Horseman 45FA / Horseman 45HF

[Ig Nacio]

Hi guys,

I am interested in getting into Large Format.

I have seen beautiful pictures of LF 4x5
portraits.

My shooting interests are portraiture, group
portraiture, social life and low-rise architecture.

So, lenses with focal lengths of 240, 135,
75 and 65 mm. (By the way, I would only
start with one lens, the 135 mm. lens and
then a 210 or 240 mm. lens. Over time I
would get the first of the wide angle lenses,
either a 65 or 75 mm. lens. Just out of
curiosity , are there any wider focal lengths
than 65 mm. Which are the most common
ones, in case there are, to the widest of the
spectrum?

I am interested in using film for a project
I have in mind. I think it would be beautiful
to shoot it in LF. The good thing about film
and LF is that with 4x5, one can always keep
both, large 4x5 negatives and scanned copies
of it.

I had seen on e-bay several field cameras.
At first, it my attention got caught by the Wista
cameras being offered. They are beautiful!
Suddenly, Horseman 45FA and the 45HF
caught my attention. They are a bit lighter
and it's ok with me if at this starting phase
I don't do many camera movements.

What do you guys think of this camera choice?
Would you suggest any other camera instead of
this one?

Where would you suggest to buy it? Is e-bay
a good place to buy it, where else would you
recommend to take a look? You have been
here for long and you know what prices are like.
What is a price range I should think of
for a still in good shape camera of
this brand and modell?

Last but not least, some internet offers for this
camera may mention that a bellows change has
been made or one adequation of this sort or
another. When reading, which camera changes
or adequations should be like a warning for not
buying it?

Thank you very much for your time and kind
attention to this post.

Kind regards,

Ignacio

P.S. I forgot to mention that I find very appealing
Ilford HP5 and Kodak Portra 400 for LF photography.
Are any of these two films your to go films? Bergger 400
and Foma 320 look also interesting to me.

[jmontague]

No experience with Horseman cameras but, since your intended subjects are rather static, I would use a slower film. Ilford FP4 or Delta 100, or TMax 100 are good options to consider. While grain is modest in LF, I recommend using film with the best resolution possible. Others here with far more experience than I may feel differently, but it may be worth considering.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[CreationBear]

I'm also new to 4x5 and Horseman cameras, but I've been really enjoying the compactness and build quality of my Horseman HF. A couple of things that might affect your camera/lens choices:

1.) The Horseman HF does not have a rotating back like the FA does, so using it in "portrait orientation" requires you to "flip" the camera. There is a place to mount an extra QR plate on the side, however, and if you can get used to translating what would be "swings" into "tilts," and vice versa, it's certainly usable.

2.) All Horseman technical cameras are a bit limited as to what lenses they will handle. In terms of focal length, I believe 65mm is the lower limit, and you probably will have to drop the bed to keep it out of the frame. On the long end, both the FA and HF have modest bellows draw--I believe the consensus is that 240mm will work, but you will probably want to have a "top-hat" lens board if you plan to focus much closer than infinity.

Just as important, you'll need to take into account the diameter of the rear cell when choosing a lens--not all, especially "fast" wide angle lenses, will fit. (This link has some good info:
http://www.kenko-pi.co.jp/horseman/e/lens_list.html)

At any rate, I'm sure more experienced LF members will be along to give advice as well...good luck!

[Ig Nacio]

Hi,

Thank you for your messages : ) !!!

Yes, I think it would be good to try the lower ISOs at 100 and 125 ISO.
The resolution should be much better!

Yes, either the FA or HF would be good for me! I am not too sure
how much disadvantageous would be to use a 45HD compared to
the other models.

I just hope to buy it in good shape at a price that is not so bad either.

Thank you again, kind regards,

Ig

P.S. I wonder if in this forum people also sell some of their equipment.

[Louis Pacilla]

P.S. I wonder if in this forum people also sell some of their equipment.

