Epson V700 High Resolution lens

[rdeloe]

I have an opportunity to try an Epson V700 to see how it compares to my camera scanning workflow. The catch is the scanner does not have templates (either Epson or Better Scanning). Obviously I'd want to use the high resolution lens. Is this lens mechanically triggered by the templates, in other words, it only is used if a template is mounted triggering a sensor or switch? Or is it as simple as choosing the "film holder" rather than "film guide" setting in the software? I'll be using VueScan.

[Jim Andrada]

It's been a while since I used the 750 with Vuescan (I upgraded to an IQsmart 2.) but as I recall the higher resolution lens focuses a bit higher than the glass bed so you need either the film holder itself or somerthing else like a piece of glass set the right height above the bed with washers or something. IIRC the scanner does not have any auto focus adapability so you have to use something to get the film into the plane of best focus.

[Heroique]

Here’s how I understand it (V700/750 with Epson Scan), whose wording may slightly differ from Vuescan:

Selecting “Film (w/ Film Area Guide)” activates the lower resolution lens. The so-called “film area guide” is a cheap piece of plastic Epson wants you to lay on the glass, so you can position the negative on the glass in the right place. You must select this option for 8x10 film – well, unless you want to scan just a portion of it with the higher resolution lens (below).

Selecting “Film (w/ Film Holder)” activates the higher resolution (SHR) lens, which scans a smaller area than 8x10. BTW, I understand this lens scans at a wider aperture than the lower resolution lens.

As Jim notes, the two lenses will have two different optimal scanning heights. One should do some testing to determine the ideal scanning height for each lens!

-----
Note: Epson 4990 users, like myself, must also choose the “film guide” vs. “film holder” option – but since the 4990 has only a single, fixed-focus lens, it doesn’t matter which option is chosen. The single lens will behave the same way for either option.

[Lachlan 717]

My understanding is that there are registration holes in the holders that “trigger” the device to allow the higher resolution settings, thus the higher rea lens.

This was passed on to me when I was trying to set up a film holder for 7x17” sheets to allow high res scanning of larger sheet stock.

When I checked my Betterscan holders and OEM holders, both had holes. They’re quite small.

[Pere Casals]

it only is used if a template is mounted triggering a sensor or switch?

Yes... when the scanner detects a film holder then it uses the high resolution lens that covers "only" 5.9" wide and it is focused several mm over the bed glass.. I guess holder type is detected optically. If not, low res lens is used, covering the entire illuminated bed and focused on the glass surface.

The high resolution lens take 6400 real hardware samples per inch or dpi, while the low res one takes 4800. The HR lens delivers 2800 or 2300 optical dpi performance depending on the axis, while the low res one would deliver proportionally less (48 vs 64).

Scanning sheets on bed with the low res lens would give you a very acceptable image quality anyway. With 35mm roll film, even the HR lens comes a bit short in performance.

Also remember that the EPSON scans always require some sharpening in Photoshop, while Pro scanners usually have good smart image processing hidden inside that optimizes the image sharpness, this is explained in this review: https://petapixel.com/2017/05/01/16000-photo-scanner-vs-500-scanner/

[Leigh]

Only the V750 has the high resolution lens. The V700 does not.

That's why I bought the V750.

- Leigh

[rdeloe]

Thanks everyone for the advice. I'm now able to add a bit to this knowledge. I wrote the author of Vuescan to ask about this, and Ed indicated that there is only one lens in the V700 and V750, but that lens has two zoom positions. One of those zoom positions covers about 7" wide (that's "high resolution"), and the other 8" wide but without infrared (the "low resolution"). As is widely documented on the Internet, the only difference between the V700 and V750 is some anti-reflection coatings on the latter -- otherwise identical.

Ed confirmed that the high resolution feature can be activated from Vuescan without needing to have a template installed. Apparently I just need to make sure the calibration position does not have any film blocking it.

I look forward to trying this out. I used to own a V750 but was never happy with the results from dry scanning. Fluid mounting turned out to be extremely easy, so I'm now curious to see how much of my bad results from last time were operating error (probably mostly...)

