Waterhouse Stop Fabrication Alternatives in 2019?

[Jay Decker]

With all the laser cutter, CNC mill, and 3D printing technology available now, is there a new “Easy Button” way to get a set of Waterhouse stops made even easier and cheaper?

Have that funny predicament where you “kind of” like a lens. You’d like to try it with some stops to figure out if it merits joining your regular posse of lenses if you had a set of stops for it. But you aren’t committed enough to that lens to pay SK Grimes for a set of stops or to spend the time to make your own stops.

[Tin Can]

I have many round rule dies from 1/4 to 3” I tap with a hammer and cut cardboard gaskets which are just holes.

Find local rule die users. Leigh perhaps.

I’m not selling mine.

[karl french]

Black card stock, circle cutter & a ruler. Just that easy.

[Steven Tribe]

Black card stock, circle cutter & a ruler. Just that easy.

Indeed!
It does make sense to make a few out of brass - say for F.4 on a Dallmeyer F.3.2, where the side sections would be rather thin (bendable!). I have bought a couple of lenses with full sets of orignal WHS, where there were additional sets in black card - for use!

[goamules]

2019? You drive your hovercar over to the Amazon Distribution Center, and buy a ring laser gyroscopically stabilized plasma cutter. You know....to cut a hole in a thin piece of cardboard....

[Jay Decker]

Black card stock, circle cutter & a ruler. Just that easy.

Hmmm... maybe I don't have the right tool that makes it easy to cut a nice circle. What are you using for a circle cutter that can cut through card stock?

[Jim Jones]

Perhaps the lead in a draftsman's compass could be replaced by a cutting tool. Also, an adjustable hole cutter or a step drill bit in a good drill press should cut clean holes in card stock or brass clamped between thin sheets of scrap plywood.

[chassis]

Punches similar to this with either cardstock or shim stock.

https://www.etsy.com/listing/654902739/germany-made-high-speed-steel-leather

[ic-racer]

https://www.sculpteo.com/en/

[karl french]

Just something I picked at Dick Blick's Art Supply. Basically a compass with a x-acto knife blade. Yes, the largest stops are delicate if you make them with paper rather than brass, but paper stops aren't meant to last forever. A stop gap measure to get you using the lens while you work on finding or making proper metal stops.

[Jay Decker]

https://www.sculpteo.com/en/

This is the kind of service that I was hoping someone else had already tried, because I don't want to buy my own "ring laser gyroscopically stabilized plasma cutter"!

Have you used their laser cutting service to cut waterhouse stops or any other components? If so, what material did you choose and how did it come out?

[Jac@stafford.net]

Have you used their laser cutting service to cut waterhouse stops or any other components? If so, what material did you choose and how did it come out?

The obstacle for such services to me is that I must supply a file that can only be created with special software and I'm just no good with CAD unless it is as simple as e-machine shop (https://www.emachineshop.com/), which I did use when I had a PC.

So you are not alone!

[domaz]

The obstacle for such services to me is that I must supply a file that can only be created with special software and I'm just no good with CAD unless it is as simple as e-machine shop (https://www.emachineshop.com/), which I did use when I had a PC.

So you are not alone!

This site (https://metalscut4u.com/) has an online tool for designing your laser cuts, I've used them to cut aluminum lens board and they did a great job. The problem is I imagine is either they don't cut in the right thickness (too thick/too thin) or the cuts you need to do aperture blades are just to small for them to support.

[Jay Decker]

The problem is I imagine is either they don't cut in the right thickness (too thick/too thin) or the cuts you need to do aperture blades are just to small for them to support.

One would tend to think that laser cutters or CNC Routers who can cut 1 or 2mm thick metal (aluminum or steel) should be able to readily do the work. Particularly for my lens, which has a barrel diameter of about 3 inches, which to get stops from f/8 to f/45, the stop holes would range from 2-3/16 to 3/8 inch in diameter.

Expected that someone would have already blazed this trail and could refer us to someone who we could order stops from if we provided them with a modest amount of basic information, e.g., something less than CAD or dimensional vector files. It might appear that that technological promise is still there on the horizon.

