Toyo 45AII for wide-angle use?

[rpagliari]

Hi all,
I'm considering the Toyo 45AII, because I need a fairly rigid body (in addition to a good tripod) for long exposure architectural photography.

I've got a 75mm lens (schneider) so far.

I'd like to know if I can use the standard bellows with it, and how much raise/fall do I realistically get with such lens (I don't really need the other movements).

I'm also planning to buy a 50mm later on. Does anyone know how much movements would I get with it and if I need a special lens board or a different bellows?

Thank you,

[Peter De Smidt]

Bellows aren't interchangeable. There are recessed lens boards, but I'm not sure that a 50mm would be all that easy to use. I have a Toyo AX, which isn't all that different than the 45A11. If it were me, I'd be thinking of an Toyo VX125 or an Arca f-line with a bag bellows, or similar, for your purpose.

[rpagliari]

The issue with those is that they are either too expensive or too big. The 45AII is fairly compact; if I could just get, say, 10mm raise/fall with a 50mm lens, that would be perfect.

[Peter De Smidt]

What 50mm lens, btw? I know of 47mm, 55mm....? Have you ever tried to use a lens on a small but deeply recessed lens board? It's no fun.

[Mark Sampson]

If you're going to use very wide lenses with movements on 4x5, you'll want a camera with a bag bellows. Preferably a monorail camera- field cameras are at their limits in that application. I used a Zone VI field camera to shoot architecture commercially for some years (with a 75mm lens and a bag bellows). It did the job but things went much easier after I bought a used Sinar.

[rpagliari]

Which Sinar did you get?

[Peter De Smidt]

Or a Cambo Wide, or similar. I agree with Mark. I have a whole bunch of Sinars, and my main landscape camera is a Toyo 45AX. I would never choose the Toyo over one of the Sinars for the application you're talking about. These, though, are bulkier than my earlier suggestions.

[B.S.Kumar]

The Toyo does not have interchangeable bellows. Wista metal field cameras have them, though it can take some time to find them. The older Toyo D45M on a 6" rail with a bag bellows is only slightly larger and heavier and much more versatile than a field camera.

Kumar

[scm]

This is about what a 45A is going to look like with a 50mm lens on the deepest recessed board that I've see, a 25mm. I don't have a 50mm len (or anything close to it) so I was just guessing at the bellows extension, around 6mm rise/fall was all the I could get.

https://stevemidgleyphotography.com/DSC00931.JPG

Using any lens on a 25mm recessed board is going to be a chore, I would need a flashlight and magnifying glasses just to set the aperture

https://stevemidgleyphotography.com/DSC00933.JPG

[Mark Sampson]

rpagliari, I bought a well-used Sinar Norma, for personal photography. (I don't shoot architecture professionally with a 4x5 any more-does anyone?)
In your place I'd look for a Sinar F2 and replace the rail clamp with the more compact Norma part. Doesn't have to be a Sinar- there are several other brands that would do as well. Cambo, Horseman, Toyo, Arca-Swiss, Linhof all come to mind. But Sinars were popular (in the USA at least) so cameras and parts are easy to find. A budget alternative would be the Calumet CC-402 wide-angle camera- a real workhorse. Very wide-angle lenses on field cameras are a recipe for frustration.

[B.S.Kumar]

Toyo used to make a 30mm recessed board - I sold one recently. The flange focal distance of the 47mm f/5.6 Super Angulon XL is ~59mm. So, using this lens on a 30mm recessed board means the front standard is ~90mm away from the ground glass. You would probably get about 10mm rise/fall. But as Steve notes, setting the lens controls would be challenging.

Kumar

[Huub]

In the past i have used a 58mm SA XL on a Toyo 45A in a 12mm recessed lensboard. I added some curved cable release extention thingy so i was able change the cable release easely. The bellows was quite cramped, but i was able to use the full 12mm rise and fall the image circle of this lens allows. Luckely the Toyo boards have more room for setting the controls of the lens, so it was workable.

[rpagliari]

Thanks a lot for the useful information!

With 75mm and 90mm lenses, how much room should I expect for rise and fall movements?

Thank you again,

[Huub]

With a possible 41mm front rise and some more when using indirect rise, it will depend on the image circle of the lens.

[Hmuessig]

I've used Toyo Field Cameras since the late 70's and am on my second - a 45AX. We did a huge amount of HABS/HAER work and other architectural photography. Love the Toyo Field because of its size and ruggedness.

That said the camera, bellows, and lens boards have their limitations for wide-angle lenses below 90 mm. The bellows is flexible to a point -- see below -- and the recessed lens boards are a challenge.