Edit: The "calibration position" is the area shown here:

188271

[Pere Casals]

Only the V750 has the high resolution lens. The V700 does not.

That's why I bought the V750.

- Leigh

Leigh, both have the two lenses, in the 750 lenses are coated.

It is the 4990 that has a single lens...

[Doug Fisher]

To sum up since there is conflicting information in some posts here, the fixed focus lenses are changed/selected via the software options Heroique described. The small dots are to alert the software to the format size and holder being used so it better knows where and how to crop. The lower resolution lens is supposed to be focused right at the bed level but is often focused closer to 1 mm. The high resolution lens that has the narrower field of view is supposed to be focused at 3 mm. Both lenses are often not focused at the exact plane of intended focus. The difference between the V700 and 750 optics as well as 800 and 850 optics is a coating although you will be hard-pressed to find examples where this coating has shown to produce an appreciable difference. As Pere said, the 4990 only has one fixed focus lens which means there is a focus compromise when it comes to scanning 8x10. The lens is supposed to be focused at 1 mm off the glass but often is in the 1.5-2.0 mm range based on what others have reported back to me.

Doug

[Pere Casals]

The lens is supposed to be focused at 1 mm off the glass but often is in the 1.5-2.0 mm range based on what others have reported back to me.


Doug, here we have a test showing through focus performance for the V750 high res lens:

188276


The lower res lens would be less DOF critical, because of the shorter focal, and becasue of the lower peak resolving power. IMHO when scanning on bed 1mm (or 2mm) would not be noticed.

[Heroique]

The lower resolution lens is supposed to be focused right at the bed level but is often focused closer to 1 mm.

Quick tip: since the lower resolution lens (i.e., for 8x10) often focuses above the bed, users should certainly test using a homemade 8x10 film holder (mounting station) with this option, instead of the film area guide. Indeed, testing may indicate that both lenses work best with the film holder – which would be set at a unique height for each lens. Goodbye cheap film area guide, goodbye Newton rings from the scanning bed.

[Steven Ruttenberg]

Actually there is a bar you put in the calibration area that triggers the lower resolution lens for film on the scan glass directly. If this bar is not out in the calibration area of the scanner then the hi res lens is used. This is why the better scanning and peso film holders have a cut out at the top of the film holder. The V700 should be same as as V850.

[neil poulsen]

This is all very interesting. What a conniving way for Epson to "encourage" buyers to invest in the 750, versus the 700. (Or, the 850 versus the 800.) They COAT (jeesh) the lens in the 750/850!

Maybe they didn't learn about coating technology until after they developed the 700, or somethin'? Do ya suppose?

Screw them and the horse they rode in on!

[rdeloe]

Sadly minor differentiation is an all too common marketing strategy. Visit your local drugstore and start comparing the version of cough medicine. I found two versions by the same manufacturer that had exactly -- I mean exactly -- the same medicinal and non-medicinal ingredients. The pharmacist gave it the old college try to explain why they were different... but after reading the boxes she finally had to admit that they were identical, and the goal of the manufacturer was to sell you both bottles.

Them and their horses indeed!

[Lachlan 717]

Didn’t the V750 also come with the wet mount system as standard?

I don’t think that the differentiation was solely based on the lens’ coating; it was a better “system” than the V700.

[rdeloe]

Didn’t the V750 also come with the wet mount system as standard?

I don’t think that the differentiation was solely based on the lens’ coating; it was a better “system” than the V700.

When I bought my V750 new a few years ago, it did not come with the wet mount station. It might have come with a PRO version of SilverFast (but I used Vuescan so I can't remember). Perhaps afterwards they started including the wet scan station? I don't know.

[Jim Andrada]

When I got my 750 it did come with the wet mounting "station" (if one can call a piece of glass in a plastic frame a "station"...)

[Doug Fisher]

>>Actually there is a bar you put in the calibration area that triggers the lower resolution lens for film on the scan glass directly. <<

That bar which mimics the calibration gap found in holders is necessary in order to get the scanner to calibrate correctly but it does not initiate switching of lenses. As mentioned before, switching of lenses is initiated by the software setting selection.

