Is this reticulation or grain? - Tri-X 320 4x5 development

[devinnamaky]

Hi all, I have been shooting Tri-X 400 on medium format for awhile. I just started with 4x5 and so the first negative film pack I am trying is Tri-X 320 sheets.

I was experimenting by shooting at the box listed ASA of 320, and then shooting with and without reciprocity correction at shutter times ranging from 2 seconds to 20 minutes to see how the film looks and responds. I have the problem I am asking about here on all of the frames regardless of shutter times or reciprocity / development time, and yes it is on the film itself as I can easily see it on a light box with and without a loupe.

I would best describe what this looks like as "cobblestoning." At first, I thought this was very large (huge) grain based on the scans and the pattern being circular (maybe it is) and that the 320 sheets must just look totally different than I am used to. But as I look at the film itself it looks more like some sort of large tiling pattern.

The film was developed as such:
Used a small hand tank without any reels to process two inward facing sheets at a time.
Initial wash using the hot from the tap, which is limited to around 105 to 110F
Developer 68F (My rooms are cold and I heat it to 68F) D-76 1:1 for 9:45 either without reciprocity correction, or the box listed -10%/-20% when correcting for reciprocity per tech specs
Wash with same hot tap fill and dump 7 times
Fix with Kodak fixer for 5 minutes room temp (which is like 62F)
Photoflo to finish for about 10 minutes in a tray

Here is one of the frames. It's basically just the raw scan with white and black points selected. If you zoom in on it hopefully you can see the pattern. I haven't uploaded images on the site before:
187968

I would like input from those of you more experience than me because if you said "hey that is was TriX 320 normally looks like" then I will consider switching films. But if you said "hey nope it's something YOU are doing and mine doesn't turn out that way", then I will start troubleshooting it because I really liked using small and medium format Tri-X. I used this same process for my small and medium format Tri-X but maybe the 320 if more finicky for some reason. Culprits I would start with might be wash temp, longer fixer, shorter exposure times etc.

Any input appreciated.

Devin

P.S. Ignore the vertical line in the photo... I had to stitch two images together because my scanner doesn't scan 4x5.

[devinnamaky]

So I am uploading a zoomed in version from part of the above image.

I don't think I'm looking too closely at the image. I can see it with my naked eye on the film and it's simply a lot bigger than any grain I have had on Tri-X in the past. I think it is detracting from the sharpness of in focus lines.

If you click on this to zoom in you will see it pretty well:

187969

[paulbarden]

Hi all, I have been shooting Tri-X 400 on medium format for awhile. I just started with 4x5 and so the first negative film pack I am trying is Tri-X 320 sheets.
The film was developed as such:
Used a small hand tank without any reels to process two inward facing sheets at a time.
Initial wash using the hot from the tap, which is limited to around 105 to 110F

Are you saying that the first pre-soak was with HOT water from the tap, at somewhere around 100F?? If so, then YES, you definitely damaged the film by exposure to hot water. I don't know where you got the idea that this was how to do things, but this kind of temperature extreme will cause reticulation, and that is what your film is showing. How did you arrive at the idea that the first water soak was to be done at 100+ Fahrenheit?? That is most definitely not proper procedure. All of the aqueous solutions the film passes through should be within 2 or 3 degrees of each other at all times. Significant deviation from 68F during the process introduces the possibility of reticulation.

PS: please elaborate on your final wash process: you say "Photoflo to finish for about 10 minutes in a tray". Does that mean your film came out of the fixer and into a tray of PhotoFlo and sat there for 10 minutes, at which point you hung it to dry? The final wash requires flowing water that is constantly exchanging for fresh, to remove thiosulfate from the emulsion. If the film sat in the tray in the same water for ten minutes, then you are not removing the fixer from the emulsion. Please elaborate.

[Bruce Watson]

The film was developed as such:
Used a small hand tank without any reels to process two inward facing sheets at a time.
Initial wash using the hot from the tap, which is limited to around 105 to 110F
Developer 68F (My rooms are cold and I heat it to 68F) D-76 1:1 for 9:45 either without reciprocity correction, or the box listed -10%/-20% when correcting for reciprocity per tech specs
Wash with same hot tap fill and dump 7 times
Fix with Kodak fixer for 5 minutes room temp (which is like 62F)
Photoflo to finish for about 10 minutes in a tray

Reticulation.