Hey Ig

You should have access to an area of the forum that has a For Sell/For Trade" section w/ access is available after being a member for 30 days. If your not seeing this section of the forum try logging out and then back in again and if that doesn't work contact the Moderators and they'll set your access.

[d.s.]

I have the 45FA that I bought new about 18 years ago and still use it sometimes. I like it's robust construction, ease of setup and use. It's small and very well made. The longest lens I've used is a 180mm, and widest angle I've used is 75mm f/6.8, both with no problems.
More info on this camera cane be found here: https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?62633-Horseman-FA45-specifications

[ic-racer]

The Horseman FA is a special lightweight field camera with many hard to find accessories. You might be better with a monorail camera for portraits.
This is a 210mm focused in the distance. You will probably need more extension for portraits.
187295

[B.S.Kumar]

I regularly sell Horseman field cameras. They are fine cameras, with great build quality. They are lighter than other makes, and have a smaller volume. The limiting factors are the bellows draw and the 80mm lens board size. Minimum extension is 60mm and maximum is ~270mm. Using a 65mm lens is doable, but movements are difficult. Mounting a large and heavy 240mm plasmat lens in a Copal 3 shutter is not easy, given the small size of the lens board. However, you can use lightweight telephoto type lenses up to 400mm without any problems, since these are generally mounted in Copal 1 shutters. Horseman also made special lens boards for these lenses.

Wista or Toyo cameras are more versatile.

Kumar

[emax]

Joined.

[Ig Nacio]

Hi guys,

Thank you for your messages : ) !!!

@JMontague
Yes, I would try Ilford FP4. I think I find its hues
at the moment more interesting than Delta 100.
Perhaps to each format its own. The time I shot
the most B&W, (that also wasn't a lot), was when
I shot 35 mm. I don't know if I am 'translating'
correctly, but FP4 appeals now more to me than
the Delta 100 that I once used. The same goes
for HP4, (with 400 ISO). Looking at photos on
the internet FP4 and HP5 have an interesting
exposure lattitude. This by looking at results
compared to its own Ilford counterparts. I tried
Tri-X and T-Max and they are not so much my
cup of tea at the moment. Gerat films, though.
A great Kodak B&W film, was Kodak Veripan or
Verichrome Pan. It was one of their 'Pan' film that was
also very inexpensive compared to the other Kodak
B&W counterparts. I was able to get a couple
medium format rolls and then my photo store
didn't get anymore of this film. I used a Yashicamat
124 and printed the pics on Ilford baryte based
paper and they looked very good! Sheet film
of this film was also sold at my photo store.

Is Arista the Forte brand film of years ago?
Bergger looks very creamy to me. Foma looks
interesting too, but perhaps I am pretty much
'married' to Ilford for the near future.

Would you guys like to see some nice B&W. Take a
peek inside. You may like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvPkDdFeTk8
Have you seen it?


@CreationBear
Yes, on the long end I would be happy to settle for 210 mm.,
240 mm. as a maximum.

Actually, just like in 35 mm. (or medium format), for me
it is helpful to shoot the following focal lengths:
21, or wider, when possible, to 16 mm.; 24, 40 to 45, (not 50),
and 60 to 70 mm.

I may start with just one lens, either a 135 mm or
another lens with focal lens between 180 and 240 mm.


@LouisPacilla
I will ask because I'm not so new here ; ) !!!
Some years ago, I signed up but after a few
months, understandably, as I didn't have a
LF camera, I slowly frecuented less and less
this group. Hopefully, I'll be able to leave a
message soon in there.


@d.s.
That is interesting. I had no given it much thought to the
180 mm. for LF. It is the equivalent to 60 mm. in 35 mm.
isn't? I'll check out pictures done with that focal length.
On the other hand, I can think of using the 75 mm.
for low-rise architecture, of buildings no taller than five
storeys high, and for group portraits. Would one be better
off with a 90 mm. for group portraits, in 35 mm. a 35 mm.
lens may be good enough.
It is nice to read that it has already been with you for
eighteen years.


