recommended 4x5 or 5x7 for portrait project?

[Ben Haning]

Hello. I'm just getting started with large format. I have lots of 35mm and some medium format experience, but I want to try an all analog project photographing portraits of friends, coworkers and relatives. I plan on using black and white print film or color transparency film. I know 5x7 transparency film is probably not an option. The finished product would be a contact print or transparency since I don't have room for an enlarger at this time. Would a vintage 5x7 with an additional 4x5 back be a good set up to do this kind of project? I've seen some old Ansco and Kodak 5x7 cameras on the bay that might be suitable. What do you all recommend?

[ic-racer]

Film, processing, cameras, lenses, etc., for 8x10 are probably not much more expensive than the same for 5x7. So, if you are not going to enlarge, you might consider 8x10 over 5x7.

[Bernice Loui]

Color transparency film for 5x7 can be made by cutting down 8x10 color transparency film. This is NOT difficult to do.

As for 8x10 -vs- 5x7, 8x10 does make nice contact prints and results in the common 8x10 portrait size. Difficulty is dealing with 8x10 from camera to lens choices (suddenly limited and $ with 8x10) to camera support to processing of film and all post image exposure processing to print.

There is a LOT of current obsession with 8x10 being the "ultimate film format" in reality, there are many real world problems with 8x10. This is not to say 8x10 is not worth while, it is a matter of trade offs.

As for portrait project suggestions, most any individual or individuals who are willing to sit for you will do great. One can do street portraits from urban to country folks to industry workers to tech folks to street performers and most any location or event that involves humanity.

Think it would be more important to connect with your work with passion as this tends to motivate and bring our your way of sharing your perception of humanity and places they conduct their life.


:)
Bernice

[jnantz]

Hello Ben Haning
Sounds like a lot of fun. I'd skip 4x5 and 8x10 and get something like a Rembrandt Portrait Camera with a split 5x7 back ( there is one for sale on the yard sale right now ). 5x7 and split 5x7 ( 4x5 ) are ideal formats for portraits, and the lenses can be similar if not the same as 4x5. They have a packard shutter too, so if you want to use an inexpensive barrel lens ( without a shutter ) you won't have trouble. Good luck getting the film processed if you go the ChromeRoute, you might have to file for Chapter 11 after you get it all processed !

Good Luck !

[Two23]

I would skip 4x5 for this and use 5x7. You could find a 5x7 & 8x10 combo. If you are funding all this you should first look at prices of 8x10 color film and processing. $$


Kent in SD

[Greg Y]

As a 5x7" user, i'll say that properly matted & framed 4x5 contact prints are a thing of beauty. Also if you're thinking head & shoulder portraits, the aspect ratio of 4x5 is a good fit, while a vertical 5x7 can be on the long side.

[Peter De Smidt]

You have to decide what size prints you want to make, whether by contact printing, traditional optical enlarging, or by scanning. If you're only going to contact print, then desired print size is the biggest factor. You also need to decide what kind of portraits: Group, environmental, full body, head shot.....As one gets to a tighter framing, one needs longer lenses to stay far enough away from the subject to avoid shape distorting, with elements, such as noses, being enlarged as they get closer to the lens. Unless you're using this distortion to some purpose, you probably want to stay at least 4 feet from your subject. This means using longer lenses with larger formats. The lenses tend to get more expensive, and the large bellows draw can be a problem for stability and general usability. To cut to the chase, headshots with a 4x5 will likely be easier to manage than with a bigger camera. 4x5 cameras are also cheaper, generally, and there are more film choices.

Photographing with LF is quite different than other formats. If you have the money and time, sure you can dive in an get very expensive equipment, like an 8x10 Gowlandflex. But another option is to use something like a Crown Graphic, which are cheap, sturdy, pretty easy to use. You can do terrific work with one. If you decide that LF portraiture is not for you, you could sell it for little or no loss. After you put in a lot of practice, you will learn things about what might make your process better. With that knowledge, you can then investigate other options with some knowledge.

[Bernice Loui]

If this is your first endeavor into sheet film, suggest starting at 4x5 and not any larger as there is a steep learning curve with using any sheet film camera. There will be many mistakes made, much film wasted and more. This sheet film stuff is different from other film cameras and digital. While there are many basic artistic skills and creative process that are identical, it is the mechanics and techniques that make using a sheet film camera different than other cameras film or digital.

There are many very good reasons to begin this journey at 4x5, from camera availability, lenses, film, ease of processing, lower overall cost and more.


Bernice





Hello. I'm just getting started with large format. I have lots of 35mm and some medium format experience, but I want to try an all analog project photographing portraits of friends, coworkers and relatives.

[Pere Casals]

I know 5x7 transparency film is probably not an option.

