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imagecom
16-Feb-2019, 06:40
Hello all,

Recently I acquired a copal 3 shutter thinking that it has only one thread mount. Sadly (or not), when I received it, it turns out the
hole is only 55.2mm wide.
Has anyone had an encounter with this size and what is it used for? Can the inner ring be removed (Please see photo)?

Keith Pitman
16-Feb-2019, 06:50
A 3S? The front and rear threads would be M56-.75.

imagecom
16-Feb-2019, 07:05
Thank you for a quick reply. It looks that this is even smaller. it's 52.5mm if I am measuring right, but definitely not 56mm, I can't be wrong by that much.

Leigh
16-Feb-2019, 07:22
Thank you for a quick reply. It looks that this is even smaller. it's 52.5mm if I am measuring right, but definitely not 56mm, I can't be wrong by that much.
Threads are defined by the outside diameter of the male thread.

If you measure the internal diameter of the female thread, you must add twice the thread depth.

- Leigh

imagecom
16-Feb-2019, 07:40
I know, Leigh, but I was stupid not to ask the diameter size before I bought it, assuming that copal 3 is a copal 3 (M62-0.75, if I'm right).
My question was, now that the damage has been done, can I remove that ring with red dot as threadlocker and end up with an usable thing or will the springs start flying at me if I do that?
Thanks once more.

Dan Fromm
16-Feb-2019, 07:46
Springs won't fly if you remove the face plate, but the tube won't come with it.

Here's the stupid question of the day: is the front tube threaded internally? I ask because I have a Seiko shutter with unthreaded front tube in the drawer.

Leigh
16-Feb-2019, 07:56
I know, Leigh, but I was stupid not to ask the diameter size before I bought it, assuming that copal 3 is a copal 3 (M62-0.75, if I'm right).
The external (mounting) thread of the Copal 3 is M61-0.75 per the instruction sheet.

The mounting hole diameter is 64mm + clearance.

- Leigh

Keith Pitman
16-Feb-2019, 09:27
Meanwhile, back at the original posterís question . . .

Imagecom: Youíve given two different measurements: 55.2mm and 52.5mm. Which is it? And, as someone pointed out, the thread diameter is measured from the bottom of the thread. From where are you making your measurement? I still think you have a 3S.

pgk
16-Feb-2019, 11:24
I have a 58mm (M58 x 0.75mm) filter cap screwed into the back of my Copal 3 shutter to protect the shutter blades .....

B.S.Kumar
16-Feb-2019, 17:05
Back to the OP.

I've encountered similar issues, in one case with a modern black Copal 3 shutter. The aperture scale started from f/6.7, and I found out that it was for a Fujinon 250mm f/6.7 lens. I have another Copal 3 or 3S shutter (I forget which), that has the standard thread on the rear, but the front is not the corresponding thread.

Kumar

Greg
16-Feb-2019, 17:40
Back to the OP.

I've encountered similar issues, in one case with a modern black Copal 3 shutter. The aperture scale started from f/6.7, and I found out that it was for a Fujinon 250mm f/6.7 lens. I have another Copal 3 or 3S shutter (I forget which), that has the standard thread on the rear, but the front is not the corresponding thread.

Kumar

dito on this end... once bought a #3 Copal shutter with no f/stop scale that had different from standard/normal threads at both ends :-(

Paul Ewins
16-Feb-2019, 17:45
It would certainly appear to be a Copal 3s which had a M56-0.75 internal thread (vs M58-0.75 for regular Copal 3). This is just fractionally larger than the Compound 3 (55.69 x 40 tpi) which would allow manufacturers to continue on with current designs meant for the Compound 3 (which was discontinued in the late 1960s) without the need to design thicker barrels to accomodate a regular Copal 3.

Leszek Vogt
17-Feb-2019, 02:02
Haven't seen albino Copal #3 before. But, I can attest that there is something really screwy with the #3 shutter (in general)....and even SK Grimes mentions that, even if everything indicates "X" is correct, the thread may still not fit. My black Copal #3 would not fit anything standard (rear flange ring), so I ordered a different one from bay and was disappointed again. Had my machinist create one and put an end to this fiasco. Not sure what gives.

Les

Per Madsen
17-Feb-2019, 02:48
Haven't seen albino Copal #3 before. But, I can attest that there is something really screwy with the #3 shutter (in general)....and even SK Grimes mentions that, even if everything indicates "X" is correct, the thread may still not fit. My black Copal #3 would not fit anything standard (rear flange ring), so I ordered a different one from bay and was disappointed again. Had my machinist create one and put an end to this fiasco. Not sure what gives.