@ic-racer
I find interesting that the camera is very portable or more portable
than most cameras. The monorail cameras I have seen
are heavy. I saw a light monorail camera on the internet, but it
may be cost prohibiting for me. The brand name is Arca Swiss.
What accesories with the Horseman are hard to come by?
As a first camera for me is quite tempting, but I have to be
open to other options. The Wista appealed to me at first,
but then I discovered that it can up to three or four pounds heavier
than the Horseman. At the closest I'll be doing some neck and
head portraits at a distance of some seven to ten feet,
(two to three meters), away from the subject. Would a 210 mm.
be ok or is it more like 240 mm. to do that? Probably,
with those focal lengths one only gets from the chest up
at seven to ten feet away.


@B.S. Kummar
Do you know of a lonely and lovely Horseman 45FA/HF?

@emax
Thank you for joining the conversation!


Looking forward to more of your thoughts and comments!!!

Thank you again, kind regards,

Ignacio : ) !!!

[CreationBear]

[QUOTE=Ig Nacio;1482006]
I may start with just one lens, either a 135 mm or
another lens with focal lens between 180 and 240 mm.
[\QUOTE]

A couple of thoughts about lenses--if you're looking for a 135mm for a Horseman, the classic choice seems to be the Apo-Sironar N 135mm F5.6, since it can be left mounted when the camera is folded-up. (It's also a great, tiny, lens--though using filters with it can be a pain.)

Another thing to note is that a head-and-shoulders portrait with a longer lens might cause you to run out of bellows--for that reason, a telephoto lens (I've got a Schneider 270/5.5 Tele Arton) might be a better option. I would probably make a very specific query here at LF to see if any Horseman owners can give you feedback before I bought a lens on the long end.

[andrewch59]

I have the Horseman 45-FA, very solid camera, my favourite landscape lens was the Horseman LF 210mm, good quality lens at a decent price. I also used the nikkon 90mm f8, but swing , tilt and rise were tight, but doable. The screen is nice and bright too. A bit fiddly with rear tilt as the rear extension uses four small posts which slide out for swing and tilt adjustment. Limited on lens choice, but I only ever needed those two lenses.

[B.S.Kumar]

Here is a list of lenses that will and will not work with the Horseman 4x5 field cameras.
http://www.kenko-pi.co.jp/horseman/e/lens_list.pdf

Kumar

[andrewch59]

Great reference material Kumar, thankyou

[ic-racer]

What accesories with the Horseman are hard to come by?

As an example, the optical finder (I'm still looking), the extension back and the correct Topcor 90mm f5.6 lens that fits in the front standard hole
The zoom finder is of special note as I can't say I have ever seen one for sale. Maybe it was a Japanese market only item.

187357

187358
187366

[Ig Nacio]

Hi,

Thank you for your messages : ) !!!

@CreationBear
Yes, I think I would start by that 135 mm.
focal length. To use a lens like the 270 mm.
that you mention an extension may be
needed, isn't?


@Andrewch59
Yes, as CreationBear and other members
mention, with this camera not all lenses
will do. I wonder who manufactured for
Horseman the large format lenses?


@jmontague
Thank you for your compliment and recommendation to
do business with B.S. Kummar. I was able to read it
before it was erased, but I had not had a chance to
repply to you guys earlier.


@B.S. Kumar
Thank you for your message. I'll be sending you an
e-mail very soon!


@B.S. Kumar
Thank you for the lens list!
I found interesting that some of these lenses are as
luminous as f/4


@ic-racer
Yes, I see what you mean! I imagine, for example,
that the extension back allows for the use of any
long lens. It is not so enjoyable if one does not find
one. It is not fun if one is looking for an accesory
and it may not be available.

Thank you again for your messages : ) !!!