Doug

[rdeloe]

>>Actually there is a bar you put in the calibration area that triggers the lower resolution lens for film on the scan glass directly. <<

That bar which mimics the calibration gap found in holders is necessary in order to get the scanner to calibrate correctly but it does not initiate switching of lenses. As mentioned before, switching of lenses is initiated by the software setting selection.

Doug

So does the scanner not calibrate correctly, or at all, unless this "bar" is put in position, or a holder that has a "calibration gap" is used?

[Doug Fisher]

If you allow anything to cover or encroach within the calibration area, it usually causes a bad calibration or lines in a scan. A bad calibration can be anywhere from colors slightly off to very slow scans that produce bizarre distorted colors. Small specks in the calibration area often result in lines down a scan. If you don't use the bar (or the "film area guide" which served the same purpose with the V7xx series) but keep the calibration gap area clean and clear, you might get lucky and receive a decent scan. Usually not, but it can be random.

Doug

[jim10219]

Sadly minor differentiation is an all too common marketing strategy. Visit your local drugstore and start comparing the version of cough medicine. I found two versions by the same manufacturer that had exactly -- I mean exactly -- the same medicinal and non-medicinal ingredients. The pharmacist gave it the old college try to explain why they were different... but after reading the boxes she finally had to admit that they were identical, and the goal of the manufacturer was to sell you both bottles.

Them and their horses indeed!

Yeah, it's pretty common practice. The only difference between Excedrin and Excedrin for Migraines is the directions and the price. The pills are identical. Glaxo Smith Kline will even readily admit that, though their argument is that they're not legally allowed to sell them as the same product because of FDA regulations on the different directions and they can't control how retailers price their items.

And it's also not uncommon for electronics to be identical, yet have different software or firmware to control features. Or they might pull a board out at the end of the production line, or house it in a slightly different plastic body that hides a feature. It costs less money to make two things identical at the factory, and then just flip a switch at the end of the line to give illusion of two different products. Or in this case, load different lenses in to the lens attaching machine on different days (or however they do it).

Computer CPUs are another product that's done like this. They'll make a bunch at a time on a single wafer. Then they cut them down after production, and label some as, let's say 4 GHz processors, and others as 3.5 GHz and others as 2.8GHz. Then they'll set the processors to those speeds in firmware, and sell them at three (or more) different price ranges, even though they're all virtually the same. Now they will test them to see how stable they run at those listed speeds, so the 4GHz may actually handle heat better than the 2.8 GHz version. But there are also market factors involved, so if they want to keep the demand high for 4GHz processors, they may sell a bunch of processors that tested at 4GHz as 3GHz (and set them as such in the firmware), to ensure they're not over saturating their high end product. Hence why overclocking processors is so common, and so unpredictable.

Or look at most any table top power tools. One look at all of the various brands of drill presses or scroll saws (for example) will tell you they're all the same thing, made in the same plant using the same core parts, just with some slightly different features (there are only a few different options and each brand seems to choose a unique combination of those same options) and different colors of plastic and stickers. Yet as the brands change, so do the prices, and oddly enough, the user ratings and product reviews.

It's the way the modern world works. Don't get mad over it. Because if you do, you'll spend the rest of your life in a state of fury, because it is EVERYWHERE!

[j.e.simmons]

Just to round out this thread - the lens choice is controlled by the vuescan software. To select the high resolution lens select input mode "transparency." To select the low resolution lens select "transparency 8x10." This is regardless of filmholder. I got this from Ed Hamrick.

[Jim Andrada]

I went looking for apple juice a few weeks ago when I had to skip food for 10 days and just drink clear liquids. I noticed at one store they had Martinelli Apple Juice next to Martinelli Apple Cider and the cider was a buck or two more than the juice. Curious about the difference I looked up the maker's website where they explained that both products were identical - it's just that in some areas people call it Apple Juice and in others people call in Apple Cider so they make two different labels for the same thing.

[Tin Can]

Has anybody actually seen the 2 lenses by physically looking at them?

Seems odd that the device would switch lenses in and out

When my V700 breaks, I will take it apart, just as I have failed laptops

[Pere Casals]

Has anybody actually seen the 2 lenses by physically looking at them?


