View Full Version : Calling on all owners of Hypergon lenses...or those with knowledge/experience of them
I am hoping I can get some direct measurements and information from anyone who happens to own a Hypergon lens, of any focal length! Also, paging Nodda Duma...or anyone else with lens design / manufacturing expertise.
I have acquired a batch of optical elements which the seller claims to be Hypergon lens elements. These are extremely curved elements that certainly look the part. I took a gamble on these because it seems possible, and I have 3 sets.
I would love to have some direct measurement of Hypergon elements from owners, that could perhaps point me in the right direction as to what focal length these would be for and/or other information that might help me nail down what I've got - for example, what is the separation between elements for a given focal length? Is the design simply enlarged for each size up?
I know that mounting/making these into actual lenses will not be easy or cheap but I am hoping I can somehow, and then get 3 more lenses out into the wild. Well, 2 anyway, as I'll keep one!
Here's some photos that the seller posted. Note the number written on the element. The elements themselves are about an inch and a half wide - quite large really, which makes me wonder if it's one of the longer focal lengths.
http://www.garrisaudiovisual.com/photosharing/hypergonelements1.jpg
http://www.garrisaudiovisual.com/photosharing/hypergonelements2.jpg
Thanks!
I am hoping I can get some direct measurements and information from anyone who happens to own a Hypergon lens, of any focal length!
- for example, what is the separation between elements for a given focal length? Is the design simply enlarged for each size up?
Thanks!
Wow! And somehow you think that someone who owns a Hypergon lens will take it apart to measure the separation between elements and tell you that?
Continue to dream! Good luck!
Pfsor, please refrain from commenting unless you have something helpful to add to the discussion. Thanks!
Pfsor, please refrain from commenting unless you have something helpful to add to the discussion. Thanks!
Isn't it helpful to say that you're out of reality with your expectations? Then continue to dream.
What precision would you like to encounter in the measurements? Would it be enough with some mm decimals? Once again - good luck!
Jason Greenberg Motamedi
13-Feb-2019, 18:52
Corran, as a last case scenario I have used patent application drawings to calculate lens spacing. It takes a bit of doing, as well as (perhaps foolish) hope that the patent illustrations reflect the reality, but it worked for me.
Jason, that's exactly what I was looking for - perhaps someone has or knows of a resource that shows technical drawings. You never know. Thanks for a helpful response.
Corran, as a last case scenario I have used patent application drawings to calculate lens spacing. It takes a bit of doing, as well as (perhaps foolish) hope that the patent illustrations reflect the reality, but it worked for me.
As far as I know, the patent application drawings explain a technical concept not a real technical product in its manufacturing measures. Don't fool yourself. The measures in a patent application are illustrative elements, not manufacturing details, have no doubt about it. In other words - a patent application is not a manufacturing blue print for the final product.
Sure, you can play with the distances and hope for a good result. That's why I wish good luck to him.
Dan Fromm
13-Feb-2019, 19:33
As far as I know, the patent application drawings explain a technical concept not a real technical product in its manufacturing measures. Don't fool yourself. The measures in a patent application are illustrative elements, not manufacturing details, have no doubt about it. In other words - a patent application is not a manufacturing blue print for the final product.
Sure, you can play with the distances and hope for a good result. That's why I wish good luck to him.
Visit dioptrique.info. It uses lens prescriptions, mainly from patents, in a ray-tracing program to calculate the lenses' performance. The prescriptions include all radii, spacings, the elements' thicknesses, the glasses refractive indices and dispersions, ... Prescriptions are the starting point for mechanical design needed to make tubes to hold the lens elements.
Not to give anything away, but those little domes aren't Hypergon elements.
Visit dioptrique.info. It uses lens prescriptions, mainly from patents, in a ray-tracing program to calculate the lenses' performance. The prescriptions include all radii, spacings, the elements' thicknesses, the glasses refractive indices and dispersions, ... Prescriptions are the starting point for mechanical design needed to make tubes to hold the lens elements.
Not to give anything away, but those little domes aren't Hypergon elements.
Yeah, let him calculate it. With or without a program. A great idea.
Thanks to Dan for helping via PM with some information and testing idea.
Yes, it appears that these are not plain Hypergon elements as hoped. I also have a measurement for one Hypergon focal length now from a private party and these are massive comparatively.