Kind regards,

Ignacio

[rgeorge911]

I use a Horseman FA, and like it very much. I have several lenses, from a 75mm Fuji to a 300mm Fuji T (telephoto). Those both work fine, but I usually have to drop the bed with the 75. My standard lens is a Rodenstock 135 APO Sironar-N, which will actually fit inside the case when the camera folds up; most lenses won’t fit. I also have a Rodenstock 210mm MC, which works fine on the FA and makes lovely images. Yes, the lens selection is limited due to size, but the FA is one classy, compact 4x5, in my opinion.

[john biskupski]

The little 45FA is real neat if you need compactness and simplicity. The camera also has useful accessories like the quick fit hood and screen to help speed set up. And as stated above, it’s a classy little metal camera. It’s limitations don’t suit everyone, but it makes a lightweight package to lug around. A little wooden Wista 45 isn’t much bigger but has more flexibility, movements, bellows, lens boards. But that usually results in you heaving more lenses around. When I could, I liked taking the 45FA, or a Speedgraphic, for the compactness.

[Tin Can]

B&H is a good source for Horseman data and pics.

They maintain a deep repository of out of production gear data, you need to search for it outside their current sales website.

I have a lot of what is on this page. http://www.bnphoto.org/bnphoto/LFN/CamProf_Horseman1.htm

Oren Grad also knows a lot about Horseman.

[Jim Jones]

. . . I have seen beautiful pictures of LF 4x5
portraits. . . .

Most of those beautiful portraits could have been taken by the same photographer with the same lens and film with almost any of the cameras mentioned above. More important than brand or appearance are accommodating all the lenses that one expects to use, stability, weight, cost, type of lens board, and convenience of controls. A photographer's first view camera may be more valuable as a learning tool than as a lifetime investment. Many of us have eventually owned a variety of view cameras over many years. Perhaps most important than the camera is the right choice of lens. Some 135mm lenses were designed for good performance on press cameras, and have inadequate coverage for full versatility on a view camera. Other lenses have poor bokeh for portraits captured with shallow depth-of-field. Kumar's list in post #13 of newer lenses that may not be suitable is a valuable resource, but cannot include the endless number of older lenses. Older lenses may also be unusable with electronic flash. Many lenses are too large to permit a camera to close with the lens mounted, sometimes a nuisance. A back that accommodates both portrait and landscape format on a view camera is valuable. A universal back such as the Graflok is sometimes useful. Buying a suitable combination of camera and lens is often less expensive than buying both separately.

[andrewch59]

As an example, the optical finder (I'm still looking), the extension back and the correct Topcor 90mm f5.6 lens that fits in the front standard hole
The zoom finder is of special note as I can't say I have ever seen one for sale. Maybe it was a Japanese market only item.

187357

187358
187366

The Universal Zoom Finder is not very accurate as a composing frame for the different focal lengths, mine stays in a drawer. The extension bellows however, are a very good item to have, tucks away nicely in my backpack, as the posts come in sections and can be unscrewed. I bought mine recently off ebay very cheaply it was missing a knob. Be aware that using a copal 1 or larger shutter will require an extension lens board of about 12mm, or the shutter wont fit due to the front standard uprights hitting the shutter.
I have a few 4x5, but always go back to the trusty horseman, I have also found that the fresnel on the horseman is very good, possibly not quite as bright as the maxwell, but I can focus a lot easier with the horseman.

[Roberto Nania]

Hello,

I'm resuming the thread to ask if a Symmar-S 5.6/150 would fit inside the camera when folded-up.

Thank you!

[CreationBear]

Symmar-S 5.6/150 would fit inside the camera when folded-up.

I would doubt that would be the case--you'd probably be best off looking for lenses with filter rings 41.5mm (like the Sironar N 135/5.6 for instance) or smaller. The G-claron 150/9 might be your best bet in that focal length.

[Armin Seeholzer]

I would doubt that would be the case--you'd probably be best off looking for lenses with filter rings 41.5mm (like the Sironar N 135/5.6 for instance) or smaller. The G-claron 150/9 might be your best bet in that focal length.