A lens holder has the two lenses, the holder is displaced laterally to interchange the lenes:

200488

See page 24 in the Service manual, it can be downloaded here:


https://www.manualslib.com/manual/1000666/Epson-Perfection-V700-Photo.html?page=10#manual

[Tin Can]

Good data, never saw that diagram before

Some are saying Vuescan can select Hi Rez lens if the 8X10 mask is NOT used, but seems it will not reach the outer limits of the glass platten

Seems the optical range as seen in the diagram disallows the larger area to the platten edges with Hi Rez

That answers a question I have had for a while

When scanning full platten with documents or prints the focus is at the glass surface with Low Rez lens

Thanks for the download!

[Alan Klein]

Does it pay to go with the V800 or V850 rather than the V700 or V750? What are the real differences? I shoot 6x7 MF and now I'll be also shooting 4x5.

[Tin Can]

My V700 is now 7 years old, but even the V850 has been in production for a bit long...

Depends on what you need a scanner for

Right now when mine breaks and it will, I will copy all negs on a good LED light table with either a cell phone of my best DSLR

but I seldom make a DIGI print from negatives, only did that 3 times

I send DSLR files to an online printer and they send me prints, far cheaper for me

[Jim Andrada]

Interesting that they refer to it as high resolution and super resolution.

[j.e.simmons]

Again, according to Ed Hamrick, in Vuescan the higher resolution lens is activated by selecting “transparency” in the input section. The lower resolution lens is selected by picking 8x10 transparency. That’s regardless of film holder.

[Pere Casals]

Again, according to Ed Hamrick, in Vuescan the higher resolution lens is activated by selecting “transparency” in the input section. The lower resolution lens is selected by picking 8x10 transparency. That’s regardless of film holder.

In this way Vuescan avoids having to detect the holder to automaticly swap the lens. This suggests that decision to swap the lens is made by Epson Scan and firmware simply obeys.

[Tin Can]

Yes but

If the 'most high one' is selected it will never reach the sides of 8X10 negs?


Again, according to Ed Hamrick, in Vuescan the higher resolution lens is activated by selecting “transparency” in the input section. The lower resolution lens is selected by picking 8x10 transparency. That’s regardless of film holder.

[Tin Can]

I am looking at the angle of view diagram, Pere, supplied

[j.e.simmons]

Yes but

If the 'most high one' is selected it will never reach the sides of 8X10 negs?

So far as I understand, and from my one test, yes. I scan a 4x5 negative in transparency mode with the 8x10 mask and the scan is high resolution and fully covers the negative. If I scan an 8x10 negative with exactly the same setup, the edges and ends of the negative are not covered.

[Pere Casals]

So far as I understand, and from my one test, yes. I scan a 4x5 negative in transparency mode with the 8x10 mask and the scan is high resolution and fully covers the negative. If I scan an 8x10 negative with exactly the same setup, the edges and ends of the negative are not covered.

ok, but be aware that the Vuescan manual selection of the lens may end in a pitfall, when the higher res lens is selected then focus is at the holder's height, so a holder is required to have the media in focus, and when lower resolution lens is selected we have to scan on the glass bed, as that lens is focused there, if we do that wrong our media won't be in focus.

With Epson Scan there is no problem because lens selection is based on detection of the holder in place, so always the media is in the right distance for the lens.


_________________________________


Just one consideration, with the higher res lens... amazingly the V700 resolves 2900 effective DPI in a 149.9 width (5.9") for the hor axis, covering four 35mm strips at the same time!!!


A big improvement for the Epson would be using a "Super-Resolution" lens covering only 4" instead 5.9", still three 35mm strip would fit and the resolving power would increase to 2900 x 5.9 /4 = 4277 effective dpi, thanks to the amazing 40k pix sensor it has, both for 35mm, MF and 4x5" media.

I'd say that this is more viable with the new holders sporting ANR glass and adjustable height, perhaps with the older holders this would not be as benefical because flatness was not ensured in the same way.


The V700 design has the potential to easily improve remarkably by simply using a longer focal covering less (for the Higher res lens) and improving a bit the the carriage movement.