You always can cut 5x7 from 8x10, you cut a 1" strip then you have 7x10", then you cut it in two halves so you have two 5x7 sheets. It requires some practice in the dark, and some tooling, but no high technology required.

Anyway, better to start with 4x5...

[Leszek Vogt]

My, suggestion is to test, test, test and test some more. Arrive with reliable standard and you can use 4x5 or 5x7....24/7. Paying attention to detail is important.
Enjoy the upside down world.

Les

[Jim Jones]

4x5 contact prints are rather small by today's standards, but 4x5 negatives or transparencies may prove more useful to you in the future. If your subjects want larger prints, the smaller negatives or transparencies can be scanned, and you or the subject can have them duplicated or printed in whatever size is desired. Also, the digital images can be spread among friends and relatives more easily than the prints. 4x5 cameras, lenses, and film holders are plentiful and fairly inexpensive. If you eventually have darkroom space for an enlarger, 4x5 enlargers are more practical than larger sizes.

[John Kasaian]

5x7 B&W is certainly an option. Many old wooden 4x5 cameras share the same body as 5x7 cameras so depending on what you find, all you may need is a second back to cover both formats.
A Rembrandt, as another poster suggested, is made for portraiture and show up from time to time.
Affordable 5x7 film holders are a bit of a hassle to find, but they are out there.
Have fun!

[Greg]

Since you don't have an enlarger, I'd go for shooting Whole Plate (6.5x8.5"). For me it is the smallest format that I contact print. They come up FS every now and then and for very reasonable prices, I think mainly because so few people use this format so the demand is low. Film can be special ordered from Ilford come the spring, or you can cut X-Ray film under a red safelight in the meantime. Holders for this format I've seen going for less that 5x7s. As for the ideal lens focal length, maybe someone else can join in... I don't shoot portraits, but I've always yearned to acquire a 10" or 14" Burke & James REMBRANT SUPER-PORTRAIT lens. From my B&J catalog: "Modified Darlot-Petzval Formula" I've seen them go for way less than vintage brass Petzval optics with a name brand.

[jp]

5x7 is great for a 4x5 camera that also does 5x7. Transparency isn't that great for portraits as it tends to be higher contrast and not made for skin tones. B&W can be awesome. I suppose anything is possible with perfect exposure and gentle illumination. A 250mm-ish tessar will be great for portraits on 4x5 or 5x7, look for the 4.5 aperture. Something 1960's or newer with X sync will let you use electronics flash. I'd suggest a Fujinar 25cm in shutter or a xenar 240mm. Triplets are great too but are often without shutter.

[Vaughn]

I think your idea of finding a 5x7 camera with a 5x7 back and a 4x5 reducing back is right on. I found the step up to 4x5 to 5x7 to be a minor one, but the next jump to 8x10 is major. Big jump in equipment size and portability and also in space needed for processing negatives, etc.

It will be a great way to test the waters. If you get a decent deal, you should be able to re-sell it with no or little loss if you want to upgrade for specialty work or go a different direction.
Learning the basics with 4x5, with the option to step up to 5x7 at any time sounds like a plan. If you can find a camera with front tilt, so much the better, but I have been using a 100+ year-old 5x7 Eastman View No.2 a bunch lately and it works.

[Ben Haning]

Thanks for all the advice. We have a collection of portraits of various sizes on display in our house from 3x5 to 11x14. The most pleasing size to my taste are the 5x7 size. I see the advantages of 4x5 for portability, more available lenses, more film stocks, lower cost etc. I may end up getting both 4x5 and 5x7. I may start with a crown graphic or busch pressman and see if I can find a decent 5x7 later. I'll be watching the for sale ads, KEH and the bay to see what is available in good condition. Thanks for your help.

[Bernice Loui]

Might consider a monorail with interchangeable parts like a Sinar Norma which can be easily format changed by sliding off the rear standard and bellows for the format of interest which can be 4x5, 5x7, 8x10 or roll film with the 4x5 back. Add to this no real limits on bellows draw, very short focal length lenses can be used with not too much difficult, Sinar shutter, a variety of lens shades and filter holders compatibility over most of the Sinar system old and new. Sinar P is really a studio camera, the Norma works for both semi-outdoor or studio similar applies to the Sinar F and Sinar Alpine which is 4x5 only.

As for lens choices, 5x7 is equal if not in some ways better than 4x5. Some lens shopping, study and research will prove this to be true.
Beyond camera and lens and film which is really only the starting point, consider film processing, processed film storage, how prints will be made and finished.


