our members buying from China right now? Many...In my personal experience with said large format cameras, their quality isn't as high as that of the U.S. and Japanese versions they're copies of. I've never handled Linhof cameras, so can't compare the Chinese products to those.


...What sucks is whenever there is a lack of transparency in free markets that prevent people from making purchasing decisions based on more information and their own purchasing criteria, whether it be price alone, or a desire to support traditional LF manufacturers, or to buy domestic whenever possible, or any other criteria they may have..."Lack of transparency?" What's opaque? Greg posted his video. We watched it. People made comments. Whose comments are suppressed? Whose are derided? Why?

[Corran]

I don't have any Linhof branded lens boards. I don't know where my unmarked lens boards came from but they all seem to work fine. Nobody has asked me what brand lens board I use when viewing my work, though I will occasionally get a question about my camera and lens.

This.
The only Linhof boards I own are second-hand ones that came along with a lens or camera. The Shen-Hao copies I have work great. As I've said multiple times before, the only "bad" board I have is a Wista "copy."

By the way, a huge number of people on this forum are using Chamonix, Shen-Hao, or other Chinese cameras. Are these bad-quality products?

This discussion has long since turned political and frankly probably has more than run its course.

[Jim Jones]

The Chinese have recently been doing what the Japanese were doing in the 1940s and 1950s to catch up with American industrial capabilities. Both countries supported their industries by exporting crap to other countries who valued cheap more than quality while producing increasingly fine items for their own use. Our penchant for shoddy goods may do us in when competition with emerging countries becomes a matter of survival. We may laugh at a country that seems not to master the engineering of a clothes pin, but may yet be the first to land a human on Mars.

[Pere Casals]

5G is a technology designed by the Chinese, the Deep State Silicon Valley billionaires, and transdimensional aliens to control our minds. It's true. I heard it from Alex Jones, so it must be completely true and accurate.

Bruce, let me point what was the context. Here we are comparing german original lensboards to chinese copies. I was challenging the statement that chinese companies only are able to copy things.

What is true is that 5G deployment will substitute (near all) base stations and most of the new ones will be made by chinese corporations incorporating their own chips, and this even has global security concerns.

So those still having the perception that China only manufactures cheapo bazar articles have pretty outdated information.



The Chinese have recently been doing what the Japanese were doing in the 1940s and 1950s to catch up with American industrial capabilities. Both countries supported their industries by exporting crap to other countries who valued cheap more than quality while producing increasingly fine items for their own use. Our penchant for shoddy goods may do us in when competition with emerging countries becomes a matter of survival. We may laugh at a country that seems not to master the engineering of a clothes pin, but may yet be the first to land a human on Mars.

Yes... technology presently mastered by chinese corporations is catching the one in western corporations, and soon they will lead in many fields, and still retaining manufacturing cost competitivity.

They are able to source 5G base stations made with their own components ...and at the same time making very cheap copies of bare lensboards.

So perhaps many countries should reconsider if their strategy is good enough.

[Mike in NY]

In order for a developing economy like China’s to achieve “developed” status where its goods can compete on the basis of quality and not just price, it needs access to capital. Many people think this involves the sale of stock, or investments made by venture capitalists (and it often does). But it's even more important for a country’s manufacturing sector to have access to the international bond market. With more than $100 trillion in securities, the bond market is much larger than all stock markets combined.

The sale of bonds enable a company to fund growth through research, development, increased quality control, expanded production, and distribution at larger scale. But for any given company to sell a bond, potential investors (the bond buyers) need to be able to assess how likely that company is to repay its bonds on time, without defaulting. Investors have to do their own research into a company’s credit worthiness, but as part of that process they often consider the bond ratings and company research published by the international credit rating agencies. Without a third party’s credit ratings, most investors won’t buy a company's bonds.