Now trying to figure out what they are. Included in the lot were some plano-convex elements that perhaps were part of the lens in question. I was hoping they were just extra bits. Thanks for the continued helpful posts by Dan.
Thanks to Dan for helping via PM with some information and testing idea.
Yes, it appears that these are not plain Hypergon elements as hoped. I also have a measurement for one Hypergon focal length now from a private party and these are massive comparatively.
Now trying to figure out what they are. Included in the lot were some plano-convex elements that perhaps were part of the lens in question. I was hoping they were just extra bits. Thanks for the continued helpful posts by Dan.
Good luck in creating a new Hypergon lens with the help of the forum! Let us know when the first specimen will be in your production!
Take the hint
You take it, you need it. Just let us know when the Hypergon 21st. century is out and real. Good luck!
You are the most unhelpful member of this forum. Please go bother someone else.
More likely old Metrogons...
Steve K
You are the most unhelpful member of this forum. Please go bother someone else.
Never mind, maybe you will help us to build a Hypergon lens from your elements, would be exiting. Please share your knowledge with the rest of us, not so talented.
More likely old Metrogons...
Steve K
I was thinking this as well at first. I have a 6" Metrogon and these lens elements are a bit smaller. The cross-section of the Metrogon also doesn't match the plano-convex lens, but it's possible that the seller is incorrect that these are related to each other.
Mark Sampson
13-Feb-2019, 21:10
Well, perhaps you can make a lens that can focus an image from them. Even if it's not a Hypergon or Metrogon, or any kind of Holy Grail-ogon, you might make something useful (or at least interesting). As Fred Picker used to write, "TRY IT". Even if they don't work, you had a bit of fun and learned something.
"TRY IT"
Exactly. Thanks Mark. Sometime soon I'll try to rig something up to put 4 lenses into a PVC tube or something, to get an idea of the viability of making something.
Emmanuel BIGLER
14-Feb-2019, 07:34
Hi!
It is easy to make a simulation of the Hypergon design, since it is a 2-element lens, perfectly symmetrical, made of two deeply curved positive meniscii, aperture stop at the center of the lens.
To be used stopped down to f/20 due to a strong spherical aberration.
Moreover the lens suffers from longitudinal chromatic aberration as well : the best focus shifts by about 2.5 mm from blue light to red light.
Data can be found here in this invaluable textbook
Warren Smith
Modern Lens Design 2nd edition
chapter eleven page 298
ISBN 0-07-143830-0
SPIE Press McGraw Hill 2005
For a 100 mm focal length, W. Smith's prescription for the Hypergon reads as follows
1st meniscus : glass = Schott BK1 - radius 1 = 8.57 mm - thickness 2.2 mm - radius 2 = 8.63 mm
surf 2 to surf 3 aperture stop = 6.9 mm
aperture stop to surf 4 = 6.9 mm
2nd meniscus : glass = Schott BK1 - radius 4 = -8.63 mm - thickness 2.2 mm - radius 5 = - 8.57 mm
The distance between both meniscii is critical to properly manage astigmatism.
For another focal length, scale all dimensions by the ratio of the required focal length / 100.
Click here to get a downloadable pdf document with some simulations (http://bigler.blog.free.fr/public/docs-en-pdf/2019-02-14-hypergon-100mm-f-20-lens-diagram-and-MTF.pdf) made with the freely available software oslo-edu.
More info on oslo-edu here: https://oslo-edu.software.informer.com/6.6/
- a drawing of the lens with ray tracing up to 120° of field angle (2x60°)
- a set of MTF curves at the best point of focus, object at infinity, on-axis, at 102° (2X51°) and at 120° (2x60°) of field angle.
The performance of the Hypergon is of course modest and not very attractive by nowadays standards, but for such a simple design, it is amazing.
The MTF curves for 102° (2x51°) and 120° (2x60°) show a very strong separation between sagittal and meridional curves, this is always the case even with modern WA lenses, but the effect is very obvious in the Hypergon.
The distorsion of this lens is incredibly low, below 0.03% at 120° of field angle.
The natural vignetting is severe, but not much worse than could be expected from a simple model in cos^4(theta).