Toyo originally made a 24.8 mm recessed board but this has been discontinued for some time (late 90's maybe??). The currently available recessed board is 12.5 mm. I have a mid '90's catalogue that shows both. The deeper boards are available on eBay and elsewhere as are the newer, shallower boards. There are also clones of the 12.5 mm board.

The challenge with the recessed boards is that it can be difficult to see and set the aperture on a Copal 0 shutter, particularly if the front element is large and especially when you have a center filter on. My 47XL is relatively easy to use on the 12mm board and nearly impossible on the deeper board. The press focus is equally a challenge and the shutter speed ring can be if your fingers are large. I've ended up with a couple of little pokers that I can use to adjust the aperture and a small mirror and flashlight so I can see the scale (bifocals don't help!!). Some folks say that silver reflective tape on the sides of the recessed board helps . . .

All that said, here is the kind of movement I can get with the Toyo and various lenses.

90mm f8 Nikkor (235mm circle) on a 12mm recessed board. 23mm rise (the maximum - though Toyo says 20.5..) with the bed in normal configuration, about 40mm indirectly with base tilts. The lens still has a bit more circle. This lens is difficult to use on the deeper board and the faster 90s are nearly impossible.

65mm f4.5 Grandagon (170mm circle) on a 24mm recessed board. 23mm rise with the bed normal and maybe 36mm indirectly with base tilts -- well beyond the lens' coverage. This lens and a 75mm f6.8 Grandagon are just fine on the deeper boards.

47mm f5.6 Super Angulon XL (166mm circle) on a 12mm recessed board. 15 mm rise . . which exceeds the coverage. Note that in portrait move the bed of the Toyo needs to be dropped or it will be in the field of view. Again, on a deeper board with the center filter this lens is difficult to use.

To get to these the bellows is scrunched to its limit; never had a problem however with that.

The design of the Toyo limits the shifts more significantly than rise and fall. 7mm left or right is not much for architectural work but you can use indirect movements to get more.

We started using a Sinar F2 and a bag bellows long ago and that makes the movements easy . . . though that camera "feels" no way as rigid as the Toyo that has never been a problem. (If you want rigid - and weight - the P's are SOLID!)

Cheers, hope this helps.

[scm]

Another wide angle solution that I hadn't thought until just now of is to have "Universal" bellows made. I had the camera below a while back, and while I didn't have these bellows made, someone did, and I would bet that any of the usual bellow makers would have no problem with just leaving the first several rows of pleats out.

https://stevemidgleyphotography.com/_MG_9662.jpg

[rpagliari]

I'm into landscape and architectural photography, and have found a Toyo 45a at a reasonable price. What are, realistically speaking, the movements I can get with wide angle lenses, such as 75mm, 58mm and 47mm?

[Emmanuel BIGLER]

Hi!

I assume that you are referring to those lenses:

any classical 75 mm wide-angle lens covering ~ 105° - image circle 196 mm
Schneider-Kreuznach 58 XL covering 110° - image circle 166 mm
Schneider-Kreuznach 47 XL covering 120° - image circle 166 mm

Image size for the 4x5" format is 120mm x 94mm.

75 / 105° 58 / 110° 47 / 120°
focal length (mm) 75 58 47
image circle (mm) @f/22 196 166 166
total angle (degrees) 105 110 120

format X (mm) image width X (mm) 94 94 94
format Y (mm) image height Y (mm) 120 120 120

shift / X +- (mm) 30.5 10.3 10.3
shift / Y +- (mm) 26 8.4 8.4

As a conclusion, 58 XL and 47 XL lenses are intended for medium format use (6x9 cm, 6x12 cm..) ; they formally cover the 4x5" format @zero shift, but will allow very little movements.

[Oren Grad]

Emmanuel, the main issue here isn't lens coverage, it's what are the physical limitations of the Toyo 45A camera with short focal lengths - what's the minimum achievable flange distance, and to what extent does bellows compression limit range of movements. IIRC Mamiya America Corporation used to say that the shortest the 45A series could accept was a 58XL on a recessed board. But best to get some input from users of the camera who have actually worked with ultrawides.

[Audii-Dudii]

Emmanuel, the main issue here isn't lens coverage, it's what are the physical limitations of the Toyo 45A camera with short focal lengths - what's the minimum achievable flange distance, and to what extent does bellows compression limit range of movements. IIRC Mamiya America Corporation used to say that the shortest the 45A series could accept was a 58XL on a recessed board. But best to get some input from users of the camera who have actually worked with ultrawides.

With regard to "minimum achievable flange distance," don't forget that Toyo once sold a 24 mm recessed lens board for this camera in addition to the 12 mm recessed lens board, so there is potentially some wiggle room available here as regards the minimum acceptable FFD measurement.