[ic-racer]

I was thinking of have Sculpteo do a 3d printing with opaque material. Free 3d software here:https://www.blender.org

If the dimensions are correct on the 3d printed ones, you can use that as a template the make the final one out of brass. Otherwise re-do it and print up another set through Scuppteo. This way you only have to make the brass ones once.

[Tin Can]

Tracy Storer of Mammoth camera did offer to make WHS a few years ago.

http://www.mammothcamera.com/mammothcameracompany.html

[Steven Tribe]

Dare I admit that I use nail scissors for the round hole? And turn the jagged edge into a perfect circle using a round object (from finger size to pencil size) covered with fine sandpaper?

[goamules]

...Expected that someone would have already blazed this trail and could refer us to someone who we could order stops from if we provided them with a modest amount of basic information, e.g., something less than CAD or dimensional vector files. It might appear that that technological promise is still there on the horizon.

My wife has a "cricket" cutter for craftwork. It's like a mini CNC cutting tool. I'm sure that would work. The issue is that cutting different sized holes in thin, soft materials is such an easy task, no one has bothered to list all the methods. But humans have been cutting holes since pre-historic times. You need to think outside the camera box. Ask a scrapbook housewife, a paste-up artist, or someone in other roles.

Most photographers that shoot old brass lenses either have the stops, ignore that they don't, make them somehow, or pay big bucks for an "expert" like Grimes to punch holes in plastic. The 4 people on the planet reading this thread have already answered.

Or simply google "how to cut a hole in cardboard" and find your own solution, like we all did.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Bon-Tool-16-in-Cast-Aluminum-Circle-Cutter-15-118/304215396?MERCH=REC-_-PIPHorizontal2_rr-_-302598702-_-304215396-_-N

[Jay Decker]

... The issue is that cutting different sized holes in thin, soft materials is such an easy task, no one has bothered to list all the methods...

The original question was not about how to cut holes in thin, soft material to make temporary stops. The intent was to findout if and how we can access technology services to go straight to permanent metal stops directly, inexpensively and without spending time (or purchasing tooling) to make them. What think I’ve heard so far is no one here has tried a direct technological based solution yet and folks are trying to kindly point me down the well trodden path of cutting stops out of soft material. And, this is to be expected. However, sometimes if you ask the question right you’ll find that one voice says, “Yeah, I’ve done that and here’s how I did it...”, and then the question is changed forevermore...

[Tin Can]

Rule Dies will cut right through soft brass using an Arbor press or Hydraulic press with larger diameters

My hammer and punch will also work on metal, did it for decades

OP never mentioned size

I know any soft material will scrape on WHS slots over time leaving 'dust' and debris inside the lens

Here's a housewife youtube cutting metal in her kitchen Die Cut Metal.wmv (https://youtu.be/ms1xD1hZ0Gs)

ymmv

[Greg]

See if there are any model RR groups or clubs in your area. Many of have and use something like a Silhouette CAMEO 3 (Ultimate DYI Cutting Machine) to cut parts for their model buildings. I've bartered photographing their model train setup for some minor machining in the past. Also consider using thin black plastic instead of metal... lot easier to cut and in either case you will be most likely spraying the Waterhouse stops flat black.

[Jac@stafford.net]

Tracy Storer has WHS all figured out and he has made several sets.
See this post. (https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?119333-new-Waterhouse-stops-for-old-lenses&p=1206646&viewfull=1#post1206646)

[NHE]

If anyone would like to try sculpteo or one of the other services, I would be able to provide a model with the correct file types. All I need is a basic drawing with some dimensions.

[Soomuu]

Just thought i'd chime in for anyone looking to make their own Waterhouse stops without access to a machine like a CNC. For mine I used black Polystyrene sheets which can be found online or at a local hobby shop. They are used in model making and come in different sizes and thicknesses.
All you'll need is a pencil, ruler, exacto blade & a compass for making those perfect circles.
Measure out your dimensions, score the plastic and snap or cut. If I remember, I scored the circles and then cut with a sharp knife. Edges can be sanded afterwards.

Gary

[Jac@stafford.net]

Many +++ to Soomuu.