See in this lecture material by Prof. Gross, university of Iena, a simulation of vignetting for the hypergon, page 14/29 of the pdf document.
https://www.iap.uni-jena.de/iapmedia/de/Lecture/Lens+Design+II1456786800/LDII15_Lens+Design+II+_+8+Special+correction+topics+I.pdf
Tin Can
14-Feb-2019, 08:38
An amazing depth of data!
I think Bryan can carry on now!
Thank you Emmanuel!
Jac@stafford.net
14-Feb-2019, 09:15
[...] it appears that these are not plain Hypergon elements as hoped. I also have a measurement for one Hypergon focal length now from a private party and these are massive comparatively.
Keyword to keep in mind during your research: sky camera.
Thank you for the wealth of information Emmanuel.
I have heard of someone in the far east remaking Hypergons by hand. I wonder if it is true? And didn't Wisner plan on coming out with modern Hypergons?
These are apparently not, and yes Jac that is a good observation. Are you aware of a lens design with 4 elements, the outer of which are these extreme curved elements, the inner more simple plano-convex? I have been searching various texts and have not come upon anything.
Mark Sampson
14-Feb-2019, 09:58
Ron Wisner announced several things that never actually happened, like his 4x5 SLR. Would have been nice if he'd been able to come through.
(On a slightly related note, I wonder how many of his casket lens sets were produced and sold.)
Corran, best of luck in your endeavor.
Emmanuel BIGLER
14-Feb-2019, 10:16
Hello everybody!
From Randy Moe
An amazing depth of data!
Hi Randy. The data can be found in Warren Smith's book, a very thick and not really easy to read technical book for engineers. And is is not really a cheap book, but may be it can be found at a reasonable price as a used item today.
Not all lens designs can be handled by OSLO-EDU, due to the limited features of the free version of this professional software, but the Hypergon is something very easy for OSLO-EDU, only txo elements. It is quick and easy to manually enter data into the software from old-style documents printed on paper e.g. printed versions of old patents now accessible for free at google-patents for example.
I ran the above simulation on a 20 year old PC machine, simulation results are displayed within a fraction of a second. Very amazing indeed ;)
My opinion is that the Hypergon is a fascinating object as a collector's item. A masterpiece of optical engineering of the past. But I do not think it is a really desirable nor actually a useable lens for the hobbyist of the XXI-st century!
From Corran:
Are you aware of a lens design with 4 elements, the outer of which are these extreme curved elements, the inner more simple plano-convex?
Well, while typesetting this message, I do not have W. Smith's book handy, the next step in historical ultra-wide angle lenses (100° and more) following the Görz Hypergon is the Zeiss Topogon (Robert Richter, 1933, US patent 2,031,792) described on page 300 of W. Smith's book, but in the Topogon design the very thin menisci are negative elements, they and are located inside the lens, behind thick positive outer menisci. So exactly the contrary of what you are thinking about.
But as soon as I have W. Smith's book handy, I'll have look and see if something is mentioned corresponding to your question.
Thanks Emmanuel. Yes, I considered the Topogon but as you say the design does not seem to match.
My opinion is that the Hypergon is a fascinating object as a collector's item. A masterpiece of optical engineering of the past. But I do not think it is a really desirable nor actually a useable lens for the hobbyist of the XXI-st century!
Well, yes and no. As I've never used one, I can't say for certain, but my understanding is that the 75mm and 90mm versions cover 8x10, something no modern lens can do in that focal length. The 90mm XL, which I own, just barely misses the corners on 8x10. It would work for whole-plate. Of course the image quality of the Hypergon may be far less than a modern lens, but I think that's okay considering the amazing coverage, especially in conjunction with the spinning star fan to correct for fall-off. The 150mm version would apparently work and cover my 8x20 camera which would be an amazing lens to use, assuming I could get the thing to work without showing the front bed in the frame! So I am interested in the Hypergon to use, not as a collector. But today the scarcity of them and collector value has clearly put the price into the stratosphere.
I haven't had a chance, but for my 8x20 I am at some point going to try a pinhole at the 150mm focal length to see what kind of image I could get from a lens-less camera. I imagine the Hypergon should at least be a little better performance than that :).