[IanBarber]

ok, but be aware that the Vuescan manual selection of the lens may end in a pitfall, when the higher res lens is selected then focus is at the holder's height, so a holder is required to have the media in focus, and when lower resolution lens is selected we have to scan on the glass bed, as that lens is focused there, if we do that wrong our media won't be in focus.

With Epson Scan there is no problem because lens selection is based on detection of the holder in place, so always the media is in the right distance for the lens.

What happens if you are using the Epson Mounting station which sits on the bed. Do you select With Film Holder or Without Film holder in the software

Ian

[Kirk Gittings]

ok, but be aware that the Vuescan manual selection of the lens may end in a pitfall, when the higher res lens is selected then focus is at the holder's height, so a holder is required to have the media in focus, and when lower resolution lens is selected we have to scan on the glass bed, as that lens is focused there, if we do that wrong our media won't be in focus.

With Epson Scan there is no problem because lens selection is based on detection of the holder in place, so always the media is in the right distance for the lens.


_________________________________


Just one consideration, with the higher res lens... amazingly the V700 resolves 2900 effective DPI in a 149.9 width (5.9") for the hor axis, covering four 35mm strips at the same time!!!


A big improvement for the Epson would be using a "Super-Resolution" lens covering only 4" instead 5.9", still three 35mm strip would fit and the resolving power would increase to 2900 x 5.9 /4 = 4277 effective dpi, thanks to the amazing 40k pix sensor it has, both for 35mm, MF and 4x5" media.

I'd say that this is more viable with the new holders sporting ANR glass and adjustable height, perhaps with the older holders this would not be as benefical because flatness was not ensured in the same way.


The V700 design has the potential to easily improve remarkably by simply using a longer focal covering less (for the Higher res lens) and improving a bit the the carriage movement.

Agreed, but what's the likelyhood of them doing an updated/redesigned version these days? The 800/850 is already a 6 years old design.

[Pere Casals]

Agreed, but what's the likelyhood of them doing an updated/redesigned version these days? The 800/850 is already a 6 years old design.


And the V800/V850 it's the same than the 2006' V700, with only a LED illumination update, so the product is now 14 years old and still sold. Only a solid electronic product resists 14 years mostly unchanged: The Last of the Mohicans, looking the circuits they include 74 TTL series chips :)

It is clear is that this update would be no challenge for them, but of course I've no idea about if they plan an update, anyway... as Hasselblads have been discontinued perhaps there is some niche for an upgraded V.

[Alan Klein]

One would think that the sensor chips would be the place to really improve the Epson scanners.

[Pere Casals]

One would think that the sensor chips would be the place to really improve the Epson scanners.

Presently V850 sensor is not limiting resolution performance, it sports an amazingly big sensor with 40k rgb pix in two rows, when Creo, a Cezane or a Hasselblad relied in 8k sensors plus optic zooming.

In the V850 case, of the 6400 dpi on the sensor only 2900 are effective, which is near a miracle as 5.9" x 2900 effective delivers 17110 effective pixels in a single pass.

So an improvement in the sensor won't increase resolution. Also optics are pretty good yet, as the lens takes 17000 effective pixels in a row which is an insane amount, so regarding resolving power the right enhacement may easily come from reducing scan width from 5.9" to 4" or to 6cm, just replacing the lens and enhancing electro-mechanical drive for the carriage.

Regarding dynamic range, best bet would be modifiying firmware to allow multi-exposure in a single pass, this is making a short and a long exposure before advancing the carriage, a solution other scanners may be using.

A better sensor, in theory, would have lower noise at a higher "ISO", so exposures could be shorter, perhaps allowing a faster scanning.

The electronics design is very old and probably well more expensive to manufacture than a today's design which allows a higher integration, reducing the component count, the number of boards and its associated connectivity. Possibly manufacturing cost reduction may pay the investment in an enhanced design, but an attractive forecast for the sells should also be in the middle, I guess.

[j.e.simmons]

What happens if you are using the Epson Mounting station which sits on the bed. Do you select With Film Holder or Without Film holder in the software

Ian
I would use the setting for the higher resolution lens, which I think is the with setting.