I think our OP would like something in which he could input focal length, diameter of WH position and come up with a ready-made CNC file to send to one of the many shops who would make them. (I would choose Delrin as the material.)

The significant downside of such is that not many people have the instrument or expertise to accurately measure. That's the only thing keeping me from offering such a service.

[Jay Decker]

... I think our OP would like something in which he could input focal length, diameter of WH position and come up with a ready-made CNC file to send to one of the many shops who would make them. (I would choose Delrin as the material.)...

About 5 or 6 dial caliper measurements should provide the necessary input data to generate a CAD file that can be laser cut. My intent is to pursue two or three alternatives and a couple folks have volunteered to help. In a few weeks, we should know if there is a relatively turnkey solution that is ready for prime time... if there is, the results and the how you can do too will be shared so that it might be an option for you in the future.

[coisasdavida]

I have used cardstock to make mine.
I use two different tools to cut the holes

This one from OLFA: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMTgmBRWhXw

And something like this for the smaller ones: https://www.lojadomecanico.com.br/produto/101203/2/585/alicate-vazador-9-pol-eda-3eg

[Tin Can]

Yes!

I forgot that I saw a lot of ways to make holes at JoAnn's Fabrics who has stores everywhere in USA. https://www.joann.com/ They stock Fiskars.

http://www2.fiskars.com/Products/Crafting-and-Sewing/Punches has all kinds of great tools. Even a rotating matte board!

Just for reference as OP may have a way forward already.



I have used cardstock to make mine.
I use two different tools to cut the holes

This one from OLFA: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMTgmBRWhXw

And something like this for the smaller ones: https://www.lojadomecanico.com.br/produto/101203/2/585/alicate-vazador-9-pol-eda-3eg

[Soomuu]

I think our OP would like something in which he could input focal length, diameter of WH position and come up with a ready-made CNC file to send to one of the many shops who would make them. (I would choose Delrin as the material.)



Ah yes, I just reread the OP's post that they did not want to pay someone to make nor spend the time to make their own. This is just my solution to my own lens that maybe some may find useful. I've made Waterhouse stops before using card stock but prefer this material to paper. These really did not take much effort or time and I quite enjoyed making them.

[Jay Decker]

Ah yes, I just reread the OP's post that they did not want to pay someone to make nor spend the time to make their own.

Close. There are nuances that I haven’t communicated well. First, I am willing to pay. And, I prefer to pay get a set of permanent stops made than spend the time to make a set of temporary stops. Regarding my time, the older I get, the more critical I am about what I spend time on, i.e., I’d rather spend more time photographing, printing and doing other creative things. I also don’t like to spend time to do things twice.

The nuance is that I’m looking for a more affordable set of permanent stops that will do the job, but don’t have to be really high quality, i.e., think Chevrolet instead of Mercedes-Benz. Why? There are two reasons. First, I have several lenses that need stops and I haven’t decided whether to keep those lenses yet. And, I’d prefer not spend the amount of money necessary to have a really nice set of permanent brass stops made for a lens - particularly a lens that I need to shoot with stops in order to decide whether I’m going to keep the lens and use it for the next 20 years. Additionally, as long as the stops work, I’d be happy using a set of Delrin (or some other material) stops for the rest of my LF career. And, if I end up deciding to sell the lens, the stops should be valued added to a purchaser.

Second, is my mentality. I while I love traditional large format photography and alternative (historical) photographic printing, I am just fine with laser cutting and CNC machining technology helping make the replacement bits and pieces to keep my antique cameras and lens going and doing so most affordably.

[Jac@stafford.net]

Jay has made his goal clear but for one factoid: How much would he be willing to pay for WH stops?
He values his time, and so do the makers.

[Tin Can]

3 critters

Kidding Jay!

That's between the principles


Jay has made his goal clear but for one factoid: How much would he be willing to pay for WH stops?
He values his time, and so do the makers.