Les

It looks like a Copal #3S made to look like the Supermatic shutter design.

tonyowen
17-Feb-2019, 03:04
Just to add another fact. Many items related to optics come with their own peculiar threads. For instance, (relatively) large diameter with fine thread pitches. The thread shape will/can be used to identify a thread type - whitworth, metric, unc etc - But any thread [x diameter y pitch z tpi] used for a particular item/purpose is the correct thread for that application. The other complication is where an imperial thread is identical to a metric thread - eg some BA threads are interchangeable with small metric thread.

Then there are unique thread forms such as pipe, gas, cycle, ad infinitum.

To answer the OP's query, unless there has been an obvious alteration then whatever you have is correct for that item and has to be accommodated.

The arguments about engineers being confused over conversion between metric and imperial dimensions is not relevant and in any case is possible a myth.

regards
Tony

imagecom
17-Feb-2019, 12:49
Haven't seen albino Copal #3 before. But, I can attest that there is something really screwy with the #3 shutter (in general)....and even SK Grimes mentions that, even if everything indicates "X" is correct, the thread may still not fit. My black Copal #3 would not fit anything standard (rear flange ring), so I ordered a different one from bay and was disappointed again. Had my machinist create one and put an end to this fiasco. Not sure what gives.

Les

Leszek,
Thank you for your contribution to the thread. I has gone astray, for sure. I am the original poster and my basic question was, now that I don't know
which lens it belonged to, if I will be able to somehow mount my 300mm Symmar on it, since the original Copal 3 that is on it is busted. Even if I have to find a machinist to make a new thread somehow?

I was thinking that by getting a Copal 3, it would just be a matter of unscrewing a front and rear lens group, and screwing it into the newly acquired shutter. Apparently not. Any suggestions?
Thanks

imagecom
17-Feb-2019, 13:08
Hello,
As an original poster, I am trying to get this thread back on its track.
I measured inside diameter on both sides. Now, I am not an engineer, and what I got on my digital caliper was 55.06mm on both sides.
Posting photos again, couldn't do it with caliper in position because I don't have 3 hands, just two, and one is needed to hold the camera.
This means I am way below the standard Copal 3 size. Any ideas what can be done so that I can mount my Symmar 300mm on it, which has a busted shutter?

Tin Can
17-Feb-2019, 13:17
You asked

Money always works

Try another shutter

Try a friends shutter

Tell us where u r?

Bob Salomon
17-Feb-2019, 13:20
Hello,
As an original poster, I am trying to get this thread back on its track.
I measured inside diameter on both sides. Now, I am not an engineer, and what I got on my digital caliper was 55.06mm on both sides.
Posting photos again, couldn't do it with caliper in position because I don't have 3 hands, just two, and one is needed to hold the camera.
This means I am way below the standard Copal 3 size. Any ideas what can be done so that I can mount my Symmar 300mm on it, which has a busted shutter?

If it were me I would sell it and buy a modern, black version!

imagecom
17-Feb-2019, 15:09
If it were me I would sell it and buy a modern, black version!

Thank you for the suggestion. That would be the easiest way. However, it is not helping.

Bob Salomon
17-Feb-2019, 15:32
Thank you for the suggestion. That would be the easiest way. However, it is not helping.

Why not? You will have to pay more to get your lens properly mounted into it and then figure out the aperture scales for your lens.

Oren Grad
17-Feb-2019, 18:59
I've deleted the entire pi**ing contest about thread specifications, with apologies for not having been able to get to it sooner.

Tin Can
17-Feb-2019, 19:12
Let's try this

I have a few Copal 3 in Southern IL

Come over

Oren Grad
17-Feb-2019, 19:15
Getting back to the OP's question: I have a shutter exactly like it, including the same aperture scale. The lens that's mounted in it is a 25cm f/4.7 Fujinar-SC. The threaded ring that holds the front cell sure looks like an insert on mine, though I can't budge it and don't want to risk damaging the shutter by trying anything drastic. You might try consulting a repair technician who's experienced with LF lens shutters - perhaps the ring can in fact be removed without doing damage to the shutter, though there would still be the question of whether the shutter-without-ring will be a proper fit to your 300 Symmar cells.

JimL
17-Feb-2019, 19:48
It's a Copal 3S - I also have one (slightly different aperture) and it houses my Graphic Kowa 240...