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suti
23-Feb-2019, 10:05
Hi All,
I am looking for antique brass portrait lenses for 4x5. I love the effects I have seen on 8x10 portraits taken with Dallmeyer and Darlot lenses. Can you recommend lenses that produce similar effects for 4x5 format?
I have an Ebony 4x5 and a Speed Graphic cameras that I plan to use the lens with.
Thank you very much,
Suti

Lethargus
23-Feb-2019, 11:16
Any half plate lens should be fine, so ~4-6" or similar lenses. Dallmeyer and Darlot both made lenses in that range. I've found a lot of older 5x7 lenses work nicely with 4x5 as well. I've done the same thing and made plate adapters for my Speed Graphic and Premos. I'm guessing you're referring to Petzval or Portrait style lenses and not wide angle or landscape lenses.

http://www.antiquecameras.net/petzvallens/oldarticle.html has a good history summary and talks about the different variations.

paulbarden
23-Feb-2019, 11:17
How much money do you want to spend?

suti
23-Feb-2019, 16:09
Thanks. I don't have a budget in mind, just want to see all available lenses out there. Are lenses from magic lantern Petzval design?

suti
23-Feb-2019, 18:17
Any half plate lens should be fine, so ~4-6" or similar lenses. Dallmeyer and Darlot both made lenses in that range. I've found a lot of older 5x7 lenses work nicely with 4x5 as well. I've done the same thing and made plate adapters for my Speed Graphic and Premos. I'm guessing you're referring to Petzval or Portrait style lenses and not wide angle or landscape lenses.

http://www.antiquecameras.net/petzvallens/oldarticle.html has a good history summary and talks about the different variations.

Thanks, I will check it out. Yes, I ‘m looking for a petzval portrait lens.

paulbarden
23-Feb-2019, 19:10
Thanks, I will check it out. Yes, I ‘m looking for a petzval portrait lens.

The Lerebours et Secretan 15" petzval portrait lens I bought last year cost me $2000. The good ones are not cheap.

Lethargus
23-Feb-2019, 20:30
If you watch ebay you can pick up a Dallmeyer for ~$300-400 or an unmarked (if you're feeling brave) for $100-300, but good ones in good condition are definitely pricey.

goamules
24-Feb-2019, 08:23
Here is the problem with fast Petzvals on Speed Graphics. To get coverage, you need a fairly large lens and lensboard. It's a result of the narrow angle of view of the design. So whereas with modern lenses you may only need a 150mm lens, with a Petzval that won't cover. 175mm probably won't cover, if it's the normal F3.8. So you end up needed a very large, fat lens that won't fit on your 4 inch lensboard. You can go to a slower Petzval, but then lose the signature.

Here is a shot with about a 6" Frederick Cox petzval on a speed graphic. Note the vignetting.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/7/6211/6354626829_08b6072f25_b.jpg

paulbarden
24-Feb-2019, 08:25
Here is the problem with fast Petzvals on Speed Graphics. To get coverage, you need a fairly large lens and lensboard. It's a result of the narrow angle of view of the design. So whereas with modern lenses you may only need a 150mm lens, with a Petzval that won't cover. 200mm probably won't cover, if it's the normal F3.8. So you end up needed a very large, fat lens that won't fit on your 4 inch lensboard. You can go to a slower Petzval, but then lose the signature.

Yup. This too is true. You might opt to pick up a cheap Magic Lantern lens and try that out to see if it delivers what you want.

goamules
24-Feb-2019, 08:29
I know people alter their lens boards to fit larger lenses, like Aeros. So it can be done, just not a fast job. Here is my Speed with a Perkins, son and Rayment. It didn't cover either.

https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3548/3349405200_e03472d278.jpg

suti
24-Feb-2019, 09:07
Thank you very much , everyone for your suggestions. I might try a magic lantern lens first since they are a lot cheaper than the portrait lenses. Garrett, your Speed Graphic setup is very cool. Thanks for sharing the sample image as well.

Andrew Plume
25-Feb-2019, 05:35
Hi Suti

Good luck with your ongoing search

There are a couple of 'issues' that occur to me, partly already touched on

An awful lot of Petzval's/ML lenses were designed with fairly small formats in mind i.e. smaller than 4 x 5. What looks as though it will cover 4 x 5 often turns out not to be the case. I suggest that you if you are intending to, place 'a WTB post' on here, that you specifically ask possible sellers to confirm that any lenses owned will definitely cover 4 x 5

The other point is the size of the Lens Board. Ebony board's are fairly small and this may restrict you. Ideally, I suggest that you start with a Camera that has large Lens Boards, something like a Sinar F1, plenty around on the used market, they're not expensive and are rugged. The Sinar Board is one of the largest commonly available

regards

Andrew

suti
25-Feb-2019, 23:14
Thanks, Andrew. The Sinar F1 is a nice option. I will keep that in mind.

Cheer,
Suti

Andrew Plume
26-Feb-2019, 02:54
Thx Suti, appreciated indeed

regards

Andrew

Mark Crabtree
26-Feb-2019, 10:41
My Darlot petzval fits nicely on a 4x4" board. This one comes out at about 9 1/2" focal length and about f4.2; it covers 5x7 at full length portrait distances and closer, so allows for reasonable movements on 4x5". This is a portrait lens with waterhouse slot.

suti
26-Feb-2019, 12:32
Hi Mark, Could you please post some pictures of your Darlot lens?

Thanks!