[Jac@stafford.net]

OK, last gasp. The OP could place an aperture of whatever mechanism at the very front of his lens. Too simple? For a rough-enough comparison, I think it is adequate and dirt cheap

[Soomuu]

Close. There are nuances that I haven’t communicated well. First, I am willing to pay. And, I prefer to pay get a set of permanent stops made than spend the time to make a set of temporary stops. Regarding my time, the older I get, the more critical I am about what I spend time on, i.e., I’d rather spend more time photographing, printing and doing other creative things. I also don’t like to spend time to do things twice.

The nuance is that I’m looking for a more affordable set of permanent stops that will do the job, but don’t have to be really high quality, i.e., think Chevrolet instead of Mercedes-Benz. Why? There are two reasons. First, I have several lenses that need stops and I haven’t decided whether to keep those lenses yet. And, I’d prefer not spend the amount of money necessary to have a really nice set of permanent brass stops made for a lens - particularly a lens that I need to shoot with stops in order to decide whether I’m going to keep the lens and use it for the next 20 years. Additionally, as long as the stops work, I’d be happy using a set of Delrin (or some other material) stops for the rest of my LF career. And, if I end up deciding to sell the lens, the stops should be valued added to a purchaser.

Second, is my mentality. I while I love traditional large format photography and alternative (historical) photographic printing, I am just fine with laser cutting and CNC machining technology helping make the replacement bits and pieces to keep my antique cameras and lens going and doing so most affordably.

Understood.

I too value my time and would also rather spend my time photographing, in the darkroom printing or doing something creative like yourself. When I made these stops I did not look at them as a waste of my time. I'm a hands on person and get satisfaction out of making and creating things by hand. These fall into that category. The stops I have made are not a temporary solution but rather a permanent alternative solution so I could stop down my lens if need be. They were cheap to make, they feel good and they serve their purpose.

I don't have any issues with things being made by CNC or machines either. I just don't have convenient access to one and it was much easier for me to make it by hand.

All in all, we should use which ever materials and methods that we feel are most suited to our wants and needs. This was just my way of making Waterhouse stops and I hope someone might find it useful.

[Jay Decker]

... How much would he be willing to pay for WH stops? ...

1. Didn’t start with a specific objective or expectation, just a gut feeling that newer technology should have proliferated enough to create lower cost alternatives for simple parts, like WHSs.

2. The first provider I contacted indicated that they should be able to provide Delrin WHSs on a turnkey basis for about half of what a set of high quality of brass stops would cost. So, I was looking at having to spend $1,000 - $1,200 for multiple sets of quality brass stops for my lenses. So, out of the box it is looking more like $500 to $600 for made to order Delrin stops for the same lenses - that works for me. But...

3. It appears that there is a spectrum of entry points to access laser cutting services, including electronic submital of a laser cutting job file where the parts are cut and mailed to you. I don’t know enough about this technology yet to know if some kind of software template could readily be created that would allow a regular person, not in the CNC world, to directly order WHSs with just a handful of measurements. I’m going to look into it with some help of folks that know that world.

[blue4130]

This would be a really easy thing to make in Fusion 360 and outsourced to any number of Chinese laser cutting factories. I have had 4 flat lens boards and two quite intricate panels (with text) cut and each one was less than $10 USD.

Fusion 360 is free for most applications and something like a waterhouse stop would take all of 5 minutes to draw.

[unimach]

1. Didn’t start with a specific objective or expectation, just a gut feeling that newer technology should have proliferated enough to create lower cost alternatives for simple parts, like WHSs.

2. The first provider I contacted indicated that they should be able to provide Delrin WHSs on a turnkey basis for about half of what a set of high quality of brass stops would cost. So, I was looking at having to spend $1,000 - $1,200 for multiple sets of quality brass stops for my lenses. So, out of the box it is looking more like $500 to $600 for made to order Delrin stops for the same lenses - that works for me. But...

3. It appears that there is a spectrum of entry points to access laser cutting services, including electronic submital of a laser cutting job file where the parts are cut and mailed to you. I don’t know enough about this technology yet to know if some kind of software template could readily be created that would allow a regular person, not in the CNC world, to directly order WHSs with just a handful of measurements. I’m going to look into it with some help of folks that know that world.