What possessed you to torture your film like this? When Kodak says process at 68F, it means the entire process, from end to end.

So, all your washes should be at 68F. Developer, stop, and fix at 68F. Photoflow at 68F (and what's with the 10 minutes in photoflow?).

I suggest you obtain and read a copy of the Film Development Cookbook (https://www.freestylephoto.biz/3200-The-Film-Developing-Cookbook-Vol.-2-by-Steve-Anchell-and-Bill-Troop). It might make the process make more logical sense to you, IDK. Of course there are many other good books on the B&W photochemical processes. Do your research and you'll be good to go.

OTOH, record what you did to get to this point. You never know when you might want just this effect sometime in the future. And now you know how to get it.

[jp]

Yes, keep all temps the same or pretty close. The Kodak film is rugged and can probably handle 10f changes in temp between fluids with no problem at all but it should be no problem to keep everything around 68-70f.

I work in a darkroom where it's about 60f also. I put the fixer jug in a tray of hot water when I start developing and when I'm ready for it, it's up to about 70f. Many fixers and other chemicals aren't so active at 60f and don't do their job near that temp.

[neil poulsen]

You can process at other temperatures, like 70 deg., but all baths should be within a couple of degrees or so on temperature. For consistent results, it's important that the developer be at the same temperature batch to batch. (Within a half degree, or less.) As you do your testing, this will help you to reliably compare one test result with another.

Something else that can lead to mottling is insufficient agitation. I agitate 30 seconds at the start, and then about 10 seconds each minute thereafter. (On the half-minute.)

[devinnamaky]

Are you saying that the first pre-soak was with HOT water from the tap, at somewhere around 100F?? If so, then YES, you definitely damaged the film by exposure to hot water. I don't know where you got the idea that this was how to do things, but this kind of temperature extreme will cause reticulation, and that is what your film is showing. How did you arrive at the idea that the first water soak was to be done at 100+ Fahrenheit?? That is most definitely not proper procedure. All of the aqueous solutions the film passes through should be within 2 or 3 degrees of each other at all times. Significant deviation from 68F during the process introduces the possibility of reticulation.

PS: please elaborate on your final wash process: you say "Photoflo to finish for about 10 minutes in a tray". Does that mean your film came out of the fixer and into a tray of PhotoFlo and sat there for 10 minutes, at which point you hung it to dry? The final wash requires flowing water that is constantly exchanging for fresh, to remove thiosulfate from the emulsion. If the film sat in the tray in the same water for ten minutes, then you are not removing the fixer from the emulsion. Please elaborate.

Define “hot.” Water will not feel hot until 120F. I purposely keep the water heater temp down so nobody can get burned by hot water in the home.

I didn’t use 100F water intentionally so I think a few deep breaths are in order.

I develop with minimal equipment at home as a hobby. I wash with warm tap water. I didn’t measure the temperature of the water until after I saw this pattern on the film because I have never had a problem until I used this particular emulsion.

And yes I forgot to add that I do wash with running water from the cold side which is probably 60F or so at the end for 5 minutes prior to letting them sit in a tray of photoflow. The photo flow time was how long it took me to do a couple of chores while I was waiting.

I was previously a chemical engineer and understand chemistry. I realize how many variables I am not controlling for that could have an effect on chemistry, but also that many times we stress over variables that are having a small effect. Again, I used water warm to the touch that I had been using for years without a problem until I tried this new emulsion.

It is helpful to know that this look isn’t a normal look for the film so I appreciate the input. I have many ways I could control the process if needed and can start with the wash temperature as that sound like a common suggestion and that is also appreciated.

Thank you everyone for the input.

[devinnamaky]

You can process at other temperatures, like 70 deg., but all baths should be within a couple of degrees or so on temperature. For consistent results, it's important that the developer be at the same temperature batch to batch. (Within a half degree, or less.) As you do your testing, this will help you to reliably compare one test result with another.

Something else that can lead to mottling is insufficient agitation. I agitate 30 seconds at the start, and then about 10 seconds each minute thereafter. (On the half-minute.)

Thanks for the reply. I will use room temp water. The agitation comment is a good thought I didn’t mention. I agitate 30s at first and then 5 inversions at each minute thereafter. I will as that to the list of possibilities after changing the water I am using.

Thank you.