I have the Horseman HF for handy field, it is a superb camera. But the small lensboard is a bit of a problem and for on the way a future, because it need not much space. But if I would like to do portraits then it would not be my first camera. A Linhof Technika or even a Sinar F would be the better choice in my opinion.
I will not say it would'nt work but its easier with cameras with bigger lensboards and longer bellows draw. If I use my HF for portraits then I use a Schneider Tele Arton 270mm, for Landscape I use most of the time at the long end a APO Ronar 300mm with a Extention board.
It can be done, but with reduced possibilitis.

[B.S.Kumar]

Hello,

I'm resuming the thread to ask if a Symmar-S 5.6/150 would fit inside the camera when folded-up.

Thank you!

I can confirm that the Symmar-S will not fit into a Horseman HF camera when it is folded up. The older single-coated Fujinon 150mm f/6.3 and f/5.6 lenses will fit, as will the 125 and 135mm lenses of the same series and possibly the Fujinon A 180mm f/9 lens. Send me a PM.

Kumar

[Roberto Nania]

Thank you very much gents.

[Daniel Casper Lohenstein]

Hello,

I'm resuming the thread to ask if a Symmar-S 5.6/150 would fit inside the camera when folded-up.

Thank you!

Hello Roberto, hello to everybody else,

I answer a little longer now, maybe this will be useful for someone ...

After I sold a big bunch of photo equipment and kept only two Linhof Technikas, I thought about how to get the functionality of the Technikas with a lighter, smaller, newer camera.

The Horseman 45FA seems to me to do exactly what a Technika 4 does. But it is 1kg lighter, 2cm more compact, with larger dials and built-in 65mm wide angle focusing ability. For less money.

Some flaws and their solution:

1. The boards are too small for Copal 3 - there are good lenses with Copal 0 and Copal 1.

2. The base of the barrel is too narrow for filter threads larger than 45 - Fuji has lenses with filter thread of 46mm. I you want to use 46mm filter threaded lenses, you may have to extend the inside of the focusing slider with a metal file, about 1mm, symmetrical, on each side, crescent-shaped, if you use longer lenses like the a Fuji Fujinon A 9/180. I also use a Fuji Fujinon NW 5.6/125, a Fuji Fujinon NW 5.6/105, a Schneider-Kreuznach G-Claron 9/210 (49mm). You can also mount a Fuji Fujinon W S 5.6/135 or a Schneider-Kreuznach G-Claron 9/150, a Rodenstock Geronar 6.3/150 etc.

3. The bellows extension is only about 270 cm - for 300mm focal length I use Fujinon T 8/300 on a flat board, perhaps I could use a Fuji Fujinon T 8/400 with an extended lens board?

4. The absence of a rotating back is annoying when it rains or is dusty - use an umbrella that is attached on the tripod (Manfrotto clamp). Move the camera 90° - then you will have more rise, fall and swing.

5. The bellows is only glued on the back and very thin, it is always defective on pre-owned units - the bellows must be replaced. As always we tend to install too long bellows. Less is more: if the bellows is too long when compressed, there is less space for the lens in the camera. You almost always have to change the bellows. The small size of the bellows makes them thin. The compressed thin bellows deforms in the narrow camera. Deformed bellows like to hang in the picture ... Sellers advertise their cameras on Ebay with the words "mint", "excellent", "near mint" etc., but this is not true. You have to repair. And you also have to negotiate afterwards. 600 USD is too much for a 45FA with defective bellows. You have to pay 150-200 USD for a new bellows, for shipping and import taxes etc. 300 USD for a Horseman 45FA/45HD/45HF with defective bellows is a reasonable price. For some sellers this obviously seems to be part of the business: selling too expensive and then renegotiating and offering partial refund. YMMV.

6. The movements are somewhat limited - if you turn the camera 90°, you have much more rise, fall and swing than if you let it stand upright. And there is the technical back part, too.