I know this is an old thread, but I felt I needed to chime in. I am a machinist by trade and I do a good bit of work locally for some large format photographers. I've made and modified lens flanges, lens boards, misc. hardware and even a modernized mount for an old camera to mount to a modern tripod. When dealing with laser cutting services, or any modern machine shop for that matter, understand that they make their money in repeat business. That is to say they are in the business of manufacturing things and the idea is the more pieces they produce the more money they make. In my opinion, $500 for delrin waterhouse stops is ridiculous money. $500 is outrageous for brass as a matter of fact. For example, I can purchase brass sheet in .125" thickness by 3" width by 12" length for $25 that should produce at least 4 stops based on the stops I've worked with in the past. Delrin on the other hand at the same thickness comes in a 12"x12" sheet for approximately half of the cost of brass.

I'm sure that's not a full spectrum of stop sizes, but enough to give me a good idea. Earlier in this thread it was mentioned that time is valuable, and mine is too, but is it really $475 for about 3 hours of work. There are other things to consider, but I'd say no.

To manufacture stops, I need 5 dimensions and a sketch. Length, Width, Thickness, Hole Size, and Center of Hole. The sketch of course to point out details like the exact shape and finger grab details.

All of the stops I've worked with in the past the hole was centered, but I could see where the stop geometry could be such that a hole would be not centered.

So here are my thoughts. I have the equipment and can accurately measure to .0001" or .00254mm. I understand the math involved in determining hole sizes for a desired stop size, but without the lens for accurate measurement, I could not guarantee that a given hole size is actually correct for a given f/N. Would anyone here be willing to assume that risk? If its incorrect, I've not only wasted my time, but yours as well and I've produced parts that are unusable. I'm sure that given a known stop for any given lens would make the calculation much less risky, even easy for that matter, but how many lenses come with no stops?

I could produce a set of stops, assuming 7 stops in total for approximatley $250-300, depending on size and material choice, plus material, plus shipping. These would be unfinished, so a coat of paint would be necessary to compete them. The question is, can anyone give me the 5 dimensions I would need accurately? I'm genuinely curious to know.

[Greg]

I had a 13” f/8.6 RECT R J BECK brass lens that I needed to make 6 brass waterhouse stops for.
Previously made a set of them out of black cardboard and they worked fine till they accidentally got wet.
So... Bought a sheet of brass off eBAY
Cut up the brass sheet into smaller rectangular pieces
Clamped the sheets together and drew on the top sheet an outline of the waterhouse stops.
Roughly cut the sheets (clamped together) with a Dremel.
Filed the edges of the waterhouse stops (still clamped together in a vise)
Unclamped them and smooth the edges with fine sandpaper
Drilled the holes for the 6 f/stops and smooth the edges of the holes
Spray painted both sides with flat black paint.
Labeled the waterhouse stops
Took a total of 3 short evenings work in my basement "workshop"
Q.E.D.

[goamules]

I know this is an old thread, but I felt I needed to chime in. I am a machinist by trade and I do a good bit of work locally for some large format photographers. I've made and modified lens flanges, lens boards, misc. hardware and even a modernized mount for an old camera to mount to a modern tripod. When dealing with laser cutting services, or any modern machine shop for that matter, understand that they make their money in repeat business. That is to say they are in the business of manufacturing things and the idea is the more pieces they produce the more money they make. In my opinion, $500 for delrin waterhouse stops is ridiculous money. $500 is outrageous for brass as a matter of fact. For example, I can purchase brass sheet in .125" thickness by 3" width by 12" length for $25 that should produce at least 4 stops based on the stops I've worked with in the past. Delrin on the other hand at the same thickness comes in a 12"x12" sheet for approximately half of the cost of brass.

I'm sure that's not a full spectrum of stop sizes, but enough to give me a good idea. Earlier in this thread it was mentioned that time is valuable, and mine is too, but is it really $475 for about 3 hours of work. There are other things to consider, but I'd say no.

To manufacture stops, I need 5 dimensions and a sketch. Length, Width, Thickness, Hole Size, and Center of Hole. The sketch of course to point out details like the exact shape and finger grab details.

All of the stops I've worked with in the past the hole was centered, but I could see where the stop geometry could be such that a hole would be not centered.