RedGreenBlue
27-Feb-2019, 10:04
Hi Suti,

I recently got bit by the petzval bug so I've acquired a variety of lenses to learn more about using them. My experience so far is that a 7 inch petzval, measured from the waterhouse stop to the ground glass, throws a 6 1/2 inch image circle. It will just cover 4x5 at infinity with greater coverage at portrait distances. Additionally, and equally important, the barrel will just fit within the throat of my 4x5 Speed Graphic and 4x5 Chamonix.

I also have some 6 inch portrait petzvals. Both are Darlots. My 7 inchers are unmarked. The 6 inch lenses give a 5 1/2 inch circle and are ideal for quarter-plate. They could be used on a 4x5 with roll holder.

For a compact 4x5 camera, I think 7 inches is the sweet spot.

I attached some photos showing how the 7 inch lens fits the Speed Graphic and Chamonix, also how the flange fits the Graphic and Technika boards. There's a low light shot of the Chamonix ground glass, high ISO, very noisy but it might give you an idea of the coverage. Distance was 8 feet, so no fall-off in the corners.


I still need to mount my lens and shoot with it, which I plan to do soon.

Scott

188157188158188159188160188161

suti
27-Feb-2019, 12:05
Thanks so much, Scott. It's really helpful information. Somehow I can only see the ground glass shot. I would love to see your Darlot lenses.

Thanks again,
Suti

goamules
27-Feb-2019, 14:47
You really won't get much out of seeing a Darlot that is going to help you find an identical one. They did not mark them with their focal length or aperture. They usually are just engraved with "Darlot - AD - Paris" or iterations of that. Two lenses marked that way could be different - one a portrait lens for a camera, one a magic lantern lens (those won't have slots for stops though).

Oh, and about 10 different companies bought Darlots, but had their own names engraved on them!

One other thing to know is that while you can get a 6-7" Petzval to barely fit on a 4" board, it will likely have a lot of edge aberrations. In the day, photographers would use a longer than normal Petzval so that your camera "cropped" all that swirl and darkening at the edges.

RedGreenBlue
27-Feb-2019, 14:51
Thanks so much, Scott. It's really helpful information. Somehow I can only see the ground glass shot. I would love to see your Darlot lenses.

Thanks again,
Suti


Hi Suti,

Strange, I don't know what happened. I'll upload the photos again.

188170188171188172188173

Best wishes,
Scott

suti
27-Feb-2019, 15:51
You really won't get much out of seeing a Darlot that is going to help you find an identical one. They did not mark them with their focal length or aperture. They usually are just engraved with "Darlot - AD - Paris" or iterations of that. Two lenses marked that way could be different - one a portrait lens for a camera, one a magic lantern lens (those won't have slots for stops though).

Oh, and about 10 different companies bought Darlots, but had their own names engraved on them!

One other thing to know is that while you can get a 6-7" Petzval to barely fit on a 4" board, it will likely have a lot of edge aberrations. In the day, photographers would use a longer than normal Petzval so that your camera "cropped" all that swirl and darkening at the edges.

Garrett, you're correct. It's really difficult, if not impossible, for me to tell which lens is which type.

Thanks

suti
27-Feb-2019, 15:53
Hi Suti,

Strange, I don't know what happened. I'll upload the photos again.

188170188171188172188173

Best wishes,
Scott

Thanks again, Scott, for posting the pictures. Your setups are really sweet!

Suti

RedGreenBlue
27-Feb-2019, 16:05
Garrett, you're correct. It's really difficult, if not impossible, for me to tell which lens is which type.

Thanks

Suti,

I have a suggestion. If I'm off-base I welcome correction by more experienced members. I've found that a typical 7 inch focal length portrait petzval will have a front element diameter of 2 inches. That's for lenses with waterhouse slots. I haven't examined enough projection petzvals to know how they compare with portrait (camera lens) petzvals. I don't doubt that there are exceptions depending upon era, manufacturer and design variation but a 2 inch diameter front element is what I've been looking for.

...Scott

suti
27-Feb-2019, 16:43
Thanks, Scott. I will definitely keep that in mind.

ic-racer
27-Feb-2019, 16:59
Can you recommend lenses that produce similar effects for 4x5 format?

Only if the person's head were half-size...

goamules
27-Feb-2019, 18:02
I think you're on the right path. It's a fun hike, really. Buy one on ebay, see what it can do. Ask the seller to give the focal length by holding it a few inches from a wall, in a room with a window across the way. If it's 7-8 inches, give it a try.

Mark Crabtree
27-Feb-2019, 20:37
Hi Mark, Could you please post some pictures of your Darlot lens?

Thanks!

I don't have pictures of the lens, but as Garrett said, I don't think they'd really tell you much. Certainly nothing very impressive looking. A hair under 5" long without the hood, glass is 2 1/4", needs just over a 2 1/2" mounting hole. Depending on the actual flange, it might require a little creativity fitting to a 4x4", but there are plenty of ways to do that, and I don't have a flange anyway.

I believe it is the "1-2" model listed on page 15 of this catalog:
https://www.antiquecameras.net/1890lenscatalogue.html
I believe they are listing back focus; actual focal length is right at 9 1/2 inch. That makes sense since they say 7" focus, and the waterhouse slot is about 2 1/2" from the back.

This is actually one of the better corrected petzvals I've used, and does seem to work well for 5x7 at portrait distances. I would think "1-2" meant it was for half plate. They do say 5x7 in the catalog, but it would be at its best on 4x5.

suti
28-Feb-2019, 17:08
Thank you very much, everyone, for your helpful suggestions. Really appreciated. I'll post an update here if and when I find one...

Best,
Suti