7. It is not possible to put the focusing slider back to the housing to prevent damaging of the front standard base - if you unscrew the front stop of the slider, you can focus very well with a 65mm lens like the Fuji Fujinon SWD 5.6/65, because the slider can be pushed back to the housing. The front standard is then completely on the slider, and you even have room to make adjustments within the image circle with the technical back. The possibility to use this 65mm lens on a flat lens board is the absolute killer criterion compared to the Technikas before the Master Technika 3000. The Fujinon SWD 65 did not fit into the Linhof wide angle focusing device! The rear diameter was 1mm too great.

8. Whereas it is not possible to do macros in the field with a Schneider-Kreuznach G-Claron 9/210 or an Rodenstock Apo-Ronar 9/300 - that's why I keep the Technikas. Furthermore the Technika is a financial investment. They become more and more expensive. Like gold.

I think, the Horsemans are field cameras, not macro or portrait or studio cameras. They have been optimized to follow a specific purpose, like so many technology that comes from Japan: landscape photography. Here you need lightweight and small lenses - the Fujinons with 46mm filter thread.

OK, now I have answered a bit too detailed, but maybe someone can do something with my observations.

As others mentioned before, a Symmar-S does not fit into this wonderful camera. The front lens is too big. A Rodenstock Sironar N 5,6/135, whose small front lens certainly fits into the camera, delivers almost even better values than a Symmar S.

Good luck

Tschau zäme

[thorirv]

Hello Roberto, hello to everybody else,

[..]

5. The bellows is only glued on the back and very thin, it is always defective on pre-owned units - the bellows must be replaced. As always we tend to install too long bellows. Less is more: if the bellows is too long when compressed, there is less space for the lens in the camera. You almost always have to change the bellows. The small size of the bellows makes them thin. The compressed thin bellows deforms in the narrow camera. Deformed bellows like to hang in the picture ... Sellers advertise their cameras on Ebay with the words "mint", "excellent", "near mint" etc., but this is not true. You have to repair. And you also have to negotiate afterwards. 600 USD is too much for a 45FA with defective bellows. You have to pay 150-200 USD for a new bellows, for shipping and import taxes etc. 300 USD for a Horseman 45FA/45HD/45HF with defective bellows is a reasonable price. For some sellers this obviously seems to be part of the business: selling too expensive and then renegotiating and offering partial refund. YMMV.

[..]

Good luck

Tschau zäme

-
Daniel Casper Lohenstein,

I have an FA with a deformed bellows, really useful info here.
Given that your reply is not that old (well, relatively), can you share wich repair shop you used for replacement and purchase of a new one? (assuming you did replace yours)

Judging by your website you're in Europe, so am I, so a European repair shop is preferable.

Regards, Thorir

[Daniel Casper Lohenstein]

-
Daniel Casper Lohenstein,

I have an FA with a deformed bellows, really useful info here.
Given that your reply is not that old (well, relatively), can you share wich repair shop you used for replacement and purchase of a new one? (assuming you did replace yours)

Judging by your website you're in Europe, so am I, so a European repair shop is preferable.

Regards, Thorir


custombellows, always custombellows: http://www.custombellows.co.uk/

I doctored the bellows into the camera by myself.

[thorirv]

custombellows, always custombellows: http://www.custombellows.co.uk/

I doctored the bellows into the camera by myself.

Thanks a lot! (not that I'm too keen on the idea on doctoring it myself, but.. : )

Regards, Th

[Daniel Casper Lohenstein]

Thanks a lot! (not that I'm too keen on the idea on doctoring it myself, but.. : )

Regards, Th

This is how you get to really know and appreciate your camera ...

Maybe you can send the camera to custombellows?

[Richard Wasserman]

This is how you get to really know and appreciate your camera ...

Maybe you can send the camera to custombellows?

I had a Horseman FA that needed a new bellows. I contacted Custom Bellows who were not able to make one so I bought a Chinese bellows on Ebay and it worked out very well.

[ic-racer]

I almost bought the Chinese bellows but the picture looks like the pleats are much bigger than the original. Is this true?