So what does this have to do with China (and more importantly for the purposes of this forum, what does this have to do with products purchased by photographers)? Until recently, none of the international credit rating agencies had a license to operate in China. But that just recently changed, and may prove to be a significant game changer over time. This sort of development doesn't splash across the headlines of newspapers/websites, so to some it may seem incidental and far removed. But many of the camera, lenses, and film manufacturers we all know and respect didn't just start out of the gate making high quality products; they did so with the help of bond investors. And one of the barriers between those investors and China's manufacturers has just been cleared. The change won't happen over night, and many other factors too numerous to mention could change the game in many other ways. But the one constant we can always count on, is change.

[Pere Casals]

a developing economy like China’s to achieve... ...it needs access to capital..

They have capital in excess, in fact they even had $1.3 trillion invested in US national debt bonds alone in 2011.

[Mike in NY]

Pere,

Can you expound a little; do you mean China has all the capital it needs to fund the expansion of its corporate sector?

China as a nation certainly has extensive capital, and it's well known that China's sovereign wealth funds and institutional investors have invested heavily in US government bonds, because they are among the safest in the world. What I'm talking about is investment by the rest of the world in Chinese corporate bonds, which come with a higher risk profile. A diversified economy needs both domestic and foreign investment; otherwise it's more exposed to systemic risk.

[pepeguitarra]

I think the Chinese dealers already saw your video, they raised the price of the Luland lens board.

[Mike in NY]

i think the chinese dealers already saw your video, they raised the price of the luland lens board.

lmao!!!

[Oren Grad]

Folks, this is not the place for general discussion about the Chinese economy.

[Pere Casals]

Ok...

[Kiwi7475]

But China is a large-format economy! ;-)


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[Pere Casals]

But China is a large-format economy! ;-)


hmmm... beyond the economy, China has an important community of LF photographers about we are not well aware, and speaking about gear manufacturers, if one wants a god brand new field camera sure Chamonix and Shen Hao are to be considered. Also, amazingly, even we can get a Fujinon C 600 re-interpretation, the Kang Rinpoche.

When we buy a budget 3rd party compatible lensboard we can always get a better or a worse product, so be should check the seller's return policy, or be prepared to DIY fix any issue.

IMHO even the cheap one reviewed by Greg can be easily modified to fit tight in the standard, just I would glue two 10mm wide 0.5mm thick alluminium platings, or Alluminium adhesive tape (2 layers, perhaps) in the external face, in the receptacle and lock areas.

Not as nice as the original, of course, but if one has a tight budget better if he is able to fix those kind of problems.

188446

[pepeguitarra]

They landed in the dark side of the moon and grew crops there too.

[Jim Jones]

hmmm... beyond the economy, China has an important community of LF photographers about we are not well aware, and speaking about gear manufacturers, if one wants a god brand new field camera sure Chamonix and Shen Hao are to be considered. Also, amazingly, even we can get a Fujinon C 600 re-interpretation, the Kang Rinpoche.

When we buy a budget 3rd party compatible lensboard we can always get a better or a worse product, so be should check the seller's return policy, or be prepared to DIY fix any issue.

IMHO even the cheap one reviewed by Greg can be easily modified to fit tight in the standard, just I would glue two 10mm wide 0.5mm thick alluminium platings, or Alluminium adhesive tape (2 layers, perhaps) in the external face, in the receptacle and lock areas.

Not as nice as the original, of course, but if one has a tight budget better if he is able to fix those kind of problems.

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I recommend that photographer's necessary supply, black duct tape, attached to the back of the lens board.

[Pere Casals]

....black duct tape, attached to the back of the lens board.

I agree that black duct tape is a necessary supply !!!

Anyway in this particular case the circular light trap nearly reaches the board boundary, and added thickness in the back separates the light trap from the receptacle:

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So perhaps in this particular case the solution in the front can also be considered... But sure that the camera looks nicer with black tape in the back.

[Tin Can]

Gaff tape is far better and easier to remove after some time.

The worst tape was Photographer black paper tape used well before my time that is impossible to remove.