So here are my thoughts. I have the equipment and can accurately measure to .0001" or .00254mm. I understand the math involved in determining hole sizes for a desired stop size, but without the lens for accurate measurement, I could not guarantee that a given hole size is actually correct for a given f/N. Would anyone here be willing to assume that risk? If its incorrect, I've not only wasted my time, but yours as well and I've produced parts that are unusable. I'm sure that given a known stop for any given lens would make the calculation much less risky, even easy for that matter, but how many lenses come with no stops?

I could produce a set of stops, assuming 7 stops in total for approximatley $250-300, depending on size and material choice, plus material, plus shipping. These would be unfinished, so a coat of paint would be necessary to compete them. The question is, can anyone give me the 5 dimensions I would need accurately? I'm genuinely curious to know.

Good to know there is someone available, thanks for joining. Would you be able to make flanges accurately? We all need those, and the threads are all over the map and 100 years of different types.

[Jac@stafford.net]

Material for Waterhouse stops

Delrin - I am not sure that black Delrin is opaque enough for a Waterhouse stop. A 2mm thick sheet is not opaque to infrared, if that is important.

[DrTang]

I bought some thin brass at the hobby store.. took some tin snips and a file and created some crude-o stops that work just fine in like 15 minutes.. I only needed two f-stops though - f8 and F16.. so.. my big innovation was to make one long unit with a stop on either end

[Peter De Smidt]

I've made waterhouse stops using old darkslides for my Imagon. My library has a very easy to use CNC machine, a Carvey. It's free to use. I bet many of you have something similar nearby. Look for makerspaces. I bring my own bits, which are cheap and easy to buy.

[Jac@stafford.net]

A tip. If having someone fabricate stops using one of your existing stops, contact-print your stop for him. I use Cyanotype paper rinsed in water to clean it up.

Determining the appropriate diameter for apertures is pretty easy. It is not necessary to make conventional ƒ metrics, just holes proportionally larger/smaller. You can determine effective stop values. I can give the ratios.

[Tin Can]

Good tip Jac!

[unimach]

Good to know there is someone available, thanks for joining. Would you be able to make flanges accurately? We all need those, and the threads are all over the map and 100 years of different types.

Garrett,
I can, I've made many flanges, brass and aluminum mostly.

193947
193948

[unimach]

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but quick and dirty with minimal measuring for an f stop the math would be: focal length/diameter of hole = f/stop. So a 12" lens needs a 1.5" hole to get f/8.

When purchasing a lens, isn't the focal length known most of the time?

[unimach]

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but quick and dirty with minimal measuring for an f stop the math would be: focal length/diameter of hole = f/stop. So a 12" lens needs a 1.5" hole to get f/8.

When purchasing a lens, isn't the focal length known most of the time? So the only measuring left would be the stop dimensions?

[Jim Jones]

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but quick and dirty with minimal measuring for an f stop the math would be: focal length/diameter of hole = f/stop. So a 12" lens needs a 1.5" hole to get f/8.

When purchasing a lens, isn't the focal length known most of the time? So the only measuring left would be the stop dimensions?

The f/number is focal length/hole diameter as measured through the front elements of the lens.

[Steven Tribe]

.............When purchasing a lens, isn't the focal length known most of the time? So the only measuring left would be the stop dimensions?

Apart from some process lenses, the use of Waterhouse stops was unusual after 1900, as multi-bladed irises became reliable.
19th century makers were very slow to engrave lens data on their lenses. Even WHStops often had just a number rather than the effective F value. Early lenses, especialy Petzvals, had no information about focal lengths. A list of lens sizes and their respective was often listed in advertising, but this is not always helpful if the size is not is indicated on the lens!
Often we are reduced to measuring the diameter of the front lens (a popular extra data in manufacturers' lists!) or carrying out an approach to getting a measure of the real Focal length.

[Steven Tribe]

Good to know there is someone available, thanks for joining. Would you be able to make flanges accurately? We all need those, and the threads are all over the map and 100 years of different types.

what Garret said!

I often make "an alternative solution" when the flange/ring is absent. But need a "real" new flange sometimes.