Alas, Toyo long ago discontinued sales of the 24 mm recessed lens board, so the only source for them today is the secondhand market and while they do turn up now and then, they have become fairly scarce.

Of course, if you're handy and have the appropriate resources to call upon, it's possible to modify the 12 mm recessed to increase the amount of its recess or even to fabricate a complete recessed lens board from scratch.

[Oren Grad]

With regard to "minimum achievable flange distance," don't forget that Toyo once sold a 24 mm recessed lens board for this camera in addition to the 12 mm recessed lens board, so there is potentially some wiggle room available here as regards the minimum acceptable FFD measurement.

Good point. In that scenario, I'd also have questions about what it's like to use the controls on the lens with such a deep recess of a smallish board, and how short a FL can be used without getting the camera bed in the picture.

[Audii-Dudii]

Good point. In that scenario, I'd also have questions about what it's like to use the controls on the lens with such a deep recess of a smallish board, and how short a FL can be used without getting the camera bed in the picture.

Your point about the potential difficulty of operating a lens mounted on a deeply recessed lens board is probably the reason why Toyo also sold an angle adapter that allowed the shutter cable to operate at a forward pointing angle to the lens instead of sticking straight out of the shutter.

I know I wouldn't have been able to operate several of my wide-angle lenses on the 24mm recessed lens board without it!

As to your third point, I always used Toyo's studio series of cameras (and when using really wide lenses, also medium-format roll film instead of sheet film, so I was working within a reduced size image circle and never had to worry about the camera bed intruding on my compositions), so this was never an issue regardless of how wide a lens I used. Due to my complete lack of experience using a 45A, I have no idea what the practical limits are for it, hence the reason I didn't comment on that...

[rpagliari]

When using a 75mm lens, how much would I get of raise/fall, and how many mm recessed board?

[Oren Grad]

OK, I see that we went through this back in February with 45AII in the thread title.

I'm going to merge the threads. Post #15 above has the critical information. AFAIK the 45A, 45AII and 45AX should be no different as far as usability with ultrawides; if anyone knows otherwise, by all means please post.

[schafphoto]

One thing to keep in mind (for people finding this thread in the future) is that wide angle lenses are very unforgiving from an alignment and focus standpoint; less than 1mm makes a difference. As has been discussed here, when the bellows is pushed all the way into the body and shifts or rise/fall are attempted, the bellows becomes the limiting factor because it is pinched/bunched against itself or pushed against the concave body of the camera. The concave box shape of field cameras is great for protection and travel, but in real-world use with a very wide lens (with or without a recessed lens board) the bellows stress or pressure can move the front standard out of parallel. (this is true for Wista, Linhof, Horseman, etc. field cams as well, since they all have their front standards connected to the folding bed).

196818

For my HABS/HAER/HALS work I tried a Toyo CF for travel for a couple of jobs in Guam and Idaho that required airline travel. Since HABS/HAER requires perspective correction and parallel standards. The intended parallelism/alignment of the lens board (front standard) and GG was fine when no movements were attempted or the bellows was extended, but with a 90mm or 72mm XL, if significant movements were attempted, the front standard would "lean" away or toward the camera due to all those bellows folds being pushed or pulled out of center. This resulted in a special "re-paralelling" step with a small bubble level on the front element of the lens to keep areas from being pushed out of focus. Side to side shifts were more problematic since even 1mm of "tweek" from parallel would result in unintended focus/alignment changes with no easy way to correct or predict the misalignment with a level. If you have ever tried to focus-align a shifted 72mm XL in the field in a dark hydroelectric powerhouse, you'll know that it is an imperfect science.

One of the reasons why members on this thread have moved to tech or monorail cameras with bag bellows is that there is no resistance, more than enough movement, and you are not fighting to get the standards closer. I am using a Cambo SC with a custom fixed rear standard and bag bellows, as a bonus the Cambo also has large lens boards so the recessed boards are less of a hassle to work in. (Some Linhof field cams have a top door to release the bellows stresses on RISE, I think the Wista does have a bag bellows option that will help with this, and the Walker Titans have a bag bellows and a special recessed board to help with this issue as well.)

196819

I have since sold the Toyo CF and now carry my disassembled Cambo 5x7/4x5 in an under-the-seat, laptop bag/purse. Here are photos of the Cambo upon return from a 5x7 HABS job in Upstate New York at Cornell last week. The laptop bag never left my side, stowed under the seat in front of me, and allowed a full sized carry-on camera bag for the lenses, accessories and digicam. (I FedXed the film)

196820