Now we have tapes for every purpose. Gaff tape is not waterproof, some duct tapes are.

Choose your tapes carefully.

[Greg Davis]

I think the Chinese dealers already saw your video, they raised the price of the Luland lens board.

As I said in my reply to you on YouTube, the actual maker, Luland, has not raised their prices. Their eBay store is Luland66. I have a link to it in the video’s description. There are a couple of sellers raising their prices, but in researching this before filming, I saw a trend of prices going up among them. That is why I didn’t link to their stores. As of right now, they are still $13.99 with free shipping. They will also cut a custom size hole at no extra charge for people with Ilex and Compur shutters.

[Greg Davis]

Bob, what changed? I’m assuming you mean the size. Since the Chinese boards were slightly different than the Linhof, are they actually closer to the current board? I read aloud and show the calipers when I measure, so you should be able to give us a clue as to what the differences are.

I also noticed that while several people have jumped on the Chinese for copying lensboards, nobody has mentioned that Michael Smith/Paula Chamlee, CatLabs, and Midwest Photo are currently copying the Kodak Master 8x10 board.

[Bob Salomon]

Bob, what changed? I’m assuming you mean the size. Since the Chinese boards were slightly different than the Linhof, are they actually closer to the current board? I read aloud and show the calipers when I measure, so you should be able to give us a clue as to what the differences are.

I also noticed that while several people have jumped on the Chinese for copying lensboards, nobody has mentioned that Michael Smith/Paula Chamlee, CatLabs, and Midwest Photo are currently copying the Kodak Master 8x10 board.

Linhof, several years ago, tightened the specifications on the Technika and TechniKardan front standard and at the same time also on the lensboards to prevent the boards from moving horizontally, vertically, front to back and also from corner to corner. This resulted in new lensboards not fitting onto older Technika, including older Master Technikas, unless the long edges had some of the finish scraped off with, what they recommended, a butter knife.

That is why a test comparing new copy boards should have been done against a current Linhof board and not a 30+ year old board.

[Greg Davis]

So the new type were smaller by a few thousandths of an inch? That matches what I found with my Chinese brands. Roughly a tenth of a millimeter smaller, and the German board was a very tight fit into the Sinar adapter.

[Bob Salomon]

So the new type were smaller by a few thousandths of an inch? That matches what I found with my Chinese brands. Roughly a tenth of a millimeter smaller, and the German board was a very tight fit into the Sinar adapter.

Linhof never made boards for anyone other then Linhof. It doesn’t matter if they do or don’t fit the Sinar adapter.
And you have no way of knowing if Sinar changed their adapter board after Linhof tightened their tolerances.

[Greg Davis]

Calm down, Bob, these were just observations I made, not brochure selling points.

[Corran]

Currently on B&H, a new no-frills Linhof #0 board costs $200, or 14x what the "copy" costs according to the above. I also note that some off-brand "Linhof-type" boards available on B&H. I would assume there is no infringement on the size and shape of a lens board, otherwise these "Linhof-type" boards made by many (including many reputable brands) would not be or have been so easily available. I also wonder, to those lambasting other manufacturing, if they really think Linhof boards have 14x the value of the others? My opinion, having used many different "Linhof-type" as well as Linhof-made boards, is that most serve their purpose just fine.

[Daniel Casper Lohenstein]

My opinion, having used many different "Linhof-type" as well as Linhof-made boards, is that most serve their purpose just fine.

No. This is wrong. I recognize it by your prints that you used a crappy chinese lensboard with copycat imitations of stones and pieces of rotten chinese minced meat included. At least by your descriptions next to the gallery print, that not only contains exposure and aperture, development and paper but also the lensboard and cable release manufacturer.

[Pfsor]

No. This is wrong. I recognize it by your prints that you used a crappy chinese lensboard with copycat imitations of stones and pieces of rotten chinese minced meat included.

How typical of him! :)

[Oren Grad]

Time for a break... the signal-to-noise ratio in this thread is falling rapidly.