[devinnamaky]

Your responses made me realize how this tap water issue I created started. I used to do all color C-41 and E6 at home. There are processes to develop these at 102-105F I was using and so that was when I got into the habit of using warm water to pre warm everything. I was keeping all the chemicals at 102 or so in a bath at the time.

When I went to black and white I think that is what made me never question wash temp as an issue as many emulsions are fine with this.

I obviously own what these results are regardless and am glad I am making this mistake on some frames I was using for testing and not when it is critical.

I really appreciate everyone’s experience.

[pepeguitarra]

I have developed Harman positive paper (2 4x5) in a tank the way you described it. I have also developed film the same way with no problems. My main concern was that the anti-halation layer would not dissolve because of being "glued" to the side of the tank. However, I used the continuous rotation method without a problem. I wonder if that has something to do with it. However, I do agree that hot water may have killed the film and the emulsions completely. In the winter, my tap water is about 60F, in the summer, it is 75F or more. I have a tray that I fill with a mix of hot and cold water until I get the 68F. Then I place the developer, bath, fixer, and perma-wash container in it until they reach 68F. No problem at all. A the end I do wash with the cold side of the faucet and dip the film into a Photoflow for 1 min, max. with distilled water.

[Doremus Scudder]

Your responses made me realize how this tap water issue I created started. I used to do all color C-41 and E6 at home. There are processes to develop these at 102-105F I was using and so that was when I got into the habit of using warm water to pre warm everything. I was keeping all the chemicals at 102 or so in a bath at the time.

When I went to black and white I think that is what made me never question wash temp as an issue as many emulsions are fine with this.

I obviously own what these results are regardless and am glad I am making this mistake on some frames I was using for testing and not when it is critical.

I really appreciate everyone’s experience.

It's not the temperature per se, but the rapid change in temperature that causes reticulation. Black-and-white film can be processed within a fairly wide range of temperatures, from about 65°F-76°F or even higher with special considerations, but, if you want to avoid reticulation in the future, keep your processing temperature for one batch within 2°F of each other (or closer, if you're OCD like me).

Just so you know: black-and-white emulsions are not designed to be processed at the same temperature as color emulsions; the hardening is different.

Get yourself a cheap thermometer well that attaches to your faucet and adjust the hot-cold controls till you get running water at the temp you need. Alternately, you can just add hot and cold water to the sink basin or a large bucket or tub and mix till you get your processing temperature. Use this for presoak and wash water. I did things this way for 25 years and have well-processed, unreticulated negatives :)

I've never seen reticulation first-hand. Maybe I'll try your method on a sheet or two just to say I've done it myself.

Best,

Doremus

[Steven Ruttenberg]

I always presoak at same temperature as development. During final rinse I will do the same temp or cooler.

[Jim Noel]

Reticulation caused by rapid change in temperature. The very hot pre-wash is a vry likely culprit. Where did you come across info suggesting this high temp range?

[Jim Noel]

spend a few buckson a thermometer.

[Sal Santamaura]

...I purposely keep the water heater temp down so nobody can get burned by hot water in the home...Your 320TXP reticulation is utterly trivial compared to what could happen as a result of that practice.

Legionella pneumophilia bacteria thrive at such a low temperature. When running water for a shower or the like, mists/vapors containing the bacteria can cause Legionnaire's disease when inhaled by those with compromised immune systems, including smokers, the elderly and anyone currently suffering from an otherwise non-life-threatening lung infection. The only way to permanently ensure Legionella bacteria are not present in a domestic hot water system is to set the water heater temperature at 140 degrees F or higher. Scald protection is then provided by means of automatic thermostatic mixing valves at each point of use, e.g. faucets, tubs, showers.

Many people 'skate' for years with a water heater setting of 120 degrees F. Then, when something changes in their household to render one or more members susceptible, another case of Legionnaire's surfaces. This isn't analogous to the age-old argument about minimum quantity of stock developer needed for each 80 square inches of film. I've described that controversy as "confidence or crap shoot." The only downside to rolling snake eyes in that situation is thin negatives. With water heater temperature, a loss is frequently manifest as death. Don't take a chance.

[pepeguitarra]

Excellent point Sal. Here is additional information (https://www.cashacme.com/resources/hot-water-safety/) on it.

[devinnamaky]

Just to give everyone the follow up. I developed subsequent frames from the same box of film. I used water at room temp for washing instead of the warm tap. Everything else I kept the same. The frames came out perfect. A night and day difference. Thank you for helping me with this.