Tin Can
14-Feb-2019, 10:33
Found the book as Print on Demand for $110 and Good used for $16, both from Abes. (https://www.abebooks.com/?&cm_mmc=ggl-_-COM_US_Brand-_-naa-_-1t1naa&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIlICH2uC74AIVA9bACh0P1g1PEAAYASAAEgIkFvD_BwE)
I ordered the used one, but it may be beyond my skill level.
Thanks for the tip!
EdSawyer
14-Feb-2019, 10:36
Looks ex-military or at least ex-aerial mapping/surveillance. Seems most like parts of a Planigon, (sort of like a metrogon) but hard to say. Do they form an image if two are put together?
It's possible they are just windows of some type, though they seem small for that purpose, and do have an optical coating so that seems unlikely.
good luck
-Ed
EdSawyer
14-Feb-2019, 10:39
Let's post the auction too, since that might help:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Goerz-AM-Optical-Wide-Angle-Lens-Elements-Possibly-Hypergon-or-Ultragon-Cells-/254104314057
Tin Can
14-Feb-2019, 10:45
Here is a Hypergon Image with many details and source materials.
http://www.glennview.com/note1.htm
I had forgot about my friend Glenn...
Yes Ed you've found the sale. One large curved element and one of the smaller elements do create an image. Will have to try assembling four elements into a barrel of some sort.
Just picked up a copy of Warren Smith's book on eBay. Should have kept on looking... now there's a copy to be had for $6.29!!!
Tin Can
14-Feb-2019, 11:25
Abbie Hoffman wrote/said, Steal This Book and it was his book!
I see copies for 99 cents and $100 at Abes!
I have never stolen a book...
Just picked up a copy of Warren Smith's book on eBay. Should have kept on looking... now there's a copy to be had for $6.29!!!
Dan Fromm
14-Feb-2019, 11:49
Yes Ed you've found the sale. One large curved element and one of the smaller elements do create an image. Will have to try assembling four elements into a barrel of some sort.
Bryan, you were had.
EdSawyer
14-Feb-2019, 14:55
at the very least, it will be an interesting experiment. Goerz did make some of those military wide-angle lenses, so it's at least plausible. Price-wise it's not a huge loss if they don't turn out to be all that useful. I've bought more expensive paperweight lenses than that.
Louis Pacilla
14-Feb-2019, 15:47
Price-wise it's not a huge loss if they don't turn out to be all that useful. I've bought more expensive paperweight lenses than that.
Me too Ed. Me too.:confused:
Bryan, you were had.
As I always tell those wary of eBay - you can always do a return. Regardless of stated policy. We'll see.
at the very least, it will be an interesting experiment. Goerz did make some of those military wide-angle lenses, so it's at least plausible. Price-wise it's not a huge loss if they don't turn out to be all that useful. I've bought more expensive paperweight lenses than that.
Here's mine. Front and rear glass diameter 2.5". Looks like it throws a 100 degree plus image. Can't wait to hot glue it on a black Foamcore lens board and put it on my 11x14. Attached image makes the front element look a lot flatter than it really is. Can't put down the optic face up or face down cause it will be resting on the glass. Was told by the seller that the optic was US Govt. surplus, but I think it's just from a common overhead projector. What the heck though, the postage was more than the purchase price...
EdSawyer
15-Feb-2019, 07:30
I have a nice Military 300mm f/4 lens that came in a gigantic shutter, that I need to build a barrel mount for the cells. It should cover 9x9 at least, from what I could tell, it's a 6/4 construction, looks pretty symmetrical. The shutter is an amazing piece of work (Fairchild Night Shutter I think it is), with built in electric motors for charging and firing it, plus an aperture too. but it's just too enormous to use. But, the whole thing was only $40, and in mint condition. Someday I will get around to mounting the lens cells to see what it can do.
-Ed
Mark Sawyer
15-Feb-2019, 13:13
Looks ex-military or at least ex-aerial mapping/surveillance. Seems most like parts of a Planigon, (sort of like a metrogon) but hard to say. Do they form an image if two are put together?
That would be my guess too. Below are a couple photos of my Goerz Planigon and a front element from a Metrogon. I measured the lens diameter to be about 1 7/8 inches, and you can see the curvature in the first photo.
I'd say set up a crude optical bench or mount system, and just see what they do, which sounds like your plan anyways.
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