One notable portrait photographer who used 5x7 and Kodak Ektar lenses almost exclusively for portrait work is Phillip Stewart Charis.
http://www.phillipstewartcharis.com/home.html



:)
Bernice





Thanks for all the advice. We have a collection of portraits of various sizes on display in our house from 3x5 to 11x14. The most pleasing size to my taste are the 5x7 size. I see the advantages of 4x5 for portability, more available lenses, more film stocks, lower cost etc. I may end up getting both 4x5 and 5x7. I may start with a crown graphic or busch pressman and see if I can find a decent 5x7 later. I'll be watching the for sale ads, KEH and the bay to see what is available in good condition. Thanks for your help.

[Ben Haning]

I thought I'd give you all a quick update. I posted a WTB ad here on the forum and got a good deal on nice gray Ansco 5x7 with 5x7 and 4x5 backs. The lens is a 210mm/310mm f5.6/f12 Steinheil Quinon in a Ilex Universal #4 shutter. I can't wait to get out and try it out. Thanks for the advice.

[Leszek Vogt]

I was thinking exactly of that while thumbing through this thread. Yes, wow, 5x7 + 4x5 back.....very cool. Good luck.

Les

[Mark Crabtree]

Great news. The 210 will be dandy for 4x5 and you should be able to turn up something inexpensive in the 240 to 300 range for 5x7 portraits. The Ansco is nothing fancy, but everything you need. Much better than spending almost as much for a press camera that you would have needed to upgrade.

[Tin Can]

John makes a very good suggestion. I have used 5X7 sliders with a Packard shutter.

It is the fastest way to shoot 2 LF portraits. One 'trick' is to tell the sitter, get ready I am shooting ONE pic now. Do that, but move the slide quickly pump the Packard air bulb twice and bingo you have captured the usually better facial expression in the second image.

Nothing is faster, in under a second you have 2 images. Works with almost any lighting, strobes, hot lights and window.

Many studio cameras used sliders from 2x3 to 8X10 and few want them now, so they are cheap.



Hello Ben Haning
Sounds like a lot of fun. I'd skip 4x5 and 8x10 and get something like a Rembrandt Portrait Camera with a split 5x7 back ( there is one for sale on the yard sale right now ). 5x7 and split 5x7 ( 4x5 ) are ideal formats for portraits, and the lenses can be similar if not the same as 4x5. They have a packard shutter too, so if you want to use an inexpensive barrel lens ( without a shutter ) you won't have trouble. Good luck getting the film processed if you go the ChromeRoute, you might have to file for Chapter 11 after you get it all processed !

Good Luck !

[Bernice Loui]

Silders are good :)

If an assistant is available to work with the Portraitist, the assistant can operate the camera, slider, film holder dark slide for the Portraitist. This way the Portraitist can focus on working with the Sitter and not be distracted by operating the camera. Ideally, there is a emotional-expressive connection between Sitter and Portraitist to promote a sitter's expression to be retained on film.

Stores of George Hurrell making funny and varied gestures to get the desired expression out of their Hollywood portrait sitters were many. IMO, making that connection between Sitter and Portraitist is core to expressive Portraiture.



Bernice

[DanteALG]

Hi guys! I am also new to the large format. I have only got experience with 35mm. However, I have already started working with some larger formats, and I can tell you that vintage 5x7 with an other 4x5 back is not good at all. Especially the old Ansco is probably the worst for this job. The Kodak is not that bad. However, I cannot call it great. I have started to work with larger formats as I want to create some animal wall art (https://impersonateme.com/collections/animal-wall-art), like pet portraits and some other things. I want to fill my entire house with pet portraits.

[Peter De Smidt]

Hi guys! I am also new to the large format. I have only got experience with 35mm. However, I have already started working with some larger formats, and I can tell you that vintage 5x7 with an additional 4x5 back is not good at all. Especially the old Ansco is probably the worst for this job.

Why?

[Tin Can]

I wish I bought that camera


Hi guys! I am also new to the large format. I have only got experience with 35mm. However, I have already started working with some larger formats, and I can tell you that vintage 5x7 with an additional 4x5 back is not good at all. Especially the old Ansco is probably the worst for this job.

[Drew Bedo]

Hi guys! I am also new to the large format. I have only got experience with 35mm. However, I have already started working with some larger formats, and I can tell you that vintage 5x7 with an additional 4x5 back is not good at all. Especially the old Ansco is probably the worst for this job.

iI can't imagine why. Sure the 5x7 frame is bulkier than you need but if its studio work, bulk or weight shouldn't matter that much. One of my earliest cameras was a 5x7 Burk and James with a 4x5 reducing back. Worked for me. One positive thing about that rig was the extra long bellows extension available compared to a compact 4x5 camera.

Anyway, my preference for portraiture would be an less expensive 8x10. The Kodak 2D cameras have only front rise/fall on the front standard because they were often used as a production portrait camera in a studio. Today they are not overly expensive and work well for portraiture in a studio setting.